55528 réponses à ce sujet

[byne]

EpyonX3 wrote...

byne wrote...

It also does that whole 'zoom in on Shep clenching her fist' thing when you first see the hologram of the Crucible in the war room, which is kind of odd.

Aww he kind of closes his hand a small bit I wouldn't say it's a rage fist.

Well, I didnt say it was. I just said it was odd. It has all the set up you'd expect for a renegade interrupt, and then nothing happens.

Also, the vid I linked made me realize the conference room on the Normandy was very under-utilized.

They should have just left the labs there.

At least then I wouldnt be getting confused emails from Mordin on the Datapad app:

Shepard, where is my lab? Using Med-bay but change to room layout very confusing.


Although, now that I think of it, the label on the door leading from the war room to the conference room is labeled 'Tech Labs'...

[balance5050]

EpyonX3 wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

plfranke wrote...

Lol at epryon when he said that the indoctrination was deceptive. spoken like a true indoctrinated reaper agent

It's deceptive because Bioware tells you the game ended and you won outside of the gameplay. If they really wanted you to feel indoctrinated they wouldn't have purposely misled you.

Read that back to yourself.... Purposfully misleading you IS indoctrination man.... To be indoctrinated IS to be mislead. If you think that was the ending then they got you.

Yeah it'd be nice if it were in game. But it's not. Also, would the majority of players ever come to the conclusion that Shepard was indoctrinated without reading it on a forum?

How about you Balance? Did you suspect Shepard of being indoctrinated before this or any other thread? Or did you come to that conclusion on your own?

I pretty much knew right after the 3rd dream that something "else" was in my head. Bioware said that the boy represents everyone that Shepard couldn't save, the one major thought the reapers could use against him, it came together right when I saw the dead kid talking to me and spreading reaper propoghanda in the end.

I admit that I chose synthesis first, but was expecting it to be a gruesome scene filled with mutilation..... That's when I got confused, when it didn't show that.

Modifié par balance5050, 04 juin 2012 - 09:56 .

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

EpyonX3 wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

plfranke wrote...

Lol at epryon when he said that the indoctrination was deceptive. spoken like a true indoctrinated reaper agent

It's deceptive because Bioware tells you the game ended and you won outside of the gameplay. If they really wanted you to feel indoctrinated they wouldn't have purposely misled you.

Read that back to yourself.... Purposfully misleading you IS indoctrination man.... To be indoctrinated IS to be mislead. If you think that was the ending then they got you.

Yeah it'd be nice if it were in game. But it's not. Also, would the majority of players ever come to the conclusion that Shepard was indoctrinated without reading it on a forum?

How about you Balance? Did you suspect Shepard of being indoctrinated before this or any other thread? Or did you come to that conclusion on your own?

Indoctrination? No, i did not think that exactly. But I felt something was wrong in the ending, something was out of place from the moment Harbingers beam hit, I just could not put my finger on it.

As i stood before the last three choices i felt it the most. I off course felt confused at the strange choices, but that only added to the oddity of it all.

I choose destroy due to this feeling and because it was the only choice which did not go aaginst my logic or the wishes of characters taht came before me. It was memories and purpose  which made me choose Destroy on my first playthrough, not logic...but I never regretted it, even less so as I entered this forum, saw this thread and the pieces fell into place.

Deception is not supposed to be obvius, even less so when you try to deceive the player and not the character.

Modifié par Raistlin Majare 1992, 04 juin 2012 - 09:58 .

[D.Sharrah]

HellishFiend wrote...

SS2Dante wrote...

Lol, just realised that under the premise of indoctrination most people are TIM and Epyon is Saren

NO! I'M IN CONTROL, NOBODY'S TELLING ME WHAT TO DO!

Listen to yourself!  You're indoctrinated!

[HellishFiend]

D.Sharrah wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...


NO! I'M IN CONTROL, NOBODY'S TELLING ME WHAT TO DO!

Listen to yourself!  You're indoctrinated!

Yep, that pretty much sums up most of the dialog between ITers and Anti-ITers on BSN. 

[EpyonX3]

SS2Dante wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

plfranke wrote...

Lol at epryon when he said that the indoctrination was deceptive. spoken like a true indoctrinated reaper agent

It's deceptive because Bioware tells you the game ended and you won outside of the gameplay. If they really wanted you to feel indoctrinated they wouldn't have purposely misled you.

Read that back to yourself.... Purposfully misleading you IS indoctrination man.... To be indoctrinated IS to be mislead. If you think that was the ending then they got you.

