55528 réponses à ce sujet

[dreamgazer]

byne wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

Now all I can think of is that fake PSA from Scrubs.

"It's fun, right? Wrong."

[byne]

UrgedDuke wrote...

I just wanted to digress for a moment and point out something that I noticed recently:
During the conversation with spacebieber he acknowledges the term "Reapers" which I found odd because the name "Reapers" was given to them by organics. Both Harby and Sovereign did not acknowledge the term "Reapers" because it is obviously not what they are actually called Reapers. It just seems odd that the stupid starbrat would acknowledge a name given to them by primitives. what do you guys think

To be fair, Harbinger sort of acknowledged the term Reapers.

Remember at the end of ME2?

Human. You've changed nothing. Your species has the attention of those infinitely your greater. That which you know as Reapers are your salvation through destruction.

[MegumiAzusa]

dreamgazer wrote...

UrgedDuke wrote...

I just wanted to digress for a moment and point out something that I noticed recently:
During the conversation with spacebieber he acknowledges the term "Reapers" which I found odd because the name "Reapers" was given to them by organics. Both Harby and Sovereign did not acknowledge the term "Reapers" because it is obviously not what they are actually called Reapers. It just seems odd that the stupid starbrat would acknowledge a name given to them by primitives. what do you guys think

Indeed, odd.  

I'd argue that the catalyst talking on Shepard's familiar terms is a way of manipulating the tone of the conversation to his devices, but an equal (and pretty strong) argument could be made to the opposite: that using common terminology is a way of making the conversation appear ... "benign", and on a comprehendable level with the organic in front of him/it.

Or if we go with the explanation that is even in the game: in the consensus you see Quarians, Shep: "Wasn't that footage from the past? Why are the quarians masked?" Legion: "They are viewed through your perception. You see them as you know them now. You process our memories by using your own. How many creators have you witnessed unmasked?"
The Guardian is a projection in your mind, like the Consensus. Therefor they only transport ideas, which will then map as words, meaning they transport the idea of the name, and Sheps mind then processes it and returns the word "Reaper".
This concept is established in Theory of Forms by Plato.

Modifié par MegumiAzusa, 28 mai 2012 - 06:13 .

[UrgedDuke]

byne wrote...

UrgedDuke wrote...

I just wanted to digress for a moment and point out something that I noticed recently:
During the conversation with spacebieber he acknowledges the term "Reapers" which I found odd because the name "Reapers" was given to them by organics. Both Harby and Sovereign did not acknowledge the term "Reapers" because it is obviously not what they are actually called Reapers. It just seems odd that the stupid starbrat would acknowledge a name given to them by primitives. what do you guys think

To be fair, Harbinger sort of acknowledged the term Reapers.

Remember at the end of ME2?

Human. You've changed nothing. Your species has the attention of those infinitely your greater. That which you know as Reapers are your salvation through destruction.

he didn't acknowledged the term completely he said "that which you know" showing that he doesn't accept the term, he just uses it so Shep can understand. It is simular to when legion renounces the name Sovereign because Sovereign's name was Nazzara or something

[MaximizedAction]

byne wrote...

To be fair, Harbinger sort of acknowledged the term Reapers.

Remember at the end of ME2?

Human. You've changed nothing. Your species has the attention of those infinitely your greater. That which you know as Reapers are your salvation through destruction.

That quote forshadows the words of Starbinger.

And I love how, no matter if you (a player / a resident of the galaxy in ME) accept the concept of indoctrination, once you accept this explaination from the Reapers as a motivation for you to give yourself in, and you would because you care for your friends and would like them to continue existing in some form, you're doing what the Reapers tell you to.

Before being confronted with the Reapers it was easy to speak of indoctrination, in ME3 that is not the case anymore. Everyone will eventually ask him or herself: what do I really believe?  And in an ideal scenario that would really be 'believe', because we are not able to check the real motivation, so it comes down to some sort of faith.

In the ME3 scenario we are lucky that (in retrospect) we are able to find holes in the logic in Starbinger's arguments, but if that were not possible, the final Destroy/Synthesis/Control choice would have been a true choice of faith, faith and trust in your moral concepts you find to be correct.

A true philosophical problem.

Modifié par MaximizedAction, 28 mai 2012 - 06:30 .

[StElmo]

What y'all gonna do if BioWare doesn't prove IT or similar?

[dreamgazer]

StElmo wrote...

What y'all gonna do if BioWare doesn't prove IT or similar?

This has already been discussed to death. 

[boeloe]

Well one thing I found odd about starbinger's little speech is that he refers to himself and the reapers as 'us'. "I know you have been thinking about destroying us".

[StElmo]

boeloe wrote...

Well one thing I found odd about starbinger's little speech is that he refers to himself and the reapers as 'us'. "I know you have been thinking about destroying us".

reaper consensus? doesn't make sense, all reapers are individual.

