55528 réponses à ce sujet

[BleedingUranium]

What if the Crucible is an indoctrination device, and the Reapers themselves are indoctrinated, but we reverse the Crucible's effects, and un-indoctrinate everyone, including the Reapers?

[DJBare]

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

I persoanlly do not think it is mass Indoctrination device, because then there would be no logic in the Reapers trying to defend the Citadel at all. They could just let it connect and laugh (or whatever they do for laughing).

Show me exactly where they defended the citadel?, when the crucible arrived there were no reapers to be seen around the citadel, "conveniently" they broke off and headed for earth, in no scene do we see a full defense of the citadel by reapers, it was much too easy getting the crucible in place, and the argument the fleet pushed them back does not sit with me because these are reaper's we're talking about, they don't fall back.

[Lyria]

Arian Dynas wrote...

protognosis wrote...

Haven't been on the boards in awhile.

We're calling the StarChild RieperBieber? That's awesome.
Best new development in Indoctrination Theory.

Yo! Dude! Been a long time! *highfive*

 
*high five accepted*


 



 
Illusive Boy sounds like a poster child for an Indie bands self-made album. Or part of an Indoctrinated Duo....


 
I'm loving the idea of Reapers being the harbingers (pun intended) of our evolution beyond flesh.

Really wish synthesis was the cannon ending then.  allow for IT. Would make for an interesting EC dlc. But could also be worse than a ScoobyDoo plot.

At least it's better than

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

BleedingUranium wrote...

What if the Crucible is an indoctrination device, and the Reapers themselves are indoctrinated, but we reverse the Crucible's effects, and un-indoctrinate everyone, including the Reapers?

I dont think the Reapers are Indoctrinated. Remember no matter if it is the slow or fast kind of Indoctrination the victim of it will sooner or later suffer from neural decay. Unless there is some kind of special...something.... preventing this from happening to Reapers, they would be completely brainless after all these cycles considering even at its slowest the neural decay sets in after "a few years" on any victim.

Also as I posted last page, why defend the Citadel fi they want us to deploy the Crucible? They coudl just hang back, wait for us to deploy it and then laugh.

[paxxton]

BleedingUranium wrote...

What if the Crucible is an indoctrination device, and the Reapers themselves are indoctrinated, but we reverse the Crucible's effects, and un-indoctrinate everyone, including the Reapers?

 They indoctrinate each other? That's so organic of them.

Modifié par paxxton, 05 juin 2012 - 11:38 .

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

DJBare wrote...

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

I persoanlly do not think it is mass Indoctrination device, because then there would be no logic in the Reapers trying to defend the Citadel at all. They could just let it connect and laugh (or whatever they do for laughing).

Show me exactly where they defended the citadel?, when the crucible arrived there were no reapers to be seen around the citadel, "conveniently" they broke off and headed for earth, in no scene do we see a full defense of the citadel by reapers, it was much too easy getting the crucible in place, and the argument the fleet pushed them back does not sit with me because these are reaper's we're talking about, they don't fall back.

Go to 3:30 for a shot of Earth in th abckground, Citadel a little futher forward and a mass of Reapers in the foreground. A rough count made me end on no less than 20 Sovereign class Reapers directly between the fleet and the Citadel.

Go just abit futher to 3:55 as we see shots impacting the Reaper forces and you clearly see the line of Reapers with the Citadel behind them.

If they really wanted us to deploy the Crucible they could have left the Citadel where it was and just waited, no need for any of this.

Modifié par Raistlin Majare 1992, 05 juin 2012 - 11:41 .

[DJBare]

BleedingUranium wrote...

What if the Crucible is an indoctrination device, and the Reapers themselves are indoctrinated, but we reverse the Crucible's effects, and un-indoctrinate everyone, including the Reapers?

This has been one of my thoughts for a while, assuming the essense of each race is stored within reaper form it stands to reason the indoctrination would have to be maintained otherwise they would rebel against their new form, they are still conscious entities even if now melded with machine.

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

paxxton wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

What if the Crucible is an indoctrination device, and the Reapers themselves are indoctrinated, but we reverse the Crucible's effects, and un-indoctrinate everyone, including the Reapers?

 They indoctrinate each other? That's so organic of them.

We dont know if they Indoctrianted each other, In fact considering Indoctrination even at its most subttle and slow causes complete neural decay within just a few years Id consider Indoctrinated Reapers unlikely.

