55528 réponses à ce sujet

[balance5050]

MegumiAzusa wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

I thought you were on board with us here? Can't you see that the whole scene is just a ruse?

I don't agree with it, and in my opinion it just lies, but you can neither prove nor disprove the logic presented at that point of the game.

Why would you trust the logic of a liar?

I only said the logic in itself is flawless. Just because you lie you don't have to be illogical.

Flawless? You have got to be kidding, it's faulty logic because the source can't be trusted.

It doesn't matter if the source can be trusted or not.

Yes it does.

"We harvest sentient beings, leaving the younger ones ALONE"

Harvesters are "CREATURES"

 

The fact that he even lies about his methods puts his whole argument on a tailspin. Synthetics wiping out ALL organic life when our cycle have only discovered 1% of all the planets? Life would spring back up on the other side of the galaxy by the time they're done.

Modifié par balance5050, 28 mai 2012 - 07:24 .

[MegumiAzusa]

Dwailing wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

Dwailing wrote...
If you're refering to the actual TRUTH of the argument, then I agree that it is possible that it could, theoretically, happen.  But technically, I could spontaniously combust right now, or Chuck Norris could come and smash my face into the keyboard, or an ice cream truck could fall out of the sky and crush me and my house.  Anything is POSSIBLE, but whether it's PROBABLE is another matter entirely.

Over the course of billions of years the statistical probability gets pretty high. If the chance of this probability isn't exactly zero it is enough for the logic to be correct.

Actually, the odds of something happening DON'T increase the longer something doesn't happen.  May I refer you to the Gambler's Fallacy? 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gambler's_fallacy

I expressively said STATISTICAL probability, which does increase.

Please, inform me as to why the statistical probability would increase.

Convergence of probability.

[byne]

BleedingUranium wrote...

byne wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

or an ice cream truck could fall out of the sky and crush me and my house.

Now thats what I call a sticky situation!

Dwailing wrote...

Anything is POSSIBLE, but whether it's PROBABLE is another matter entirely.

"I take exception to your assertion that we were warned this was a possibility. I would like to remind the Sub-committee members, that anything is possible. Some things are probable. This is, what is. And my agency as it always has, will continue to deal with what is... until it is no more." - Dr Leonard Church.

Season 10 tonight Byne

I know! Cant wait. I should get it two hours early too, since I'm a sponsor!

[MegumiAzusa]

balance5050 wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

I thought you were on board with us here? Can't you see that the whole scene is just a ruse?

I don't agree with it, and in my opinion it just lies, but you can neither prove nor disprove the logic presented at that point of the game.

Why would you trust the logic of a liar?

I only said the logic in itself is flawless. Just because you lie you don't have to be illogical.

Flawless? You have got to be kidding, it's faulty logic because the source can't be trusted.

It doesn't matter if the source can be trusted or not.

Yes it does.

"We harvest sentient beings, leaving the younger ones ALONE"

Harvesters are "CREATURES"

 

The fact that he even lies about his methods puts his whole argument on a tailspin. Synthetics wiping out ALL organic life when our cycle have only discovered 1% of all the planets? Life would spring back up on the other side of the galaxy by the time they're done.

It is talking about "younger ones" as in younger species. Species as a whole, which is pretty much unaffected if some of them are converted for the Reapers needs.

[Dwailing]

byne wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

byne wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

or an ice cream truck could fall out of the sky and crush me and my house.

Now thats what I call a sticky situation!

Dwailing wrote...

Anything is POSSIBLE, but whether it's PROBABLE is another matter entirely.

"I take exception to your assertion that we were warned this was a possibility. I would like to remind the Sub-committee members, that anything is possible. Some things are probable. This is, what is. And my agency as it always has, will continue to deal with what is... until it is no more." - Dr Leonard Church.

Season 10 tonight Byne

I know! Cant wait. I should get it two hours early too, since I'm a sponsor!

Dang, that's pretty awesome.  I really need to get a Rooster Teeth account.  Also, what do you have to do to become a sponsor?

