55528 réponses à ce sujet

[HellishFiend]

RavenEyry wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

Exactly. Even if his theory were accurate, it would only increase the implausibility of the face-value context....

It also proves Mr. Sparkle lies because he says Shep's on the citadel. If he lied about something as inconsequential as that, what else is he lying about.

I actually do think that Starbinger never tells a flat-out lie. The problem is, he says things that have obvious face-vaue implications, but can also be interpreted in another way that isnt obvious at first. 

"Even you are partly synthetic" - Truth, implying he will die, but not explicitly stating it
"You will die. You will control us, but you will lose everything you have" - Truth if the "Shepard becoming reaper consciousness" theory is correct, implying he will control ALL the reapers, but not explicitly stating it
"All organic and synthetic life will be combined into a new framework" - Truth, implying the fairytale ending we see afterwards, but could just as easily be interpeted as being harvested and gooified into a Reaper. 
"I am the Catalyst" - Possibly truth if the Crucible is really a reaper trap. In that case a Reaper would be needed to activate it. 

And those are just a few examples. You can do the same with every sentence that comes out of his mouth. 

[EpyonX3]

byne wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...


No offense, but I feel no compulsion to answer your questions. You've been here long enough to know the answers yourself, and reiterating would just be trying to sway your opinion with knowledge you already have. That fits the definition of pointless quite well.

Sorry you feel that way, but even you must admit that IT is a huge topic full of many obscure references. It's possible I may have missed this one.

Epyon I have to be honest, you lost a lot of credibility when you basically decided to renounce IT entirely on the grounds that we disagreed with your theory. If you base your own opinion on the validation you receive from others, that indicates to me that you dont feel very strongly about that opinion in the first place. That's why I dont feel inclined to get into an opinion-swaying discussion with you, especially considering the information youre asking me for is easily found anywhere that talks about IT. 

Incorrect. I renounced IT based on my thoery, which has been refined thanks to some feedback, and not because you guys disagreed.

I've always been honest about my intentions here and how I felt towards the posters here. I don't know why my stance has less credibility than anyone else here.

Do you actually have a fully fleshed out theory now? Last I heard you thought Shep was on the Crucible, not the Citadel, but a change in locations really hardly constitutes an entire theory.

I dont mean that in a rude way or anything, so I hope it doesnt come across like that.

Not at all Byne I never take your posts that way.

Here's my thread:http://social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/12261111/1

[paxxton]

...and only about Star Wars.

Modifié par paxxton, 04 juin 2012 - 08:35 .

[Fingertrip]

paxxton wrote...

Fingertrip wrote...

And there you have it, no announcement at EA's conference. Can we please drop it, like it should have been dropped since people began speculating about it, eventho they said nothing would be announced?

The conference has just started.

It won't be announced. 

[balance5050]

paxxton wrote...

...and only about Star Wars.

FUUUUUUUuuuuuu....

[xsdob]

So...I know I'm probably the least wanted person in this thread right now, and for perfectly justifiable reasons. But like I posted earlier I am deeply sorry for what happened last night and hope there isn't any hard feelings about it.

I simply have a single question, and that is if shepard manages to destroy the mental construct world by picking destroy will it affect harbinger by doing so? He seems to be the one who is creating the illusion, form my limited understanding of the IT, so by picking destroy does it mean that harbingers mind is destroy like what happened to sovereign when saren's body was destroyed?

[EpyonX3]

balance5050 wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...


No offense, but I feel no compulsion to answer your questions. You've been here long enough to know the answers yourself, and reiterating would just be trying to sway your opinion with knowledge you already have. That fits the definition of pointless quite well.

Sorry you feel that way, but even you must admit that IT is a huge topic full of many obscure references. It's possible I may have missed this one.

Epyon I have to be honest, you lost a lot of credibility when you basically decided to renounce IT entirely on the grounds that we disagreed with your theory. If you base your own opinion on the validation you receive from others, that indicates to me that you dont feel very strongly about that opinion in the first place. That's why I dont feel inclined to get into an opinion-swaying discussion with you, especially considering the information youre asking me for is easily found anywhere that talks about IT. 

