55528 réponses à ce sujet

[MaximizedAction]

HellishFiend wrote...

paxxton wrote...

I'm still not convinced by that "Anderson looking in the camera" thing. It might be just a coincidence when he was moving his eyes and their line of sight crossed the camera.

Nothing is a coincidence in Citadel: The Return. Bioware explicitly stated that it is "choreographed down to the second". Theyve also specifically mentioned eye movement and camera perspective as things they use as storytelling devices. 

That last sentence reminds me:

Remember the face import issue? My Shep imported correctly, or, as far as correctly goes:
The 'most correct" eyes that I could find were bigger than my ME1/ME2 Shep's eyes. in some threads, posters also complained about the eyes being just a little off.

I think BW modeled the eyes bigger for a reason.
WHERE someone is looking at, and HOW certain eyes look.
For example:
- Anderson's eyes in the transporter and his 4th wall break on the Citadel.
- Shepard's eyes depending on your end choice.

[dreamgazer]

Corik wrote...

Oh ffs. That's symbolic. I can't think of anything more symbolic than Shepard being forced to shoot Anderson and few seconds after that the camera focusing on a weird wound on Shepard in the exact spot where Anderson was shooted... and ****ing bleeding out. There's no way he could be bleeding from his arms. Harby's attack is impossible to provoke such bleeding anywhere.

He could be bleeding from the arms from a physiological standpoint, given the severity of burns and shrapnel, but the rest of this is highly accurate. 

[llbountyhunter]

HellishFiend wrote...

llbountyhunter wrote...

Ok, i know i said i was done, but let me take one last stab at it.

Is it possible that you are confusing "speculation' with "creation"?

Because when your writing or making something, by all means, go as far and wide as you want. Its your creation after all.

BUT when your speculating, your connecting the dots on something that someone else made. Your supposed to figure out what everything is hinting at.... not make ramdon conclusions with no basis whatsoever. Here moderation is key.

Yes, even in liturature.

I guess it depends on what exactly the purpose of your activity is. If you are truly trying to speculate as to the author's intent, one could argue that a foundation of logic is required. 

However, since the author has not yet revealed the truth, there are no rules or boundaries. This is a work of fiction. Thus there is no possibility for moderation, let alone a place for it. Until the truth is set in black and white somewhere, the only true moderator is your own perception and interpretation. If you dont agree with someones idea or concept, your own personal moderator rejects it. That doesnt reach into the other person's mind and invalidate their opinion in their own mind, though. 

Remember, while we are engaging in a social activity here, literary analysis at its core is an internal, personal thing. Even if you're trying to "connect the dots" on an author's intent, the validity of an interpretation is entirely subjective. 

I agree there is no limit. But you need to set a limit for yourself in order to make sense.

Say you see a ladder leading to an apeture on the ceiling. Most people would assume the room has a attice. A person with very loose limits might say ita a ladder to the moher ship.

A person with no limits might say that the ladder is in fact a squirl with no reason for sayin WHY its a squirrel.

God will never tell us the secrets of the universe. So in order to make progress we do it ourselfs and we modrate ourselfs. Otherwise you get religion.



Damn im taking this WAAAY to seriousy....lets get back to friendly speculation shall we? 

[DJBare]

EpyonX3 wrote...

Because the "wound" was there before Shepard even got to the Citadel. And before he even shot Anderson.

There is no abdomen wound when Shepard starts walking the first corridor, anyone with flycam can see this, there is no abdomen wound when Shepard starts talking to Anderson and TIM, the wound only shows after Shepard shoots Anderson.

I also checked Shepard's approach to the beam, Marauder Shields is the only one that takes two shots at Shepard, the first hits the right shoulder(oddly Shepard continues to use that arm to wield a weapon) the second shot just misses the right shoulder, so the question is, if he got that abdomen wound before getting to the citadel, where did it come from?

Modifié par DJBare, 06 juin 2012 - 06:23 .

[EpyonX3]

HellishFiend wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...


There's no wound there that we can see. there isn't even a hole in his armor for blood to be spilling out.



His arms are covered in blood before he holds his wound for the last time.


There isn't a clear wound here either and his armor isn't shining with blood like his arms are. The blood is coming from his arms.

To be clear, what point are you trying to make, exactly? Because you seem to be pointing out oddities that in my eyes, just contribute to the concept that the scene is not real. Could you address the fact that Anderson has no wound or blood whatsoever? Why does he die and Shepard doesnt? Why isnt there any blood from TIM's suicide? 

