55528 réponses à ce sujet

[BleedingUranium]

HellishFiend wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

paxxton wrote...

I can understand Fiend. His point is whether it's morally acceptable to force the geth rewrite on them. In this situation you have to consider what is more morally inaceptable: killing or letting to live. And remember AIs don't think like organics. They do not resent, do not regret, do not moarn loss of their previous viewpoint.

Geth don't. Keep in mind that unless you let Legion upgrade the Geth in ME3 they're not really AIs, they're more like lots and lots of VIs, that become similar to AIs when together. Only after they get the code are they truly AIs. EDI is really the only AI we have experience with, and I'd say she's capable of all of the above.

In any case, I dont think there is a right or wrong answer in the strictest sense. It's up to your personal code of morals and ethics, in which case the answer you pick becomes the right answer for you. 

About the Geth Indoctrination thing, I dont think the heretics were under any sort of Reaper influence at that point, so continuing to follow the Reapers was essentially their "choice", however misguided. 

I agree there's no right and wrong to this one, that's why I find it so interesting. It's the only decision in ME that I find difficult, I'm a bit like Legion, very split, I see the positives and negatives of both.

[gunslinger_ruiz]

bigstig wrote...

Baa Baa wrote...

www.youtube.com/watch
Another possible foreshadowing is this...
"Kalahira, this one's heart is pure, but beset by wickedness and contention."
"His last moments were those of a hero. Why pray for salvation?"
"The prayer was not for him Commander. He has already asked forgiveness for the lies he has taken. His wish was for you..."
Also it's my favorite moments of the game

It's worth noting that you don't always hear this message.

Obviously if Thane doesn't survive the suicide mission(unless Kirahe has a similar moment)  but if you choose not to pray with him then you do not get this message. I cannot recall if Thane's son says a different prayer or if it is just a moment of silence.

Not sure what implications it has really but thought it should be mentioned.

---
Yeah I know it's a late response but I'm currently wading through about a collective of 200+ pages on multiple threads so please forgive me

Something to add to this, Shepard's last words to Thane as he dies "Goodbye Thane... You won't be alone long." First thought this was a really odd thing for Shepard to say, thought he/she was trying to sound badass, example "I'll make sure to send those Reaper bastards to the afterlife with you," but then figured that was too insulting to Thane insinuating that both he and Reaper bastards share the same afterlife given Thane's religion. So instead I figure it means more along the lines of Shepard acknowedging his/her odds of surviving the Reaper war are slim, makes the character more real in my opinion. Think I'm right along that interpretation? Or did I sail right past what Shepard really meant?

[paxxton]

BleedingUranium wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

paxxton wrote...

I can understand Fiend. His point is whether it's morally acceptable to force the geth rewrite on them. In this situation you have to consider what is more morally inaceptable: killing or letting to live. And remember AIs don't think like organics. They do not resent, do not regret, do not moarn loss of their previous viewpoint.

Geth don't. Keep in mind that unless you let Legion upgrade the Geth in ME3 they're not really AIs, they're more like lots and lots of VIs, that become similar to AIs when together. Only after they get the code are they truly AIs. EDI is really the only AI we have experience with, and I'd say she's capable of all of the above.

In any case, I dont think there is a right or wrong answer in the strictest sense. It's up to your personal code of morals and ethics, in which case the answer you pick becomes the right answer for you. 

About the Geth Indoctrination thing, I dont think the heretics were under any sort of Reaper influence at that point, so continuing to follow the Reapers was essentially their "choice", however misguided. 

I agree there's no right and wrong to this one, that's why I find it so interesting. It's the only decision in ME that I find difficult, I'm a bit like Legion, very split, I see the positives and negatives of both.

There are a few difficult decisions. Like choosing Tali or Legion on Rannoch. I honestly thought the quarians would back off. I made a miscalculation.

Modifié par paxxton, 05 juin 2012 - 10:13 .