I remember that, he was being a sensitive boy that day, acting like he wasn't even go to post here anymore. He cried wolf obviously.

Lol I was a little annoyed I admit. But I understood that it had no place in the IT thread and I ended the conversation and made my own thread per your suggestion and continued with the IT thread.

But what that has to do with me discussing IT or even having an opinion here I don't know. Am I not allowed to ask questions anymore?

[dreamgazer]

HellishFiend wrote...

I actually do think that Starbinger never tells a flat-out lie. The problem is, he says things that have obvious face-vaue implications, but can also be interpreted in another way that isnt obvious at first. 

"Even you are partly synthetic" - Truth, implying he will die, but not explicitly stating it
"You will die. You will control us, but you will lose everything you have" - Truth if the "Shepard becoming reaper consciousness" theory is correct, implying he will control ALL the reapers, but not explicitly stating it
"All organic and synthetic life will be combined into a new framework" - Truth, implying the fairytale ending we see afterwards, but could just as easily be interpeted as being harvested and gooified into a Reaper. 
"I am the Catalyst" - Possibly truth if the Crucible is really a reaper trap. In that case a Reaper would be needed to activate it. 

And those are just a few examples. You can do the same with every sentence that comes out of his mouth. 

"You can wipe out all synthetic life ... if you want.  Including the geth.  Even you are partly synthetic".

Yeah, he never never says they're going to be eliminated, nor do we see a deactivated EDI or geth.  Never says Shepard will actually be destroyed either, only implied it. 

He also never says there will be peace in synthesis, only that the cycle will end.  And he also never says that Shepard will maintain control of the Reapers forever.  It's playing in semantics, but, hell, this is a big conflict and BioWare know what they're doing with words and dialogue. 

None of his words can be looked at as a direct lie---unless we find out that the relays haven't really been destroyed. Currently, he's a politician.

Modifié par dreamgazer, 04 juin 2012 - 08:50 .

[balance5050]

xsdob wrote...

So...I know I'm probably the least wanted person in this thread right now, and for perfectly justifiable reasons. But like I posted earlier I am deeply sorry for what happened last night and hope there isn't any hard feelings about it.

I simply have a single question, and that is if shepard manages to destroy the mental construct world by picking destroy will it affect harbinger by doing so? He seems to be the one who is creating the illusion, form my limited understanding of the IT, so by picking destroy does it mean that harbingers mind is destroy like what happened to sovereign when saren's body was destroyed?

In the codex it says that the reapers no longer have this weakness I believe.

[paxxton]

balance5050 wrote...

paxxton wrote...

...and only about Star Wars.

FUUUUUUUuuuuuu....

Maybe they left it as a surprise for the end of the show.

Modifié par paxxton, 04 juin 2012 - 08:41 .

[Corik]

xsdob wrote...

So...I know I'm probably the least wanted person in this thread right now, and for perfectly justifiable reasons. But like I posted earlier I am deeply sorry for what happened last night and hope there isn't any hard feelings about it.

I simply have a single question, and that is if shepard manages to destroy the mental construct world by picking destroy will it affect harbinger by doing so? He seems to be the one who is creating the illusion, form my limited understanding of the IT, so by picking destroy does it mean that harbingers mind is destroy like what happened to sovereign when saren's body was destroyed?

That would be enough for me. With the fleet destroying it afterwards while his defenses are down... I think it could be a perfectly fine solution for a Harbinger/Shepard confrontation.

[balance5050]

EpyonX3 wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...


No offense, but I feel no compulsion to answer your questions. You've been here long enough to know the answers yourself, and reiterating would just be trying to sway your opinion with knowledge you already have. That fits the definition of pointless quite well.

Sorry you feel that way, but even you must admit that IT is a huge topic full of many obscure references. It's possible I may have missed this one.

Epyon I have to be honest, you lost a lot of credibility when you basically decided to renounce IT entirely on the grounds that we disagreed with your theory. If you base your own opinion on the validation you receive from others, that indicates to me that you dont feel very strongly about that opinion in the first place. That's why I dont feel inclined to get into an opinion-swaying discussion with you, especially considering the information youre asking me for is easily found anywhere that talks about IT. 

