55528 réponses à ce sujet

[balance5050]

HellishFiend wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

No it was on topic until Hellish replied. It was why didn't biowaire include more indoctrination into Shepard's conversations, especially with the conversations with TIM?

One conversation brought to my attention about Shepard asking Hackett about TIM's plan. I admit I forgot about that one but is that really enough?

The game is laced with foreshadowing and wordplay. If you commit a playthrough to looking at everything with the mindset of foreshadowing and indoctrination, its literally in almost every conversation.

In any other game this would certainly qualify as tin-foil hatting, but NOT in Mass Effect. Not when it comes to something like Indoctrination. 

Almost every major conversation has indoc foreshadowing.

Ashley: How would you even know if you were bing controlled? How do you fight something that worms its way into your head"

Vega: The whole citadel convo and "do you hear that buzzing?"

Garrus: "That's reaper tech alright, my brain hurts just looking at it."

And many more....

[balance5050]

EpyonX3 wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

No it was on topic until Hellish replied. It was why didn't biowaire include more indoctrination into Shepard's conversations, especially with the conversations with TIM?

One conversation brought to my attention about Shepard asking Hackett about TIM's plan. I admit I forgot about that one but is that really enough?

First of all, everyone I knew debated whether TIM was indoc back in ME2 days. Everything he did was Shady and it always seemed like he was throwing you into a trap, and it's fairly obvious he's indoc by the end of ME3....

I know that's not what I'm getting at. If Shepard is undergoing indoctrination, there should be an increasingly amount of odd choices in the coversation menus, especially with TIM. But in every conversation, including the end, Shepard is against all TIM is and the reapers in Paragon and Renegade.

People start to see it after Thessia, Shepards will is his defining characteristic and his squaddies only see it start to fade during the final missions.

Modifié par balance5050, 04 juin 2012 - 09:04 .

[EpyonX3]

HellishFiend wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

No it was on topic until Hellish replied. It was why didn't biowaire include more indoctrination into Shepard's conversations, especially with the conversations with TIM?

One conversation brought to my attention about Shepard asking Hackett about TIM's plan. I admit I forgot about that one but is that really enough?

The game is laced with foreshadowing and wordplay. If you commit a playthrough to looking at everything with the mindset of foreshadowing and indoctrination, its literally in almost every conversation.

In any other game this would certainly qualify as tin-foil hatting, but NOT in Mass Effect. Not when it comes to something like Indoctrination. 

The bolded is the problem. I can commit a playthrough to having ME be one entire sex joke if I keep my mindset a certain way. This shouldn't have to be done, hence my original point, if IT was intended, they did it poorly.

[HellishFiend]

EpyonX3 wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

No it was on topic until Hellish replied. It was why didn't biowaire include more indoctrination into Shepard's conversations, especially with the conversations with TIM?

One conversation brought to my attention about Shepard asking Hackett about TIM's plan. I admit I forgot about that one but is that really enough?

First of all, everyone I knew debated whether TIM was indoc back in ME2 days. Everything he did was Shady and it always seemed like he was throwing you into a trap, and it's fairly obvious he's indoc by the end of ME3....

I know that's not what I'm getting at. If Shepard is undergoing indoctrination, there should be an increasingly amount of odd choices in the coversation menus, especially with TIM. But in every conversation, including the end, Shepard is against all TIM is and the reapers in Paragon and Renegade.

Again that is missing the point of IT. If it were as simple as Indoctrinating Shepard, the video game character, you would be right. There would be an increasing amount of oddities until it became obvious that's what was happening, and giving the player a chance to overcome it. 

The point of IT is that it's the player undergoing indoctrination, which means the clues have to be subtle enough to where you DONT notice them the first time around. 

[HellishFiend]

EpyonX3 wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

The game is laced with foreshadowing and wordplay. If you commit a playthrough to looking at everything with the mindset of foreshadowing and indoctrination, its literally in almost every conversation.

In any other game this would certainly qualify as tin-foil hatting, but NOT in Mass Effect. Not when it comes to something like Indoctrination. 

The bolded is the problem. I can commit a playthrough to having ME be one entire sex joke if I keep my mindset a certain way. This shouldn't have to be done, hence my original point, if IT was intended, they did it poorly.

You're welcome to that opinion, if you please. 

[masster blaster]

Are any of you going to watch E3 this week and next week.

