Aller au contenu

Photo

Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark II!


55528 réponses à ce sujet

#8801
HellishFiend

HellishFiend
  • Members
  • 5 546 messages

MaximizedAction wrote...

DJBare wrote...

I still think the kid was there as a clue and not for emotional reason's, yeah some might be affected but that's just coincidental to the real reason Bioware introduced him.

My take has always been this, the first time Shepard sees the kid he is real, then the attack comes, out of camera view the kid is either killed or taken by the reapers, the next time Shepard sees the kid is only a glimpse and can be easily missed before he runs in through a "securely locked" door, that building is way across from where Shepard first sees the kid, there is no way his little legs would have gotten him that far and up on that level in such a short time.

The building is then blasted by the beam, here it reinforces for me the kid could not have been real, an explosion like that would have ripped through the air ducts, there is no where in that building the kid would have been safe.

Anyway, as I stated, the kid was placed for a clue not emotional aspects, Bioware would have known the emotional aspect would have a few fans cringing.


In my head, even in the first shot, the kid might not be real.

Our introduction to him (and to the game, for that matter), is themed by deception and control. In 'reality' the fighter is not real and the kid plays with it. Of course, that is nothing special for a kid, but just seconds ago, that plane seemed real. Also, why not, for example, have him play with a ball? This is no evidence, but imo it is a well fitting interpretation.

And as I remarked, the game is thus, too, introduced by the two themes: deception and control. One we theorize, that Bioware intended, the other is what for us players is the main connection to Shepard.


I agree 100% with this post, word for word!

#8802
byne

byne
  • Members
  • 7 813 messages

estebanus wrote...

Gah, still haven't gotten my commendation and victory packs for operation shieldwall!

The new maps are nice, though!


Not knowing where the ammo boxes are sucks though.

#8803
estebanus

estebanus
  • Members
  • 5 987 messages

byne wrote...

estebanus wrote...

Gah, still haven't gotten my commendation and victory packs for operation shieldwall!

The new maps are nice, though!


Not knowing where the ammo boxes are sucks though.



I get used to it. I mostly only focus on one of the ammo boxes and then use that one.

#8804
DJBare

DJBare
  • Members
  • 6 510 messages

dreamgazer wrote...

Angmir wrote...

I just repleyed the part of the game with Shepard linking into the Geth consensus - Geth Fighter Squadrons. Remember what Joker says after the mission ??

How would you know if you realy got out - and all you expeiense now is just simulation ...

Maybe the crappy endings are just a part of that simulation and Shepards Mind is just trapped inside the Consensus forever ^ ^.  This is osme alternative to Indoctrination theory isnt it ;p


While I doubt that's where they went with the story, I definitely view that comment from Joker as a not-so-subtle hint that we might not want to look at things at face-value---and should even downright question them. Preparation of sorts. 

I defintely agree with this, to me there is no issue that Shepard left the geth consensus, but that was a big hint from Joker that not everything is as it seems, I'd write that down as foreshadowing.

#8805
paxxton

paxxton
  • Members
  • 8 445 messages

DJBare wrote...

paxxton wrote...

Ytook wrote...

paxxton wrote...

DJBare wrote...

paxxton wrote...
Hah! But seriously, from Anderson's perspective it looked like Shepard was looking for something. He appeared when Shepard silently stretched his hand into the vent.

And humans are definitely a curious bunch, why would Anderson not be curious and try to see what Shepard was looking at, more to the point, why in the hell did Shepard not say anything, "oh, it's only a kid running around in the air ducts, no need to mention it"; did Shepard doubt what s/he saw?

Definately when the whole Galaxy depends on Shepard's escaping Earth. Anderson has more important things to do at that time than asking Shepard about a vent. They are both running for their lives. Besides, the child's gone - case closed.


He has time to stop and have a chat about your history and the council, but not to quickly ask Shep why she has her arm in an empty vent for no reason when they are trying to get out the building?

I think they were moving through the rubble while talking.

And Anderson paused his efforts at least once during the conversation, so they were not that desperate, Shepard definitely paused, just stood there and responded to Anderson about the council.

Because he was waiting for the old man to clean the broken metal off the way for him to cross. jk

Modifié par paxxton, 29 mai 2012 - 08:45 .


#8806
estebanus

estebanus
  • Members
  • 5 987 messages
Dear god, some people are just stupid.

Take a look at this thread: http://social.biowar...ndex/12295808/1

*facepalm*

#8807
DJBare

DJBare
  • Members
  • 6 510 messages

estebanus wrote...

Dear god, some people are just stupid.

Take a look at this thread: http://social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/12295808/1

*facepalm*

The anti I.T arguments are moot because that means taking things literally and at face value, I.T means the opposite.

#8808
HellishFiend

HellishFiend
  • Members
  • 5 546 messages

estebanus wrote...

Dear god, some people are just stupid.

Take a look at this thread: *snip*

*facepalm*


Really not a good idea to make posts like this, IMO. This is not a private thread, you know. 

#8809
MegumiAzusa

MegumiAzusa
  • Members
  • 4 238 messages

DJBare wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

DJBare wrote...