I remember that, he was being a sensitive boy that day, acting like he wasn't even go to post here anymore. He cried wolf obviously.

Lol I was a little annoyed I admit. But I understood that it had no place in the IT thread and I ended the conversation and made my own thread per your suggestion and continued with the IT thread.

But what that has to do with me discussing IT or even having an opinion here I don't know. Am I not allowed to ask questions anymore?

Actually the thoery would kinda belong here because if it's true, it actually makes I.T. even more plausible because the crucible explodes with Shepard inside.

[HellishFiend]

xsdob wrote...

So...I know I'm probably the least wanted person in this thread right now, and for perfectly justifiable reasons. But like I posted earlier I am deeply sorry for what happened last night and hope there isn't any hard feelings about it.

I simply have a single question, and that is if shepard manages to destroy the mental construct world by picking destroy will it affect harbinger by doing so? He seems to be the one who is creating the illusion, form my limited understanding of the IT, so by picking destroy does it mean that harbingers mind is destroy like what happened to sovereign when saren's body was destroyed?

If IT is accurate, someone successfully breaking indoctrination the way Shepard does might be an unprecedented event. In that case we really dont know what the outcome would be. I, for one, think it will be something that none of us see coming. 

[dreamgazer]

xsdob wrote...

I simply have a single question, and that is if shepard manages to destroy the mental construct world by picking destroy will it affect harbinger by doing so? He seems to be the one who is creating the illusion, form my limited understanding of the IT, so by picking destroy does it mean that harbingers mind is destroy like what happened to sovereign when saren's body was destroyed?

Not sure about that.  The other posters might have a better grasp, but I don't think it'd have any direct effect on Harbinger.

All that can really be done, I think, is to look back at what happens when you destroy quadrants in the geth's concensus.

[HellishFiend]

dreamgazer wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

I actually do think that Starbinger never tells a flat-out lie. The problem is, he says things that have obvious face-vaue implications, but can also be interpreted in another way that isnt obvious at first. 

"Even you are partly synthetic" - Truth, implying he will die, but not explicitly stating it
"You will die. You will control us, but you will lose everything you have" - Truth if the "Shepard becoming reaper consciousness" theory is correct, implying he will control ALL the reapers, but not explicitly stating it
"All organic and synthetic life will be combined into a new framework" - Truth, implying the fairytale ending we see afterwards, but could just as easily be interpeted as being harvested and gooified into a Reaper. 
"I am the Catalyst" - Possibly truth if the Crucible is really a reaper trap. In that case a Reaper would be needed to activate it. 

And those are just a few examples. You can do the same with every sentence that comes out of his mouth. 

"You can wipe out all synthetic life ... if you want.  Including the geth.  Even you are partly synthetic".

Yeah, he never never says they're going to be eliminated, nor do we see a deactivated EDI or geth.  Never says Shepard will actually be destroyed either, only implied it. 

He also never says there will be peace in synthesis, only that the cycle will end.  And he also never says that Shepard will maintain control of the Reapers forever.  It's playing in semantics, but, hell, this is a big conflict and BioWare know what they're doing with words and dialogue. 

None of his words can be looked at as a direct lie---unless we find out that the relays have really been destroyed. Currently, he's a politician.

Yep, exactly. Indoctrination is, in a sense, a game of "moral semantics". Taking your own morals and changing the semantics so that they are exploitable by the Reapers. So it makes sense that verbal semantics are part of the process. As in my sig, I believe that overcoming indoctrination relies on not only a strong force of will, but incorruptible morals.

[EpyonX3]

balance5050 wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...


No offense, but I feel no compulsion to answer your questions. You've been here long enough to know the answers yourself, and reiterating would just be trying to sway your opinion with knowledge you already have. That fits the definition of pointless quite well.

Sorry you feel that way, but even you must admit that IT is a huge topic full of many obscure references. It's possible I may have missed this one.

Epyon I have to be honest, you lost a lot of credibility when you basically decided to renounce IT entirely on the grounds that we disagreed with your theory. If you base your own opinion on the validation you receive from others, that indicates to me that you dont feel very strongly about that opinion in the first place. That's why I dont feel inclined to get into an opinion-swaying discussion with you, especially considering the information youre asking me for is easily found anywhere that talks about IT. 