[BleedingUranium]

paxxton wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

paxxton wrote...

I can understand Fiend. His point is whether it's morally acceptable to force the geth rewrite on them. In this situation you have to consider what is more morally inaceptable: killing or letting to live. And remember AIs don't think like organics. They do not resent, do not regret, do not moarn loss of their previous viewpoint.

Geth don't. Keep in mind that unless you let Legion upgrade the Geth in ME3 they're not really AIs, they're more like lots and lots of VIs, that become similar to AIs when together. Only after they get the code are they truly AIs. EDI is really the only AI we have experience with, and I'd say she's capable of all of the above.

In any case, I dont think there is a right or wrong answer in the strictest sense. It's up to your personal code of morals and ethics, in which case the answer you pick becomes the right answer for you. 

About the Geth Indoctrination thing, I dont think the heretics were under any sort of Reaper influence at that point, so continuing to follow the Reapers was essentially their "choice", however misguided. 

I agree there's no right and wrong to this one, that's why I find it so interesting. It's the only decision in ME that I find difficult, I'm a bit like Legion, very split, I see the positives and negatives of both.

There are a few difficult decision. Like choosing Tali or Legion on Rannoch. I honestly thought the quarians would back off. I made a miscalculation.

That would have been, if I needed to chose

[BleedingUranium]

gunslinger_ruiz wrote...

bigstig wrote...

Baa Baa wrote...

www.youtube.com/watch
Another possible foreshadowing is this...
"Kalahira, this one's heart is pure, but beset by wickedness and contention."
"His last moments were those of a hero. Why pray for salvation?"
"The prayer was not for him Commander. He has already asked forgiveness for the lies he has taken. His wish was for you..."
Also it's my favorite moments of the game

It's worth noting that you don't always hear this message.

Obviously if Thane doesn't survive the suicide mission(unless Kirahe has a similar moment)  but if you choose not to pray with him then you do not get this message. I cannot recall if Thane's son says a different prayer or if it is just a moment of silence.

Not sure what implications it has really but thought it should be mentioned.

---
Yeah I know it's a late response but I'm currently wading through about a collective of 200+ pages on multiple threads so please forgive me

Something to add to this, Shepard's last words to Thane as he dies "Goodbye Thane... You won't be alone long." First thought this was a really odd thing for Shepard to say, thought he/she was trying to sound badass, example "I'll make sure to send those Reaper bastards to the afterlife with you," but then figured that was too insulting to Thane insinuating that both he and Reaper bastards share the same afterlife given Thane's religion. So instead I figure it means more along the lines of Shepard acknowedging his/her odds of surviving the Reaper war are slim, makes the character more real in my opinion. Think I'm right along that interpretation? Or did I sail right past what Shepard really meant?

I think you're right, but I think Shep was referring to all the good people who will end up dying, not just themself

[paxxton]

BleedingUranium wrote...

paxxton wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

paxxton wrote...

I can understand Fiend. His point is whether it's morally acceptable to force the geth rewrite on them. In this situation you have to consider what is more morally inaceptable: killing or letting to live. And remember AIs don't think like organics. They do not resent, do not regret, do not moarn loss of their previous viewpoint.

Geth don't. Keep in mind that unless you let Legion upgrade the Geth in ME3 they're not really AIs, they're more like lots and lots of VIs, that become similar to AIs when together. Only after they get the code are they truly AIs. EDI is really the only AI we have experience with, and I'd say she's capable of all of the above.

In any case, I dont think there is a right or wrong answer in the strictest sense. It's up to your personal code of morals and ethics, in which case the answer you pick becomes the right answer for you. 

About the Geth Indoctrination thing, I dont think the heretics were under any sort of Reaper influence at that point, so continuing to follow the Reapers was essentially their "choice", however misguided. 

I agree there's no right and wrong to this one, that's why I find it so interesting. It's the only decision in ME that I find difficult, I'm a bit like Legion, very split, I see the positives and negatives of both.