[Dwailing]

MegumiAzusa wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

Dwailing wrote...
If you're refering to the actual TRUTH of the argument, then I agree that it is possible that it could, theoretically, happen.  But technically, I could spontaniously combust right now, or Chuck Norris could come and smash my face into the keyboard, or an ice cream truck could fall out of the sky and crush me and my house.  Anything is POSSIBLE, but whether it's PROBABLE is another matter entirely.

Over the course of billions of years the statistical probability gets pretty high. If the chance of this probability isn't exactly zero it is enough for the logic to be correct.

Actually, the odds of something happening DON'T increase the longer something doesn't happen.  May I refer you to the Gambler's Fallacy? 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gambler's_fallacy

I expressively said STATISTICAL probability, which does increase.

Please, inform me as to why the statistical probability would increase.

Convergence of probability.

Please actually provide an EXPLANTION as to how that works.  I'm still in high school, I'd like to learn. 

[balance5050]

MegumiAzusa wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

I thought you were on board with us here? Can't you see that the whole scene is just a ruse?

I don't agree with it, and in my opinion it just lies, but you can neither prove nor disprove the logic presented at that point of the game.

Why would you trust the logic of a liar?

I only said the logic in itself is flawless. Just because you lie you don't have to be illogical.

Flawless? You have got to be kidding, it's faulty logic because the source can't be trusted.

It doesn't matter if the source can be trusted or not.

Yes it does.

"We harvest sentient beings, leaving the younger ones ALONE"

Harvesters are "CREATURES"

snip 

The fact that he even lies about his methods puts his whole argument on a tailspin. Synthetics wiping out ALL organic life when our cycle have only discovered 1% of all the planets? Life would spring back up on the other side of the galaxy by the time they're done.

It is talking about "younger ones" as in younger species. Species as a whole, which is pretty much unaffected if some of them are converted for the Reapers needs.

Well then I wish they did this:

 

[Dwailing]

balance5050 wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

I thought you were on board with us here? Can't you see that the whole scene is just a ruse?

I don't agree with it, and in my opinion it just lies, but you can neither prove nor disprove the logic presented at that point of the game.

Why would you trust the logic of a liar?

I only said the logic in itself is flawless. Just because you lie you don't have to be illogical.

Flawless? You have got to be kidding, it's faulty logic because the source can't be trusted.

It doesn't matter if the source can be trusted or not.

Yes it does.

"We harvest sentient beings, leaving the younger ones ALONE"

Harvesters are "CREATURES"

snip 

The fact that he even lies about his methods puts his whole argument on a tailspin. Synthetics wiping out ALL organic life when our cycle have only discovered 1% of all the planets? Life would spring back up on the other side of the galaxy by the time they're done.

It is talking about "younger ones" as in younger species. Species as a whole, which is pretty much unaffected if some of them are converted for the Reapers needs.

Well then I wish they did this:

 

OK, how come the fans seem to be coming up with better ideas than Bioware?  'Cause that would have been FRAKKING AWESOME!!!

[byne]

balance5050 wrote...

The fact that he even lies about his methods puts his whole argument on a tailspin. Synthetics wiping out ALL organic life when our cycle have only discovered 1% of all the planets? Life would spring back up on the other side of the galaxy by the time they're done.

People also conveniently ignore the fact that the quarians were about to win and wipe out the geth, until the Reapers interfered and upgraded the geth to an extent that would have allowed them to wipe out the quarians.

Its like saying "Oh no! That man is going to shoot himself in the head! I'd better destroy all guns, because guns are bad! But first I'm going to remind him he is out of ammo, and even give him extra ammo, so he can shoot himself, and maybe even a few others before that! But then I'll destroy all guns!"

Cause that just makes good sense.

[Dwailing]

byne wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

The fact that he even lies about his methods puts his whole argument on a tailspin. Synthetics wiping out ALL organic life when our cycle have only discovered 1% of all the planets? Life would spring back up on the other side of the galaxy by the time they're done.

People also conveniently ignore the fact that the quarians were about to win and wipe out the geth, until the Reapers interfered and upgraded the geth to an extent that would have allowed them to wipe out the quarians.