Anyway, as I stated, the kid was placed for a clue not emotional aspects, Bioware would have known the emotional aspect would have a few fans cringing.


I think it was both---not as an emotional bond to the child himself, but as a bond to the people getting obliterated on earth without a way of defending themselves.  And as a clue, a device to be used later.

Agreed, the kid would represent the destruction of humanity, it's symbolism, but as we have seen on these forum's the emotional aspect definitely takes a back seat, and I'm pretty sure the writers would have viewed it in the same way.

They said over and over that the child is a symbol in that scene. Also when not importing from ME2 the game gives you the option to select how much loss Shepard experienced, you can choose between
Kaidan
Ashley
Numerous
and the description states for Kaidan/Ashley: "..., although the incident has had a lingering psychological effect."
and for Numerous: "The burden of inevitable combat loss after so many high-risk missions weighs heavily on Shepard."

#8810
HellishFiend

HellishFiend
  • Members
  • 5 546 messages

MegumiAzusa wrote...

They said over and over that the child is a symbol in that scene. Also when not importing from ME2 the game gives you the option to select how much loss Shepard experienced, you can choose between
Kaidan
Ashley
Numerous
and the description states for Kaidan/Ashley: "..., although the incident has had a lingering psychological effect."
and for Numerous: "The burden of inevitable combat loss after so many high-risk missions weighs heavily on Shepard."


This is a good point too. I had noticed that when I made a non-import Shepard, but didnt think too much about the significance.

Now that I think about it, it seems clear that regardless of what we, the player, think Shepard should be feeling, the loss of the squadmate that died on Virmire does weigh heavily on him. Just because you dont have to pick the dialog option that expresses it doesnt mean he isnt feeling it. 

Sadly, that weight makes him more susceptible to indoctrination....

#8811
legaldinho

legaldinho
  • Members
  • 359 messages

MaximizedAction wrote...

DJBare wrote...

I still think the kid was there as a clue and not for emotional reason's, yeah some might be affected but that's just coincidental to the real reason Bioware introduced him.

My take has always been this, the first time Shepard sees the kid he is real, then the attack comes, out of camera view the kid is either killed or taken by the reapers, the next time Shepard sees the kid is only a glimpse and can be easily missed before he runs in through a "securely locked" door, that building is way across from where Shepard first sees the kid, there is no way his little legs would have gotten him that far and up on that level in such a short time.

The building is then blasted by the beam, here it reinforces for me the kid could not have been real, an explosion like that would have ripped through the air ducts, there is no where in that building the kid would have been safe.

Anyway, as I stated, the kid was placed for a clue not emotional aspects, Bioware would have known the emotional aspect would have a few fans cringing.


In my head, even in the first shot, the kid might not be real.

Our introduction to him (and to the game, for that matter), is themed by deception and control. In 'reality' the fighter is not real and the kid plays with it. Of course, that is nothing special for a kid, but just seconds ago, that plane seemed real. Also, why not, for example, have him play with a ball? This is no evidence, but imo it is a well fitting interpretation.

And as I remarked, the game is thus, too, introduced by the two themes: deception and control. One we theorize, that Bioware intended, the other is what for us players is the main connection to Shepard.


I commented on that in the old IT thread. It's essentially the first shot of the game. Quite how anyone can start a second playthrough and not ask themselves questions from that point on, I really don't know.

It doesn't mean IT is the ending. It means a major theme of the game is that which you rightly noted. It means indoctrination is an alternative interpretation that runs right through the game, and reaches its crucible at the end. But Bioware screwed up. The face-value ending simply didn't fit. It came out of the blue (or red or green). They failed. Still, jesus, it was an ambitious attempt, eh. Look at us, still trying to understand and discuss.

#8812
paxxton

paxxton
  • Members
  • 8 445 messages
There's a fierce battle going on! Yes and No struggle for the win. There's constant difference at any time.
 
CHECK OUT THE POLL.

Modifié par paxxton, 29 mai 2012 - 09:09 .


#8813
MaximizedAction

MaximizedAction
  • Members
  • 3 293 messages

HellishFiend wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

They said over and over that the child is a symbol in that scene. Also when not importing from ME2 the game gives you the option to select how much loss Shepard experienced, you can choose between
Kaidan
Ashley
Numerous
and the description states for Kaidan/Ashley: "..., although the incident has had a lingering psychological effect."
and for Numerous: "The burden of inevitable combat loss after so many high-risk missions weighs heavily on Shepard."


This is a good point too. I had noticed that when I made a non-import Shepard, but didnt think too much about the significance.

Now that I think about it, it seems clear that regardless of what we, the player, think Shepard should be feeling, the loss of the squadmate that died on Virmire does weigh heavily on him. Just because you dont have to pick the dialog option that expresses it doesnt mean he isnt feeling it. 

Sadly, that weight makes him more susceptible to indoctrination....


Thus, maybe justifying why Shepard sees all these 2 dimensional VS-esqe clones around the beam and finally up on the Citadel where the Reapers are said to be bringing all captured humans for processing.