There are a few difficult decision. Like choosing Tali or Legion on Rannoch. I honestly thought the quarians would back off. I made a miscalculation.

That would have been, if I needed to chose

I wouldn't have had to choose but I forgot to do the Geth Consensus Mission before Rannoch.

[Big G13]

paxxton wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

paxxton wrote...

I can understand Fiend. His point is whether it's morally acceptable to force the geth rewrite on them. In this situation you have to consider what is more morally inaceptable: killing or letting to live. And remember AIs don't think like organics. They do not resent, do not regret, do not moarn loss of their previous viewpoint.

Geth don't. Keep in mind that unless you let Legion upgrade the Geth in ME3 they're not really AIs, they're more like lots and lots of VIs, that become similar to AIs when together. Only after they get the code are they truly AIs. EDI is really the only AI we have experience with, and I'd say she's capable of all of the above.

In any case, I dont think there is a right or wrong answer in the strictest sense. It's up to your personal code of morals and ethics, in which case the answer you pick becomes the right answer for you. 

About the Geth Indoctrination thing, I dont think the heretics were under any sort of Reaper influence at that point, so continuing to follow the Reapers was essentially their "choice", however misguided. 

I agree there's no right and wrong to this one, that's why I find it so interesting. It's the only decision in ME that I find difficult, I'm a bit like Legion, very split, I see the positives and negatives of both.

There are a few difficult decisions. Like choosing Tali or Legion on Rannoch. I honestly thought the quarians would back off. I made a miscalculation.

I think you're spot on. But then I thought all of ME3 was a lot more.... dark, than the rest of the series.

[paxxton]

Big G13 wrote...

paxxton wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

paxxton wrote...

I can understand Fiend. His point is whether it's morally acceptable to force the geth rewrite on them. In this situation you have to consider what is more morally inaceptable: killing or letting to live. And remember AIs don't think like organics. They do not resent, do not regret, do not moarn loss of their previous viewpoint.

Geth don't. Keep in mind that unless you let Legion upgrade the Geth in ME3 they're not really AIs, they're more like lots and lots of VIs, that become similar to AIs when together. Only after they get the code are they truly AIs. EDI is really the only AI we have experience with, and I'd say she's capable of all of the above.

In any case, I dont think there is a right or wrong answer in the strictest sense. It's up to your personal code of morals and ethics, in which case the answer you pick becomes the right answer for you. 

About the Geth Indoctrination thing, I dont think the heretics were under any sort of Reaper influence at that point, so continuing to follow the Reapers was essentially their "choice", however misguided. 

I agree there's no right and wrong to this one, that's why I find it so interesting. It's the only decision in ME that I find difficult, I'm a bit like Legion, very split, I see the positives and negatives of both.

There are a few difficult decisions. Like choosing Tali or Legion on Rannoch. I honestly thought the quarians would back off. I made a miscalculation.

I think you're spot on. But then I thought all of ME3 was a lot more.... dark, than the rest of the series.

It was like an emotional rollercoaster full of despair.

[Corik]

paxxton wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

paxxton wrote...

I can understand Fiend. His point is whether it's morally acceptable to force the geth rewrite on them. In this situation you have to consider what is more morally inaceptable: killing or letting to live. And remember AIs don't think like organics. They do not resent, do not regret, do not moarn loss of their previous viewpoint.

Geth don't. Keep in mind that unless you let Legion upgrade the Geth in ME3 they're not really AIs, they're more like lots and lots of VIs, that become similar to AIs when together. Only after they get the code are they truly AIs. EDI is really the only AI we have experience with, and I'd say she's capable of all of the above.

In any case, I dont think there is a right or wrong answer in the strictest sense. It's up to your personal code of morals and ethics, in which case the answer you pick becomes the right answer for you. 

About the Geth Indoctrination thing, I dont think the heretics were under any sort of Reaper influence at that point, so continuing to follow the Reapers was essentially their "choice", however misguided. 

