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[HellishFiend]

Arian Dynas wrote...

Makrys wrote...

Guys... do we honestly think Mac Walters and Casey Hudson are brilliant enough to think up the IT though? They alone crafted the end. I am just doubtful that Walters could write something so complicated and brilliant. The guy has not impressed me with his plot writing. I'm beginning to become a bit doubtful of the IT, personally.

Which saddens me...

*cracks his knuckles*

Ok, in defense of our good buddy Mac, let's look at a few things.

One, the idea that Mac Walters and Casey Hudson wrote this alone, just them, with no outside input, is a complete load of crap. Putting aside the fact that Bioware themselves denied this, that the supposed source who put out this idea in the first place denied this, and setting aside the fact that I personally highly doubt Casey Hudson OR Mac Walters are anywhere near that arrogant, consider a few things;

1. There is no way. NONE that it could have possibly made it's way into the script without being seen by the entire writing team, no possibility of it whatsoever. it would have to get past the writing team, the design team, the marketing team, the testers, the test audience AND Dr. Musyka himself without being questioned. I find the odds on that to be long to the point of absurdity.

2.Let's see here, Casey worked on KotOR, famous for what? Oh right a plot twist. Mac is a psychology major, meaning he is capable of understanding the human mind, and knows about mental diseases and processes, in fact I would be willing to bet you the concept of indoctrination was his to begin with.

3. Both have been on board since ME1, they both remain VERY familiar with the series, this literally spits in the face of what they made, they would have to have brain damage to not notice this.

4. The plot writing of Mass Effect, while good, has never been paticularly strong. Mass Effect is driven not by the plot, but by its characters, it is a VERY character driven story in fact, and Mac was involved with alot of that, seeing as he was a major writer in ME 1 and co-lead writer in ME 2.

The more we investigate and develop IT, the more I'm tending to think that the ME trilogy was actually borne from the concept of "Indoctrinating the Player". When they had the concept, they designed a storyline around it. I think they wanted to outdo themselves, and they certainly have. Some might say they even bit more than they anticipated...

[dreamgazer]

Arian Dynas wrote...

Makrys wrote...

Guys... do we honestly think Mac Walters and Casey Hudson are brilliant enough to think up the IT though? They alone crafted the end. I am just doubtful that Walters could write something so complicated and brilliant. The guy has not impressed me with his plot writing. I'm beginning to become a bit doubtful of the IT, personally.

Which saddens me...

*cracks his knuckles*

Ok, in defense of our good buddy Mac, let's look at a few things.

One, the idea that Mac Walters and Casey Hudson wrote this alone, just them, with no outside input, is a complete load of crap. Putting aside the fact that Bioware themselves denied this, that the supposed source who put out this idea in the first place denied this, and setting aside the fact that I personally highly doubt Casey Hudson OR Mac Walters are anywhere near that arrogant, consider a few things;

1. There is no way. NONE that it could have possibly made it's way into the script without being seen by the entire writing team, no possibility of it whatsoever. it would have to get past the writing team, the design team, the marketing team, the testers, the test audience AND Dr. Musyka himself without being questioned. I find the odds on that to be long to the point of absurdity.

2.Let's see here, Casey worked on KotOR, famous for what? Oh right a plot twist. Mac is a psychology major, meaning he is capable of understanding the human mind, and knows about mental diseases and processes, in fact I would be willing to bet you the concept of indoctrination was his to begin with.

3. Both have been on board since ME1, they both remain VERY familiar with the series, this literally spits in the face of what they made, they would have to have brain damage to not notice this.

4. The plot writing of Mass Effect, while good, has never been paticularly strong. Mass Effect is driven not by the plot, but by its characters, it is a VERY character driven story in fact, and Mac was involved with alot of that, seeing as he was a major writer in ME 1 and co-lead writer in ME 2.

All of this is spot-on, but the bolded parts are things I think are highly significant.  This reeks of psychological mind-play and interpretation.  It might divert from the stay-the-course plotting of the first two games, but that doesn't mean they can't execute something unique and surprising with their grand finale. 