To my knowledge, this is the first time we see anyone bleeding out in Mass Effect. There are no blood pools and the closest we've seen blood on a character was jacob. So the player normally wouldn't pick up on it since they don't expect it to be there.

But to portrey Shepard's condition, his model needed to show the blood as much as possible.

And my point is that if bioware staged everything down to the second for IT, then they contradict themselves if part of IT is that Shepard's "wound" comes after shooting anderson.

Hmm, I am going to have to disagree with you again (are you still keeping track? ). I dont think that qualifies as a contradiction. 

And back to the suicide thing, TIM's optional suicide bears a lot of similarities to Saren's optional sucide. The key difference being that there is no blood spatter whatsoever for TIM. The only blood we ever see during the Citadel sequence is Shepard's, and I am convinced that means something. 

I only keep track of when we agree. it's easier that way

There is an indication of some blood being shot out of his face. it's just not very graphic.

[IronSabbath88]

MaximizedAction wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

paxxton wrote...

I'm still not convinced by that "Anderson looking in the camera" thing. It might be just a coincidence when he was moving his eyes and their line of sight crossed the camera.

Nothing is a coincidence in Citadel: The Return. Bioware explicitly stated that it is "choreographed down to the second". Theyve also specifically mentioned eye movement and camera perspective as things they use as storytelling devices. 

That last sentence reminds me:

Remember the face import issue? My Shep imported correctly, or, as far as correctly goes:
The 'most correct" eyes that I could find were bigger than my ME1/ME2 Shep's eyes. in some threads, posters also complained about the eyes being just a little off.

I think BW modeled the eyes bigger for a reason.
WHERE someone is looking at, and HOW certain eyes look.
For example:
- Anderson's eyes in the transporter and his 4th wall break on the Citadel.
- Shepard's eyes depending on your end choice.

And again, there's a write up in the official Artbook (I think it's the artbook anyway) about how "It's in the eyes". BioWare even TELLS you they use the eyes to convey a message. Same way they use the camera. Funny that both things were used to tell you something in the final sequences of the game.

[Corik]

DJBare wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

Because the "wound" was there before Shepard even got to the Citadel. And before he even shot Anderson.

There is no abdomen wound when Shepard starts walking the first corridor, anyone with flycam can see this, there is no abdomen wound when Shepard starts talking to Anderson and TIM, the wound only shows after Shepard shoots Anderson.

I also checked Shepard's approach to the beam, Marauder Shields is the only one that takes two shots at Shepard, the first hits the right shoulder(oddly Shepard continues to use that arm to wield a weapon) the second shot just misses the right shoulder, so the question is, if he got that abdomen wound before getting to the citadel, where did it come from?

Not only that, the wound magically disappears when talking to RieperBieber.

[HellishFiend]

llbountyhunter wrote...

Damn im taking this WAAAY to seriousy....lets get back to friendly speculation shall we? 

Agreed.  If it were up to me, we'd never post anything but friendly speculations. I just cant help but bite sometimes because it bothers me a bit when people go off topic or try to suggest that something that is actually ON-topic doesnt belong in the thread. Anything that relates to the subject of Indoctrination in the ME storyline is fair game here. 

[HellishFiend]

EpyonX3 wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

Hmm, I am going to have to disagree with you again (are you still keeping track? ). I dont think that qualifies as a contradiction. 

And back to the suicide thing, TIM's optional suicide bears a lot of similarities to Saren's optional sucide. The key difference being that there is no blood spatter whatsoever for TIM. The only blood we ever see during the Citadel sequence is Shepard's, and I am convinced that means something. 

I only keep track of when we agree. it's easier that way

There is an indication of some blood being shot out of his face. it's just not very graphic.

I'm quite sure there isnt... Can you prove that there is?

[EpyonX3]

HellishFiend wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...


Then notice that Shepard's left side above the waist is damaged much more than his right side, even though he was shot my Shields, there's no wound there either.

Again, you're making a point that favors IT in my book. Shepard cannot be wounded by something like Marauder Shields in his own mind. He can only be harmed by attacks on his mental and emotional faculties, like in the Anderson/TIM scene. 

The reason i don't see anything special with this is because this happens all the time in the game. When you're shields are down and you get shot, you'll see similar graphics of blood coming from where Shepard is shot. And yet Shepard recovers if you duck behind something and can continue with the mission even with the one red bar of health.

So not seeing blood and wounds after Shields shoots Shepard doesn't surprise me.

[Corik]

EpyonX3 wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...