I agree there's no right and wrong to this one, that's why I find it so interesting. It's the only decision in ME that I find difficult, I'm a bit like Legion, very split, I see the positives and negatives of both.

There are a few difficult decisions. Like choosing Tali or Legion on Rannoch. I honestly thought the quarians would back off. I made a miscalculation.

For me, choosing to rewrite the geth heretics was a fairly easy decission. I just did what the geth wanted. A few more geth supported rewritting the heretics instead of destroying them. Who am I to choose what I want instead of what their own race want?

It's even morally acceptable since Heretics are enslaved by the reapers. Destroy the slaves or breaking their chains? That's of course my point of view.

[paxxton]

Corik wrote...

paxxton wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

paxxton wrote...

I can understand Fiend. His point is whether it's morally acceptable to force the geth rewrite on them. In this situation you have to consider what is more morally inaceptable: killing or letting to live. And remember AIs don't think like organics. They do not resent, do not regret, do not moarn loss of their previous viewpoint.

Geth don't. Keep in mind that unless you let Legion upgrade the Geth in ME3 they're not really AIs, they're more like lots and lots of VIs, that become similar to AIs when together. Only after they get the code are they truly AIs. EDI is really the only AI we have experience with, and I'd say she's capable of all of the above.

In any case, I dont think there is a right or wrong answer in the strictest sense. It's up to your personal code of morals and ethics, in which case the answer you pick becomes the right answer for you. 

About the Geth Indoctrination thing, I dont think the heretics were under any sort of Reaper influence at that point, so continuing to follow the Reapers was essentially their "choice", however misguided. 

I agree there's no right and wrong to this one, that's why I find it so interesting. It's the only decision in ME that I find difficult, I'm a bit like Legion, very split, I see the positives and negatives of both.

There are a few difficult decisions. Like choosing Tali or Legion on Rannoch. I honestly thought the quarians would back off. I made a miscalculation.

For me, choosing to rewrite the geth heretics was a fairly easy decission. I just did what the geth wanted. A few more geth supported rewritting the heretics instead of destroying them. Who am I to choose what I want instead of what their own race want?

It's even morally acceptable since Heretics are enslaved by the reapers. Destroy the slaves or breaking their chains? That's of course my point of view.

HellishFiend said that the heretics chose to follow the Reapers. I'm not sure though whether there wasn't some Reaper indoctrination or upgrades involved in making them choose the Reapers' side.

Modifié par paxxton, 05 juin 2012 - 10:26 .

[Corik]

paxxton wrote...

Corik wrote...

paxxton wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

paxxton wrote...

I can understand Fiend. His point is whether it's morally acceptable to force the geth rewrite on them. In this situation you have to consider what is more morally inaceptable: killing or letting to live. And remember AIs don't think like organics. They do not resent, do not regret, do not moarn loss of their previous viewpoint.

Geth don't. Keep in mind that unless you let Legion upgrade the Geth in ME3 they're not really AIs, they're more like lots and lots of VIs, that become similar to AIs when together. Only after they get the code are they truly AIs. EDI is really the only AI we have experience with, and I'd say she's capable of all of the above.

In any case, I dont think there is a right or wrong answer in the strictest sense. It's up to your personal code of morals and ethics, in which case the answer you pick becomes the right answer for you. 

About the Geth Indoctrination thing, I dont think the heretics were under any sort of Reaper influence at that point, so continuing to follow the Reapers was essentially their "choice", however misguided. 

I agree there's no right and wrong to this one, that's why I find it so interesting. It's the only decision in ME that I find difficult, I'm a bit like Legion, very split, I see the positives and negatives of both.

There are a few difficult decisions. Like choosing Tali or Legion on Rannoch. I honestly thought the quarians would back off. I made a miscalculation.

For me, choosing to rewrite the geth heretics was a fairly easy decission. I just did what the geth wanted. A few more geth supported rewritting the heretics instead of destroying them. Who am I to choose what I want instead of what their own race want?

