55528 réponses à ce sujet

[greatcrusader44]

Hello people, I just wanted to impose a little theory I have about the ending. I was thinking how weird the anderson and TIM confrontation was, you could never side with TIM, said he was indoctrinated and paragon choices had you tell him we're not ready to control such power. Yet less than a minute later starkid says we can and you can actually do it, despite having no way to agree with TIM on citadel. I think you go through 3 attempts of indoctrination.

First is the illusive man and Anderson confrontation, with Tim being the indoctrination and anderson being your will. Then I think the second is when starkid is explaining the reapers, hes trying to convince you that harvesting is the only way and saves the universe, and to make it sound more agreeable he avoids kill and instead says ascend, despite reapers in the background clearing blowing up dreadnaughts, KILLING people and in turn those people obviously can't be ascended. This stage can't be failed, shep has two dialogue options telling starkid that he/she just can't go with that, and the second starkid realizes shep wont go with his reasoning. He quickly abandons his solution, he changes his tune and goes for 3rd stage of indoc. He says Shepard is so special and has made his solution wrong somehow and now gives him 2 choices to permanently save universe, and the one option we built crucible for would only cause more death immediate and longterm, hoping shep would compromise and finally succumb to indoctrination.

[UrgentArchengel]

The best way to have the Reapers explained after IT would be that they are trying to survive. That they are the super AI that Starbringer talked about, and that they use Organics to keep themselves going. This is the Reaper breeding cycle. As I think Hudson had once said before.

[BleedingUranium]

byne wrote...

For anyone who cares: episode 2 of RvB season 10 was pretty awesome.

Only disappointing part is it is entirely Project Freelancer flashback stuff, and no present day stuff.

Not that the Freelancer stuff isnt awesome.

I still have to wait 50 minutes

I liked the PF stuff way better in Season 9, though I think that's because the memory capsule arc didn't really go anywhere. Season 10's present day stuff will probably be much better

[balance5050]

greatcrusader44 wrote...

Hello people, I just wanted to impose a little theory I have about the ending. I was thinking how weird the anderson and TIM confrontation was, you could never side with TIM, said he was indoctrinated and paragon choices had you tell him we're not ready to control such power. Yet less than a minute later starkid says we can and you can actually do it, despite having no way to agree with TIM on citadel. I think you go through 3 attempts of indoctrination.

First is the illusive man and Anderson confrontation, with Tim being the indoctrination and anderson being your will. Then I think the second is when starkid is explaining the reapers, hes trying to convince you that harvesting is the only way and saves the universe, and to make it sound more agreeable he avoids kill and instead says ascend, despite reapers in the background clearing blowing up dreadnaughts, KILLING people and in turn those people obviously can't be ascended. This stage can't be failed, shep has two dialogue options telling starkid that he/she just can't go with that, and the second starkid realizes shep wont go with his reasoning. He quickly abandons his solution, he changes his tune and goes for 3rd stage of indoc. He says Shepard is so special and has made his solution wrong somehow and now gives him 2 choices to permanently save universe, and the one option we built crucible for would only cause more death immediate and longterm, hoping shep would compromise and finally succumb to indoctrination.

I also believe that the indoctrination comes in several levels of intensity. I believe that Shepard may have even agreed with TIM if Anderson wasn't there. It's strange that Anderson comes up the beam after you, arrives at the console FAR before you, and is basically describing everything you see at the same time you see it. It makes it seem like Anderson is actually just a manifestation of Shepard's mind, and TIM isn't.... himself, whether you believe IT or not.

[HellishFiend]

balance5050 wrote...


I also believe that the indoctrination comes in several levels of intensity. I believe that Shepard may have even agreed with TIM if Anderson wasn't there. It's strange that Anderson comes up the beam after you, arrives at the console FAR before you, and is basically describing everything you see at the same time you see it. It makes it seem like Anderson is actually just a manifestation of Shepard's mind, and TIM isn't.... himself, whether you believe IT or not.

I think it is highly possible that the control panel is symbolic of Shepard's decision making ability. 

Up until that point, "Anderson" had unfettered access to it. But at that point, he loses the ability to manipulate it: "I'm just going to go ahead and...*staticgarble*"

The source of this loss of control? TIM, or more specifically, the manipulation of the reapers. Neither Anderson nor TIM are able to directly manipulate the control panel, and even Shepard can only access it when both Anderson and TIM are out of the picture. 