[paxxton]

DJBare wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

What if the Crucible is an indoctrination device, and the Reapers themselves are indoctrinated, but we reverse the Crucible's effects, and un-indoctrinate everyone, including the Reapers?

This has been one of my thoughts for a while, assuming the essense of each race is stored within reaper form it stands to reason the indoctrination would have to be maintained otherwise they would rebel against their new form, they are still conscious entities even if now melded with machine.

No, they are not conscious anymore. Genetic paste doesn't think. You remember that in ME2 humans were melted to a paste and pumped into tubes to feed the Proto-Reaper.

Modifié par paxxton, 05 juin 2012 - 12:07 .

[DJBare]

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

DJBare wrote...

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

I persoanlly do not think it is mass Indoctrination device, because then there would be no logic in the Reapers trying to defend the Citadel at all. They could just let it connect and laugh (or whatever they do for laughing).

Show me exactly where they defended the citadel?, when the crucible arrived there were no reapers to be seen around the citadel, "conveniently" they broke off and headed for earth, in no scene do we see a full defense of the citadel by reapers, it was much too easy getting the crucible in place, and the argument the fleet pushed them back does not sit with me because these are reaper's we're talking about, they don't fall back.

Go to 3:30 for a shot of Earth in th abckground, Citadel a little futher forward and a mass of Reapers in the foreground. A rough count made me end on no less than 20 Sovereign class Reapers directly between the fleet and the Citadel.

If they really wanted us to deploy the Crucible they could have left the Citadel where it was and just waited, no need for any of this.

That actually proves my point, note the reapers are leaving the defense position of the citadel, all of them, if they were truly defending the citadel some would have remained in a defense position,

[Arian Dynas]

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

Eryri wrote...

DJBare wrote...

Maybe it's time to think outside the box and stop considering the crucible a reaper off button?, I stopped believing that weeks ago, too many unknowns and suspicions surrounding it, the best example to me is we are forced into giving it a human reaper heart, in my opinion the crucible is a reaper device, and my guess is a mass indoctrination device.

The reason I'm on this track is because I do not believe Bioware would have gone for a reaper off button, I'm pretty sure that nearly all the devs would consider a reaper off button lame.

My thoughts exactly. Now THAT would be a good twist ending.

I persoanlly do not think it is mass Indoctrination device, because then there would be no logic in the Reapers trying to defend the Citadel at all. They could just let it connect and laugh (or whatever they do for laughing).

No I think simply the Crucible wont work, that it lacks some kind component (possibly a reaper part) and that it is purely a device for making the races lose time and resrouces in buidling and then taking out all resistance as the races launch a last desperate offensive to use the Crucible.

Problem with the Crucible not working is that if it does not work to at least some degree, then we have lost. Without the Crucible even the largest most powerful fleet you can gather will be wiped out. It will hurt the Reapers, but conventional victory at Earth is impossible from everything we are told and from everything I gathered doing number crunching on Sovereign class Reapers and Allied Dreadnoughts along with Arian.

We need an outside force of some kind, a super weapon or a miracle, the Crucible or otherwise, or the fleet at Earth is doomed and with it the rest of the Galaxy.

Which remains the theory I integrated into my script.

In my opinion the Crucible is a single massive wild goose chase. Make it simple to understand and to build, make it comprehensible so they feel safe building it and firing it up, make it easy to find so it gives them false hope, but also make your method of rendering it useless subtle enough to not be found. And the most important one, give it to your enemy, but don't appear to be doing so, so as not to rouse their suspicion.

Hence why I am of the opinion that the Crucible as a conventional superweapon WILL work... provided we can provide that one necessary piece to make it fire. I doubt it's an offswitch, but I do belive it is a really big gun.

[Arian Dynas]

protognosis wrote...

Arian Dynas wrote...

protognosis wrote...

Haven't been on the boards in awhile.

We're calling the StarChild RieperBieber? That's awesome.
Best new development in Indoctrination Theory.

Yo! Dude! Been a long time! *highfive*

 
*high five accepted*


 



 
Illusive Boy sounds like a poster child for an Indie bands self-made album. Or part of an Indoctrinated Duo....


 
I'm loving the idea of Reapers being the harbingers (pun intended) of our evolution beyond flesh.

Really wish synthesis was the cannon ending then.  allow for IT. Would make for an interesting EC dlc. But could also be worse than a ScoobyDoo plot.

At least it's better than

Welp, check out my sig for some good reading, and if you can manage to locate it, check out my blog for the same.

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

DJBare wrote...

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

DJBare wrote...