Its like saying "Oh no! That man is going to shoot himself in the head! I'd better destroy all guns, because guns are bad! But first I'm going to remind him he is out of ammo, and even give him extra ammo, so he can shoot himself, and maybe even a few others before that! But then I'll destroy all guns!"

Cause that just makes good sense.

 
Oh man, I'd almost forgotten how much fun it is to mock ReaperBieber's explanation.

[byne]

Dwailing wrote...


Dang, that's pretty awesome.  I really need to get a Rooster Teeth account.  Also, what do you have to do to become a sponsor?

Pay $10 every six months.

The basic accounts themselves are free though! Go make one!

[BleedingUranium]

balance5050 wrote...

No, new species rise and fall all the time, the odds are far greater that the Krogans would kill everything. Sentient organics and sentient synthetics is a distinction that is made only by physical attributes, much like racism. There will always be war for as long as there is life.

I think this is the most important point made, because we've been shown (or not shown) two things throughout ME:

1) Synthetics are no different than organics, they're just made of different stuff. This is one of the central theme's of Mass Effect, synthetics are no different that organics are to each other. In fact, I'd say Shepard has more in common with Legion than he does with Javik, as an example.

2) Synthetics have never, and I mean never been shown to rebel against their creators, or against organics in general. Ever. They've either fought to save themselves, as any organic race would have done, or been indoctrinated by the Reapers. The Geth Heretics were indoctrinated, indoctrination for synthetics, but indoctrinated to the same end result as organics.

There may be a synthetic race that eventually decides they want to kill all organics, but organic races have tried several time already to do that, and somehow organics killing synthetics isn't a problem

[balance5050]

byne wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

The fact that he even lies about his methods puts his whole argument on a tailspin. Synthetics wiping out ALL organic life when our cycle have only discovered 1% of all the planets? Life would spring back up on the other side of the galaxy by the time they're done.

People also conveniently ignore the fact that the quarians were about to win and wipe out the geth, until the Reapers interfered and upgraded the geth to an extent that would have allowed them to wipe out the quarians.

Its like saying "Oh no! That man is going to shoot himself in the head! I'd better destroy all guns, because guns are bad! But first I'm going to remind him he is out of ammo, and even give him extra ammo, so he can shoot himself, and maybe even a few others before that! But then I'll destroy all guns!"

Cause that just makes good sense.

Your enemies are weaker when they fight eachother.

Star beiber is obviously well informed if he knows that Shep has been wanting to destroy them. So he should be aware of all the things in this cycle that contradict his argument. I like how a single organic lying on his floor shows him that he "needs a new solution", but actual peace between a synthetic and an organic race doesn't cut it.

Modifié par balance5050, 28 mai 2012 - 07:39 .

[MegumiAzusa]

Dwailing wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

Dwailing wrote...
If you're refering to the actual TRUTH of the argument, then I agree that it is possible that it could, theoretically, happen.  But technically, I could spontaniously combust right now, or Chuck Norris could come and smash my face into the keyboard, or an ice cream truck could fall out of the sky and crush me and my house.  Anything is POSSIBLE, but whether it's PROBABLE is another matter entirely.

Over the course of billions of years the statistical probability gets pretty high. If the chance of this probability isn't exactly zero it is enough for the logic to be correct.

Actually, the odds of something happening DON'T increase the longer something doesn't happen.  May I refer you to the Gambler's Fallacy? 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gambler's_fallacy

I expressively said STATISTICAL probability, which does increase.

Please, inform me as to why the statistical probability would increase.

Convergence of probability.

Please actually provide an EXPLANTION as to how that works.  I'm still in high school, I'd like to learn. 

The right term in english is convergence in probability as I just found out but I guess this could give you some overview:
http://www.statlect.com/prbcon1.htm
In very short:
If you have the probability x for event e to be happening you can create a function of how likely it was for the e to have happened. This is not the probability of e at a certain point, that would be equal in any case, but the probability of it having happened since some arbitrary point.

[byne]

balance5050 wrote...

byne wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

The fact that he even lies about his methods puts his whole argument on a tailspin. Synthetics wiping out ALL organic life when our cycle have only discovered 1% of all the planets? Life would spring back up on the other side of the galaxy by the time they're done.