[EpyonX3]

balance5050 wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

No it was on topic until Hellish replied. It was why didn't biowaire include more indoctrination into Shepard's conversations, especially with the conversations with TIM?

One conversation brought to my attention about Shepard asking Hackett about TIM's plan. I admit I forgot about that one but is that really enough?

The game is laced with foreshadowing and wordplay. If you commit a playthrough to looking at everything with the mindset of foreshadowing and indoctrination, its literally in almost every conversation.

In any other game this would certainly qualify as tin-foil hatting, but NOT in Mass Effect. Not when it comes to something like Indoctrination. 

Almost every major conversation has indoc foreshadowing.

Ashley: How would you even know if you were bing controlled? How do you fight something that worms its way into your head"

Vega: The whole citadel convo and "do you hear that buzzing?"

Garrus: "That's reaper tech alright, my brain hurts just looking at it."

And many more....

What are Shepard's responses to it?

Also, the enemies of the entire series are indoctrinated or source of it. It shouldn't be out of the ordinary that the main characters talk about it.

[paxxton]

masster blaster wrote...

Are any of you going to watch E3 this week and next week.

The EA conference is over. No Mass Effect 3 news.

Modifié par paxxton, 04 juin 2012 - 09:09 .

[dreamgazer]

EpyonX3 wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

No it was on topic until Hellish replied. It was why didn't biowaire include more indoctrination into Shepard's conversations, especially with the conversations with TIM?

One conversation brought to my attention about Shepard asking Hackett about TIM's plan. I admit I forgot about that one but is that really enough?

The game is laced with foreshadowing and wordplay. If you commit a playthrough to looking at everything with the mindset of foreshadowing and indoctrination, its literally in almost every conversation.

In any other game this would certainly qualify as tin-foil hatting, but NOT in Mass Effect. Not when it comes to something like Indoctrination. 

The bolded is the problem. I can commit a playthrough to having ME be one entire sex joke if I keep my mindset a certain way. This shouldn't have to be done, hence my original point, if IT was intended, they did it poorly.

Dude, indoctrination is mentioned around every corner of the game, both in heavily allusion during primary convos and in generic plot devices during secondary missions.  It's everywhere. 

[HellishFiend]

EpyonX3 wrote...

balance5050 wrote...


Almost every major conversation has indoc foreshadowing.

Ashley: How would you even know if you were bing controlled? How do you fight something that worms its way into your head"

Vega: The whole citadel convo and "do you hear that buzzing?"

Garrus: "That's reaper tech alright, my brain hurts just looking at it."

And many more....

What are Shepard's responses to it?

Also, the enemies of the entire series are indoctrinated or source of it. It shouldn't be out of the ordinary that the main characters talk about it.

It's not Shepard's responses you should be concerned with. It's yours. 

[balance5050]

EpyonX3 wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

No it was on topic until Hellish replied. It was why didn't biowaire include more indoctrination into Shepard's conversations, especially with the conversations with TIM?

One conversation brought to my attention about Shepard asking Hackett about TIM's plan. I admit I forgot about that one but is that really enough?

The game is laced with foreshadowing and wordplay. If you commit a playthrough to looking at everything with the mindset of foreshadowing and indoctrination, its literally in almost every conversation.

In any other game this would certainly qualify as tin-foil hatting, but NOT in Mass Effect. Not when it comes to something like Indoctrination. 

The bolded is the problem. I can commit a playthrough to having ME be one entire sex joke if I keep my mindset a certain way. This shouldn't have to be done, hence my original point, if IT was intended, they did it poorly.

I don't see why people don't look for signs that youre being indoctrinated, to not look for the signs is to willingly be ignorant to the possibilty.

The fact that it's not IN YOUR FACE OBVIOUS is because they're going for the meta "They're controlling YOU!" the player aspect.... If someone just walked up in game and said "hey, you look a little indoctrinated" there wouldn't be any speculation and we wouldn't be here. But this is what they wanted, for the I.T. to be a puzzle, an A.R.G. experience. You can't just turn your mind off for this kind of thing...

[EpyonX3]

HellishFiend wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

No it was on topic until Hellish replied. It was why didn't biowaire include more indoctrination into Shepard's conversations, especially with the conversations with TIM?

One conversation brought to my attention about Shepard asking Hackett about TIM's plan. I admit I forgot about that one but is that really enough?