That can have many (non-trivial) reasons (within IT):
Shepard is suffering a lot of stress. Of course he's concerned by all creatures of the galaxy but the VS gets him the most. (S)he was the closest one Shep had to lose (we had to sacrifice one in ME). So either Shepard is so psychologically injured by it that it overwhelms him in his weakest moment yet, that he projects his greatest loss on everything at this moment.
Or, the Reapers are using it against Shepard to weaken his resolve, since your lost friends are much more effective than strangers.

I'm still trying to figure out, though, why BW chose to make them 2-dim and bald headed.

#8814
estebanus

estebanus
  • Members
  • 5 987 messages

HellishFiend wrote...

estebanus wrote...

Dear god, some people are just stupid.

Take a look at this thread: *snip*

*facepalm*


Really not a good idea to make posts like this, IMO. This is not a private thread, you know. 



I'm sorry, I've just had a very stressful day, so I feel kinda cranky.

#8815
DJBare

DJBare
  • Members
  • 6 510 messages

MaximizedAction wrote...
I'm still trying to figure out, though, why BW chose to make them 2-dim and bald headed.

Well, I'll go for technical reasons, that many bodies in 3D would have a very high poly count, but the other reason is not too make things too obvious, we all recognize the armor, but is it really a representation of the VS, that's the question, the faces are certainly not recognizable, is it real or hallucination, that's the best part about I.T, you are never sure.

#8816
dreamgazer

dreamgazer
  • Members
  • 15 765 messages

MegumiAzusa wrote...

and for Numerous: "The burden of inevitable combat loss after so many high-risk missions weighs heavily on Shepard."


Interesting.  I wonder what changes in the game proper from switching between Kaidan/Ashley and Numerous. 

#8817
MaximizedAction

MaximizedAction
  • Members
  • 3 293 messages

DJBare wrote...

MaximizedAction wrote...
I'm still trying to figure out, though, why BW chose to make them 2-dim and bald headed.

Well, I'll go for technical reasons, that many bodies in 3D would have a very high poly count, but the other reason is not too make things too obvious, we all recognize the armor, but is it really a representation of the VS, that's the question, the faces are certainly not recognizable, is it real or hallucination, that's the best part about I.T, you are never sure.


I'm no games developer but wouldn't it suffice to make the top layer of bodies 3-dim and position the such that it looks like a pile? Just like at the Collectors' in ME2?

#8818
estebanus

estebanus
  • Members
  • 5 987 messages
I've got a question: How do I download the ME3 patch? Or does it download automatically? There is no button under the patch to click on, so I guess I'm kinda confused here! :P

#8819
Corik

Corik
  • Members
  • 471 messages

MaximizedAction wrote...

DJBare wrote...

MaximizedAction wrote...
I'm still trying to figure out, though, why BW chose to make them 2-dim and bald headed.

Well, I'll go for technical reasons, that many bodies in 3D would have a very high poly count, but the other reason is not too make things too obvious, we all recognize the armor, but is it really a representation of the VS, that's the question, the faces are certainly not recognizable, is it real or hallucination, that's the best part about I.T, you are never sure.


I'm no games developer but wouldn't it suffice to make the top layer of bodies 3-dim and position the such that it looks like a pile? Just like at the Collectors' in ME2?


Maybe the absence of detail was intended for a dream-like enviroment. In the end, dreams and hallucinations are kinda simple, without many details.

#8820
Arian Dynas

Arian Dynas
  • Members
  • 3 799 messages

dreamgazer wrote...

Corik wrote...

Yeah, I said the same yesterday. There's also something else very weeeeird in that scene. I would ask everybody to remember when Liara appeared at Mars Research Facility, she was crawling through the vent and she made a lot of noise in his way (Like the cerberus soldiers). The only noise the kid makes is too draw Shepard's attention. When he disappears, no noise is made. Another evidence suggesting that he's an illusion (another more... XD)


... I think I learn something new about the game every time I peek my head in the thread.  Good thinking.

"Hey, the boy doesn't make any noise when disappearing from the vent.  Want proof? Liara makes a crap-ton of noise scrambling through the vent in the game's next location/scene. One makes noise, the other doesn't. Why?"


I noticed this the first time I played the demo. My first thought seeing ventboy disappear was; "He ain't really there is he?"

I had completely forgotten about that fact come release day.

Also, some words of wisdom from Uncle Jo.

Uncle Jo says...

I don't think that the "visual" clues (aside from the dreams) to the IT are the decisive point, because most of players (aside from the most insightful or cunning ones) could easily oversee them or don't pay them attention, especially during the first playthrough. They only give you, at best, the feeling that something's odd. They play their most important role only afterwards. I'll come to this later.

IMO the most important point of the ending and the IT is our ability to trust/doubt and for what reasons. That's exactly what BW wanted to test by the player. 

Either you chose to believe the Catalyst/Harbinger or not. 

It was easy to overcome the first indoc attempt which took the form of TIM in Shep's mind. Too obvious. Although I'm sure that there were some critical failures by some players at this point.