People also conveniently ignore the fact that the quarians were about to win and wipe out the geth, until the Reapers interfered and upgraded the geth to an extent that would have allowed them to wipe out the quarians.

Its like saying "Oh no! That man is going to shoot himself in the head! I'd better destroy all guns, because guns are bad! But first I'm going to remind him he is out of ammo, and even give him extra ammo, so he can shoot himself, and maybe even a few others before that! But then I'll destroy all guns!"

Cause that just makes good sense.

You're enemies are weaker when they fight eachother.

Star beiber is obviously well informed if he knows that that Shep has been wanting to destroy them. So he should be aware of all the things in this cycle that contradict his argument. I like how a single organic lying on his floor shows him that he "needs a new solution", but actual peace between a synthetic and an organic race doesn't cut it.

The best part is that Shepard never would have even made it there if godchild hadnt gone out of its way to bring her there, and his solution would apparently still be fine.

[TSA_383]

Sup folks, all this "actually being gainfully employed" nonsense and I've missed another 35 pages - anything interesting happen?

[BleedingUranium]

TSA_383 wrote...

Sup folks, all this "actually being gainfully employed" nonsense and I've missed another 35 pages - anything interesting happen?

Megumi is debating us about Starbinger's logic

[balance5050]

Didn't some one in project overlord say something like the created must always be controlled by the creator or something?

[estebanus]

balance5050 wrote...

Didn't some one in project overlord say something like the created must always be controlled by the creator or something?

I don't recall that...

[BatmanTurian]

Destructorlio wrote...

spotlessvoid wrote...

I think the Reapers wipe out civilization for two reasons.
Organics are needed for reproduction and possibly sustenance.
To stop organics from developing enough to pose a threat to the Reapers

In fact, it's the British empirical model.
Uplift the populace enough to be useful, but keep them from catching up past a certain punt. Then reap the profits

While I don't disagree with this theory (it would certainly be logical, almost borg-like, to allow species to develop to a peak and then harvest them for materials), I often feel that Mass Effect was heavily influenced by a series of novels by Alistair Reynolds, which started with the novel Revelation Space.

The central arc of the Revelation Space series focuses on a machine-race called The Inhibitors. When humanity finally started travelling to the stars, they expected to find planets full of life. Instead, all they found were the remains of advanced civilizations, which seemed to have died out. Over time (and frequently via advanced AIs from these species giving out informatino) it becomes clear that, in the black reaches of space, there is an inert machine race called the Inhibitors, which detects sentient FTL travel. Once sentient FTL travel is detected, the machines start to power up and gain sentience themselves (they are only sentient as required- typically they remain non-sentient), a process that takes hundreds of years.

Their function is to 'inhibit' the development of a massive interstellar culture. Why? Because they realized, aeons ago, that an advanced culture was the only thing with the capabiltiy of destroying the galaxy. Sentience itself is the threat that they counter. Only sentient species dominate other species, harvest worlds for their own use, and possess massive destructive capability. So, in order to protect all other life, the inhibitors were created. 

Sound a bit familiar? When I first played ME1 I frequently thought of Revelation Space, and would not be surprised if the authors of ME drew inspiration from it. I think it would be an elegant motivation for the Reapers- not that they are malevolent, just that they recognize that sentient species are simply a threat to each other, and all life. This theme runs through Mass Effect- the way we hurt each other- think about it, every species in the ME universe tries to dominate another. Salarians use the genophage to stop the Krogan after uplifting them to fight the Rachni, Quarians use the Geth, humans fight the Turians. It all interlocks. When you speak to the Rannoch Reaper, I could have sworn he was about to reveal this greater purpose to me 'You cannot understand'. Mindless killing, that's not motivation. Killing billions to save all the life that doesn't go to war? I can see that. That's why Reapers never harvest lower forms of life- they are protecting them.

Not saying I agree with the motivation proscribed here, and I think one of the themes of the ME series is how Shepard convinces the races to cooperate, not fight, and so lifts them above the destruction the Reapers might accuse them of.