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

I persoanlly do not think it is mass Indoctrination device, because then there would be no logic in the Reapers trying to defend the Citadel at all. They could just let it connect and laugh (or whatever they do for laughing).

Show me exactly where they defended the citadel?, when the crucible arrived there were no reapers to be seen around the citadel, "conveniently" they broke off and headed for earth, in no scene do we see a full defense of the citadel by reapers, it was much too easy getting the crucible in place, and the argument the fleet pushed them back does not sit with me because these are reaper's we're talking about, they don't fall back.

Go to 3:30 for a shot of Earth in th abckground, Citadel a little futher forward and a mass of Reapers in the foreground. A rough count made me end on no less than 20 Sovereign class Reapers directly between the fleet and the Citadel.

If they really wanted us to deploy the Crucible they could have left the Citadel where it was and just waited, no need for any of this.

That actually proves my point, note the reapers are leaving the defense position of the citadel, all of them, if they were truly defending the citadel some would have remained in a defense position,

Ehm look what i posted later. They are simply setting up defensive line a little futher out from the Citadel, liekly so they dont have to worry about it when mauvering in the coming battle.

[Eryri]

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

I persoanlly do not think it is mass Indoctrination device, because then there would be no logic in the Reapers trying to defend the Citadel at all. They could just let it connect and laugh (or whatever they do for laughing).

No I think simply the Crucible wont work, that it lacks some kind component (possibly a reaper part) and that it is purely a device for making the races lose time and resrouces in buidling and then taking out all resistance as the races launch a last desperate offensive to use the Crucible.

Ok, you may be right there. An inoperable Crucible is just as devastating to the Alliance as a distraction and waste of resources as an actual indoctrination super weapon. However, from a purely dramatic standpoint, it could be an exciting race against time if Shepard discovers that the Crucible will do something terrible when activated and has to desperately try to stop it. Although he does have plenty of other things to worry about.

[quote]

Problem with the Crucible not working is that if it does not work to at least some degree, then we have lost. Without the Crucible even the largest most powerful fleet you can gather will be wiped out. It will hurt the Reapers, but conventional victory at Earth is impossible from everything we are told and from everything I gathered doing number crunching on Sovereign class Reapers and Allied Dreadnoughts along with Arian.

We need an outside force of some kind, a super weapon or a miracle, the Crucible or otherwise, or the fleet at Earth is doomed and with it the rest of the Galaxy.

[\\quote]

I and several other people have posted this idea in a few other threads, but I think the necessary miracle could come about because of the possible mental battle between Harbinger and Shepard after being hit by the beam. 

If Shep realises that he's experiencing an illusion, he might be able to fight his way out, in the way a soldier could understand, against some nightmarish avatar of Harbinger. If he's successful, it could weaken Harbinger the same way Sovereign was incapacitated in ME1 by Saren's death. This would have the added bonus of giving us a satisfying boss fight or fights in a new and weird environment.

A weakened Harbinger might lose telepathic control of the other Reapers, which as Arian Dynas suggested could be his indoctrinated subordinates. Once the Reapers are free they might break into pro and anti Harbinger factions and engage in civil war, tipping the balance in favour of the Alliance.

EDIT: sorry about the formatting, I can't get the hang of breaking up someone else's post to address individual points.

Modifié par Eryri, 05 juin 2012 - 12:29 .

[Arian Dynas]

Eryri wrote...

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

I persoanlly do not think it is mass Indoctrination device, because then there would be no logic in the Reapers trying to defend the Citadel at all. They could just let it connect and laugh (or whatever they do for laughing).

No I think simply the Crucible wont work, that it lacks some kind component (possibly a reaper part) and that it is purely a device for making the races lose time and resrouces in buidling and then taking out all resistance as the races launch a last desperate offensive to use the Crucible.

Ok, you may be right there. An inoperable Crucible is just as devastating to the Alliance as a distraction and waste of resources as an actual indoctrination super weapon. However, from a purely dramatic standpoint, it could be an exciting race against time if Shepard discovers that the Crucible will do something terrible when activated and has to desperately try to stop it. Although he does have plenty of other things to worry about.

Problem with the Crucible not working is that if it does not work to at least some degree, then we have lost. Without the Crucible even the largest most powerful fleet you can gather will be wiped out. It will hurt the Reapers, but conventional victory at Earth is impossible from everything we are told and from everything I gathered doing number crunching on Sovereign class Reapers and Allied Dreadnoughts along with Arian.