[Riot86]

balance5050 wrote...

Fact is, those chunks have to be the crucible becasue of the positioning, there's absolutly nothing else it could be becasue there was nothing else on that side of the citadel besides the crucible, the peice may have been made out to be bigger so that they could be easily noticed........

The flaps I mentioned (who about are about the size of those chunks) are also on that side of the Citadel. Remember, the Crucible docked from behind.

[FreddyCast]

HellishFiend wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

Playing devil's advocate: revealing that the Reapers' grand design as being somewhat "benevolent" could be considered a weak twist in that vein.

Still, it's not that gut-wrenching of a twist, and BioWare knows how to telegraph those.  If that quote is real, it could be very suggestive.

I'm fairly certain that is just Reaper propaganda being used to try and confuse Shepard. Aside from their "claims", we have literally no reason to believe they are carrying out a benevolent purpose. 

Remember This:
Question: So how do you stop something unstoppably massive?

Casey Hudson: That's something we reveal over time. You see humans being harvested and processed to become fuel for the way Reapers reproduce. This is their reproductive cycle and we're just a part of it. We're nothing to them.

[dreamgazer]

HellishFiend wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

Playing devil's advocate: revealing that the Reapers' grand design as being somewhat "benevolent" could be considered a weak twist in that vein.

Still, it's not that gut-wrenching of a twist, and BioWare knows how to telegraph those.  If that quote is real, it could be very suggestive.

I'm fairly certain that is just Reaper propaganda being used to try and confuse Shepard. Aside from their "claims", we have literally no reason to believe they are carrying out a benevolent purpose. 

Oh, I agree with you, wholeheartedly ... but I'm also guilty of occasionally overthinking and overanalyzing things.

[HellishFiend]

balance5050 wrote...

Fact is, those chunks have to be the crucible becasue of the positioning, there's absolutly nothing else it could be becasue there was nothing else on that side of the citadel besides the crucible, the peice may have been made out to be bigger so that they could be easily noticed........

Unfortunately that is a bit hypocritical on our part, if we claim that. We constantly reject the idea that liberties and practicality are responsible for things we refer to as clues. 

Those chunks are definitely bigger than the Crucible itself, but are sized appropriately if they are the outer discarded shell.

In any case, I think it's rather moot since I think both camps are barking up the wrong tree with this one. I dont think there are any clues in this particular element of the ending. 

[balance5050]

Riot86 wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

Fact is, those chunks have to be the crucible becasue of the positioning, there's absolutly nothing else it could be becasue there was nothing else on that side of the citadel besides the crucible, the peice may have been made out to be bigger so that they could be easily noticed........

The flaps I mentioned (who about are about the size of those chunks) are also on that side of the Citadel. Remember, the Crucible docked from behind.

They aren't coming from the arms they're coming from the center.

[Makrys]

Arian Dynas wrote...

Makrys wrote...

Guys... do we honestly think Mac Walters and Casey Hudson are brilliant enough to think up the IT though? They alone crafted the end. I am just doubtful that Walters could write something so complicated and brilliant. The guy has not impressed me with his plot writing. I'm beginning to become a bit doubtful of the IT, personally.

Which saddens me...

*cracks his knuckles*

Ok, in defense of our good buddy Mac, let's look at a few things.

One, the idea that Mac Walters and Casey Hudson wrote this alone, just them, with no outside input, is a complete load of crap. Putting aside the fact that Bioware themselves denied this, that the supposed source who put out this idea in the first place denied this, and setting aside the fact that I personally highly doubt Casey Hudson OR Mac Walters are anywhere near that arrogant, consider a few things;

1. There is no way. NONE that it could have possibly made it's way into the script without being seen by the entire writing team, no possibility of it whatsoever. it would have to get past the writing team, the design team, the marketing team, the testers, the test audience AND Dr. Musyka himself without being questioned. I find the odds on that to be long to the point of absurdity.