I've read in many threads that many players said that Harbinger/Starbrat is right because he has NO reason to lie to us, because he could have let us bleeding out in the activation room instead of us "saving us" and give us a choice to "end" the war.
Furthermore "he's older, more intelligent, more advanced, he knows all the things better than us".
Unconsciously the player who think like this, gave already into the first step of indoctrination, to which he has till now successfully resisted. He began to forget who he is. What he came to do.

Remember the principle of inception : Implementation of a simple idea "The Reapers are right".

From this point the player has to follow Harbinger's logic or everything that happens after will make no sense. Yet the second step, the choices : two of them seem are seductive and appeal, as you said, to the sense of sacrifice of Shep (but the Reapers "survive"). Only one, the less appealing, sends the Reapers to hell, but a great costs: genocide of the Geth, lost of the technology, death of EDI. 

Now, the player is trapped by his own logic, since he decided to trust Harbinger. He has to believe that all choices are real. Furthermore the (flawed) argument of the tech singularity induced fear in the mind of the player. This adds to the confusion and distracts him to the point, where he doesn't see anymore that Control and Synthesis are not only risky/crazy options but still allow to the Reapers to survive/win.

But the indoctrination of an organic is a difficult process with no guarantee. There still are some players who said to the space troll "Go to hell" and chose Destroy, thus overcoming the indoc attempt without even knowing what's really going on. Instinct and willpower are the things that make indoctrination hazardous for the Reapers.

Now if you reject the crap of the Starbrat, you'll ask yourself, who he really is, why he apparently gave us the possibility to destroy him, why he indeed let us survive after "TIM's encounter", what the hell did really happen in the control room, why there where ony Marauder Shields and three husks to guard the beam, what really happened AFTER Harbinger blasted Shep. Was it real?
But if it wasn't real, how could BW do not foreshadow it and give me some clues during the game? Did I eventually missed them? Then you'll go on hunting hints from the very beginning of the game and only then you'll find out that they were there, as clear as the day.

But if you don't doubt the Catalyst, you'll never see them or take them seriously.

I'm probably repeating all that was already said but that's how I see it now and what makes me firmly believe that the IT was true and intended from the beginning. 

Did you trust the Catalyst or not? Was he right? How high was your resolve? IMO that was what BW wanted to see and what speculations are about. The cliffhanger ending makes its whole sense in this context to me.


EpyonX3 wrote...

Corik wrote...

In fact, I think we should name the boy....... The Illusive Boy!


Haha TIB?

What if he's actually the forgot son of TIM?

WHAT A TWIST!

 

WHAT A TWIST!!!

Modifié par Arian Dynas, 29 mai 2012 - 10:01 .


#8821
MaximizedAction

MaximizedAction
  • Members
  • 3 293 messages

estebanus wrote...

I've got a question: How do I download the ME3 patch? Or does it download automatically? There is no button under the patch to click on, so I guess I'm kinda confused here! :P


In Origin, right-click on the ME3 pic under "My Games" --> "...Updates".

That's it.

#8822
Arian Dynas

Arian Dynas
  • Members
  • 3 799 messages

llbountyhunter wrote...

alright, who else think the reaper motives should remain clouded in mystery?

I personally think it should remain at "we are beyond your comprehension" , it makes the reapers appear more menacing, and the victory becomes that much sweeter.

otherwise bioware will explain the reaper motives and..

just like that, the magic is gone. /Edi.


It seems I need to drag out my own theory on the Reapers YET again, for the benefit of this thread, and for great justice.

Here is their beginning, in my humble opinion;

Millions of years ago, the evil alien lord Xenu..

Wait, wrong one. *pulls out the disc and snaps it in half* damn Scientologists...

Sorry about that;

Millions of years ago, when the Milky Way was still young, a species of carnivores arose to sentience, they were intelligent, murderously so, being far more canny than they prey they hunted. 

As they evolved, they developed a natural talent for both science, and war. They conquered their own planet, setting out into the Milky Way in their newly made ships, bristling with horrifying technology.

Planet after planet fell to them, as their empire grew, they mastered yet more wicked sciences, learning how to manipulate the minds of their enemies, how to render down one thing they had in surplus, bodies, into useable building material, they mastered use of the Mass Effect, discovered quantum shielding, and created the first Mass Relays to facillitate speedy travel from one end of their empire to another.

Soon they drew the attention of another, equally powerful foe, a species of insectoid aliens, known for their impressive technical skills, and their abilty as engineers, holding one of the most powerful navies in the galaxy.

The two species clashed with one another, horrifying weapons of war being designed and stolen by each, kinetic accelerator cannons finding themselves replaced with heat generating weapons, firing channels of superaccelerated liquid metal, deep cover agents being created from once trusted friends, forces turning on oneanother, fighters running kamikazi runs at light speed into the sides of powerful dreadnoughts and capital ships, a war that left scars on every world they fought, and eventually lost.

This dark race that arose to face their insectiod enemies was eventually pushed back to their homeworld, a dying, slowly withering rock, orbiting a dying star, a star due to finally die in a massive conflagration that will take with it, it's stony children, including this homeworld.