We need an outside force of some kind, a super weapon or a miracle, the Crucible or otherwise, or the fleet at Earth is doomed and with it the rest of the Galaxy.

I and several other people have posted this idea in a few other threads, but I think the necessary miracle could come about because of the possible mental battle between Harbinger and Shepard after being hit by the beam. 

If Shep realises that he's experiencing an illusion, he might be able to fight his way out, in the way a soldier could understand, against some nightmarish avatar of Harbinger. If he's successful, it could weaken Harbinger the same way Sovereign was incapacitated in ME1 by Saren's death. This would have the added bonus of giving us a satisfying boss fight or fights in a new and weird environment.

A weakened Harbinger might lose telepathic control of the other Reapers, which as Arian Dynas suggested could be his indoctrinated subordinates. Once the Reapers are free they might break into pro and anti Harbinger factions and engage in civil war, tipping the balance in favour of the Alliance.

I like it...

Modifié par Arian Dynas, 05 juin 2012 - 12:29 .

[Corik]

Arian Dynas wrote...

Eryri wrote...

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

I persoanlly do not think it is mass Indoctrination device, because then there would be no logic in the Reapers trying to defend the Citadel at all. They could just let it connect and laugh (or whatever they do for laughing).

No I think simply the Crucible wont work, that it lacks some kind component (possibly a reaper part) and that it is purely a device for making the races lose time and resrouces in buidling and then taking out all resistance as the races launch a last desperate offensive to use the Crucible.

Ok, you may be right there. An inoperable Crucible is just as devastating to the Alliance as a distraction and waste of resources as an actual indoctrination super weapon. However, from a purely dramatic standpoint, it could be an exciting race against time if Shepard discovers that the Crucible will do something terrible when activated and has to desperately try to stop it. Although he does have plenty of other things to worry about.

Problem with the Crucible not working is that if it does not work to at least some degree, then we have lost. Without the Crucible even the largest most powerful fleet you can gather will be wiped out. It will hurt the Reapers, but conventional victory at Earth is impossible from everything we are told and from everything I gathered doing number crunching on Sovereign class Reapers and Allied Dreadnoughts along with Arian.

We need an outside force of some kind, a super weapon or a miracle, the Crucible or otherwise, or the fleet at Earth is doomed and with it the rest of the Galaxy.

I and several other people have posted this idea in a few other threads, but I think the necessary miracle could come about because of the possible mental battle between Harbinger and Shepard after being hit by the beam. 

If Shep realises that he's experiencing an illusion, he might be able to fight his way out, in the way a soldier could understand, against some nightmarish avatar of Harbinger. If he's successful, it could weaken Harbinger the same way Sovereign was incapacitated in ME1 by Saren's death. This would have the added bonus of giving us a satisfying boss fight or fights in a new and weird environment.

A weakened Harbinger might lose telepathic control of the other Reapers, which as Arian Dynas suggested could be his indoctrinated subordinates. Once the Reapers are free they might break into pro and anti Harbinger factions and engage in civil war, tipping the balance in favour of the Alliance.

I like it...

So do I. The idea of a Reaper civil war is... nice. However, I would like to see it as a fight for power over the rest of the reapers while keeping the same brutal principles they had. I don't want to see suddenly good reapers. All of them must die xD

Modifié par Corik, 05 juin 2012 - 12:33 .

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

Eryri wrote...

Ok, you may be right there. An inoperable Crucible is just as devastating to the Alliance as a distraction and waste of resources as an actual indoctrination super weapon. However, from a purely dramatic standpoint, it could be an exciting race against time if Shepard discovers that the Crucible will do something terrible when activated and has to desperately try to stop it. Although he does have plenty of other things to worry about.

I and several other people have posted this idea in a few other threads, but I think the necessary miracle could come about because of the possible mental battle between Harbinger and Shepard after being hit by the beam. 

If Shep realises that he's experiencing an illusion, he might be able to fight his way out, in the way a soldier could understand, against some nightmarish avatar of Harbinger. If he's successful, it could weaken Harbinger the same way Sovereign was incapacitated in ME1 by Saren's death. This would have the added bonus of giving us a satisfying boss fight or fights in a new and weird environment.

A weakened Harbinger might lose telepathic control of the other Reapers, which as Arian Dynas suggested could be his indoctrinated subordinates. Once the Reapers are free they might break into pro and anti Harbinger factions and engage in civil war, tipping the balance in favour of the Alliance.

EDIT: sorry about the formatting, I can't get the hang of breaking up someone else's post to address individual points.