2.Let's see here, Casey worked on KotOR, famous for what? Oh right a plot twist. Mac is a psychology major, meaning he is capable of understanding the human mind, and knows about mental diseases and processes, in fact I would be willing to bet you the concept of indoctrination was his to begin with.

3. Both have been on board since ME1, they both remain VERY familiar with the series, this literally spits in the face of what they made, they would have to have brain damage to not notice this.

4. The plot writing of Mass Effect, while good, has never been paticularly strong. Mass Effect is driven not by the plot, but by its characters, it is a VERY character driven story in fact, and Mac was involved with alot of that, seeing as he was a major writer in ME 1 and co-lead writer in ME 2.

In reference to your first point, I was unaware of that. I simply had heard the rumor numerous times and assumed it had been true. Didn't know it had been denied multiple times. So I wasn't claiming that, simply stating what I had heard alledgedly happened. Your case makes more sense though. And honestly, I never thought that whole idea of them alone writing the ending made much sense if any at all. So, I agree.

In reference to two, that is some very interesting information. I seem to recall hearing that awhile back and totally forgot it, and totally forgot or never even knew it was Walters. That is indeed very interesting.

Three, agreed. Always stated this in defense of IT. Goes against all their work. Makes no sense to do that.

Four, also agreed, although I thought the plot of the first game was great personally. Two, was much less complicated and more character driven in my opinion though. Much less about the plot and more about the characters. I think ME3 was a good blend, personally. 

Overall, your points are very convincing. I just hope to God you're right.

Is it possible they planned the EC to reveal the twist, but didn't expect the backlash from the original endings so they had to move forward, announce it, and maybe proceed with it sooner than planned? To me honestly, the EC is what confuses me about the IT. The way they've handled it.

Modifié par Makrys, 06 juin 2012 - 04:06 .

[Unschuld]

Makrys wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

In short, rewatch the easy-to-digest twenty-minute video in the first post. That's the mostly surface-level clues, the stuff that normal people could interpret. The rest is compelling noise; the stuff in that video is what's convincing.

I've seen it many times. And it was the first thing that convinced me of it. However, I'm starting to doubt Bioware's ability... though I still hold hope. 

Why would they take all the steps they've taken with the EC? Did they plan it? If so, why were VA's called back in? And rescheduling of their DLC line up done? It just... doesn't fall into place in some areas. I'm all ears if someone can explain these types of things though.

Don't look for people to reconvince you into believing something by having them restate rhetoric. If you find ****** in your resolve, investigate it yourself in an objective manner while trying your best to leave bias out of the equation and weigh alternate solutions against it. The end outcome is that you either reaffirm logic in your previous viewpoint, or you don't and you move on.

[Makrys]

Unschuld wrote...

Makrys wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

In short, rewatch the easy-to-digest twenty-minute video in the first post. That's the mostly surface-level clues, the stuff that normal people could interpret. The rest is compelling noise; the stuff in that video is what's convincing.

I've seen it many times. And it was the first thing that convinced me of it. However, I'm starting to doubt Bioware's ability... though I still hold hope. 

Why would they take all the steps they've taken with the EC? Did they plan it? If so, why were VA's called back in? And rescheduling of their DLC line up done? It just... doesn't fall into place in some areas. I'm all ears if someone can explain these types of things though.

Don't look for people to reconvince you into believing something by having them restate rhetoric. If you find ****** in your resolve, investigate it yourself in an objective manner while trying your best to leave bias out of the equation and weigh alternate solutions against it. The end outcome is that you either reaffirm logic in your previous viewpoint, or you don't and you move on.

Calm down. I'm simply looking for opinions. I've done all the investigating I can. I've done a ton of research. It is because I went searching for things that I believed in the IT. I just want to hear everyone's best case argument.

[HellishFiend]

Unschuld wrote...

Don't look for people to reconvince you into believing something by having them restate rhetoric. If you find ****** in your resolve, investigate it yourself in an objective manner while trying your best to leave bias out of the equation and weigh alternate solutions against it. The end outcome is that you either reaffirm logic in your previous viewpoint, or you don't and you move on.