First of all, everyone I knew debated whether TIM was indoc back in ME2 days. Everything he did was Shady and it always seemed like he was throwing you into a trap, and it's fairly obvious he's indoc by the end of ME3....

I know that's not what I'm getting at. If Shepard is undergoing indoctrination, there should be an increasingly amount of odd choices in the coversation menus, especially with TIM. But in every conversation, including the end, Shepard is against all TIM is and the reapers in Paragon and Renegade.

Again that is missing the point of IT. If it were as simple as Indoctrinating Shepard, the video game character, you would be right. There would be an increasing amount of oddities until it became obvious that's what was happening, and giving the player a chance to overcome it. 

The point of IT is that it's the player undergoing indoctrination, which means the clues have to be subtle enough to where you DONT notice them the first time around. 

That's even worse. Why? Because Bioware gives you the clues but tells you at the end of the game that the shows over and you won at the end of the game.

[Ravereth]

balance5050 wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

No it was on topic until Hellish replied. It was why didn't biowaire include more indoctrination into Shepard's conversations, especially with the conversations with TIM?

One conversation brought to my attention about Shepard asking Hackett about TIM's plan. I admit I forgot about that one but is that really enough?

The game is laced with foreshadowing and wordplay. If you commit a playthrough to looking at everything with the mindset of foreshadowing and indoctrination, its literally in almost every conversation.

In any other game this would certainly qualify as tin-foil hatting, but NOT in Mass Effect. Not when it comes to something like Indoctrination. 

Almost every major conversation has indoc foreshadowing.

Ashley: How would you even know if you were bing controlled? How do you fight something that worms its way into your head"

Vega: The whole citadel convo and "do you hear that buzzing?"

Garrus: "That's reaper tech alright, my brain hurts just looking at it."

And many more....

My favorite line from ME3 is "Do your job or get vaporized"  haha... MY first thought after hearing this (on my second playtrough) was "OMG he's talking about the ending!" 

[SS2Dante]

Ah, the irony. Linkin Park did indeed attach a new song to a game...MOH. All the lols.

[HellishFiend]

balance5050 wrote...

I don't see why people don't look for signs that youre being indoctrinated, to not look for the signs is to willingly be ignorant to the possibilty.

The fact that it's not IN YOUR FACE OBVIOUS is because they're going for the meta "They're controlling YOU!" the player aspect.... If someone just walked up in game and said "hey, you look a little indoctrinated" there wouldn't be any speculation and we wouldn't be here. But this is what they wanted, for the I.T. to be a puzzle, an A.R.G. experience. You can't just turn your mind off for this kind of thing...

Exactly. It would have been quite disappointing if it boiled down to some cliche "intervention" style confrontation between you and some non-indoctrinated characters. 

[dreamgazer]

EpyonX3 wrote...

That's even worse. Why? Because Bioware gives you the clues but tells you at the end of the game that the shows over and you won at the end of the game.

Yeah, the end message can be dissected as a giant play on semantics.  I've said why once or twice in the thread---it says it's happened, never says when---so I'll spare you of my yammering.  It ain't finite. 

Modifié par dreamgazer, 04 juin 2012 - 09:11 .

[balance5050]

HellishFiend wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

balance5050 wrote...


Almost every major conversation has indoc foreshadowing.

Ashley: How would you even know if you were bing controlled? How do you fight something that worms its way into your head"

Vega: The whole citadel convo and "do you hear that buzzing?"

Garrus: "That's reaper tech alright, my brain hurts just looking at it."

And many more....

What are Shepard's responses to it?

Also, the enemies of the entire series are indoctrinated or source of it. It shouldn't be out of the ordinary that the main characters talk about it.

It's not Shepard's responses you should be concerned with. It's yours. 

BINGO!

"What we’re doing with Mass Effect 3 that’s a little bit different than what we’ve done before is exploring the idea of getting the player to understand and feel what Commander Shepard is experiencing versus just reacting to other characters."

[HellishFiend]

Ravereth wrote...

My favorite line from ME3 is "Do your job or get vaporized"  haha... MY first thought after hearing this (on my second playtrough) was "OMG he's talking about the ending!" 

Yep, if you dont choose to Destroy the Reapers, you get vaporized in the other two choices. <_<

[Fingertrip]

paxxton wrote...

masster blaster wrote...

Are any of you going to watch E3 this week and next week.

The EA conference is over. No Mass Effect 3 news.

What a surprise.