Two codex entries speak against both the idea of a mental feedback overload and the Indoctrinated Reaper theory:

First the mental feedback thing similar to Sovereign:

"Sovereign was destroyed while assuming direct control over Saren. The
feedback from Saren's death seemed to entirely overload Sovereign's
shields. Current Reapers do not seem to suffer from this design flaw.
"

Not that we really needed a codex to tell us this since Harbinger does alot of "assuming direct control" without any signs of a backlash effect apparent in ME2. Off course we cant see him, but if he was backlashed and lost control every tiem we destroyed his controlled Collector I doubt he would continue.

As for the Indoctrinated Reaper part, here is bit on indoctrination side effects:

"Long-term physical effects of the manipulation are unsustainable. Higher
mental functioning decays, ultimately leaving the victim a gibbering
animal. Rapid indoctrination is possible, but causes this decay in days
or weeks. Slow, patient indoctrination allows the thrall to last for
months or years."

Modifié par Raistlin Majare 1992, 05 juin 2012 - 12:37 .

[paxxton]

Corik wrote...

Arian Dynas wrote...

Eryri wrote...

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

I persoanlly do not think it is mass Indoctrination device, because then there would be no logic in the Reapers trying to defend the Citadel at all. They could just let it connect and laugh (or whatever they do for laughing).

No I think simply the Crucible wont work, that it lacks some kind component (possibly a reaper part) and that it is purely a device for making the races lose time and resrouces in buidling and then taking out all resistance as the races launch a last desperate offensive to use the Crucible.

Ok, you may be right there. An inoperable Crucible is just as devastating to the Alliance as a distraction and waste of resources as an actual indoctrination super weapon. However, from a purely dramatic standpoint, it could be an exciting race against time if Shepard discovers that the Crucible will do something terrible when activated and has to desperately try to stop it. Although he does have plenty of other things to worry about.

Problem with the Crucible not working is that if it does not work to at least some degree, then we have lost. Without the Crucible even the largest most powerful fleet you can gather will be wiped out. It will hurt the Reapers, but conventional victory at Earth is impossible from everything we are told and from everything I gathered doing number crunching on Sovereign class Reapers and Allied Dreadnoughts along with Arian.

We need an outside force of some kind, a super weapon or a miracle, the Crucible or otherwise, or the fleet at Earth is doomed and with it the rest of the Galaxy.

I and several other people have posted this idea in a few other threads, but I think the necessary miracle could come about because of the possible mental battle between Harbinger and Shepard after being hit by the beam. 

If Shep realises that he's experiencing an illusion, he might be able to fight his way out, in the way a soldier could understand, against some nightmarish avatar of Harbinger. If he's successful, it could weaken Harbinger the same way Sovereign was incapacitated in ME1 by Saren's death. This would have the added bonus of giving us a satisfying boss fight or fights in a new and weird environment.

A weakened Harbinger might lose telepathic control of the other Reapers, which as Arian Dynas suggested could be his indoctrinated subordinates. Once the Reapers are free they might break into pro and anti Harbinger factions and engage in civil war, tipping the balance in favour of the Alliance.

I like it...

So do I. The idea of a Reaper civil war is... nice. However, I would like to see it as a fight for power over the rest of the reapers while keeping the same brutal principles they had. I don't want to see suddenly good reapers. All of them must die xD

The problem is that you ascribe organic features to the Reapers and to their behavior. They don't have to be destroyed/disassembled in order to be defeated.

Modifié par paxxton, 05 juin 2012 - 12:43 .

[Eryri]

Corik wrote...

Arian Dynas wrote...

Eryri wrote...


I and several other people have posted this idea in a few other threads, but I think the necessary miracle could come about because of the possible mental battle between Harbinger and Shepard after being hit by the beam. 

If Shep realises that he's experiencing an illusion, he might be able to fight his way out, in the way a soldier could understand, against some nightmarish avatar of Harbinger. If he's successful, it could weaken Harbinger the same way Sovereign was incapacitated in ME1 by Saren's death. This would have the added bonus of giving us a satisfying boss fight or fights in a new and weird environment.

A weakened Harbinger might lose telepathic control of the other Reapers, which as Arian Dynas suggested could be his indoctrinated subordinates. Once the Reapers are free they might break into pro and anti Harbinger factions and engage in civil war, tipping the balance in favour of the Alliance.

I like it...