Wise words. When you think about it, that sort of thing is of the same ilk as requiring others to agree with you and validate your opinion in order to feel good about it. Neither thing is a very healthy practice. 

Though Makrys really did just ask a harmless question, to be honest, and it isnt a bad thing to discuss in this topic.

Modifié par HellishFiend, 06 juin 2012 - 04:04 .

[balance5050]

HellishFiend wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

Fact is, those chunks have to be the crucible becasue of the positioning, there's absolutly nothing else it could be becasue there was nothing else on that side of the citadel besides the crucible, the peice may have been made out to be bigger so that they could be easily noticed........

Unfortunately that is a bit hypocritical on our part, if we claim that. We constantly reject the idea that liberties and practicality are responsible for things we refer to as clues. 

Those chunks are definitely bigger than the Crucible itself, but are sized appropriately if they are the outer discarded shell.

In any case, I think it's rather moot since I think both camps are barking up the wrong tree with this one. I dont think there are any clues in this particular element of the ending. 

We can't claim that for the end though because there is symbology and clues in the ending that aren't "practical", there's nothing prctical about shooting a tube to activate an advanced mechanism. The chunks come from the center of the other side of the inner ring, NOTHING IS THERE, besides the crucible.....

EDIT: and that small explosion can't tear off the hull of the citadel considering what the hull is made of and the fact that it can withstand a super nova's wake. The only thing there that's brittle enough to fall to peices like that is the crucible.

Modifié par balance5050, 06 juin 2012 - 04:12 .

[Unschuld]

Makrys wrote...
Calm down. I'm simply looking for opinions. I've done all the investigating I can. I've done a ton of research. It is because I went searching for things that I believed in the IT. I just want to hear everyone's best case argument.

That post wasn't meant to be interpreted as confrontational, it was meant as simple advice.

[dreamgazer]

Unschuld wrote...

Don't look for people to reconvince you into believing something by having them restate rhetoric. If you find ****** in your resolve, investigate it yourself in an objective manner while trying your best to leave bias out of the equation and weigh alternate solutions against it. The end outcome is that you either reaffirm logic in your previous viewpoint, or you don't and you move on.

Great post.  

If you feel like your interpretation is wavering, reaffirm it with your own inspection and not the words of people who will offer you the same song and dance.

[Bill Casey]

Makrys wrote...

If ya'll could give your best argument for IT summed up as much as possible, within at least a single paragraph, what would it be? I'm genuinely curious.

Shepard was hearing whispers, seeing oily shadows, shooting people against his will, he passed out from blood loss and then reality went away. He is talking to the Reaper King who is also the thing he is seeking and the child from his dreams, every choice is activated metaphorically, you are watching Anderson and the Illusive Man activate the choices, and two of the three options are things Reapers brainwash people into believing...

[Makrys]

Ok, never mind? People are interpretating my motive in the wrong light. Wasn't asking for anyone to 'win me back'. Just wanted everyone's best case argument because I was curious.

Modifié par Makrys, 06 juin 2012 - 04:09 .

[HellishFiend]

balance5050 wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

Fact is, those chunks have to be the crucible becasue of the positioning, there's absolutly nothing else it could be becasue there was nothing else on that side of the citadel besides the crucible, the peice may have been made out to be bigger so that they could be easily noticed........

Unfortunately that is a bit hypocritical on our part, if we claim that. We constantly reject the idea that liberties and practicality are responsible for things we refer to as clues. 

Those chunks are definitely bigger than the Crucible itself, but are sized appropriately if they are the outer discarded shell.

In any case, I think it's rather moot since I think both camps are barking up the wrong tree with this one. I dont think there are any clues in this particular element of the ending. 

We can't claim that that for the end though because there is symbology and clues inthe ending that aren't "practical", there's nothing prctical about shooting a tube to activate an advanced mechanism. The chunks come from the center other side of the inner ring, NOTHING IS THERE, besides the crucible.....