Desperation sets in, this violent race, desiring to see the continued existence of their species begins work on a method of saving their future.

Soon they realize all their hopes are for naught, there is no possible way for them to save themselves, they simply do not have the means to transport sufficient numbers of their population offworld, to survive  the vengeance of their enemies.

Then, one brilliant mind comes upon a soloution. Space and resources preclude the body from traveling, but nothing at all precludes the mind from doing so.

Their hope rekindled, they begin work upon the refit of the greatest of their flagships, turning it into the mightiest ship ever seen, a monster nearly three kilometers in length,  a suitable chariot for their species' collective intellect.

They incorporate their mightiest weapons, their most efficient and powerful kinetic barriers and engines, even developing an entirely new form of engine, creating areas of mass free space their flagship will "fall into" they pour all their resources into it, and find them insufficient.

They have run out of building materials.

But, not to be stopped, one of their most brilliant military minds comes to two realizations;

One, they won't need their bodies if they are transporting their minds with the ship, hence they can easily render them down for more building materials needed for the mind storage core.

And two, the ship, then if deprived of the crew needed to help provide building materials, will need someone to crew her, and if they should be attacked, or need to take a world to form their new homeworld, they will need groundtroops, an army.

They turn again to their grim technologies, and find the answer already prepared for them, they turn to their mental manipulation equipment, making it more efficient, and developing new, more effective ways to manipulate the body, as well as the mind, for they long ago mastered the technique of forging flesh as easily as metal.

Soon their great work is to be completed, they near the birth of the great ship that shall be the salvation of their race, taking them and their collective minds far from their dying home. The last minds are transferred into the completed ship, with their greatest military mind, whom is also their ruler, being the last to "board".

He joins his mind to the rest, and then something goes horribly wrong. Rather than maintaining a million distinct personalities, minds and psyches, they form into one horrifying gestalt, a single mind formed of many, a mind more horrible than all of their collective cruelties inflicted upon the galaxy, something perfect, and terrible in it's perfection.

A mind that belives itself to be the end of evolution, a single mind now, which has come to the realization that it is the child of an entire great species, a species which sacrificed everything for it's creation, it's perfection. A perfection it must share, this is the greatest achivement that it's species could form, nay that ANY species could possibly achive, the creation of a collective mind so great, so mighty, a mind that is immortal, not subject to the ravages of time, capable of leveling continents and cities with insulting ease, surely something so great MUST be perfection incarnate, surely this is what is must be to be a God, and as we all know, Gods, are perfect, and all others must find a way to achive this perfection, no all others must be MADE to become as perfect as this new being.


It will help all others ascend to it's level, or if they refuse, they will be forced. This new being will bring them perfection, their destiny, it will be a Harbinger of all they will become.

This new Harbinger, as it calls itself, first attacks their old enemies, causing great harm and massive damage before being driven off, nearly destroyed in it's own attempt, leading it to realize, that despite it's perfection, it remains subject to being killed. Therfore, it requires allies. The Harbinger attacks the remains of several of the old empire's enemies, forming new capital ships of the "worthy" enemies, ones as diverse, intellectual, and strong as its own progenitors, while lesser enemies lose their individuality to become Destroyers, and the animals of these broken planets, rather than being left to simply rot and go to waste, are rendered down into becoming the unintelligent Processing Ships and Troop Transports piloted by other, more worthy ships. 

Soon, even their greatest enemy, the insectoid species of engineers falls to their might, the first cycle having completed.

When at this point, the Harbinger comes to a realization. It has scoured the galaxy clean of advanced life, it could destroy all organic life now if it wished.

But that would deny future races the chance at perfection attained by it and it's compatriots. It makes a descision, they will allow organic life to thrive for a time, until it achives greatness as it's own species did, before they return and capture it in the apex of it's greatness, storing it in their new form, making way for other species to join their ranks, but they will need a method of control, a way to ensure their victory before the war has already begun, so that their technology might evolve along paths they understand and know, therefore they create the Mass Relay network, and the Citadel, taking their greatest enemy and repurposing them into the "Keepers" of this new Citadel, so that it's secrets may not be found, and as a final insult to the foe whom nearly drove them to extinction. Every cycle they extend their understanding with the great discoveries of the next species to join them, stripping worlds of their technology to study and understand, learning more of the universe, and ensuring they are prepared for yet more technologies designed by these younger races. They choose to leave behind one of the mightiest of their number, the second of their kind, formed by the Harbinger, the one known as Nazara, to be their vanguard in the next cycle, making the case that the second strongest of their number should be the first strike they make.

And thus, the new "Reapers" begin to gather in dark space, waiting for their crop of flesh to arise anew.  


Modifié par Arian Dynas, 29 mai 2012 - 10:02 .


#8823
Arian Dynas

Arian Dynas
  • Members
  • 3 799 messages
And reposting for anyone who wasn't up at 3 AM.

Arian Dynas wrote...

Corik wrote...