Yeah it'd be nice if it were in game. But it's not. Also, would the majority of players ever come to the conclusion that Shepard was indoctrinated without reading it on a forum?

How about you Balance? Did you suspect Shepard of being indoctrinated before this or any other thread? Or did you come to that conclusion on your own?

But Ep, surely that's the point? Assuming the EC reveals indoctrination, then you'll have actually have had the experience of indoctrination. If you know you're being indoctrinated, then you're not.

For a story to be good and for something like this to be clever and thought provoking, it should be done well enough that every player can come to that conclusion on their own.

Here's what I mean. At the end of inception, ***Spoiler Alert*** the spinning toy doesn't stop spinning before the movie ends.

Every person watching that film asked the same basic question, "was he still dreaming?"

At the end of Mass Effect 3, there is no question about indoctrination or anything else since bioware formally tells you that the reapers were dealt with.

[Icinix]

Has anyone confirmed the dead Tali LI coming back after the third dream?

[byne]

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

Yeah it'd be nice if it were in game. But it's not. Also, would the majority of players ever come to the conclusion that Shepard was indoctrinated without reading it on a forum?

How about you Balance? Did you suspect Shepard of being indoctrinated before this or any other thread? Or did you come to that conclusion on your own?

Indoctrination? No, i did not think that exactly. But I felt something was wrong in the ending, something was out of place from the moment Harbingers beam hit, I just could not put my finger on it.

As i stood before the last three choices i felt it the most. I off course felt confused at the strange choices, but that only added to the oddity of it all.

I choose destroy due to this feeling and because it was the only choice which did not go aaginst my logic or the wishes of characters taht came before me. It was memories and purpose  which made me choose Destroy on my first playthrough, not logic...but I never regretted it, even less so as I entered this forum, saw this thread and the pieces fell into place.

Its like I said at the beginning of my first post in the old thread:

Byne wrote...

Is it just me, or does the entire ending sequence not feel like it fits in with the overall theme of the ME universe? It just feels.... off. I cant really describe it.

It seems otherworldly and kind of unfocused.

Modifié par byne, 04 juin 2012 - 09:59 .

[Turbo_J]

EpyonX3 wrote...

byne wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

byne wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

byne wrote...

The thing is, I cant name a single scene in the game where it actually tried to make me understand or feel what Shepard was going through. I dont really understand what else that quote could be talking about.

Eh, I partially disagree.  Stuff like clocking the Quarian general in the gut spoke to a mutual feeling we were having at the same moment, instead of a direct result of a renegade option.  There are other instances, but they're subtle. 

Except the quote also says not just reacting to other characters. You want to punch Han'Gerrel because he's acting like a jackass, so you're reacting to him more than feeling what Shepard is feeling.

Yeah but you know Shepard wants to punch him because he closes his fist just before.

It also does that whole 'zoom in on Shep clenching her fist' thing when you first see the hologram of the Crucible in the war room, which is kind of odd.

Aww he kind of closes his hand a small bit I wouldn't say it's a rage fist.

Oh oh! I saw that one and a few others... usually (s)he does that when an interrupt is coming but in a few spots nothing happens. I thought maybe BW decided in a few sports just to leave out the interrupt, but the one with the Crucible - which I just played through after talking to Hackett last night... very odd - and you can see the doubt in her face; or almost a, 'yeah, whatever'. I need to pay even more attention. I think she may do that when talking to Coates too. I know it happens during another conversation before or around Citadel II, I just can't remember who she was talking with.

Modifié par Turbo_J, 04 juin 2012 - 10:00 .

[SS2Dante]

To quote Hackett's description of the Crucible:

"...the designs are...elegant. Massive in scope, but strangely simple as well."

[paxxton]

SS2Dante wrote...

To quote Hackett's description of the Crucible:

"...the designs are...elegant. Massive in scope, but strangely simple as well."

It's called Mathematics.

Modifié par paxxton, 04 juin 2012 - 10:01 .

[D.Sharrah]

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

plfranke wrote...

Lol at epryon when he said that the indoctrination was deceptive. spoken like a true indoctrinated reaper agent

It's deceptive because Bioware tells you the game ended and you won outside of the gameplay. If they really wanted you to feel indoctrinated they wouldn't have purposely misled you.

Read that back to yourself.... Purposfully misleading you IS indoctrination man.... To be indoctrinated IS to be mislead. If you think that was the ending then they got you.

Yeah it'd be nice if it were in game. But it's not. Also, would the majority of players ever come to the conclusion that Shepard was indoctrinated without reading it on a forum?

