55528 réponses à ce sujet

[blooregard]

balance5050 wrote...

estebanus wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

Didn't some one in project overlord say something like the created must always be controlled by the creator or something?

I don't recall that...

Yeah, I don't remember exactly what it was, but I believe it was also full of Starbeiber contradictions, I'll have to replay it, even though the loud noises in that DLC are scary and loud and annoying.

That might have been Admiral Xen saying something like that...we already knew she was bat**** crazy I don't think overlord said anything of the sort.

[D.Sharrah]

MegumiAzusa wrote...

MaximizedAction wrote...

byne wrote...

To be fair, Harbinger sort of acknowledged the term Reapers.

Remember at the end of ME2?

Human. You've changed nothing. Your species has the attention of those infinitely your greater. That which you know as Reapers are your salvation through destruction.

That quote forshadows the words of Starbinger.

And I love how, no matter if you (a player / a resident of the galaxy in ME) accept the concept of indoctrination, once you accept this explaination from the Reapers as a motivation for you to give yourself in, and you would because you care for your friends and would like them to continue existing in some form, you're doing what the Reapers tell you to.

Before being confronted with the Reapers it was easy to speak of indoctrination, in ME3 that is not the case anymore. Everyone will eventually ask him or herself: what do I really believe?  And in an ideal scenario that would really be 'believe', because we are not able to check the real motivation, so it comes down to some sort of faith.

In the ME3 scenario we are lucky that (in retrospect) we are able to find holes in the logic in Starbinger's arguments, but if that were not possible, the final Destroy/Synthesis/Control choice would have been a true choice of faith, faith and trust in your moral concepts you find to be correct.

A true philosophical problem.

Sorry but I still can't see any holes in its logic.

Its not so much that there are holes...more that they are circular...like an error loop, if you will.

[D.Sharrah]

balance5050 wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

Sorry but I still can't see any holes in its logic.

"The created wil always rebel against their creator."

In our cycle the Geth can make peace with the Quarians, so obviously it's not always but on sometimes.

In the last cycle the Xha'til were actually organics who implanted themselves to survive their crappy planet, they basically "created themselves" and and didn't really become a threat to anyone until the reapers indoctrinated them all, THEN the protheans ignited their sun.

More to the point, as the Geth v. Quarian Conflict is this cycle's greatest example of the creator statement, does anyone else find it odd that the Quarians (the creators) are the antagonists...

[MegumiAzusa]

D.Sharrah wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

Sorry but I still can't see any holes in its logic.

"The created wil always rebel against their creator."

In our cycle the Geth can make peace with the Quarians, so obviously it's not always but on sometimes.

In the last cycle the Xha'til were actually organics who implanted themselves to survive their crappy planet, they basically "created themselves" and and didn't really become a threat to anyone until the reapers indoctrinated them all, THEN the protheans ignited their sun.

More to the point, as the Geth v. Quarian Conflict is this cycle's greatest example of the creator statement, does anyone else find it odd that the Quarians (the creators) are the antagonists...

It actually doesn't matter who fired the first shot. The Quarians wanted to deactivate the Geth, the Geth didn't allow it, and the shut down didn't work. That can be seen as a form of rebellion. Rebellion is anything that is against the creators, and not shutting down from a deactivation command certainly is.
It's just that rebellion isn't bad in all cases, but has a bad ring to it.

Modifié par MegumiAzusa, 28 mai 2012 - 08:59 .

[BleedingUranium]

MegumiAzusa wrote...

D.Sharrah wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

Sorry but I still can't see any holes in its logic.

"The created wil always rebel against their creator."

In our cycle the Geth can make peace with the Quarians, so obviously it's not always but on sometimes.

In the last cycle the Xha'til were actually organics who implanted themselves to survive their crappy planet, they basically "created themselves" and and didn't really become a threat to anyone until the reapers indoctrinated them all, THEN the protheans ignited their sun.

More to the point, as the Geth v. Quarian Conflict is this cycle's greatest example of the creator statement, does anyone else find it odd that the Quarians (the creators) are the antagonists...

It actually doesn't matter who fired the first shot. The Quarians wanted to deactivate the Geth, the Geth didn't allow it, and the shut down didn't work. That can be seen as a form of rebellion. Rebellion is anything that is against the creators, and not shutting down from a deactivation command certainly is.

