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[HellishFiend]

boeloe wrote...

masster blaster wrote...

How many of you on your first play through Picked Control or Synthesis? Because I did because curiosity got the better of me. That is why I think Bioware made the other two choices as they are so that they can trick us into thinking there is a way to stop this but what are you willing to sacrifices

I choose synthesis, I was swayed by promises that the geth and EDI would survive.

That's why indoctrination is so insidious. It takes advantage of an individual's natural motivations and ambitions and turns them against him/her. Only by refusing to be greedy and naive in your quest to end the Reaper threat can you soundly defeat the indoctrination process. 

Modifié par HellishFiend, 02 juin 2012 - 02:03 .

[boeloe]

byne wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

masster blaster wrote...

How many of you on your first play through Picked Control or Synthesis?

I'm one of the neanderthals who picked destroy because, uh, it's a finite resolution to the problem---and the others aren't.  

I can dance in circles around the philosophical implications, digest sound scientific reasoning behind each, and indulge in the theoretical utopian ideals that the pacifistic options entail---from meeting a singularity head-on to the positive benefits of health advancement that can come from synthesis.  And I'll still end right back at destroy, indoctrination attempt or not.  

Theoreticals only work in controlled, normal environments and under rigid stipulations. We don't have those.

Thinking about Synthesis, it really doesnt make much sense. It seems to be the Reapers' final solution to the synthetic question, yet they also are really banking on having a half-synthetic being there to help move it along.

Why would we even need to impose synthesis if organics were already able to do it on their own?

Also, what would happen if we'd thrown TIM's corpse in the beam instead of Shepard? He's part synthetic too.

Well to be fair I think they were talking about synthesis on the cellular level (DNA and all) and not so much about implants on the macrolevel. Still doesn't make any sense though.

[Arian Dynas]

Arian Dynas wrote...

MaximizedAction wrote...

In some way, even Synthesis is equivalent to control. Besides both not having a Shepard-breath scene, both are choices where the Guardian successfully convinced the player away from Destroy.

Now, consider the following: At the PAX Patrick Weekes explained, that in order to make saving the Geth an interesting choice for the player, the writers had to make the Quarians less innocent and the Geth' motivations more understandable.

And they accomplished that pretty well. Tali seemed now more of a racist, as did most of the Quarians, too. That felt like a naturally motivated shift of opinions the player has.

So the writers knew that the player's view on the previously bad guys had to be altered WAY before the actual choice had to be made, not a few minutes before that. It's a slow process to make the bad parties intentions more attractive.

That did not really happen with the idea of Controlling the Reapers. Yes, TIM always said how he thought it was important, but besides the mumbling at the end, no real arguments were given. No effort towards relativating both parties' standpoints.
Maybe I am too Paragon, but I didn't exactly feel like someone was challanging my world view in a natural way, but more in an aggressive way, forcing me into rethinking. And if I thought to much, I got a critical mission failure.

In my case, the major convincing thing that there is more to destroy and all that basically boils down to one thing. There is nothing, nothing at all that makes Destroy attractive... unless you choose to beleive the Guardian is lying. Bioware is pretty good about making every single one of their choices mean something, not having one have less meaning than the other (or at least the Mass Effect Team is) why stop now?

Figured this might bear repeating, since no one seemed to notice.

[boeloe]

HellishFiend wrote...

boeloe wrote...

masster blaster wrote...

How many of you on your first play through Picked Control or Synthesis? Because I did because curiosity got the better of me. That is why I think Bioware made the other two choices as they are so that they can trick us into thinking there is a way to stop this but what are you willing to sacrifices

I choose synthesis, I was swayed by promises that the geth and EDI would survive.

That's why indoctrination is so insidious. It takes advantage of an individual's natural motivations and ambitions and turns them against him/her. Only by refusing to be greedy and naive in your quest to end the Reaper threat can you soundly defeat the indoctrination process. 

Yeah I know, I'm kind of hoping that Bioware makes you lose the game if you made the wrong choice.

[HellishFiend]

boeloe wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...


That's why indoctrination is so insidious. It takes advantage of an individual's natural motivations and ambitions and turns them against him/her. Only by refusing to be greedy and naive in your quest to end the Reaper threat can you soundly defeat the indoctrination process. 