It's even morally acceptable since Heretics are enslaved by the reapers. Destroy the slaves or breaking their chains? That's of course my point of view.

HellishFiend said that the heretics chose to follow the Reapers. I'm not sure though whether there wasn't some Reaper indoctrination or upgrades involved in making them choose the Reapers' side.

Well, yes, but in the moment they follow the reapers they become slaves. In ME3 they couldn't do anything about that even when we were trying to make peace between Quarians and Geth, we had to destroy the reaper controlling them.

[paxxton]

Corik wrote...

paxxton wrote...

Corik wrote...

paxxton wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

paxxton wrote...

I can understand Fiend. His point is whether it's morally acceptable to force the geth rewrite on them. In this situation you have to consider what is more morally inaceptable: killing or letting to live. And remember AIs don't think like organics. They do not resent, do not regret, do not moarn loss of their previous viewpoint.

Geth don't. Keep in mind that unless you let Legion upgrade the Geth in ME3 they're not really AIs, they're more like lots and lots of VIs, that become similar to AIs when together. Only after they get the code are they truly AIs. EDI is really the only AI we have experience with, and I'd say she's capable of all of the above.

In any case, I dont think there is a right or wrong answer in the strictest sense. It's up to your personal code of morals and ethics, in which case the answer you pick becomes the right answer for you. 

About the Geth Indoctrination thing, I dont think the heretics were under any sort of Reaper influence at that point, so continuing to follow the Reapers was essentially their "choice", however misguided. 

I agree there's no right and wrong to this one, that's why I find it so interesting. It's the only decision in ME that I find difficult, I'm a bit like Legion, very split, I see the positives and negatives of both.

There are a few difficult decisions. Like choosing Tali or Legion on Rannoch. I honestly thought the quarians would back off. I made a miscalculation.

For me, choosing to rewrite the geth heretics was a fairly easy decission. I just did what the geth wanted. A few more geth supported rewritting the heretics instead of destroying them. Who am I to choose what I want instead of what their own race want?

It's even morally acceptable since Heretics are enslaved by the reapers. Destroy the slaves or breaking their chains? That's of course my point of view.

HellishFiend said that the heretics chose to follow the Reapers. I'm not sure though whether there wasn't some Reaper indoctrination or upgrades involved in making them choose the Reapers' side.

Well, yes, but in the moment they follow the reapers they become slaves. In ME3 they couldn't do anything about that even when we were trying to make peace between Quarians and Geth, we had to destroy the reaper controlling them.

You're right. After disinfecting the Server the geth willingfully joined Shepard.

Modifié par paxxton, 05 juin 2012 - 10:35 .

[Corik]

paxxton wrote...

Corik wrote...

Well, yes, but in the moment they follow the reapers they become slaves. In ME3 they couldn't do anything about that even when we were trying to make peace between Quarians and Geth, we had to destroy the reaper controlling them.

You're right. After disinfecting the Server the geth willingfully joined Shepard.

I would also like to say that the geth never wanted to destroy organics until they fell under reaper influence. They just defended themselves against the quarians, but only against those who tried to harm them. When they abandoned rannoch, they didn't went after them, they could have easily destroyed the quarians if they wanted.

That's also an evidence against RieperBieber, who said the created will always turn against the creators. That's just false. They only did that when under reaper control.

Modifié par Corik, 05 juin 2012 - 10:39 .

[BleedingUranium]

Corik wrote...

paxxton wrote...

Corik wrote...

Well, yes, but in the moment they follow the reapers they become slaves. In ME3 they couldn't do anything about that even when we were trying to make peace between Quarians and Geth, we had to destroy the reaper controlling them.

You're right. After disinfecting the Server the geth willingfully joined Shepard.

I would also like to say that the geth never wanted to destroy organics until they fell under reaper influence. They just defended themselves against the quarians, but only against those who tried to harm them. When they abandoned rannoch, they didn't went after them, they could have easily destroyed the quarians if they wanted.