When Shepard opens the arms of the Citadel, it could symbolize the exposure of Shepard's mind to the final indoctrination attempt. Once the arms are open, Anderson dies, leaving us alone with our Shepard to face the final portion of the indoctrination process, and not even having any dialog/investigate options to help us along the way. 

[BleedingUranium]

HellishFiend wrote...

balance5050 wrote...


I also believe that the indoctrination comes in several levels of intensity. I believe that Shepard may have even agreed with TIM if Anderson wasn't there. It's strange that Anderson comes up the beam after you, arrives at the console FAR before you, and is basically describing everything you see at the same time you see it. It makes it seem like Anderson is actually just a manifestation of Shepard's mind, and TIM isn't.... himself, whether you believe IT or not.

I think it is highly possible that the control panel is symbolic of Shepard's decision making ability. 

Up until that point, "Anderson" had unfettered access to it. But at that point, he loses the ability to manipulate it: "I'm just going to go ahead and...*staticgarble*"

The source of this loss of control? TIM, or more specifically, the manipulation of the reapers. Neither Anderson nor TIM are able to directly manipulate the control panel, and even Shepard can only access it when both Anderson and TIM are out of the picture. 

When Shepard opens the arms of the Citadel, it could symbolize the exposure of Shepard's mind to the final indoctrination attempt. Once the arms are open, Anderson dies, leaving us alone with our Shepard to face the final portion of the indoctrination process, and not even having any dialog/investigate options to help us along the way. 

I like it  I'd never really thought about the panel in a symbolic way before

[HellishFiend]

BleedingUranium wrote...


I like it  I'd never really thought about the panel in a symbolic way before

Thanks.  I hope I'm right about it, because it's a very clever move by Bioware, if true. 

[Turbo_J]

UrgentArchengel wrote...

The best way to have the Reapers explained after IT would be that they are trying to survive. That they are the super AI that Starbringer talked about, and that they use Organics to keep themselves going. This is the Reaper breeding cycle. As I think Hudson had once said before.

The talk with EDI on the purpose of organics, to eventually reproduce in order to propagate the species, and her purpose which is in question, supports this. Pure synthetics can potentially live forever. Reapers, on the other hand are a hybrid and may have some twisted sense of need to reproduce (mundane) - or they really are trying to use organic/quantum computing to solve the Dark Energy problem.

Fact is, the do this based on some form of logic. I've put together info from\\ Legion, based on info from ME2 and ME3, that the Reapers also govern by a form of consensus, but each program; potentially an individual organic of the species it was created from, is enslaved; without free will. Remember what EDI said about the Geth Quarian conflict; the fought because the Geth were not individuals.

[HellishFiend]

Turbo_J wrote...
The talk with EDI on the purpose of organics, to eventually reproduce in order to propagate the species, and her purpose which is in question, supports this. Pure synthetics can potentially live forever. Reapers, on the other hand are a hybrid and may have some twisted sense of need to reproduce (mundane) - or they really are trying to use organic/quantum computing to solve the Dark Energy problem.

Fact is, the do this based on some form of logic. I've put together info from Legion, based on info from ME2 and ME3, that the Reapers also govern by a form of consensus, but each program; potentially an individual organic of the species it was created from, is enslaved; without free will. Remember what EDI said about the Geth Quarian conflict; the fought because the Geth were not individuals.

The quote I keep going back to when I think about this topic is from Sovereign:

"You exist because we allow it. You will end because we demand it."

What motivation fits both of those prerequisites? Procreation certainly does, for one. Anything else put on the table must also meet those conditions to be valid. 

Modifié par HellishFiend, 05 juin 2012 - 01:22 .

[BleedingUranium]

One thing I think was very missing in ME3's ending was your squad. In the Collector Base in ME2, when going through the Relay you got to see the three upgrades you got pay off, then help one of your squadmates go through the tube, save the crew, have one of them protect you with a biotic shield, give a cool speech, then then super epic music as you go to what you know is going to be the last part of the game:

 (until about 5:20)

And finally, this:

 (from 1:40)

and that's why ME2 is still my favourite.

There's a real sense of camraderie in ME2, not just that it focuses on characters, but that those characters are all important, and, while I wish I had a better word, friends.

Also, Joker does a loop in the Normandy at the end of ME1 & 2, but not 3. I could totally see him doing one then ramming Harbinger at FTL. The larger the eezo core, the larger the explosion, right? Isn't the SR-2's core 3 times the size of the already very large SR-1's?