So do I. The idea of a Reaper civil war is... nice. However, I would like to see it as a fight for power over the rest of the reapers while keeping the same brutal principles they had. I don't want to see suddenly good reapers. All of them must die xD

Thanks guys. I don't think the Reapers need to become "good" necessarily, just acting in their own self interest to liberate themselves from Harbinger before he can re-establish control.

Afterwards the survivors can take themselves off the the depths of space to pursue their own new, unfathomable goals. They could become like the First Ones from Babylon 5 and be dark legends whispered about in seedy bars on Omega whenever a cargo ship mysteriously disappears. "The Reapers musta taken 'em!":alien:

[Corik]

paxxton wrote...

Corik wrote...

Arian Dynas wrote...

Eryri wrote...

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

I persoanlly do not think it is mass Indoctrination device, because then there would be no logic in the Reapers trying to defend the Citadel at all. They could just let it connect and laugh (or whatever they do for laughing).

No I think simply the Crucible wont work, that it lacks some kind component (possibly a reaper part) and that it is purely a device for making the races lose time and resrouces in buidling and then taking out all resistance as the races launch a last desperate offensive to use the Crucible.

Ok, you may be right there. An inoperable Crucible is just as devastating to the Alliance as a distraction and waste of resources as an actual indoctrination super weapon. However, from a purely dramatic standpoint, it could be an exciting race against time if Shepard discovers that the Crucible will do something terrible when activated and has to desperately try to stop it. Although he does have plenty of other things to worry about.

Problem with the Crucible not working is that if it does not work to at least some degree, then we have lost. Without the Crucible even the largest most powerful fleet you can gather will be wiped out. It will hurt the Reapers, but conventional victory at Earth is impossible from everything we are told and from everything I gathered doing number crunching on Sovereign class Reapers and Allied Dreadnoughts along with Arian.

We need an outside force of some kind, a super weapon or a miracle, the Crucible or otherwise, or the fleet at Earth is doomed and with it the rest of the Galaxy.

I and several other people have posted this idea in a few other threads, but I think the necessary miracle could come about because of the possible mental battle between Harbinger and Shepard after being hit by the beam. 

If Shep realises that he's experiencing an illusion, he might be able to fight his way out, in the way a soldier could understand, against some nightmarish avatar of Harbinger. If he's successful, it could weaken Harbinger the same way Sovereign was incapacitated in ME1 by Saren's death. This would have the added bonus of giving us a satisfying boss fight or fights in a new and weird environment.

A weakened Harbinger might lose telepathic control of the other Reapers, which as Arian Dynas suggested could be his indoctrinated subordinates. Once the Reapers are free they might break into pro and anti Harbinger factions and engage in civil war, tipping the balance in favour of the Alliance.

I like it...

So do I. The idea of a Reaper civil war is... nice. However, I would like to see it as a fight for power over the rest of the reapers while keeping the same brutal principles they had. I don't want to see suddenly good reapers. All of them must die xD

The problem is that you ascribe organic features to the Reapers and to their behavior.

Agreed. However I didn't say it was a perfect solution. Just a nice one. For me... I think the crucible must be the key to their defeat. We spent all the game building it... Using the citadel as Catalyst is not that crazy if the Crucible creates some kind of EM pulse affecting only reapers and using the Citadel (reaper origin) as a way to create and amplify the signal through the relays.

[paxxton]

Corik wrote...

paxxton wrote...

Corik wrote...

Arian Dynas wrote...

Eryri wrote...

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

I persoanlly do not think it is mass Indoctrination device, because then there would be no logic in the Reapers trying to defend the Citadel at all. They could just let it connect and laugh (or whatever they do for laughing).

No I think simply the Crucible wont work, that it lacks some kind component (possibly a reaper part) and that it is purely a device for making the races lose time and resrouces in buidling and then taking out all resistance as the races launch a last desperate offensive to use the Crucible.

Ok, you may be right there. An inoperable Crucible is just as devastating to the Alliance as a distraction and waste of resources as an actual indoctrination super weapon. However, from a purely dramatic standpoint, it could be an exciting race against time if Shepard discovers that the Crucible will do something terrible when activated and has to desperately try to stop it. Although he does have plenty of other things to worry about.

Problem with the Crucible not working is that if it does not work to at least some degree, then we have lost. Without the Crucible even the largest most powerful fleet you can gather will be wiped out. It will hurt the Reapers, but conventional victory at Earth is impossible from everything we are told and from everything I gathered doing number crunching on Sovereign class Reapers and Allied Dreadnoughts along with Arian.