Yeah I know, I'm kind of hoping that Bioware makes you lose the game if you made the wrong choice.

Though it would be nice if there were some way to still win based on choices that you could have only made back in ME1 and 2 (such as saving the Rachni queen, etc), though not with as ideal an outcome as if you'd chosen correctly at the end. 

[boeloe]

HellishFiend wrote...

boeloe wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...


That's why indoctrination is so insidious. It takes advantage of an individual's natural motivations and ambitions and turns them against him/her. Only by refusing to be greedy and naive in your quest to end the Reaper threat can you soundly defeat the indoctrination process. 

Yeah I know, I'm kind of hoping that Bioware makes you lose the game if you made the wrong choice.

Though it would be nice if there were some way to still win based on choices that you could have only made back in ME1 and 2 (such as saving the Rachni queen, etc), though not with as ideal an outcome as if you'd chosen correctly at the end. 

I can imagine a lot players will take it badly if they load up the dlc only to see a critical mission failure. But it just makes the emotional impact that much higher. I basically spend a 100+ hours with this Shepard playthrough trying to save the galaxy... and I may have lost. Knowing that you can lose makes it more exciting I guess

[HellishFiend]

boeloe wrote...

Players will take it badly if they load up the dlc only to see a critical mission failure. But it just makes the emotional impact that much higher. I basically spend a 100+ hours with this Shepard playthrough trying to save the galaxy... and I may have lost. Knowing that you can lose makes it more exciting I guess

LOL, that would be epic if choosers of blue or green went straight to a Critical Mission Failure screen immediately upon loading the EC.  

Modifié par HellishFiend, 02 juin 2012 - 02:35 .

[byne]

HellishFiend wrote...

boeloe wrote...

Players will take it badly if they load up the dlc only to see a critical mission failure. But it just makes the emotional impact that much higher. I basically spend a 100+ hours with this Shepard playthrough trying to save the galaxy... and I may have lost. Knowing that you can lose makes it more exciting I guess

LOL, that would be epic if choosers of blue or green went straight to a Critical Mission Failure screen immediately upon loading the EC.  

I still say the EC should alter Synthesis to be like it is in this video.

[boeloe]

byne wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

boeloe wrote...

Players will take it badly if they load up the dlc only to see a critical mission failure. But it just makes the emotional impact that much higher. I basically spend a 100+ hours with this Shepard playthrough trying to save the galaxy... and I may have lost. Knowing that you can lose makes it more exciting I guess

LOL, that would be epic if choosers of blue or green went straight to a Critical Mission Failure screen immediately upon loading the EC.  

I still say the EC should alter Synthesis to be like it is in this video.

Lucky me then, that Bioware won't change the current endings.

[DJBare]

On my first play through I got suckered into synthesis despite my better judgement, the reapers(Bioware) definitely indoctrinated me.

[OneWithTheAssassins]

Whats new peeps?

[BleedingUranium]

boeloe wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

boeloe wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...


That's why indoctrination is so insidious. It takes advantage of an individual's natural motivations and ambitions and turns them against him/her. Only by refusing to be greedy and naive in your quest to end the Reaper threat can you soundly defeat the indoctrination process. 

Yeah I know, I'm kind of hoping that Bioware makes you lose the game if you made the wrong choice.

Though it would be nice if there were some way to still win based on choices that you could have only made back in ME1 and 2 (such as saving the Rachni queen, etc), though not with as ideal an outcome as if you'd chosen correctly at the end. 

I can imagine a lot players will take it badly if they load up the dlc only to see a critical mission failure. But it just makes the emotional impact that much higher. I basically spend a 100+ hours with this Shepard playthrough trying to save the galaxy... and I may have lost. Knowing that you can lose makes it more exciting I guess

I've always found it very interesting, and suspicious, that no matter how you play, including rushing the whole game, doing no side quests, letting everyone die (etc), you can't lose! Not matter how low your EMS is, the Reapers are beaten, from a literalist point of view.

In Mass Effect, where all of your friends, or just random people you meet, can die (pretty much), even YOU can die in ME2, you can't lose to the Reapers???