AND ME1 & 2 both ended with the ME1 track "The End", whereas ME3's "And End Once And For All" ends with Halo 3's Lengendary Ending music

Modifié par BleedingUranium, 05 juin 2012 - 01:41 .

[balance5050]

HellishFiend wrote...

balance5050 wrote...


I also believe that the indoctrination comes in several levels of intensity. I believe that Shepard may have even agreed with TIM if Anderson wasn't there. It's strange that Anderson comes up the beam after you, arrives at the console FAR before you, and is basically describing everything you see at the same time you see it. It makes it seem like Anderson is actually just a manifestation of Shepard's mind, and TIM isn't.... himself, whether you believe IT or not.

I think it is highly possible that the control panel is symbolic of Shepard's decision making ability. 

Up until that point, "Anderson" had unfettered access to it. But at that point, he loses the ability to manipulate it: "I'm just going to go ahead and...*staticgarble*"

The source of this loss of control? TIM, or more specifically, the manipulation of the reapers. Neither Anderson nor TIM are able to directly manipulate the control panel, and even Shepard can only access it when both Anderson and TIM are out of the picture. 

When Shepard opens the arms of the Citadel, it could symbolize the exposure of Shepard's mind to the final indoctrination attempt. Once the arms are open, Anderson dies, leaving us alone with our Shepard to face the final portion of the indoctrination process, and not even having any dialog/investigate options to help us along the way. 

This basically leads to the idea that the reapers need to sway your core principles in order for indoctrination to sink in. To me the reapers are truly at their core, are truly evil, power hungry, killers of all things NOT reaper. They are racist, greedy, needlessly violent, basically the emodiment of evil.

Everyone (almost) has a dark side that something like the reapers could easily manipulate, if you are remotly racist, greedy, vain, gluttonnous, ignorant, the reapers will create the illusion that you are getting everything you want. Shepard is... different, he's... determined. After all three games, something everyone's Shepard has in common is that he lives to kill reapers, and their forces, no one is a bigger threat to the reapers than Shepard. How could the reaper's possibly sway a man like this? He's infalliable. They need to appeal to his good side, they need to appeal to the reason WHY he wants to destroy the reapers, no more death? attempt to make everyone the same so you solve every conflict ever? Both of these things are laced with reaper doctrine and require Shepard to step into a role that attempts to solve more than originally planned......

NO! even if you take the endings at face value. Garuss even says that you must be prepared for "deadly calculus" or something like that. Your buddy Garrus even tells you that you should be prepared to for casualties if you want to TRULY win this war.

This is the story I see in I.T., and I just hope the E.C. delivers.

Modifié par balance5050, 05 juin 2012 - 01:35 .

[Turbo_J]

HellishFiend wrote...

Turbo_J wrote...
The talk with EDI on the purpose of organics, to eventually reproduce in order to propagate the species, and her purpose which is in question, supports this. Pure synthetics can potentially live forever. Reapers, on the other hand are a hybrid and may have some twisted sense of need to reproduce (mundane) - or they really are trying to use organic/quantum computing to solve the Dark Energy problem.

Fact is, the do this based on some form of logic. I've put together info from Legion, based on info from ME2 and ME3, that the Reapers also govern by a form of consensus, but each program; potentially an individual organic of the species it was created from, is enslaved; without free will. Remember what EDI said about the Geth Quarian conflict; the fought because the Geth were not individuals.

The quote I keep going back to when I think about this topic is from Sovereign:

"You exist because we allow it. You will end because we demand it."

What motivation fits both of those prequisites? Procreation certainly does, for one. Anything else put on the table must also meet those conditions to be valid. 

Self preservation... Which is indicative of an AI that is not fully self aware. EDI herself reacted much the same way on Luna when the process of self-awareness took hold... understanding does not follow quick enough to counter self preservation instincts, especially when every organic you encounter is 'shooting' at extensions of your physical self... drones... She didn't know it was 'practice'

So the AI on the citadel may have had a similar logic error based on available info, but it took data from the only source it could, 'resulting in a sample size of one'... The Geth/Quarian conflict. Organics will always try to kill synthetics. Which some Shepards have proven completely false by ME3. That AI made it's conclusion 'in a vacuum'. Could the Reapers have done the same thing?

I don't think it matters how many programs connected together there are. A gestalt intellect is unable to comprehend compassion and selflessness.