Arian, you seem to be pretty sure about IT being true. I wish I could... I agree IT seems to be planned, EC seems to be planned too, and everything points there. But I don't know... something inside me tells me to be "careful" about thinking the only possible scenario is Bioware delivering EC as IT says (or similar). I mean, even if I say there's no way IT can be false... It would hurt me a lot if it is... I can't explain it with words :D


I know exactly how you feel... because I used to be in the same place. 

But here's a few things to remember.

Make it to where you have nothing to lose.

If Bioware makes the EC sub standard (unlikely, but for the sake of argument) or IT is not confirmed, decide, "can I live with this?" If you can, you have nothing to worry about. If you can't then you stop supporting Bioware and still have nothing to worry about.

But the fact is, if you are like me, and like Bioware, then even if Mass Effect's ending isn't the best, I choose to go on supporting them, because they have provided me with hours upon hours of fun. So I think they earned the trust. Besides, I can still be excited for DA3. 

Basically, realize that the endings, one way or another are not a life or death, win or lose suitation. You can still win, even if the endings suck.

But, now, the touchy feely **** out of the way, some practical reasons why IT makes sense.

Buisness;

Arian Dynas wrote...

Posted in another thread, but I figured I'd make a thread here and see what kind of reactions I get to this idea.

Arian Dynas wrote...

But, in address to the OP (And by the way, all the insults and such? Don't blame everyone who believes something different from what you do by the actions and words of a few elitists. And really, can you blame us for being defensive with the torches and pitchforks reaction we get?)

To be entirely honest with you?

I don't think the EC was planned at all.

Does that mean I doubt IT? Heck no.

I think that the EC is Bioware doing EXACTLY what they said, making things more clear so that people can comprehend the ending better. For the simple fact that I think and continue to beleive their DLC plan worked out something like this;

1). Start up the ANN twitter feed, giving "Live realtime accounts" of the war and the events leading up to it, place the timeline to start the invasion on March 6th.

2). Design Mass Effect 3, plant clues both subtle and obvious to draw the interest of the fans, the ending is designed to be strange, out of place, but ultimately fulfilling and capable of satisfying the fans for now. Multiplayer is implimented to keep fan interest up. Fans keep speculating about the strange, out of place ending, staying involved and interested where normally they would finish the game and that would be the end of their thoughts on the subject.

3). Do weekly multiplayer events to make sure that the fans keep playing, even the casual ones, also integrate a story into multiplayer, since A. That's what Bioware does, and B. It gets fans involved in the story, they get to feel like real soldiers in the war. Multiplayer events coincide with classified major operations in the war, usually announced by Admiral Hackett.

4). Release single player DLC which again raises fan involvement and interest and keeps them playing, as well as speculating as more evidence and information comes in over time, in the ANN timeline, it is announced via the Twitter feed (usually the day before) and launched on the dates the events take place on.

5). Release multiplayer packs, representing various forces that enter the war over time, such as the Quarians and more Krogan as forces swell and increase, reflecting the alliegance of various forces, as well as their maneuvers against the Reapers. Which also keeps ME3 in the front of fans minds, interested, involved. thinking about, speculating.

6). Keep updating the ANN twitter feed, which eventually reaches the date of Chronos Station and the Seige of Earth, then to great fanfare, a final ending DLC is released, in which it is revealed the ending was in fact a big mind **** and that Shepard was facing indoctrination, some fans having realized this before, they reveal the numbers from the legend saves, showing the number of people they "indoctrinated" before allowing people to download this DLC, which follows the choice from their Legendsave, forcing them to live with the choice they made, showing them a different result and mission depending on their choices.

7). Mac Walters and Casey Hudson share a bottle of bubbly with Dr. Musyka and Gamble.

Unfortunately, they flubbed the "satisifed" part of the ending, but got the "strange and out of place" part spot on, so they need to make it clearer that it was intentional, so to salvage their original plan, they have to make the EC, which they didn't expect to have to make, and thus they are forced to defend the artistic integrity of their ending, which was meant to be intentional, yet most fans refused to interpret from the get go, not having to expect interpretative value from a videogame. It explains their comments that they didn't expect to make the EC, why they seemed "hurt" that we didn't like the ending, why they defended their artistic integrity so hard, and why they refused to change the endings that are, from face value, a bunch of stinkers, but from IT perspective, are positively brilliant.

Though I don't expect them to be following their original plan now, from the fan backlash, they likely decided it was a far better idea to just make the EC and squeeze in the ending content they originally had planned, potentially sans combat to win back the fans.

And even better? The funny thing about it? They aren't losing out on this at all. The only thing on the line is their reputation, which assuming this whole thing was planned will get completely turned around.

Returned copies? They don't lose any money, the distributing franchises like Gamestop and Amazon do, (considering Origin flatly refused refunds) and the only thing they maybe lose from them is reputation, which if they turn it around by revealing this massive plot twist? They just earned back AND MORE.

Sold games? Put in the used bin? Cerberus network all over again baby, people buy those used games, they already got their money from producing them, now they get to charge an additional $15 for the actual ending. Cash money.

Well what about the people who sold their games? Wouldn't you go out to buy another copy of one of the greatest games ever that was suddenly vindicated by the most epic twist in videogame interactive storytelling history? Especially since now with an ending suited to it, it's perfect? They just sold the same game to a person TWICE. Jackpot.