Umm, sure, in the same way you could say certain people in the 1930/40s wanted to "deactivate" the Jews, the Jews didn't allow it, and the "shut down" didn't work. That can be seen as a form of rebellion.



Edit: okay, rebellion isn't always bad, I usually see it as good, but we're not actually talking about rebellion, we're talking about genocide, and rebelling against that isn't bad.

Modifié par BleedingUranium, 28 mai 2012 - 09:02 .

[MegumiAzusa]

Read my edit kthx.

[D.Sharrah]

MegumiAzusa wrote...

D.Sharrah wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

Sorry but I still can't see any holes in its logic.

"The created wil always rebel against their creator."

In our cycle the Geth can make peace with the Quarians, so obviously it's not always but on sometimes.

In the last cycle the Xha'til were actually organics who implanted themselves to survive their crappy planet, they basically "created themselves" and and didn't really become a threat to anyone until the reapers indoctrinated them all, THEN the protheans ignited their sun.

More to the point, as the Geth v. Quarian Conflict is this cycle's greatest example of the creator statement, does anyone else find it odd that the Quarians (the creators) are the antagonists...

It actually doesn't matter who fired the first shot. The Quarians wanted to deactivate the Geth, the Geth didn't allow it, and the shut down didn't work. That can be seen as a form of rebellion. Rebellion is anything that is against the creators, and not shutting down from a deactivation command certainly is.
It's just that rebellion isn't bad in all cases, but has a bad ring to it.

Again this is what I find circular about the logic..Creator creates, created rebels...and could wipe out creators...so to save creators, wipe them out before they create...but in the process of doing so, leave them the "path" to creations so that we know that they will be creators.

If they really wanted to stop the cycle...stop leaving their tech behind and see what would happen.

Edit:  And more to the point...if the Geth v. Quarian Coflict does fit the example, then where were the Reapers to save the Quarians from their dreadful synthetic rebellers...If this is really why they do what they do, how come they didn't?

Modifié par D.Sharrah, 28 mai 2012 - 09:09 .

[MegumiAzusa]

BleedingUranium wrote...
okay, rebellion isn't always bad, I usually see it as good, but we're not actually talking about rebellion, we're talking about genocide

It doesn't matter if it's rebellion against oppressors or if it's rebellion against someone who try to kill everyone, or anything else. It is a form of rebellion. It doesn't matter if it's peaceful or not.
"Rebellion, uprising, or insurrection is a refusal of obedience or order." which is exactly what the Geth did.

[MegumiAzusa]

D.Sharrah wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

D.Sharrah wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

Sorry but I still can't see any holes in its logic.

"The created wil always rebel against their creator."

In our cycle the Geth can make peace with the Quarians, so obviously it's not always but on sometimes.

In the last cycle the Xha'til were actually organics who implanted themselves to survive their crappy planet, they basically "created themselves" and and didn't really become a threat to anyone until the reapers indoctrinated them all, THEN the protheans ignited their sun.

More to the point, as the Geth v. Quarian Conflict is this cycle's greatest example of the creator statement, does anyone else find it odd that the Quarians (the creators) are the antagonists...

It actually doesn't matter who fired the first shot. The Quarians wanted to deactivate the Geth, the Geth didn't allow it, and the shut down didn't work. That can be seen as a form of rebellion. Rebellion is anything that is against the creators, and not shutting down from a deactivation command certainly is.
It's just that rebellion isn't bad in all cases, but has a bad ring to it.

Again this is what I find circular about the logic..Creator creates, created rebels...and could wipe out creators...so to save creators, wipe them out before they create...but in the process of doing so, leave them the "path" to creations so that we know that they will be creators.

If they really wanted to stop the cycle...stop leaving their tech behind and see what would happen.

Yeah what could happen? How about a technology not anticipated by the Reapers that can easily bypass their barriers and destroy them...

[D.Sharrah]

MegumiAzusa wrote...

D.Sharrah wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

D.Sharrah wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

Sorry but I still can't see any holes in its logic.

"The created wil always rebel against their creator."

In our cycle the Geth can make peace with the Quarians, so obviously it's not always but on sometimes.

In the last cycle the Xha'til were actually organics who implanted themselves to survive their crappy planet, they basically "created themselves" and and didn't really become a threat to anyone until the reapers indoctrinated them all, THEN the protheans ignited their sun.