[EpyonX3]

balance5050 wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

No it was on topic until Hellish replied. It was why didn't biowaire include more indoctrination into Shepard's conversations, especially with the conversations with TIM?

One conversation brought to my attention about Shepard asking Hackett about TIM's plan. I admit I forgot about that one but is that really enough?

The game is laced with foreshadowing and wordplay. If you commit a playthrough to looking at everything with the mindset of foreshadowing and indoctrination, its literally in almost every conversation.

In any other game this would certainly qualify as tin-foil hatting, but NOT in Mass Effect. Not when it comes to something like Indoctrination. 

The bolded is the problem. I can commit a playthrough to having ME be one entire sex joke if I keep my mindset a certain way. This shouldn't have to be done, hence my original point, if IT was intended, they did it poorly.

I don't see why people don't look for signs that youre being indoctrinated, to not look for the signs is to willingly be ignorant to the possibilty.

The fact that it's not IN YOUR FACE OBVIOUS is because they're going for the meta "They're controlling YOU!" the player aspect.... If someone just walked up in game and said "hey, you look a little indoctrinated" there wouldn't be any speculation and we wouldn't be here. But this is what they wanted, for the I.T. to be a puzzle, an A.R.G. experience. You can't just turn your mind off for this kind of thing...

I'm not saying it has to be in your face. However, I don't think you should have to look for evidence for something that you have to set your mind to look for first. Everything will seem like evidence after that. And look at what that's got us. I've seen people claim Shepard was dreaming because his shadow leaked through the platform, or because he floats half an inch off the ground.

A glitch becomes a clue and then evidence.

[HellishFiend]

EpyonX3 wrote...

I'm not saying it has to be in your face. However, I don't think you should have to look for evidence for something that you have to set your mind to look for first. Everything will seem like evidence after that. And look at what that's got us. I've seen people claim Shepard was dreaming because his shadow leaked through the platform, or because he floats half an inch off the ground.

A glitch becomes a clue and then evidence.

At this point we've both made our stances quite clear. So lets just move on. 

[paxxton]

dreamgazer wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

That's even worse. Why? Because Bioware gives you the clues but tells you at the end of the game that the shows over and you won at the end of the game.

Yeah, the end message can be dissected as a giant play on semantics.  I've said why once or twice in the thread---it says it's happened, never says when---so I'll spare you of my yammering.  It ain't finite. 

Exactly what I wanted to say. The EC might show events between the breath and that message.

Anyway, it's easy to omit that detail that it doesn't state when Shepard ended the Reaper invasion.

Modifié par paxxton, 04 juin 2012 - 09:17 .

[dreamgazer]

paxxton wrote...

masster blaster wrote...

Are any of you going to watch E3 this week and next week.

The EA conference is over. No Mass Effect 3 news.

Eh.  Post-interviews are still an option, but, again, I wouldn't be at all surprised if it doesn't get mentioned one bit. 

[balance5050]

HellishFiend wrote...

Ravereth wrote...

My favorite line from ME3 is "Do your job or get vaporized"  haha... MY first thought after hearing this (on my second playtrough) was "OMG he's talking about the ending!" 

Yep, if you dont choose to Destroy the Reapers, you get vaporized in the other two choices. <_<

Also, in the final dream you see a "false" Shepard embracing the kid.... and then you see them burning in flames.... You only burn in 2 of the 3 ending....... So, the Shepard that burns during the end ISN'T the true Shepard.

[EpyonX3]

balance5050 wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

balance5050 wrote...


Almost every major conversation has indoc foreshadowing.

Ashley: How would you even know if you were bing controlled? How do you fight something that worms its way into your head"

Vega: The whole citadel convo and "do you hear that buzzing?"

Garrus: "That's reaper tech alright, my brain hurts just looking at it."

And many more....

What are Shepard's responses to it?

Also, the enemies of the entire series are indoctrinated or source of it. It shouldn't be out of the ordinary that the main characters talk about it.

It's not Shepard's responses you should be concerned with. It's yours. 

BINGO!

"What we’re doing with Mass Effect 3 that’s a little bit different than what we’ve done before is exploring the idea of getting the player to understand and feel what Commander Shepard is experiencing versus just reacting to other characters."

But how is that different? This is exactly what I'm talking about. How do you understand what Shepard is going through? By dialog. And the player chooses that dialog. So a more effective way to indoctrinate the player would have been to make the player choose those subtle choices in conversation.