That's also an evidence against RieperBieber, who said the created will always turn against the creators. That's just false. They only did that when under reaper control.

Well said, and both of you have convinced he that rewriting them would be "better", so I'll be doing that on my next playthrough

[Arian Dynas]

BleedingUranium wrote...

gunslinger_ruiz wrote...

bigstig wrote...

Baa Baa wrote...

www.youtube.com/watch
Another possible foreshadowing is this...
"Kalahira, this one's heart is pure, but beset by wickedness and contention."
"His last moments were those of a hero. Why pray for salvation?"
"The prayer was not for him Commander. He has already asked forgiveness for the lies he has taken. His wish was for you..."
Also it's my favorite moments of the game

It's worth noting that you don't always hear this message.

Obviously if Thane doesn't survive the suicide mission(unless Kirahe has a similar moment)  but if you choose not to pray with him then you do not get this message. I cannot recall if Thane's son says a different prayer or if it is just a moment of silence.

Not sure what implications it has really but thought it should be mentioned.

---
Yeah I know it's a late response but I'm currently wading through about a collective of 200+ pages on multiple threads so please forgive me

Something to add to this, Shepard's last words to Thane as he dies "Goodbye Thane... You won't be alone long." First thought this was a really odd thing for Shepard to say, thought he/she was trying to sound badass, example "I'll make sure to send those Reaper bastards to the afterlife with you," but then figured that was too insulting to Thane insinuating that both he and Reaper bastards share the same afterlife given Thane's religion. So instead I figure it means more along the lines of Shepard acknowedging his/her odds of surviving the Reaper war are slim, makes the character more real in my opinion. Think I'm right along that interpretation? Or did I sail right past what Shepard really meant?

I think you're right, but I think Shep was referring to all the good people who will end up dying, not just themself

I agree with both, Shep has a legitimate understanding that this is a war quite literally for survival, this really is the first time humanity has been left fighting against an enemy who really wants nothing more than to exterminate them. 

And to be honest, Shepard aside from being under TONS of stress, which is brought up time and again, he's also much more fatalistic in this game than the others, as though he's getting older and really doesn't expect himself to live much longer, to live hard and burn out young, as it were.

[Eryri]

Arian Dynas wrote...

... Rather than maintaining a million distinct personalities, minds and psyches, they form into one horrifying gestalt, a single mind formed of many, a mind more horrible than all of their collective cruelties inflicted upon the galaxy, something perfect, and terrible in it's perfection.

A mind that belives itself to be the end of evolution, a single mind now, which has come to the realization that it is the child of an entire great species, a species which sacrificed everything for it's creation, it's perfection. A perfection it must share, this is the greatest achivement that it's species could form, nay that ANY species could possibly achive, the creation of a collective mind so great, so mighty, a mind that is immortal, not subject to the ravages of time, capable of leveling continents and cities with insulting ease, surely something so great MUST be perfection incarnate, surely this is what is must be to be a God, and as we all know, Gods, are perfect, and all others must find a way to achive this perfection, no all others must be MADE to become as perfect as this new being.


It will help all others ascend to it's level, or if they refuse, they will be forced. This new being will bring them perfection, their destiny, it will be a Harbinger of all they will become...

That is absolutely brilliant. It's just the kind of origin and motivation the Reaper's need, rather than being glorified cosmic gamekeepers.
Culling advanced organic life as some sort of twisted and counter productive "conservation" policy seems so banal.

[Eryri]

DJBare wrote...

Maybe it's time to think outside the box and stop considering the crucible a reaper off button?, I stopped believing that weeks ago, too many unknowns and suspicions surrounding it, the best example to me is we are forced into giving it a human reaper heart, in my opinion the crucible is a reaper device, and my guess is a mass indoctrination device.

The reason I'm on this track is because I do not believe Bioware would have gone for a reaper off button, I'm pretty sure that nearly all the devs would consider a reaper off button lame.