What did Legion do when he became a free willed single minded entity? He gave his life for his people.

Another issue would be that if organics and fully individual AIs were allowed to continue to develop, they would eventually come up with the technology needed to destroy the Reapers... a bit of truth to the Reapers supposed singularity. The only difference is that it would be hybrids targeted by organics, and not pure, living AI's killing us... We already have them on ours side.

"They are more afraid of US than WE are of them." - GNN, Specter office.

Modifié par Turbo_J, 05 juin 2012 - 01:39 .

[Smugglers Luck]

 It's been hinted at throughout the entire series. It's why characters like Hackett say "The way we win this war is DEAD Reapers." or Mordin says "Must DESTROY them." when referring to the Collectors. (could apply to Reapers as well).

On a side note, I need some encouragement. I want to do another playthrough but I need friendly reassurance from my fellow IT theorists.

Modifié par Smugglers Luck, 05 juin 2012 - 02:22 .

[BleedingUranium]

Smugglers Luck wrote...

 I chose Destroy with my male Shepard but Synthesis with my female Shep. I feel like I did her a disservice.
Could I get some friendly reassurance and encouragement to play again and choose Destroy? Please? 

Edit: Being completely serious here.

Do it again so pretty FemShep doesn't have to be disintegrated, that'd be good enough for me

I tend to be like that though, I didn't bring Liara on the beam run because I felt something bad was going to happen

I am just finishing my first full playthrough after finishing ME3, and it was very interesting to play everything again with IT in mind

Modifié par BleedingUranium, 05 juin 2012 - 02:24 .

[jla0644]

Smugglers Luck wrote...

 It's been hinted at throughout the entire series. It's why characters like Hackett say "The way we win this war is DEAD Reapers." or Mordin says "Must DESTROY them." when referring to the Collectors. (could apply to Reapers as well).

On a side note, I need some encouragement. I want to do another playthrough but I need friendly reassurance from my fellow IT theorists.

And throughout the entire series, no one has access to the info Shepard is given at the end. If Mordin knew that destroying the Reapers would only temporarily solve the problem, don't you think he may have re-evaluated his opinion?

[BleedingUranium]

jla0644 wrote...

Smugglers Luck wrote...

 It's been hinted at throughout the entire series. It's why characters like Hackett say "The way we win this war is DEAD Reapers." or Mordin says "Must DESTROY them." when referring to the Collectors. (could apply to Reapers as well).

On a side note, I need some encouragement. I want to do another playthrough but I need friendly reassurance from my fellow IT theorists.

And throughout the entire series, no one has access to the info Shepard is given at the end. If Mordin knew that destroying the Reapers would only temporarily solve the problem, don't you think he may have re-evaluated his opinion?

What? If we destroy anything, in real life too, there's always a possibility that someone will create it again, we weren't given any new information.

[jla0644]

BleedingUranium wrote...

jla0644 wrote...

Smugglers Luck wrote...

 It's been hinted at throughout the entire series. It's why characters like Hackett say "The way we win this war is DEAD Reapers." or Mordin says "Must DESTROY them." when referring to the Collectors. (could apply to Reapers as well).

On a side note, I need some encouragement. I want to do another playthrough but I need friendly reassurance from my fellow IT theorists.

And throughout the entire series, no one has access to the info Shepard is given at the end. If Mordin knew that destroying the Reapers would only temporarily solve the problem, don't you think he may have re-evaluated his opinion?

What? If we destroy anything, in real life too, there's always a possibility that someone will create it again, we weren't given any new information.

The fact that the Reapers were created to prevent humans from creating synthetics that would wipe out organics was NOT new information? Where was it revealed previously?

Modifié par jla0644, 05 juin 2012 - 02:43 .

[Smugglers Luck]

jla0644 wrote...

Smugglers Luck wrote...

 It's been hinted at throughout the entire series. It's why characters like Hackett say "The way we win this war is DEAD Reapers." or Mordin says "Must DESTROY them." when referring to the Collectors. (could apply to Reapers as well).

On a side note, I need some encouragement. I want to do another playthrough but I need friendly reassurance from my fellow IT theorists.

And throughout the entire series, no one has access to the info Shepard is given at the end. If Mordin knew that destroying the Reapers would only temporarily solve the problem, don't you think he may have re-evaluated his opinion?