[balance5050]

DJBare wrote...

On my first play through I got suckered into synthesis despite my better judgement, the reapers(Bioware) definitely indoctrinated me.

Me too, but it was just cause I was curious, it was like "this I gotta see."

[DJBare]

balance5050 wrote...

DJBare wrote...

On my first play through I got suckered into synthesis despite my better judgement, the reapers(Bioware) definitely indoctrinated me.

Me too, but it was just cause I was curious, it was like "this I gotta see."

Mine was defintely because I was unwilling to sacrifice EDI and the geth, it was not until I started reading the forums about possible deception did I think the little sh*t might be lying through his sparkly teeth, the indoctrination worked well on me I'm ashamed to say.

[Turbo_J]

DJBare wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

DJBare wrote...

On my first play through I got suckered into synthesis despite my better judgement, the reapers(Bioware) definitely indoctrinated me.

Me too, but it was just cause I was curious, it was like "this I gotta see."

Mine was defintely because I was unwilling to sacrifice EDI and the geth, it was not until I started reading the forums about possible deception did I think the little sh*t might be lying through his sparkly teeth, the indoctrination worked well on me I'm ashamed to say.

Yep, played right into their hands. I heard the words of Shep echoing from ME2... and modified them... I won't let ego, emotion, or fear change who I am what I'm here to do.

EDI also promised she'd kill herself if we lost the war anyway... The Geth, now ALIVE  and with free will would also likely sacrifice themselves given Legion disseminated HIS personality to them and, as an individual at the time of his death would never subjugate himself to the Reapers again.

Starbrat actually never says Shep will die with destroy... just 'even you are partly synthetic.'

Control: 'You will die.'

Synthesis: 'You will die.'

Destroy: 'Even you are part synthetic.'

It troubles me that so many are willing to jump on the proverbial sword for C and S but balk at the IMPLIED or INFERRED chance of death for the destroy choice... I think the '...destroy all synthetics, even the Geth.' that really messes with their heads though... at least for those who saved them.

Legion is, was and always will be my friend. What would he do in Shepard's place? Freedom or death.

[Trollgunner]

Picked synthesis because just wanted to see what is down there ''' Then He just started running towards it. Fail, wanted destroy ending.

[Big Bad]

Arian Dynas wrote...

Arian Dynas wrote...

MaximizedAction wrote...

In some way, even Synthesis is equivalent to control. Besides both not having a Shepard-breath scene, both are choices where the Guardian successfully convinced the player away from Destroy.

Now, consider the following: At the PAX Patrick Weekes explained, that in order to make saving the Geth an interesting choice for the player, the writers had to make the Quarians less innocent and the Geth' motivations more understandable.

And they accomplished that pretty well. Tali seemed now more of a racist, as did most of the Quarians, too. That felt like a naturally motivated shift of opinions the player has.

So the writers knew that the player's view on the previously bad guys had to be altered WAY before the actual choice had to be made, not a few minutes before that. It's a slow process to make the bad parties intentions more attractive.

That did not really happen with the idea of Controlling the Reapers. Yes, TIM always said how he thought it was important, but besides the mumbling at the end, no real arguments were given. No effort towards relativating both parties' standpoints.
Maybe I am too Paragon, but I didn't exactly feel like someone was challanging my world view in a natural way, but more in an aggressive way, forcing me into rethinking. And if I thought to much, I got a critical mission failure.

In my case, the major convincing thing that there is more to destroy and all that basically boils down to one thing. There is nothing, nothing at all that makes Destroy attractive... unless you choose to beleive the Guardian is lying. Bioware is pretty good about making every single one of their choices mean something, not having one have less meaning than the other (or at least the Mass Effect Team is) why stop now?

Figured this might bear repeating, since no one seemed to notice.

Yeah, I think that's a pretty good point.  Starbinger does go out of his way to paint destroy as bleakly as possible.  That, along with the sudden, inexplicable decision to present control as the "paragon" option, are pretty good clues that something fishy is going down.

[malakim2099]

Turbo_J wrote...

DJBare wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

DJBare wrote...

On my first play through I got suckered into synthesis despite my better judgement, the reapers(Bioware) definitely indoctrinated me.