Hey, we're on the same side here, remember? You dont have to remind me of those things.... All I'm saying is that we cant hold "Its done this way because they needed to make it more obvious" in one hand, and hold "It couldnt be done that way because it was easier. Its a clue!" in the other hand. 

[Makrys]

Bill Casey wrote...

Makrys wrote...

If ya'll could give your best argument for IT summed up as much as possible, within at least a single paragraph, what would it be? I'm genuinely curious.

Shepard was hearing whispers, seeing oily shadows, shooting people against his will, he passed out from blood loss and then reality went away. He is talking to the Reaper King who is also the thing he is seeking and the child from his dreams, every choice is activated metaphorically, you are watching Anderson and the Illusive Man activate the choices, and two of the three options are things Reapers brainwash people into believing...

Always concise and to the point with your evidence, Casey.

Modifié par Makrys, 06 juin 2012 - 04:11 .

[prettz]

I'm sorry but every time I see this pic, I only see this

[HellishFiend]

Makrys wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

Makrys wrote...

If ya'll could give your best argument for IT summed up as much as possible, within at least a single paragraph, what would it be? I'm genuinely curious.

Shepard was hearing whispers, seeing oily shadows, shooting people against his will, he passed out from blood loss and then reality went away. He is talking to the Reaper King who is also the thing he is seeking and the child from his dreams, every choice is activated metaphorically, you are watching Anderson and the Illusive Man activate the choices, and two of the three options are things Reapers brainwash people into believing...

You've always been someone I just wanted to throw at the anti-ITists. You make the most concise and direct points of evidence.

Indeed. It probably would have taken me two or three times as many words to say that exact same thing. 

[balance5050]

HellishFiend wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

Fact is, those chunks have to be the crucible becasue of the positioning, there's absolutly nothing else it could be becasue there was nothing else on that side of the citadel besides the crucible, the peice may have been made out to be bigger so that they could be easily noticed........

Unfortunately that is a bit hypocritical on our part, if we claim that. We constantly reject the idea that liberties and practicality are responsible for things we refer to as clues. 

Those chunks are definitely bigger than the Crucible itself, but are sized appropriately if they are the outer discarded shell.

In any case, I think it's rather moot since I think both camps are barking up the wrong tree with this one. I dont think there are any clues in this particular element of the ending. 

We can't claim that that for the end though because there is symbology and clues inthe ending that aren't "practical", there's nothing prctical about shooting a tube to activate an advanced mechanism. The chunks come from the center other side of the inner ring, NOTHING IS THERE, besides the crucible.....

Hey, we're on the same side here, remember? You dont have to remind me of those things.... All I'm saying is that we cant hold "Its done this way because they needed to make it more obvious" in one hand, and hold "It couldnt be done that way because it was easier. Its a clue!" in the other hand. 

Right... I'm just saying that to think that those chunks are anything but the crucible forgets what the citadel is made of, check my edit.

I remember we're on the same side but disinformation is a nono to me, the chunks are the crucuble, the citadel isn't that brittle.

[Riot86]

balance5050 wrote...

They aren't coming from the arms they're coming from the center.

As far as i can tell they are coming from the arms
Bits of the chunk on the lower left can be seen after the first "small" explosion at the base of the arm at  7 o' clock (at about 0:07 in the YT-vid). Afterwards this piece of chunk drifts slowly away from this arm.

[Arian Dynas]

Makrys wrote...

Arian Dynas wrote...

Makrys wrote...

Guys... do we honestly think Mac Walters and Casey Hudson are brilliant enough to think up the IT though? They alone crafted the end. I am just doubtful that Walters could write something so complicated and brilliant. The guy has not impressed me with his plot writing. I'm beginning to become a bit doubtful of the IT, personally.

Which saddens me...

*cracks his knuckles*

Ok, in defense of our good buddy Mac, let's look at a few things.