How about you Balance? Did you suspect Shepard of being indoctrinated before this or any other thread? Or did you come to that conclusion on your own?

Indoctrination? No, i did not think that exactly. But I felt something was wrong in the ending, something was out of place from the moment Harbingers beam hit, I just could not put my finger on it.

As i stood before the last three choices i felt it the most. I off course felt confused at the strange choices, but that only added to the oddity of it all.

I choose destroy due to this feeling and because it was the only choice which did not go aaginst my logic or the wishes of characters taht came before me. It was memories and purpose  which made me choose Destroy on my first playthrough, not logic...but I never regretted it, even less so as I entered this forum, saw this thread and the pieces fell into place.

Deception is not supposed to be obvius, even less so when you try to deceive the player and not the character.

Much the same for me...although I did reload and "choose" the other endings to see the cinematics...then said to myself, "Uhmmmmmm...yeah, destroy from now on" - it was the only one that made sense to me.

[HellishFiend]

EpyonX3 wrote...



For a story to be good and for something like this to be clever and thought provoking, it should be done well enough that every player can come to that conclusion on their own.


At the end of Mass Effect 3, there is no question about indoctrination or anything else since bioware formally tells you that the reapers were dealt with.

Again, I fundamentally disagree with you, and I think our disagreement highlights a key difference between people who believe IT and people who dont. I think that based on what we know about Indoctrination, it makes perfect sense for it to be done in such a way that most people will NOT figure it out, and only a few will see enough of the signs to put it all together. 

For it to be any other way would go against the nature of how Indoctrination is portrayed within the game. 

As far as I'm concerned, if IT was their goal, they executed it flawlessly. 

[D.Sharrah]

HellishFiend wrote...

D.Sharrah wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...


NO! I'M IN CONTROL, NOBODY'S TELLING ME WHAT TO DO!

Listen to yourself!  You're indoctrinated!

Yep, that pretty much sums up most of the dialog between ITers and Anti-ITers on BSN. 

So true...

[EpyonX3]

byne wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

byne wrote...

It also does that whole 'zoom in on Shep clenching her fist' thing when you first see the hologram of the Crucible in the war room, which is kind of odd.

Aww he kind of closes his hand a small bit I wouldn't say it's a rage fist.

Well, I didnt say it was. I just said it was odd. It has all the set up you'd expect for a renegade interrupt, and then nothing happens.

Also, the vid I linked made me realize the conference room on the Normandy was very under-utilized.

They should have just left the labs there.

At least then I wouldnt be getting confused emails from Mordin on the Datapad app:

Shepard, where is my lab? Using Med-bay but change to room layout very confusing.


Although, now that I think of it, the label on the door leading from the war room to the conference room is labeled 'Tech Labs'...

They were still in the middle of fixing the ship up so they probably ran out of time when the reapers hit.

I hated the whole going through the scanner first thing. What was the point of that? What does it scan for? Why not tell those two useless guards to go do something else on YOUR ship?

[Iezza]

CMON GUYS! the rachni queen in ME1 Refernicning the "oily shadows" is such conclusive proof! . how can that not be linked? CMON!

[EpyonX3]

HellishFiend wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...



For a story to be good and for something like this to be clever and thought provoking, it should be done well enough that every player can come to that conclusion on their own.


At the end of Mass Effect 3, there is no question about indoctrination or anything else since bioware formally tells you that the reapers were dealt with.

Again, I fundamentally disagree with you, and I think our disagreement highlights a key difference between people who believe IT and people who dont. I think that based on what we know about Indoctrination, it makes perfect sense for it to be done in such a way that most people will NOT figure it out, and only a few will see enough of the signs to put it all together. 

For it to be any other way would go against the nature of how Indoctrination is portrayed within the game. 

As far as I'm concerned, if IT was their goal, they executed it flawlessly. 

I guess we disgree then. I think we'll both benefit at leaving it at that.

[balance5050]

EpyonX3 wrote...

Here's what I mean. At the end of inception, ***Spoiler Alert*** the spinning toy doesn't stop spinning before the movie ends.

Every person watching that film asked the same basic question, "was he still dreaming?"

At the end of Mass Effect 3, there is no question about indoctrination or anything else since bioware formally tells you that the reapers were dealt with.

He was still dreaming, he looked at his kids for the first time in years and and they still had the same clothes on and were the same age. Reused assets? No.

That's the point, indoctrination is a major part of IT lore, there is no denying that. So of course the end with all its trippines is supposed to make you question what the hecks going on, and when most IT fans heard "indoctrination" they went OOOOHHHHH.

[byne]

EpyonX3 wrote...