We need an outside force of some kind, a super weapon or a miracle, the Crucible or otherwise, or the fleet at Earth is doomed and with it the rest of the Galaxy.

I and several other people have posted this idea in a few other threads, but I think the necessary miracle could come about because of the possible mental battle between Harbinger and Shepard after being hit by the beam. 

If Shep realises that he's experiencing an illusion, he might be able to fight his way out, in the way a soldier could understand, against some nightmarish avatar of Harbinger. If he's successful, it could weaken Harbinger the same way Sovereign was incapacitated in ME1 by Saren's death. This would have the added bonus of giving us a satisfying boss fight or fights in a new and weird environment.

A weakened Harbinger might lose telepathic control of the other Reapers, which as Arian Dynas suggested could be his indoctrinated subordinates. Once the Reapers are free they might break into pro and anti Harbinger factions and engage in civil war, tipping the balance in favour of the Alliance.

I like it...

So do I. The idea of a Reaper civil war is... nice. However, I would like to see it as a fight for power over the rest of the reapers while keeping the same brutal principles they had. I don't want to see suddenly good reapers. All of them must die xD

The problem is that you ascribe organic features to the Reapers and to their behavior.

Agreed. However I didn't say it was a perfect solution. Just a nice one. For me... I think the crucible must be the key to their defeat. We spent all the game building it... Using the citadel as Catalyst is not that crazy if the Crucible creates some kind of EM pulse affecting only reapers and using the Citadel (reaper origin) as a way to create and amplify the signal through the relays.

The Crucible + the Citadel sounds as a feasible way to defeat the Reapers. This is precisely why it might be used as a red herring - because it seems the correct way to go, to put resources into building. That's the deception. Whether it turns out this way depends on whether BioWare really intended that twist to be in the game.

Modifié par paxxton, 05 juin 2012 - 12:51 .

[Eryri]

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...




Two codex entries speak against both the idea of a mental feedback overload and the Indoctrinated Reaper theory:

First the mental feedback thing similar to Sovereign:

"Sovereign was destroyed while assuming direct control over Saren. The
feedback from Saren's death seemed to entirely overload Sovereign's
shields. Current Reapers do not seem to suffer from this design flaw.
"

Not that we really needed a codex to tell us this since Harbinger does alot of "assuming direct control" without any signs of a backlash effect apparent in ME2. Off course we cant see him, but if he was backlashed and lost control every tiem we destroyed his controlled Collector I doubt he would continue.

As for the Indoctrinated Reaper part, here is bit on indoctrination side effects:

"Long-term physical effects of the manipulation are unsustainable. Higher
mental functioning decays, ultimately leaving the victim a gibbering
animal. Rapid indoctrination is possible, but causes this decay in days
or weeks. Slow, patient indoctrination allows the thrall to last for
months or years."

True. But the Codex also states that Harbinger is believed to be the oldest reaper. If he is some sort of prototype, then he might have the same flaw that was built into Sovereign, which was later corrected in the newer models.

Also I think we could be forgiven for using a bit of artistic (please don't hate me for using that word) license with indoctrination regarding the other reapers. It wouldn't be indoctrination so much as a permanent programming feature written into them while they were being built that allows a paranoid, control-freak like Harbinger a back door into the minds of his creations.

That way he could check they weren't getting ideas about usurping him while still giving them the illusion of free will, so they could all fondly imagine that they were all "each a nation" while actually just being extensions of Harbinger's will. 

Modifié par Eryri, 05 juin 2012 - 12:53 .

[Arian Dynas]

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

Eryri wrote...

Ok, you may be right there. An inoperable Crucible is just as devastating to the Alliance as a distraction and waste of resources as an actual indoctrination super weapon. However, from a purely dramatic standpoint, it could be an exciting race against time if Shepard discovers that the Crucible will do something terrible when activated and has to desperately try to stop it. Although he does have plenty of other things to worry about.

I and several other people have posted this idea in a few other threads, but I think the necessary miracle could come about because of the possible mental battle between Harbinger and Shepard after being hit by the beam. 

If Shep realises that he's experiencing an illusion, he might be able to fight his way out, in the way a soldier could understand, against some nightmarish avatar of Harbinger. If he's successful, it could weaken Harbinger the same way Sovereign was incapacitated in ME1 by Saren's death. This would have the added bonus of giving us a satisfying boss fight or fights in a new and weird environment.

A weakened Harbinger might lose telepathic control of the other Reapers, which as Arian Dynas suggested could be his indoctrinated subordinates. Once the Reapers are free they might break into pro and anti Harbinger factions and engage in civil war, tipping the balance in favour of the Alliance.