I remember that, he was being a sensitive boy that day, acting like he wasn't even go to post here anymore. He cried wolf obviously.

Lol I was a little annoyed I admit. But I understood that it had no place in the IT thread and I ended the conversation and made my own thread per your suggestion and continued with the IT thread.

But what that has to do with me discussing IT or even having an opinion here I don't know. Am I not allowed to ask questions anymore?

Actually the thoery would kinda belong here because if it's true, it actually makes I.T. even more plausible because the crucible explodes with Shepard inside.

Well whether it does or not isn't really the point at the moment. The original point got burried under all of this and I only got one real response to it which was a good point.

[EpyonX3]

About E3....

Starwars? Really Bioware?

[balance5050]

EpyonX3 wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...


No offense, but I feel no compulsion to answer your questions. You've been here long enough to know the answers yourself, and reiterating would just be trying to sway your opinion with knowledge you already have. That fits the definition of pointless quite well.

Sorry you feel that way, but even you must admit that IT is a huge topic full of many obscure references. It's possible I may have missed this one.

Epyon I have to be honest, you lost a lot of credibility when you basically decided to renounce IT entirely on the grounds that we disagreed with your theory. If you base your own opinion on the validation you receive from others, that indicates to me that you dont feel very strongly about that opinion in the first place. That's why I dont feel inclined to get into an opinion-swaying discussion with you, especially considering the information youre asking me for is easily found anywhere that talks about IT. 

I remember that, he was being a sensitive boy that day, acting like he wasn't even go to post here anymore. He cried wolf obviously.

Lol I was a little annoyed I admit. But I understood that it had no place in the IT thread and I ended the conversation and made my own thread per your suggestion and continued with the IT thread.

But what that has to do with me discussing IT or even having an opinion here I don't know. Am I not allowed to ask questions anymore?

Actually the thoery would kinda belong here because if it's true, it actually makes I.T. even more plausible because the crucible explodes with Shepard inside.

Well whether it does or not isn't really the point at the moment. The original point got burried under all of this and I only got one real response to it which was a good point.

Well the point of the thread we are currently in is I.T. and its probablilty, so.... stay on topic?

[MegumiAzusa]

Turbo_J wrote...

MaximizedAction wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

Turbo_J wrote...

...

The Prothians TAUGHT them how to use them effectively.... did they give them the ability to eat too, along with those seeds.

You are making an assumption. He never said we genetically alter you, providing you with biotic powers. They were primitives... would you give humans, who had not even learned to sow fields, Biotic abilities if they didn't have them to a degree already. Showing someone how to plant fields based on season and use Biotics for more than mating is not Genemoding them.

Please read the Codex entry on Thessia.

But the Codex doesn't take into account the revelations that take place on Thessia with Javik.  I could swear that I remember hearing dialogue from him about how the Goddess Athame gave the Asari the gift of Biotics after years of genetic research.

From the Mass Effect wiki:

Among those "gifts" was the asari's natural ability to develop biotics, which was in reality the product of years of Prothean genetic research and manipulation.

I was just going to quote the Wiki... I don't believe it. It does not make sense that it would be necessary when most life of the planet had biotic abilities or resistance.

I deleted Javik anyway, so I guess in my game world, it never happened.

It also does not answer the question of how Asari could possibly reprodue without inherent Biotic abilities. Maybe the genemods sped up the process, but I think they were always heading in that direction. Look what happens to Humans exposed to Eezo. Cancer or Cake.

Edit: Spelling/Typo

To quote the game:
Liara: "Not very useful. It talks about Athame's guide granting us the gift of biotics as a reward for worshipping her."
Javik: "That 'gift' involved years of genetic research."
Liara: "I... this is almost too much to take."

[EpyonX3]

balance5050 wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...


No offense, but I feel no compulsion to answer your questions. You've been here long enough to know the answers yourself, and reiterating would just be trying to sway your opinion with knowledge you already have. That fits the definition of pointless quite well.

Sorry you feel that way, but even you must admit that IT is a huge topic full of many obscure references. It's possible I may have missed this one.