My thoughts exactly. Now THAT would be a good twist ending.

[paxxton]

Corik wrote...

paxxton wrote...

Corik wrote...

Well, yes, but in the moment they follow the reapers they become slaves. In ME3 they couldn't do anything about that even when we were trying to make peace between Quarians and Geth, we had to destroy the reaper controlling them.

You're right. After disinfecting the Server the geth willingfully joined Shepard.

I would also like to say that the geth never wanted to destroy organics until they fell under reaper influence. They just defended themselves against the quarians, but only against those who tried to harm them. When they abandoned rannoch, they didn't went after them, they could have easily destroyed the quarians if they wanted.

That's also an evidence against RieperBieber, who said the created will always turn against the creators. That's just false. They only did that when under reaper control.

Exactly (the first paragraph).
As for the Starchild's logic, the geth rebelled against the quarians but not in a traditional sense to defeat or crush them. They rebelled against their plans for the geth to be tools that can be deactivated whenever their masters wish to.

Modifié par paxxton, 05 juin 2012 - 11:08 .

[BleedingUranium]

paxxton wrote...

Corik wrote...

paxxton wrote...

Corik wrote...

Well, yes, but in the moment they follow the reapers they become slaves. In ME3 they couldn't do anything about that even when we were trying to make peace between Quarians and Geth, we had to destroy the reaper controlling them.

You're right. After disinfecting the Server the geth willingfully joined Shepard.

I would also like to say that the geth never wanted to destroy organics until they fell under reaper influence. They just defended themselves against the quarians, but only against those who tried to harm them. When they abandoned rannoch, they didn't went after them, they could have easily destroyed the quarians if they wanted.

That's also an evidence against RieperBieber, who said the created will always turn against the creators. That's just false. They only did that when under reaper control.

Exactly (the first paragraph).
As for the Starchild's logic, the geth rebelled against the quarians but not in a traditional sense to defeat or crush them. They rebelled against their plans for the geth to be tools that can be deactivated whenever their masters wish to.

And Starbinger implies that it's still bad, which is like saying if they Jews in Germany in the 40s rebelled it would be the Jews' fault.

Seriously, why does that word get censored?

[Lyria]

Haven't been on the boards in awhile.

We're calling the StarChild RieperBieber? That's awesome.
Best new development in Indoctrination Theory.

[Arian Dynas]

protognosis wrote...

Haven't been on the boards in awhile.

We're calling the StarChild RieperBieber? That's awesome.
Best new development in Indoctrination Theory.

Yo! Dude! Been a long time! *highfive*

[Corik]

protognosis wrote...

Haven't been on the boards in awhile.

We're calling the StarChild RieperBieber? That's awesome.
Best new development in Indoctrination Theory.

Heh, I saw it some time ago and I liked it. I usualy refer to starchild as Rieperbieber, and the kid "in human form" as The Illusive Boy.

[paxxton]

BleedingUranium wrote...

paxxton wrote...

Corik wrote...

paxxton wrote...

Corik wrote...

Well, yes, but in the moment they follow the reapers they become slaves. In ME3 they couldn't do anything about that even when we were trying to make peace between Quarians and Geth, we had to destroy the reaper controlling them.

You're right. After disinfecting the Server the geth willingfully joined Shepard.

I would also like to say that the geth never wanted to destroy organics until they fell under reaper influence. They just defended themselves against the quarians, but only against those who tried to harm them. When they abandoned rannoch, they didn't went after them, they could have easily destroyed the quarians if they wanted.

That's also an evidence against RieperBieber, who said the created will always turn against the creators. That's just false. They only did that when under reaper control.

Exactly (the first paragraph).
As for the Starchild's logic, the geth rebelled against the quarians but not in a traditional sense to defeat or crush them. They rebelled against their plans for the geth to be tools that can be deactivated whenever their masters wish to.