EDIT: sorry about the formatting, I can't get the hang of breaking up someone else's post to address individual points.

Two codex entries speak against both the idea of a mental feedback overload and the Indoctrinated Reaper theory:

First the mental feedback thing similar to Sovereign:

"Sovereign was destroyed while assuming direct control over Saren. The
feedback from Saren's death seemed to entirely overload Sovereign's
shields. Current Reapers do not seem to suffer from this design flaw.
"

Not that we really needed a codex to tell us this since Harbinger does alot of "assuming direct control" without any signs of a backlash effect apparent in ME2. Off course we cant see him, but if he was backlashed and lost control every tiem we destroyed his controlled Collector I doubt he would continue.

As for the Indoctrinated Reaper part, here is bit on indoctrination side effects:

"Long-term physical effects of the manipulation are unsustainable. Higher
mental functioning decays, ultimately leaving the victim a gibbering
animal. Rapid indoctrination is possible, but causes this decay in days
or weeks. Slow, patient indoctrination allows the thrall to last for
months or years."

Well, admittedly, the idea that the reapers are "indoctrinated" by Harbinger had not occured to me, but in a way it does make sense, otherwise, I am quite certain that 95% of the races he "ascends" would happily blow him to hell in revenge. Possibly even each other. And that paticular bit from the codex felt suspiciously like forshadowing, from my point of veiw. And more to the point, it's not exactly the same, Saren was feedback from his death, this would be, well refusual, which could potentially be even more shocking.

[Arian Dynas]

Eryri wrote...

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...




Two codex entries speak against both the idea of a mental feedback overload and the Indoctrinated Reaper theory:

First the mental feedback thing similar to Sovereign:

"Sovereign was destroyed while assuming direct control over Saren. The
feedback from Saren's death seemed to entirely overload Sovereign's
shields. Current Reapers do not seem to suffer from this design flaw.
"

Not that we really needed a codex to tell us this since Harbinger does alot of "assuming direct control" without any signs of a backlash effect apparent in ME2. Off course we cant see him, but if he was backlashed and lost control every tiem we destroyed his controlled Collector I doubt he would continue.

As for the Indoctrinated Reaper part, here is bit on indoctrination side effects:

"Long-term physical effects of the manipulation are unsustainable. Higher
mental functioning decays, ultimately leaving the victim a gibbering
animal. Rapid indoctrination is possible, but causes this decay in days
or weeks. Slow, patient indoctrination allows the thrall to last for
months or years."

True. But the Codex also states that Harbinger is believed to be the oldest reaper. If he is some sort of prototype, then he might have the same flaw that was built into Sovereign, which was later corrected in the newer models.

Also I think we could be forgiven for using a bit of artistic (please don't hate me for using that word) license with indoctrination regarding the other reapers. It wouldn't be indoctrination so much as a permanent programming feature written into them while they were being built that allows a paranoid, control-freak like Harbinger a back door into the minds of his creations.

That way he could check they weren't getting ideas about usurping him while still giving them the illusion of free will, so they could all fondly imagine that they were all "each a nation" while actually just being extensions of Harbinger's will. 

Get your ass out of this thread and go write a novel, you're wasted here. 

I like this idea a great deal, and it seems to fit fairly well, considering what we do know of the Harbinger.

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

Eryri wrote...

True. But the Codex also states that Harbinger is believed to be the oldest reaper. If he is some sort of prototype, then he might have the same flaw that was built into Sovereign, which was later corrected in the newer models.

Also I think we could be forgiven for using a bit of artistic (please don't hate me for using that word) license with indoctrination regarding the other reapers. It wouldn't be indoctrination so much as a permanent programming feature written into them while they were being built that allows a paranoid, control-freak like Harbinger a back door into the minds of his creations.

That way he could check they weren't getting ideas about usurping him while still giving them the illusion of free will, so they could all fondly imagine that they were all "each a nation" while actually just being extensions of Harbinger's will. 

They havent build a single new Reaper (except the Proto Reaper from ME2) so fi the flaw is corrected I think we can safely assume it is corrected in all reapers, especially Harbinegr who as i emntioned is repeatedly doing the "Asssuming direct control" trick in ME2.

Also if it is deep programming that prevents the Reapers from rebelling against Harby then he is pretty stupid if that entire programming simply seizes to work just because he is disabled. More likely he woudl include programming to order the Reapers to protect him at all cost should he become badly damaged if that was the case.