Me too, but it was just cause I was curious, it was like "this I gotta see."

Mine was defintely because I was unwilling to sacrifice EDI and the geth, it was not until I started reading the forums about possible deception did I think the little sh*t might be lying through his sparkly teeth, the indoctrination worked well on me I'm ashamed to say.

Yep, played right into their hands. I heard the words of Shep echoing from ME2... and modified them... I won't let ego, emotion, or fear change who I am what I'm here to do.

EDI also promised she'd kill herself if we lost the war anyway... The Geth, now ALIVE  and with free will would also likely sacrifice themselves given Legion disseminated HIS personality to them and, as an individual at the time of his death would never subjugate himself to the Reapers again.

Starbrat actually never says Shep will die with destroy... just 'even you are partly synthetic.'

Control: 'You will die.'

Synthesis: 'You will die.'

Destroy: 'Even you are part synthetic.'

It troubles me that so many are willing to jump on the proverbial sword for C and S but balk at the IMPLIED or INFERRED chance of death for the destroy choice... I think the '...destroy all synthetics, even the Geth.' that really messes with their heads though... at least for those who saved them.

Legion is, was and always will be my friend. What would he do in Shepard's place? Freedom or death.

Legion says it best, really, "Geth build our own future. The heretics asked the Old Machines to give them the future. They are no longer part of us."

[Trollgunner]

Some pages ago I asked about TIM's "incredible power to control humans" no one answered yet. I'll ask again, do you think that his ability to control you and Miranda's father statement about finishing "smth" to control indocrinated, are connected?

[Arian Dynas]

Also, for your amusement, I figured you guys might get a kick out of this.

Flight of Dragons

I had quite forgotten this movie. But hey, if you wanna see magic defeated by science ("HE BLINDED ME WITH SCIENCE!") this is the place.

Modifié par Arian Dynas, 02 juin 2012 - 04:21 .

[prettz]

Arian Dynas wrote...

Also, for your amusement, I figured you guys might get a kick out of this.

Flight of Dragons

I had quite forgotten this movie. But hey, if you wanna see magic defeated by science ("HE BLINDED ME WITH SCIENCE!") this is the place.

It has to have been over 2 decades since I saw that.

[Arian Dynas]

So I'm back from my month long trip. You guys still believing in Indoctrination theory? I can't believe you guys are still following that stupid idea.

EDIT: Why are there posts with my name in them? Who's been usng my account?

I can't beleive that someone coul-

"Not funny."

"I almost had you. I will alter my chronometer for better timing."

Modifié par Arian Dynas, 02 juin 2012 - 05:08 .

[Arian Dynas]

Nuts. Was hoping I would get someone with that. I may have to try again at a more high traffic hour.

[byne]

malakim2099 wrote...

Legion says it best, really, "Geth build our own future. The heretics asked the Old Machines to give them the future. They are no longer part of us."

Legion is just full of good quotes.

Like when he explains the geth are building a Dyson Sphere to load themselves into:

Shep: So you're building a giant spaceship to load yourselves into. Sounds like a Reaper to me.
Legion: We bear no malice towards organics. You are different, but we accept you. The Reapers are more your future than ours.

Meanwhile, on the Citadel:

Godchild: RAWR SYNTHETICS ARE THE DEVIL! THEY WILL EAT YOUR BABIES!

Like 90% of the synthetics you ever encounter are either not hostile to organics, or just minding their own business.

8% are hostile geth being controlled by the Reapers

1% is the Overlord AI, which was driven by organics to try and destroy the galaxy, and wouldnt have done so if they'd left it alone.

The final 1% is that stupid AI on the Citadel in ME1 that was stealing credits and then blew up.

It was all 'Organics will always try to destroy synthetics! It is inevitable! *boom*'

Wait a second, an AI using faulty logic on board the Citadel?! That AI must have been a friend of Godchild's.

[byne]

Arian Dynas wrote...

Nuts. Was hoping I would get someone with that. I may have to try again at a more high traffic hour.

Plus if you're gonna try doing that, don't insinuate someone else has used your account, make it seem like you were trolling us all along, putting massive amounts of effort into being the most dedicated troll ever.