Maybe he is the first reaper?

Head reaper?

Dunno.

He's def a reaper.

[estebanus]

StElmo wrote...

What y'all gonna do if BioWare doesn't prove IT or similar?

Move on.

If it turns out that the IT was not intended or not used in the EC, and if the EC turns out being craptastic, I'll move on. There is no sense in crying over spilt milk, is there?

If the EC turns out to be a flop, I won't whine about it, I'll probably just leave, and forget it all together. Of course, I will still remember the fun times speculating with the IT croud! That is something I probably won't forget for a long time...

[MegumiAzusa]

MaximizedAction wrote...

byne wrote...

To be fair, Harbinger sort of acknowledged the term Reapers.

Remember at the end of ME2?

Human. You've changed nothing. Your species has the attention of those infinitely your greater. That which you know as Reapers are your salvation through destruction.

That quote forshadows the words of Starbinger.

And I love how, no matter if you (a player / a resident of the galaxy in ME) accept the concept of indoctrination, once you accept this explaination from the Reapers as a motivation for you to give yourself in, and you would because you care for your friends and would like them to continue existing in some form, you're doing what the Reapers tell you to.

Before being confronted with the Reapers it was easy to speak of indoctrination, in ME3 that is not the case anymore. Everyone will eventually ask him or herself: what do I really believe?  And in an ideal scenario that would really be 'believe', because we are not able to check the real motivation, so it comes down to some sort of faith.

In the ME3 scenario we are lucky that (in retrospect) we are able to find holes in the logic in Starbinger's arguments, but if that were not possible, the final Destroy/Synthesis/Control choice would have been a true choice of faith, faith and trust in your moral concepts you find to be correct.

A true philosophical problem.

Sorry but I still can't see any holes in its logic.

[MegumiAzusa]

StElmo wrote...

boeloe wrote...

Well one thing I found odd about starbinger's little speech is that he refers to himself and the reapers as 'us'. "I know you have been thinking about destroying us".

reaper consensus? doesn't make sense, all reapers are individual.

Maybe he is the first reaper?

Head reaper?

Dunno.

He's def a reaper.

Why doesn't it make sense?
Harbinger:
"We fight as one."
"We are assuming control."
"We are Harbinger."

Modifié par MegumiAzusa, 28 mai 2012 - 06:43 .

[balance5050]

MegumiAzusa wrote...

Sorry but I still can't see any holes in its logic.

The thing it's trying to prevent has never happened before.

[MegumiAzusa]

balance5050 wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

Sorry but I still can't see any holes in its logic.

The thing it's trying to prevent has never happened before.

This doesn't make it impossible. I haven't been to Japan, is it impossible for me to ever be there?
You don't know if it would have happened long ago if the Reapers wouldn't have prevented it.

[balance5050]

MegumiAzusa wrote...

Sorry but I still can't see any holes in its logic.

"The created wil always rebel against their creator."

In our cycle the Geth can make peace with the Quarians, so obviously it's not always but on sometimes.

In the last cycle the Xha'til were actually organics who implanted themselves to survive their crappy planet, they basically "created themselves" and and didn't really become a threat to anyone until the reapers indoctrinated them all, THEN the protheans ignited their sun.

[balance5050]

MegumiAzusa wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

Sorry but I still can't see any holes in its logic.

The thing it's trying to prevent has never happened before.

This doesn't make it impossible. I haven't been to Japan, is it impossible for me to ever be there?
You don't know if it would have happened long ago if the Reapers wouldn't have prevented it.

That logic doesn't fit because other people have been to Japan, we know it's possible. The synthetics completly glassing every other planet with life on it seems like a far fetched thing because Not even the most brutal species of anything want to kill all forms of life. I'm sure Rannoch has wildlife somewhere.

[MegumiAzusa]

balance5050 wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

Sorry but I still can't see any holes in its logic.

"The created wil always rebel against their creator."

In our cycle the Geth can make peace with the Quarians, so obviously it's not always but on sometimes.

In the last cycle the Xha'til were actually organics who implanted themselves to survive their crappy planet, they basically "created themselves" and and didn't really become a threat to anyone until the reapers indoctrinated them all, THEN the protheans ignited their sun.

You cannot know what the Geth would have done after they achieved construction of their superstructre. They didn't exterminate all Quarians because they couldn't know what effect it would have with their limited abilities as stated by Legion. There is nothing stopping them from getting that ability and deeming the Quarians as bacteria that is to be vanquished.
You simply cannot deny the possibility that in the end the Reapers were just working for the greater good.

[Dwailing]

MegumiAzusa wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

Sorry but I still can't see any holes in its logic.

The thing it's trying to prevent has never happened before.

This doesn't make it impossible. I haven't been to Japan, is it impossible for me to ever be there?
You don't know if it would have happened long ago if the Reapers wouldn't have prevented it.

Wait, Megumi, how can you be AGREEING with ReaperBieber's logic?