Then notice that Shepard's left side above the waist is damaged much more than his right side, even though he was shot my Shields, there's no wound there either.

Again, you're making a point that favors IT in my book. Shepard cannot be wounded by something like Marauder Shields in his own mind. He can only be harmed by attacks on his mental and emotional faculties, like in the Anderson/TIM scene. 

The reason i don't see anything special with this is because this happens all the time in the game. When you're shields are down and you get shot, you'll see similar graphics of blood coming from where Shepard is shot. And yet Shepard recovers if you duck behind something and can continue with the mission even with the one red bar of health.

So not seeing blood and wounds after Shields shoots Shepard doesn't surprise me.

Obviously you can't tell the difference between gameplay and symbolism. I'm sad for you.

[balance5050]

Corik wrote...

DJBare wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

Because the "wound" was there before Shepard even got to the Citadel. And before he even shot Anderson.

There is no abdomen wound when Shepard starts walking the first corridor, anyone with flycam can see this, there is no abdomen wound when Shepard starts talking to Anderson and TIM, the wound only shows after Shepard shoots Anderson.

I also checked Shepard's approach to the beam, Marauder Shields is the only one that takes two shots at Shepard, the first hits the right shoulder(oddly Shepard continues to use that arm to wield a weapon) the second shot just misses the right shoulder, so the question is, if he got that abdomen wound before getting to the citadel, where did it come from?

Not only that, the wound magically disappears when talking to RieperBieber.

And how often does someone "wake up" after passing out from blood loss... It's not like he had medical attention or anything.

[HellishFiend]

EpyonX3 wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...


Then notice that Shepard's left side above the waist is damaged much more than his right side, even though he was shot my Shields, there's no wound there either.

Again, you're making a point that favors IT in my book. Shepard cannot be wounded by something like Marauder Shields in his own mind. He can only be harmed by attacks on his mental and emotional faculties, like in the Anderson/TIM scene. 

The reason i don't see anything special with this is because this happens all the time in the game. When you're shields are down and you get shot, you'll see similar graphics of blood coming from where Shepard is shot. And yet Shepard recovers if you duck behind something and can continue with the mission even with the one red bar of health.

So not seeing blood and wounds after Shields shoots Shepard doesn't surprise me.

Ok, so to summarize, what element exactly are you suggesting favors face-value instead of IT? Because in my opinion, just about everything we've discussed on this subject today favors IT instead of face-value. 

[DJBare]

EpyonX3 wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...


Then notice that Shepard's left side above the waist is damaged much more than his right side, even though he was shot my Shields, there's no wound there either.

Again, you're making a point that favors IT in my book. Shepard cannot be wounded by something like Marauder Shields in his own mind. He can only be harmed by attacks on his mental and emotional faculties, like in the Anderson/TIM scene. 

The reason i don't see anything special with this is because this happens all the time in the game. When you're shields are down and you get shot, you'll see similar graphics of blood coming from where Shepard is shot. And yet Shepard recovers if you duck behind something and can continue with the mission even with the one red bar of health.

So not seeing blood and wounds after Shields shoots Shepard doesn't surprise me.

I'll agree with you on this, it does happen, but it does not explain
where the wound came from if it happened before getting to the citadel.

Modifié par DJBare, 06 juin 2012 - 06:32 .

[paxxton]

Corik wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...


Then notice that Shepard's left side above the waist is damaged much more than his right side, even though he was shot my Shields, there's no wound there either.

Again, you're making a point that favors IT in my book. Shepard cannot be wounded by something like Marauder Shields in his own mind. He can only be harmed by attacks on his mental and emotional faculties, like in the Anderson/TIM scene. 

The reason i don't see anything special with this is because this happens all the time in the game. When you're shields are down and you get shot, you'll see similar graphics of blood coming from where Shepard is shot. And yet Shepard recovers if you duck behind something and can continue with the mission even with the one red bar of health.

So not seeing blood and wounds after Shields shoots Shepard doesn't surprise me.

Obviously you can't tell the difference between gameplay and symbolism. I'm sad for you.

LOL. There's plenty of blood flying towards the camera when Shepard is shot by Marauder Shields. Don't tell me you can't see it.

Modifié par paxxton, 06 juin 2012 - 06:34 .

[Riot86]

EpyonX3 wrote...

So he's holding his stomach slightly higher than when he was standing up. How does this make the previous injury go away and the new one appear?

Didn't you try to disprove one of the possible evidence pro-IT, namely the fact that Anderson's wound somehow ends up on Shepard after his death, by posting a picture of Shepard holding his stomach before Anderson died?