Anyway, I like that the Reaper motivation remains a mystery, but that has been the explanation in my head since ME1, and it's actually bourne out quite well. But I also like the idea that they are 'preserving' races in Reaper form, and that they are just harvesting us like wheat.

EDIT: Heh- check out the wiki on The Inhibitors, it contains this line:

"They do not actively monitor the galaxy in their wait for a new star faring culture to suppress, instead they plant a series of triggers near interesting phenomena or structures in the galaxy and wait for sapient life to activate those triggers. The Cerberus object around the neutron star Hades was one such object."

http://en.wikipedia....tors_.2F_Wolves

[color=rgb(0, 0, 0)">2nd EDIT: Not the first to point out this similarity, it seems: ] [/color]http://social.biowar...ndex/11047193/1

Awesome! Somebody else read these and drew the same conclusions. +infinity internet points for you, my friend.

[Big Bad]

Dwailing wrote...
Please actually provide an EXPLANTION as to how that works.  I'm still in high school, I'd like to learn. 

I think it's easiest to explain with an example.  Say that there is a lottery being held where each person can buy one ticket.  Each ticket will have 5 random numbers, from 1 - 5.  If one person buys a ticket, the probably that his will be the winning ticket is 1/(5^25).  Obviously that is a very small number.  But let's say this is actually a national lottery, so 50 million people each buy a ticket.  In that case, the probability that somebody will win becomes (5^6)/(5 *25), which equals 1/(5^19).    So the probabilty that somebody will win is much higher (though it is still very small in my example).  However, the probability that you would win is still 1/(5^25).  It hasn't changed at all.

Does that make sense?

[balance5050]

estebanus wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

Didn't some one in project overlord say something like the created must always be controlled by the creator or something?

I don't recall that...

Yeah, I don't remember exactly what it was, but I believe it was also full of Starbeiber contradictions, I'll have to replay it, even though the loud noises in that DLC are scary and loud and annoying.

Modifié par balance5050, 28 mai 2012 - 07:55 .

[Dwailing]

Big Bad wrote...

Dwailing wrote...
Please actually provide an EXPLANTION as to how that works.  I'm still in high school, I'd like to learn. 

I think it's easiest to explain with an example.  Say that there is a lottery being held where each person can buy one ticket.  Each ticket will have 5 random numbers, from 1 - 5.  If one person buys a ticket, the probably that his will be the winning ticket is 1/(5^25).  Obviously that is a very small number.  But let's say this is actually a national lottery, so 50 million people each buy a ticket.  In that case, the probability that somebody will win becomes (5^6)/(5 *25), which equals 1/(5^19).    So the probabilty that somebody will win is much higher (though it is still very small in my example).  However, the probability that you would win is still 1/(5^25).  It hasn't changed at all.

Does that make sense?

Yeah, actually, it does.  

[BleedingUranium]

balance5050 wrote...

estebanus wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

Didn't some one in project overlord say something like the created must always be controlled by the creator or something?

I don't recall that...

Yeah, I don't remember exactly what it was, but I believe it was also full of Starbeiber contradictions, I'll have to replay it, even though the loud noises in that DLC are scary and loud and annoying.

The altered elevator theme was the creepiest thing in all of Mass Effect

[Big Bad]

Dwailing wrote...

Big Bad wrote...

Dwailing wrote...
Please actually provide an EXPLANTION as to how that works.  I'm still in high school, I'd like to learn. 

I think it's easiest to explain with an example.  Say that there is a lottery being held where each person can buy one ticket.  Each ticket will have 5 random numbers, from 1 - 5.  If one person buys a ticket, the probably that his will be the winning ticket is 1/(5^25).  Obviously that is a very small number.  But let's say this is actually a national lottery, so 50 million people each buy a ticket.  In that case, the probability that somebody will win becomes (5^6)/(5 *25), which equals 1/(5^19).    So the probabilty that somebody will win is much higher (though it is still very small in my example).  However, the probability that you would win is still 1/(5^25).  It hasn't changed at all.

Does that make sense?

Yeah, actually, it does.  

Sweet! 

Well, I've done my useful deed of the day, so it's time for me to go back to playing ME2.  Gonna romance Liara - yay!