[Dimius]

MaximizedAction wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

Dimius wrote...

I wonder if this was discussed already... When Shepard got teleported to the citadel, he could have gotten incapacitated, and put on an examination table by the reapers. And they just try to feed him false memories. Could that be an excuse to continue the game?

Idk what you mean by excuse but it's certainly a possibility.

Of course, then the breath scene must be a hallucination, too.

The reapers just dumpted his body away, and never checked if it's totally dead. But Shepard doesn't die so easily. Maybe the elusive man thought this through with Shepard's implants.

[estebanus]

MegumiAzusa wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

Sorry but I still can't see any holes in its logic.

The thing it's trying to prevent has never happened before.

This doesn't make it impossible. I haven't been to Japan, is it impossible for me to ever be there?
You don't know if it would have happened long ago if the Reapers wouldn't have prevented it.

You don't know that it actually would have happened.

That's like killing an immigrant because he "may have" been a terrorrist!

[MegumiAzusa]

Dwailing wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

Sorry but I still can't see any holes in its logic.

The thing it's trying to prevent has never happened before.

This doesn't make it impossible. I haven't been to Japan, is it impossible for me to ever be there?
You don't know if it would have happened long ago if the Reapers wouldn't have prevented it.

Wait, Megumi, how can you be AGREEING with ReaperBieber's logic?

Because the logic in itself is flawless, the morality isn't.

[Dwailing]

MegumiAzusa wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

Sorry but I still can't see any holes in its logic.

"The created wil always rebel against their creator."

In our cycle the Geth can make peace with the Quarians, so obviously it's not always but on sometimes.

In the last cycle the Xha'til were actually organics who implanted themselves to survive their crappy planet, they basically "created themselves" and and didn't really become a threat to anyone until the reapers indoctrinated them all, THEN the protheans ignited their sun.

You cannot know what the Geth would have done after they achieved construction of their superstructre. They didn't exterminate all Quarians because they couldn't know what effect it would have with their limited abilities as stated by Legion. There is nothing stopping them from getting that ability and deeming the Quarians as bacteria that is to be vanquished.
You simply cannot deny the possibility that in the end the Reapers were just working for the greater good.

Frak.  No.  I will NOT accept that the Reapers are anything more than complete monsters.  I'm getting sick of people trying to say that the Reapers aren't so bad, they're just well intentioned extremists.  NO!!!!  They are complete monsters, and I will NOT stop until every.  Last.  One.  Of.  Them.  Is turned into galactic space paste.

[byne]

MegumiAzusa wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

Sorry but I still can't see any holes in its logic.

The thing it's trying to prevent has never happened before.

This doesn't make it impossible. I haven't been to Japan, is it impossible for me to ever be there?
You don't know if it would have happened long ago if the Reapers wouldn't have prevented it.

Its also not impossible that the Reapers will eventually turn on the Catalyst, but I dont see him killing every single Reaper every 50,000 years to be certain it doesnt happen.

You can make an argument that anything is theoretically possible.

Even if you assume that given infinite time, there is a 100% chance that it will happen, you have to take into account that we dont have infinite time. Even spacefaring civilizations can go extinct naturally, without Reaper intervention.

As for the last part, that we dont know it wouldnt have already happened if the Reapers werent preventing it, you're right.

Thats why I bought my character in WoW an Infallible Tikbalang Ward. Ever since I bought it, not a single tikbalang has stolen my character away to the treetops.

While you could attribute this to the fact that tikbalangs do not in fact exist in WoW, I prefer to believe it is my trusty amulet keeping them away.

[Ytook]

The reapers force civilisations into a specific line of technological development, and then 'save' those civilisations from the path they put them on, it's like me locking you in a corridor with a knife at the end of it and then killing you if you pick it up, I've forced you into that situation and created the problem that I perceive to be such a threat, on top of that there is no reason to think that just because you've picked up the knife you will do anything bad with it.

Also the reapers in no way preserve civilisations, they liquefy a small proportion of the civilisation and then somehow force that gestalt consciousness into servitude to their ideals and beliefs, that is not preserving anything about a civilisation other then their basic matter, which in terms of culture means very little.

[Big Bad]

MegumiAzusa wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

Sorry but I still can't see any holes in its logic.

The thing it's trying to prevent has never happened before.

This doesn't make it impossible. I haven't been to Japan, is it impossible for me to ever be there?
You don't know if it would have happened long ago if the Reapers wouldn't have prevented it.

Actually it pretty much is impossible, unless the synthetics are suicidal.  In order to wipe out all organic life (as the catalyst claims would happen), the synthetics would literally have to destroy every single planet that is even plausibly capable of sustaining any kind of organic life.  If the synthetics did this, they would basically be signing their own death sentence since the destruction of these planets would result in an incomprehensibly massive loss of natural resources.  There isn't any form of life that doesn't require resources to survive.