I was just pointing out, that your pic doesn't disproves it at all, because "Anderson's wound" is not anywhere near that spot Shepard is holding his stomach in the picture you linked. It is clearly more to the left and also a bit higher. Since they took the time to show this wound in a close-up, I guess we can assume that even this minor difference (though I personally don't think it is that minor) is of some importance. And keep in mind, that they show it up close just two seconds after Anderson died as a result of that exact same wound.


Orange: Before Anderson's Death
Blue: After Anderson's Death

Modifié par Riot86, 06 juin 2012 - 06:34 .

[Corik]

paxxton wrote...

Corik wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...


Then notice that Shepard's left side above the waist is damaged much more than his right side, even though he was shot my Shields, there's no wound there either.

Again, you're making a point that favors IT in my book. Shepard cannot be wounded by something like Marauder Shields in his own mind. He can only be harmed by attacks on his mental and emotional faculties, like in the Anderson/TIM scene. 

The reason i don't see anything special with this is because this happens all the time in the game. When you're shields are down and you get shot, you'll see similar graphics of blood coming from where Shepard is shot. And yet Shepard recovers if you duck behind something and can continue with the mission even with the one red bar of health.

So not seeing blood and wounds after Shields shoots Shepard doesn't surprise me.

Obviously you can't tell the difference between gameplay and symbolism. I'm sad for you.

LOL. There's plenty of blood flying towards the camera when Shepard is shot by Marauder Shields.

Precisely. I'm almost sure that Marauder Shields was designed to shoot you in the shoulder that way so anybody could say "Hey, I was shot in the shoulder but I'm bleeding and the camera focus on my abdomen... what's going on here?"

That is symbolism.

Modifié par Corik, 06 juin 2012 - 06:34 .

[paxxton]

Corik wrote...

paxxton wrote...

Corik wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...


Then notice that Shepard's left side above the waist is damaged much more than his right side, even though he was shot my Shields, there's no wound there either.

Again, you're making a point that favors IT in my book. Shepard cannot be wounded by something like Marauder Shields in his own mind. He can only be harmed by attacks on his mental and emotional faculties, like in the Anderson/TIM scene. 

The reason i don't see anything special with this is because this happens all the time in the game. When you're shields are down and you get shot, you'll see similar graphics of blood coming from where Shepard is shot. And yet Shepard recovers if you duck behind something and can continue with the mission even with the one red bar of health.

So not seeing blood and wounds after Shields shoots Shepard doesn't surprise me.

Obviously you can't tell the difference between gameplay and symbolism. I'm sad for you.

LOL. There's plenty of blood flying towards the camera when Shepard is shot by Marauder Shields.

Precisely. I'm almost sure that Marauder Shields was designed to shoot you in the shoulder that way so anybody could say "Hey, I was shot in the shoulder but I'm bleeding and the camera focus on my abdomen... what's going on here?"

That is symbolism.

I think it's more about a contradiction than symbolism.

Modifié par paxxton, 06 juin 2012 - 06:36 .

[HellishFiend]

paxxton wrote...

LOL. There's plenty of blood flying towards the camera when Shepard is shot by Marauder Shields.

Yes, but the point is that there is no persisting wound. It is conceivable that the sequence of the right shoulder being the target of MS's initial attack, followed by Shepard using his right shoulder to aim his gun and take him down is actually a clue in and of itself. 

If his shoulder is so violently savaged the way that the animation and the "blood flying towards the camera" suggests, how does he then instantly cowboy a bullet straight into MS's face using that arm? And no persistent wound afterwards? Doesnt bode well for face-value. 

Modifié par HellishFiend, 06 juin 2012 - 06:37 .

[Corik]

paxxton wrote...

Corik wrote...

paxxton wrote...

Corik wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...


Then notice that Shepard's left side above the waist is damaged much more than his right side, even though he was shot my Shields, there's no wound there either.

Again, you're making a point that favors IT in my book. Shepard cannot be wounded by something like Marauder Shields in his own mind. He can only be harmed by attacks on his mental and emotional faculties, like in the Anderson/TIM scene. 

The reason i don't see anything special with this is because this happens all the time in the game. When you're shields are down and you get shot, you'll see similar graphics of blood coming from where Shepard is shot. And yet Shepard recovers if you duck behind something and can continue with the mission even with the one red bar of health.

So not seeing blood and wounds after Shields shoots Shepard doesn't surprise me.

Obviously you can't tell the difference between gameplay and symbolism. I'm sad for you.