Maybe but do you think he would have prefered Synthesis/Control? He clearly states in ME2 that diversity is good for organic life which is why he wants the Collectors destroyed. I don't think he would've like Synthesis. Maybe he would have considered Control but Destroy seems like the only option he and any of the other characters would want to go with.

[Icinix]

jla0644 wrote...

Smugglers Luck wrote...

 It's been hinted at throughout the entire series. It's why characters like Hackett say "The way we win this war is DEAD Reapers." or Mordin says "Must DESTROY them." when referring to the Collectors. (could apply to Reapers as well).

On a side note, I need some encouragement. I want to do another playthrough but I need friendly reassurance from my fellow IT theorists.

And throughout the entire series, no one has access to the info Shepard is given at the end. If Mordin knew that destroying the Reapers would only temporarily solve the problem, don't you think he may have re-evaluated his opinion?

No.

I actually think Mordin would have been one of the least succeptible characters to sway towards control or synthesis.

Mordin is very much organic life finding its own way, and evolution he comes to through ME2 and ME3.

I don't believe he would have hesitated in choosing destroy.

[Smugglers Luck]

BleedingUranium wrote...

Smugglers Luck wrote...

 I chose Destroy with my male Shepard but Synthesis with my female Shep. I feel like I did her a disservice.
Could I get some friendly reassurance and encouragement to play again and choose Destroy? Please? 

Edit: Being completely serious here.

Do it again so pretty FemShep doesn't have to be disintegrated, that'd be good enough for me

I tend to be like that though, I didn't bring Liara on the beam run because I felt something bad was going to happen

I am just finishing my first full playthrough after finishing ME3, and it was very interesting to play everything again with IT in mind

Thank you.  I've been thinking along those lines. It's just hard knowing what I know now.

[balance5050]

jla0644 wrote...

Smugglers Luck wrote...

 It's been hinted at throughout the entire series. It's why characters like Hackett say "The way we win this war is DEAD Reapers." or Mordin says "Must DESTROY them." when referring to the Collectors. (could apply to Reapers as well).

On a side note, I need some encouragement. I want to do another playthrough but I need friendly reassurance from my fellow IT theorists.

And throughout the entire series, no one has access to the info Shepard is given at the end. If Mordin knew that destroying the Reapers would only temporarily solve the problem, don't you think he may have re-evaluated his opinion?

Sorry, but the source of that information is unreliable, Mordin deals in facts not faulty logic, try again.

Modifié par balance5050, 05 juin 2012 - 03:05 .

[Arashi08]

Sounds like Harbinger is in Halo 4
http://www.g4tv.com/...gameplay-video/
around 7:13

Modifié par Arashi08, 05 juin 2012 - 03:13 .

[BleedingUranium]

Arashi08 wrote...

Sounds like Harbinger is in Halo 4
http://www.g4tv.com/...gameplay-video/
around 7:14

Beat me to it lol

[Turbo_J]

Smugglers Luck wrote...

 It's been hinted at throughout the entire series. It's why characters like Hackett say "The way we win this war is DEAD Reapers." or Mordin says "Must DESTROY them." when referring to the Collectors. (could apply to Reapers as well).

On a side note, I need some encouragement. I want to do another playthrough but I need friendly reassurance from my fellow IT theorists.

Just pay attention and 'Stay Focused' Don't let fear, ego, emotion, or anxiety change who YOU are, Shepard.

Trust yourself... if ash is alive, renegade answers only and pay attention to what Shep says in the hospital. The message is more for her than it is for Ash.

And keep a close eye on Liara; keep your enemies close. I love her to pieces, but she makes me nervous in ME3.

[Smugglers Luck]

Turbo_J wrote...

Smugglers Luck wrote...

 It's been hinted at throughout the entire series. It's why characters like Hackett say "The way we win this war is DEAD Reapers." or Mordin says "Must DESTROY them." when referring to the Collectors. (could apply to Reapers as well).

On a side note, I need some encouragement. I want to do another playthrough but I need friendly reassurance from my fellow IT theorists.

Just pay attention and 'Stay Focused' Don't let fear, ego, emotion, or anxiety change who YOU are, Shepard.

Trust yourself... if ash is alive, renegade answers only and pay attention to what Shep says in the hospital. The message is more for her than it is for Ash.

And keep a close eye on Liara; keep your enemies close. I love her to pieces, but she makes me nervous in ME3.

Thanks.  I will most assuredly keep that in mind.