Epyon I have to be honest, you lost a lot of credibility when you basically decided to renounce IT entirely on the grounds that we disagreed with your theory. If you base your own opinion on the validation you receive from others, that indicates to me that you dont feel very strongly about that opinion in the first place. That's why I dont feel inclined to get into an opinion-swaying discussion with you, especially considering the information youre asking me for is easily found anywhere that talks about IT. 

I remember that, he was being a sensitive boy that day, acting like he wasn't even go to post here anymore. He cried wolf obviously.

Lol I was a little annoyed I admit. But I understood that it had no place in the IT thread and I ended the conversation and made my own thread per your suggestion and continued with the IT thread.

But what that has to do with me discussing IT or even having an opinion here I don't know. Am I not allowed to ask questions anymore?

Actually the thoery would kinda belong here because if it's true, it actually makes I.T. even more plausible because the crucible explodes with Shepard inside.

Well whether it does or not isn't really the point at the moment. The original point got burried under all of this and I only got one real response to it which was a good point.

Well the point of the thread we are currently in is I.T. and its probablilty, so.... stay on topic?

No it was on topic until Hellish replied. It was why didn't biowaire include more indoctrination into Shepard's conversations, especially with the conversations with TIM?

One conversation brought to my attention about Shepard asking Hackett about TIM's plan. I admit I forgot about that one but is that really enough?

[HellishFiend]

MegumiAzusa wrote...

To quote the game:
Liara: "Not very useful. It talks about Athame's guide granting us the gift of biotics as a reward for worshipping her."
Javik: "That 'gift' involved years of genetic research."
Liara: "I... this is almost too much to take."

It's shocking to me just how far the Reapers let civilizations advance before harvesting them. 

[HellishFiend]

EpyonX3 wrote...

No it was on topic until Hellish replied. It was why didn't biowaire include more indoctrination into Shepard's conversations, especially with the conversations with TIM?

One conversation brought to my attention about Shepard asking Hackett about TIM's plan. I admit I forgot about that one but is that really enough?

The game is laced with foreshadowing and wordplay. If you commit a playthrough to looking at everything with the mindset of foreshadowing and indoctrination, its literally in almost every conversation.

In any other game this would certainly qualify as tin-foil hatting, but NOT in Mass Effect. Not when it comes to something like Indoctrination. 

[balance5050]

EpyonX3 wrote...

No it was on topic until Hellish replied. It was why didn't biowaire include more indoctrination into Shepard's conversations, especially with the conversations with TIM?

One conversation brought to my attention about Shepard asking Hackett about TIM's plan. I admit I forgot about that one but is that really enough?

First of all, everyone I knew debated whether TIM was indoc back in ME2 days. Everything he did was Shady and it always seemed like he was throwing you into a trap, and it's fairly obvious he's indoc by the end of ME3....

Modifié par balance5050, 04 juin 2012 - 08:56 .

[balance5050]

HellishFiend wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

To quote the game:
Liara: "Not very useful. It talks about Athame's guide granting us the gift of biotics as a reward for worshipping her."
Javik: "That 'gift' involved years of genetic research."
Liara: "I... this is almost too much to take."

It's shocking to me just how far the Reapers let civilizations advance before harvesting them. 

I personally think that as cycle progressed there were more and more reapers, which means that the reapers needed more and more fuel as time went on, I think 50000 is just the current estimate and it used to be less. The farther you let the civilations go the more populated the citadel and planets become, in turn creating more reaper food...

[EpyonX3]

balance5050 wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

No it was on topic until Hellish replied. It was why didn't biowaire include more indoctrination into Shepard's conversations, especially with the conversations with TIM?

One conversation brought to my attention about Shepard asking Hackett about TIM's plan. I admit I forgot about that one but is that really enough?

First of all, everyone I knew debated whether TIM was indoc back in ME2 days. Everything he did was Shady and it always seemed like he was throwing you into a trap, and it's fairly obvious he's indoc by the end of ME3....

I know that's not what I'm getting at. If Shepard is undergoing indoctrination, there should be an increasingly amount of odd choices in the coversation menus, especially with TIM. But in every conversation, including the end, Shepard is against all TIM is and the reapers in Paragon and Renegade.