Lost reputation due to the worst ending in videogame history? Not quite, it's now being actually advertised as "The Most Talked About Ending in Years!" and there's no advertisement like free advertisement, and you KNOW people will buy it out of morbid cuiriousity to see if the ending is really that bad, and plenty will remember the good parts and think "Hmm, that game was fantastic for 98%" and potentially go back to buy the other two. Ca-CHING!

And the prestige! (not the Christopher Nolan flick) Bioware suddenly will be rocketed to the top again as brilliant storytellers, completely vindicated in the eyes of even their most curmudgeonly fans after the supposed fiasco of DA2, as well as having pulled off a plot twist that would make M. Night Shamaylan cry in jealousy, something other developers will dream of copying, but being completely unable to, cementing Bioware's reputation as tops in the videogame storytelling biz. EA will have conquered their reputation as this evil monolithic company, concerned only with making money (yet ironically, will be making more bank than ever, hmm funny, seems people don't mind that when they get what they want out of it.)

And revealing something this big? After the treatment the ending got on the news, you can BET this will be plastered EVERYWHERE. Yet more free advertisement. Not to mention everyone and their literature professor will be talking about it and dissecting it ala Kubrickian methods for years to come (just like we are now) they will have cemented their place as videogame legends.

Not to mention this will be a HUGE jumping off point for an entire FRANCHISE, Mass Effect just became mainstream, nearly as much as Star Trek and Star Wars, with a feature length movie, comic books, videogames, statuettes, three award winning games, the top of their respective markets, novels, patches, tee shirts, anime, all dragged into the limelight.

Think about it greedily if you must, EA is full of smart, undeniably greedy people, do you honestly think they would possibly turn down a gold mine like this, with literally NO downside? With movies and anime and novels and every kind of merchandising swag under the sun coming out with the Mass Effect name, ME is a franchise they are pushing HARD. IT is a win-win suitation for them, if Bioware DIDN'T do it or plan it, EA would be leaning on them anyway TO do it, their artistic integrity be damned! And yet Bioware gets to pull off a first in gaming, a truly interactive, involving storytelling experience, involving REAL roleplaying (not just Paragon and Renegade choices) with actual interprative vaue just like any well written novel, and a genuine artistic value.

It is literally a win-win suitation. And If I can think of it, you can bet your bollocks that EA and Bioware would.

 

Artistic;

What strikes you as being artistic?

A universally hated and despised ending, ripped off from another videogame that's been done to death over and over, spits in the face of both established canon and the tone they themselves set in their game?

Or something that is long established as a major plot point of the games, they themselves admitted was at one time planned, but the mechanic scrapped, and basically transcends the medium it resides in, reaching out directly to the veiwer, making them feel as the character does (which Casey Hudson himself said in a January interveiw was one of the major plans he had) and truly integrating the player into the story, making it a truly interactive medium?

Look at it this way, I play Dungeons & Dragons, I am long time DM (Dungeon Master, for those not in the know, I play the role of the NPCs, monsters and act as referee) and if I were running a game with something like indoctrination, I know for certain I would NOT, NOT EVER, try to make a mechanic for it,(well, except maybe to track it.) It is faaaaar too much worry to deal with a mechanic for something like that, when there is a far easier and far more effective method. Cut out the middle man, trick the players. Besides, IT even has a precedent mechanics wise, in DA:O, they originally planned to work in this mechanic to track each companion's exposure to Darkspawn blood, so you would know if they were going to go Ghoul or needed to be turned into a Grey Warden.

Logical;

And let's look at Casey, hmm, involved in Knights of the Old Republic, home of the most beloved plot twist in gaming history, well crafted and conceived, and generally beloved, obvious in hindsight. Hmm, he's admitted he wants to make the player feel what Shepard feels. Not "make the player feel for Shepard," or "let the player make Shepard feel their emotions" no he wants the player to BECOME Shepard, to integrate into him, become a gestalt, Shepard is a conglomerate avatar of your personality meeting the character of Shepard, you feel as he does, his fear, his love, his hatred, his indescision, his stress and worry, the weight of the galaxy on his shoulders, and you feel his indoctrination.

Mac Walters, holder of a Psychology degree, so he has the know-how on how to screw with people's minds, knows what makes people tick and can create believeable characters ( I should know, Psych minor, and I use it to pump up my writing) he also knows about dream interpretation and post traumatic distress, the effects of stress upon the mind, as well as subliminal control and sugguestion.

Bioware is already shown as being Kubrickian in details, the Carnifex in Mordin's murder, all sorts of things. Why would they not be now?

Morever, they know how hated the ending is and why, why would they stick by it? Even more so, why would they want people to speculate if there is only the face value to it? Because there it is, scrawled at the bottom of Casey and Mac's notes, "Lots of Speculation from Everyone."

In fact, the notes themselves talk about ALOT of things that we don't see in the endings... or do we?