For a story to be good and for something like this to be clever and thought provoking, it should be done well enough that every player can come to that conclusion on their own.

Here's what I mean. At the end of inception, ***Spoiler Alert*** the spinning toy doesn't stop spinning before the movie ends.

Every person watching that film asked the same basic question, "was he still dreaming?"

At the end of Mass Effect 3, there is no question about indoctrination or anything else since bioware formally tells you that the reapers were dealt with.

I dont care how many times you and other people who dont believe in IT bring it up. A fourth-wall breaking message is never going to convince me of anything.

But I shall counter with this message.

Clearly since that message claims the Crucible was destroyed, and yet Shep is still standing around, she must have been on the Citadel right? 

[D.Sharrah]

EpyonX3 wrote...

SS2Dante wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

plfranke wrote...

Lol at epryon when he said that the indoctrination was deceptive. spoken like a true indoctrinated reaper agent

It's deceptive because Bioware tells you the game ended and you won outside of the gameplay. If they really wanted you to feel indoctrinated they wouldn't have purposely misled you.

Read that back to yourself.... Purposfully misleading you IS indoctrination man.... To be indoctrinated IS to be mislead. If you think that was the ending then they got you.

Yeah it'd be nice if it were in game. But it's not. Also, would the majority of players ever come to the conclusion that Shepard was indoctrinated without reading it on a forum?

How about you Balance? Did you suspect Shepard of being indoctrinated before this or any other thread? Or did you come to that conclusion on your own?

But Ep, surely that's the point? Assuming the EC reveals indoctrination, then you'll have actually have had the experience of indoctrination. If you know you're being indoctrinated, then you're not.

For a story to be good and for something like this to be clever and thought provoking, it should be done well enough that every player can come to that conclusion on their own.

Here's what I mean. At the end of inception, ***Spoiler Alert*** the spinning toy doesn't stop spinning before the movie ends.

Every person watching that film asked the same basic question, "was he still dreaming?"

At the end of Mass Effect 3, there is no question about indoctrination or anything else since bioware formally tells you that the reapers were dealt with.

True it doesn't stop...but I sure thought that I saw it start to wobble as if it was going to stop right before the cut away...so there was just enough there that you could say they left doubt (or in the terms of this arguement deception due to lack of clarification).

[Turbo_J]

SS2Dante wrote...

To quote Hackett's description of the Crucible:

"...the designs are...elegant. Massive in scope, but strangely simple as well."

Yeah, 'my' words to Liara and to Hackett - "this seems too easy... and a little stupid. We can't possibly throw everthing at this question mark!"

Of course then you're off to the Citadel and checking on the VS  and then going to the Council. Of course I wanted to tell them it was horsedoo but it wasn't on the dialog wheel.

Liara: "We have that plan."

Shep: Air quotes, "I've dismissed that claim!" 

Walks out.

Modifié par Turbo_J, 04 juin 2012 - 10:12 .

[Iezza]

oily shadows...

[dreamgazer]

EpyonX3 wrote...

For a story to be good and for something like this to be clever and thought provoking, it should be done well enough that every player can come to that conclusion on their own.

Here's what I mean. At the end of inception, ***Spoiler Alert*** the spinning toy doesn't stop spinning before the movie ends.

Every person watching that film asked the same basic question, "was he still dreaming?"

At the end of Mass Effect 3, there is no question about indoctrination or anything else since bioware formally tells you that the reapers were dealt with.

While I disagree, most of my answers revert back to less-mainstream cinema and media. I did, however, immediately pick up on ME3's surreal components, and the frequency which indoctrination is mentioned. They're more noticeable upon subsequent play-throughs, as are the hidden clues in Inception that emerge when you look for them.

[paxxton]

D.Sharrah wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

D.Sharrah wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...


NO! I'M IN CONTROL, NOBODY'S TELLING ME WHAT TO DO!

Listen to yourself!  You're indoctrinated!

Yep, that pretty much sums up most of the dialog between ITers and Anti-ITers on BSN. 

So true...

Not quite. i don't want to rrepeat that but there's a third option. Metaconvergence Theory or Unified Nanide-based Indoctrination Theory. I don't understand why so few people wish to embrace it.

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

Iezza wrote...

CMON GUYS! the rachni queen in ME1 Refernicning the "oily shadows" is such conclusive proof! . how can that not be linked? CMON!

Has been linked a millon times. It really is one of the most compelling pieces of evidence.

I mean not only do we ahve oily shadowy figures in the dreams, but also weird oily shadow tentacles along the screen edge in the TIM scene.