One, the idea that Mac Walters and Casey Hudson wrote this alone, just them, with no outside input, is a complete load of crap. Putting aside the fact that Bioware themselves denied this, that the supposed source who put out this idea in the first place denied this, and setting aside the fact that I personally highly doubt Casey Hudson OR Mac Walters are anywhere near that arrogant, consider a few things;

1. There is no way. NONE that it could have possibly made it's way into the script without being seen by the entire writing team, no possibility of it whatsoever. it would have to get past the writing team, the design team, the marketing team, the testers, the test audience AND Dr. Musyka himself without being questioned. I find the odds on that to be long to the point of absurdity.

2.Let's see here, Casey worked on KotOR, famous for what? Oh right a plot twist. Mac is a psychology major, meaning he is capable of understanding the human mind, and knows about mental diseases and processes, in fact I would be willing to bet you the concept of indoctrination was his to begin with.

3. Both have been on board since ME1, they both remain VERY familiar with the series, this literally spits in the face of what they made, they would have to have brain damage to not notice this.

4. The plot writing of Mass Effect, while good, has never been paticularly strong. Mass Effect is driven not by the plot, but by its characters, it is a VERY character driven story in fact, and Mac was involved with alot of that, seeing as he was a major writer in ME 1 and co-lead writer in ME 2.

In reference to your first point, I was unaware of that. I simply had heard the rumor numerous times and assumed it had been true. Didn't know it had been denied multiple times. So I wasn't claiming that, simply stating what I had heard alledgedly happened. Your case makes more sense though. And honestly, I never thought that whole idea of them alone writing the ending made much sense if any at all. So, I agree.

In reference to two, that is some very interesting information. I seem to recall hearing that awhile back and totally forgot it, and totally forgot or never even knew it was Walters. That is indeed very interesting.

Three, agreed. Always stated this in defense of IT. Goes against all their work. Makes no sense to do that.

Four, also agreed, although I thought the plot of the first game was great personally. Two, was much less complicated and much more character driven in my opinion though. Much less about the plot and more about the characters. I think ME3 was a good blend, personally. 

Overall, your points are very convincing. I just hope to God to your right.

Is it possible they planned the EC to reveal the twist, but didn't expect the backlash from the original endings so they had to move forward, announce it, and maybe proceed with it sooner than planned? To me honestly, the EC is what confuses me about the IT. The way they've handled it.

I don't doubt it. This is just me putting that baby to rest. Also, you ever notice that really the big divide about IT is who you beleive is lying? If you beleive IT you think Bioware is telling the truth and the Guardian is lying, if you don't beleive IT, you think Bioware is lying. Seeing as "Bioware is lying since they don't want to look bad" is the only dismissal of this paticular point well...

Mac is apparently of the opinon he's the one who frittered his life away learning psychology whereas Casey did something useful and became an engineer. But I think that was a joke.

Exactly.

Well..... the plot of ME 1 is simple and fairly pedestrian, it's very traditional, and THAT IS NO BAD THING! A simple plot is not necessarily bad if it's done well, which Mass Effect was, and in addition it had a few good twists you didn't expect. ME2 was almost straightforward actually, it was refreshingly Orwellian in style, which is why I highly HIGHLY doubt ME3 is an allegory like many Sci-Fi writers and apologists are claiming it to be, a "metaphor about the nature of the universe as an uncaring entity of which fate is unavoidable" or some such tosh as that. You do not switch styles in the same story without a clear divide dudes, this is basic 101 writing.

[Rosewind]

prettz wrote...

I'm sorry but every time I see this pic, I only see this

Lol agreed, just a blurry monster spitting fire!!!

[dreamgazer]

Makrys wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

Makrys wrote...

If ya'll could give your best argument for IT summed up as much as possible, within at least a single paragraph, what would it be? I'm genuinely curious.

Shepard was hearing whispers, seeing oily shadows, shooting people against his will, he passed out from blood loss and then reality went away. He is talking to the Reaper King who is also the thing he is seeking and the child from his dreams, every choice is activated metaphorically, you are watching Anderson and the Illusive Man activate the choices, and two of the three options are things Reapers brainwash people into believing...

You've always been someone I just wanted to throw at the anti-ITists. You make the most concise and direct points of evidence.

Yeah, his ellipses-laced posts are an asset across the forum.