And Starbinger implies that it's still bad, which is like saying if they Jews in Germany in the 40s rebelled it would be the Jews' fault.

Seriously, why does that word get censored?

The Starchild's logic is sound given what we've seen in the game. The question is whether you agree with it or not.

Modifié par paxxton, 05 juin 2012 - 11:33 .

[Arian Dynas]

Eryri wrote...

Arian Dynas wrote...

... Rather than maintaining a million distinct personalities, minds and psyches, they form into one horrifying gestalt, a single mind formed of many, a mind more horrible than all of their collective cruelties inflicted upon the galaxy, something perfect, and terrible in it's perfection.

A mind that belives itself to be the end of evolution, a single mind now, which has come to the realization that it is the child of an entire great species, a species which sacrificed everything for it's creation, it's perfection. A perfection it must share, this is the greatest achivement that it's species could form, nay that ANY species could possibly achive, the creation of a collective mind so great, so mighty, a mind that is immortal, not subject to the ravages of time, capable of leveling continents and cities with insulting ease, surely something so great MUST be perfection incarnate, surely this is what is must be to be a God, and as we all know, Gods, are perfect, and all others must find a way to achive this perfection, no all others must be MADE to become as perfect as this new being.


It will help all others ascend to it's level, or if they refuse, they will be forced. This new being will bring them perfection, their destiny, it will be a Harbinger of all they will become...

That is absolutely brilliant. It's just the kind of origin and motivation the Reaper's need, rather than being glorified cosmic gamekeepers.
Culling advanced organic life as some sort of twisted and counter productive "conservation" policy seems so banal.

And the best part? It's straight from the horse's mouth.

"We are the Harbinger of your perfection."

"You are arrogant, Shepard. You will learn."

"We are the Harbinger of your ascendance."

"The forces of the universe bend to me."

"You are shortsighted."

"Evolution cannot be stopped."

"We are superior."

"Relinquish your form to us."

"We are your genetic destiny."

"You are ignorant, we are knowing."

"We do not die."

"I am limitless. You are bacteria."

"Your worlds will become our laboratories."

"Progress cannot be halted."

"Embrace perfection."
 
-Harbinger

"We are each a nation, independent, free of all weakness." - Sovereign

And if you read the books (which admittedly I have not yet gotten around to) you'll notice the Reapers are absolutely desperate to get you to agree with them, as though they NEED and want organics to agree with theif veiwpoints and methods... even if they have to trick them into doing so. (*cough*Synthesis*cough*)

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

Eryri wrote...

DJBare wrote...

Maybe it's time to think outside the box and stop considering the crucible a reaper off button?, I stopped believing that weeks ago, too many unknowns and suspicions surrounding it, the best example to me is we are forced into giving it a human reaper heart, in my opinion the crucible is a reaper device, and my guess is a mass indoctrination device.

The reason I'm on this track is because I do not believe Bioware would have gone for a reaper off button, I'm pretty sure that nearly all the devs would consider a reaper off button lame.

My thoughts exactly. Now THAT would be a good twist ending.

I persoanlly do not think it is mass Indoctrination device, because then there would be no logic in the Reapers trying to defend the Citadel at all. They could just let it connect and laugh (or whatever they do for laughing).

No I think simply the Crucible wont work, that it lacks some kind component (possibly a reaper part) and that it is purely a device for making the races lose time and resrouces in buidling and then taking out all resistance as the races launch a last desperate offensive to use the Crucible.

Problem with the Crucible not working is that if it does not work to at least some degree, then we have lost. Without the Crucible even the largest most powerful fleet you can gather will be wiped out. It will hurt the Reapers, but conventional victory at Earth is impossible from everything we are told and from everything I gathered doing number crunching on Sovereign class Reapers and Allied Dreadnoughts along with Arian.

We need an outside force of some kind, a super weapon or a miracle, the Crucible or otherwise, or the fleet at Earth is doomed and with it the rest of the Galaxy.