More to the point, as the Geth v. Quarian Conflict is this cycle's greatest example of the creator statement, does anyone else find it odd that the Quarians (the creators) are the antagonists...

It actually doesn't matter who fired the first shot. The Quarians wanted to deactivate the Geth, the Geth didn't allow it, and the shut down didn't work. That can be seen as a form of rebellion. Rebellion is anything that is against the creators, and not shutting down from a deactivation command certainly is.
It's just that rebellion isn't bad in all cases, but has a bad ring to it.

Again this is what I find circular about the logic..Creator creates, created rebels...and could wipe out creators...so to save creators, wipe them out before they create...but in the process of doing so, leave them the "path" to creations so that we know that they will be creators.

If they really wanted to stop the cycle...stop leaving their tech behind and see what would happen.

Yeah what could happen? How about a technology not anticipated by the Reapers that can easily bypass their barriers and destroy them...

Well them worrying about a change in technology surpassing them would be changing their reason for the cycle, wouldn't it?  At that point it would be...Hey, we're the top of the food chain and we are gonna make damn sure that it stays that way.

[D.Sharrah]

I guess my point, still gets back to the idea that in a way the Reapers are our creators (at least technologically speaking). And because of their influence as such, we develop along a path that "creates" a "need" for the cycle. If you were to remove that influence, would it stop the "cycle"?

[Corik]

D.Sharrah wrote...

I guess my point, still gets back to the idea that in a way the Reapers are our creators (at least technologically speaking). And because of their influence as such, we develop along a path that "creates" a "need" for the cycle. If you were to remove that influence, would it stop the "cycle"?

Actually that's interesting.

We are their "creations" so we always will try to turn against them. They kill us because if they don't, we will kill them. That makes sense!

[D.Sharrah]

Corik wrote...

D.Sharrah wrote...

I guess my point, still gets back to the idea that in a way the Reapers are our creators (at least technologically speaking). And because of their influence as such, we develop along a path that "creates" a "need" for the cycle. If you were to remove that influence, would it stop the "cycle"?

Actually that's interesting.

We are their "creations" so we always will try to turn against them. They kill us because if they don't, we will kill them. That makes sense!

Now apply that to what ReaperBieber the Starbinger says...and if you can't see his logic going in a circle...

But yes...I think that the assumption is always that the Creators = Organics, Created = Synthetics.  But that does not necessarily have to be the case.

[dreamgazer]

This might have already been discussed, but I have a germ of an idea and I'd like to ask an initial question pertaining to it:

Do we have any clue as to how much of Shepard's brain---and, by association, his/her mental fabric and thought-process---is tangibly synthetic? This isn't a "live-or-die" inquiry, just to preface.

Modifié par dreamgazer, 28 mai 2012 - 09:22 .

[Corik]

D.Sharrah wrote...

Corik wrote...

D.Sharrah wrote...

I guess my point, still gets back to the idea that in a way the Reapers are our creators (at least technologically speaking). And because of their influence as such, we develop along a path that "creates" a "need" for the cycle. If you were to remove that influence, would it stop the "cycle"?

Actually that's interesting.

We are their "creations" so we always will try to turn against them. They kill us because if they don't, we will kill them. That makes sense!

Now apply that to what ReaperBieber the Starbinger says...and if you can't see his logic going in a circle...

But yes...I think that the assumption is always that the Creators = Organics, Created = Synthetics.  But that does not necessarily have to be the case.

Still, I dont' care about what Rieperbieber has to say. I don't care about reapers. I just want to kill them. I don't want to reason with them. That's why the first time I ended the game I said "ok, where I have to go to destroy this?"

Get the job done and drink some whiskey with Kaidan and Garrus. Nothing more.

[Corik]

dreamgazer wrote...

This might have already been discussed, but I have a germ of an idea and I'd like to ask an initial question pertaining to it:

Do we have any clue as to how much of Shepard's brain---and, by association, his/her mental fabric and thought-process---is tangibly synthetic? This isn't a "live-or-die" inquiry, just to preface.

Nothing. His brain is 100% human, afaik

[MaximizedAction]

Corik wrote...

D.Sharrah wrote...

I guess my point, still gets back to the idea that in a way the Reapers are our creators (at least technologically speaking). And because of their influence as such, we develop along a path that "creates" a "need" for the cycle. If you were to remove that influence, would it stop the "cycle"?

Actually that's interesting.