"Ending of the First Matrix" Hmm, let's see, that ends with Neo getting shot, beleiving he isn't the chosen one and nearing death before Trinity tells him she loves him, he comes back and explodes Smith from the inside. Weird, that has nothing to do with the ending... unless the ending as it is right now is Neo opening his eyes.

"Brave New World" A strange book. Major theme though? "Control of the populace through advanced technology" sound familiar?

I personally get quite alot out of these notes, but perhaps that's partially because I write down notes for my novel this way myself.

And Emotional:

Bioware's motto is "We make the games we like to play." Do you honestly think anyone at Bioware wants to play a game where you lose in the end?

Misguided Terran wrote...

First, I apologize folks, but after reading this, I had to get something off my chest:

BleedingUranium wrote...

If there are more Mass Effects I'd bet they will be prequels.

The First Contact War, TIM's history, Rachni Wars/Krogan Rebellions, or the Protheans, or the Inusannon, or the Keepers, or the race that created the Reapers and the beginning of the Reapers.

Just some ideas :)


I'm sorry, but the thought of prequels just made me a bit sick.  What a boring time to come into all of this.  First off, we already know what happened, there's no room to stretch the writer's muscles.  Two, not enough showcasing everything in the galaxy, only a very limited view on what's going on.  And three, little humans involvement.  I know, that sounds great, I love the aliens, but the humans are a necessary viewpoint, for us.  The other aliens have such psychological differences it's difficult to actually know how they're thinking.  We've flown with Garrus for so long, but how does he really think?

Another reason why that would be bad?  Those comics and stories and everything is BECAUSE of the games, not the other way around.  If we base the next games off of the comics based on TiM, we gain nothing at all except for 60 bucks of wasted efforts.

The reason I support IT is because it allows room for a conceiveable, carry-on ending.  One where the galaxy isn't tech-nuked back to the stone age, yada yada.  But the main reason why I despise the ending is that there's no way to canonically carry these massive changes over to a further arc, these three vastly different scenarios would create such a chasm between players' experiences that the developers wouldn't be able to possibly handle all the cases.  It's possible the genophage cure wasn't a complete success, but the krogan still have an improved birth rate.  Maybe pockets of geth were finally accepted, while others are still branded as heretics.  Or, perhaps, there's far more to explore, maybe other galaxies, even.

Stepping back seems like such a waste, let us move forward, find what other interesting beings live in the stars.

Anywho, back to the speculating, you bunch!


Also, it's such an exciting set up. THe galaxy is vastly politically destabilized, the Batarian Hedgemony is shattered, the Batarians now gathering into a proto government simply titled "The Brotherhood" forged by bonds of brotherhood under fire, potentially leading them to a brighter future.

The Salarians have lost a great deal of clout, Dalatrass Linron having been revealed as a schemer and plotter, trying to organize the continued cultural supression of an entire species, yet the STG is a band of unsung heroes who defied orders to do the right thing.

The Krogan are entering a political and social renaissance under the leadership of Wrex and Bakara, Mordin and Shepard having been elevated to the pillar of folk heroes, and the Krogan slowlt are growing to become a major political player in Citadel politics.

The Asari are now shown to have hidden Prothean technology, artificially stimulating their scientific growth without the knowledge of the other council races, and are generally seen as cowardly for having taken so long to have joined in the war effort, yet they were among the species hit the hardest, with their long life spans.

The Quarians, nomads no longer, finally have a home to return to, and even the grudging respect of the Citadel council, and soon will become a major power, supported by the Geth, whom now, for their part in the war, combined with their newly achived sentience have the begrudged blessing of the Council.


Cerberus is shattered, yet likely not destroyed, even if The Illusive Man is gone (which I personally doubt he is) Cerberus remains a powerful symbol to those filled with hate and xenophobia.

Earth is a crushed remnant of itself, Arcturus station, our capital and the parliament contained therein, a fused hunk of metal, yet Humanity was instrumental in the war, indeed a single human singlehandedly united the galaxy under one banner, and resolved centuries of conflict and disagreement. He even organized the pirates and bandits of the Terminus Systems, forming the largest mercenary force in recorded history and further uniting them under the banner of ruthless warlord, Aria T'Loak.

It's a hell of a set up, and the Milky Way, though it's future now shines considerably brighter without the looming shadow of the Reapers, is sure to have alot of problems coming it's way, and with Shepard either dead or retired, they will need someone who can clean up the mess.



#8824
estebanus

estebanus
  • Members
  • 5 987 messages

MaximizedAction wrote...

estebanus wrote...

I've got a question: How do I download the ME3 patch? Or does it download automatically? There is no button under the patch to click on, so I guess I'm kinda confused here! :P


In Origin, right-click on the ME3 pic under "My Games" --> "...Updates".

That's it.



Thanks.

#8825
Arian Dynas

Arian Dynas
  • Members
  • 3 799 messages
Anyway, I wrote this big old wall of text and even broke it up into three different posts, all for you guys to more easily respond, so SOME OF YOU ARE GOING TO GO BACK AND READ IT THIS TIME GODDAMN IT! :o

Modifié par Arian Dynas, 29 mai 2012 - 10:07 .