We are their "creations" so we always will try to turn against them. They kill us because if they don't, we will kill them. That makes sense!

That is the cycle of evolution. Whether synthetic or organic, life follows this pattern. Every decision can be traced back to survival in some form. Same must apply for the Reapers.
Sometimes, a symbiotic coexistence does it too, but Synthetic isn't suffiecient enough, because the Reapers still force everyone into it (by a Shepard-proxy)

Modifié par MaximizedAction, 28 mai 2012 - 09:28 .

[dreamgazer]

Corik wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

This might have already been discussed, but I have a germ of an idea and I'd like to ask an initial question pertaining to it:

Do we have any clue as to how much of Shepard's brain---and, by association, his/her mental fabric and thought-process---is tangibly synthetic? This isn't a "live-or-die" inquiry, just to preface.

Nothing. His brain is 100% human, afaik

I'm also curious if there's anything synthetic that's helping it along, even if it is whole.

[MegumiAzusa]

D.Sharrah wrote...

I guess my point, still gets back to the idea that in a way the Reapers are our creators (at least technologically speaking). And because of their influence as such, we develop along a path that "creates" a "need" for the cycle. If you were to remove that influence, would it stop the "cycle"?

No, they could develop another technology and base their AIs on that. It really doesn't matter where the technology is coming from.
The cycle would still continue.

[Corik]

dreamgazer wrote...

Corik wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

This might have already been discussed, but I have a germ of an idea and I'd like to ask an initial question pertaining to it:

Do we have any clue as to how much of Shepard's brain---and, by association, his/her mental fabric and thought-process---is tangibly synthetic? This isn't a "live-or-die" inquiry, just to preface.

Nothing. His brain is 100% human, afaik

I'm also curious if there's anything synthetic that's helping it along, even if it is whole.

I think his head was perfect. I may be wrong, but I think the only synthetics are in his body.

[Corik]

MegumiAzusa wrote...

D.Sharrah wrote...

I guess my point, still gets back to the idea that in a way the Reapers are our creators (at least technologically speaking). And because of their influence as such, we develop along a path that "creates" a "need" for the cycle. If you were to remove that influence, would it stop the "cycle"?

No, they could develop another technology and base their AIs on that. It really doesn't matter where the technology is coming from.
The cycle would still continue.

Screw the cycle. This is survival. Shepard must save humanity, his friends and his allies. I don't care about misterious cycles or probabilities. I want to live, here and now.

[blooregard]

dreamgazer wrote...

This might have already been discussed, but I have a germ of an idea and I'd like to ask an initial question pertaining to it:

Do we have any clue as to how much of Shepard's brain---and, by association, his/her mental fabric and thought-process---is tangibly synthetic? This isn't a "live-or-die" inquiry, just to preface.

No idea.

[D.Sharrah]

Ok...just had a brain wave. Not sure that it will make entire sense but here it goes...

Protheans became advanced enough that were dabbling in affecting the evolution of younger species. We learn in game (from conversations, etc.) that they had a direct impact on the evolution of at the very least the Asari, Humans, Turians and Hanar. In a way, the Protheans were very much a part of the creation of the major civilizations that are in power during this cycle. Following Starbinger's logic, it would have only been a matter of time before the powers of this cycle (again, the humans, asari, and turians) had rebelled against and destroyed the Protheans. Meaning that when the Reapers wiped out the Protheans, they were not saving them from a technological singularity but from the "next cycle".

We know that the Salarians have been very quick to dabble in the evolution of other species (most prominently the Krogan and the Yahg)...could it be, that this is what has garnered the attention of the Reapers. And that these species will be the "next cycle" - that would have eventually rebelled and wiped out the current cycle?

Edit:  The bigger point being that we tend to get so caught up on the organics vs synthetics (at least I do) part of the arguement.  That we lose sight of the bigger picture and all the other possible permuations that can come from the creator/created paradigm.  And if we do take that step back, and we can see that bigger picture...does it change anything?

Modifié par D.Sharrah, 28 mai 2012 - 09:38 .

[estebanus]

Totally off-topic, but has anyone gotten their victory and/or commendation packs for operation Shieldwall yet? Because I haven't.

[MegumiAzusa]

estebanus wrote...

Totally off-topic, but has anyone gotten their victory and/or commendation packs for operation Shieldwall yet? Because I haven't.

It usually takes some time, tomorrow would be the soonest to expect them.