LOL. There's plenty of blood flying towards the camera when Shepard is shot by Marauder Shields.

Precisely. I'm almost sure that Marauder Shields was designed to shoot you in the shoulder that way so anybody could say "Hey, I was shot in the shoulder but I'm bleeding and the camera focus on my abdomen... what's going on here?"

That is symbolism.

I think it's more of a contradiction than symbolism.

The contradiction is made so you can clearly see the symbolism.

[balance5050]

paxxton wrote...

Corik wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...


Then notice that Shepard's left side above the waist is damaged much more than his right side, even though he was shot my Shields, there's no wound there either.

Again, you're making a point that favors IT in my book. Shepard cannot be wounded by something like Marauder Shields in his own mind. He can only be harmed by attacks on his mental and emotional faculties, like in the Anderson/TIM scene. 

The reason i don't see anything special with this is because this happens all the time in the game. When you're shields are down and you get shot, you'll see similar graphics of blood coming from where Shepard is shot. And yet Shepard recovers if you duck behind something and can continue with the mission even with the one red bar of health.

So not seeing blood and wounds after Shields shoots Shepard doesn't surprise me.

Obviously you can't tell the difference between gameplay and symbolism. I'm sad for you.

LOL. There's plenty of blood flying towards the camera when Shepard is shot by Marauder Shields. Don't tell me you can't see it.

And he hit Shepards shoulder, there was alot of blood that flew at the screen and Shepard does indeed hold his shoulder after that....

[IronSabbath88]

I'm still a firm believer that Anderson is still a part of Shepard's mind.

When Anderson says "God, it feels like years since I just sat down" and Shepard replies with "I think you've earned a rest".. it doesn't really make sense for Anderson because Anderson HAS had a chance to sit down.. he was retired in ME1 and spent most of his time on the Citadel and in ME2, again, same thing. So, Anderson has had a rest. Shepard on the other hand, has never had a rest.

Plus the "stay with me" line is telling. When "Anderson" finally parts, that's when the next sequence starts and what do we see? The wound.

It's all very telling to me.

[Arian Dynas]

Turbo_J wrote...

Yep, not bad. And your english is near perfect so no worries there.

The only thing I'll comment on is that there is tons more that happens between 1 and 2 in your list; including but not limited to.

Radio transmissions: First, short wave is not jammed? ok.
Radio transmissions are familar - first one is similar to Garrus talking about casualty percentages on the Citadel
-Second one about a soldier who 'lost his leg below the knee' like the one in Huerta Memorial

Conversations messed up
Repeat of 'I was born in London'.
Wrex's 'baby girl named Mordin' brain fade.

Datapad in the hospital screaming 'indoctrination is here!'

QEC party line

Weapons bench

Thanix 'missiles' - face palm

Water running up hill

Let's look at a few alternative explanations before turning to hallucination

Could maybe chalk that up to narrative convineience, maybe.

Could be deja vu

We've heard nothing to contradict it, and just because he was born in London, doesn't mean he was raised there.

Not sure what you mean about this one. Seemed perfectly "Wrex" to me.

Could just be forshadowing for later.

That I'll agree with.

Gameplay and story segregation, that and who's to say it wasn't just left abandoned by someone?

I've given the explanation before that these could potentially be missles designed to hit extremely hard and fast, simaltaneously liquidizing and superheating a metallic subtstance designed to splatter all over the target at extreme speeds.

Wait what? Where did THAT happen? 

[paxxton]

HellishFiend wrote...

paxxton wrote...

LOL. There's plenty of blood flying towards the camera when Shepard is shot by Marauder Shields.

Yes, but the point is that there is no persisting would. It is conceivable that the sequence of the right shoulder being the target of MS's initial attack, followed by Shepard using his right shoulder to aim his gun and take him down is actually a clue in and of itself. 

If his shoulder is so violently savaged the way that the animation and the "blood flying towards the camera" suggests, how does he then instantly cowboy a bullet straight into MS's face? And no persistent wound afterwards? Doesnt bode well for face-value. 

Though after arriveing on the Ciradel he grabs his shoulder.

Modifié par paxxton, 06 juin 2012 - 06:39 .

[HellishFiend]

IronSabbath88 wrote...

I'm still a firm believer that Anderson is still a part of Shepard's mind.

When Anderson says "God, it feels like years since I just sat down" and Shepard replies with "I think you've earned a rest".. it doesn't really make sense for Anderson because Anderson HAS had a chance to sit down.. he was retired in ME1 and spent most of his time on the Citadel and in ME2, again, same thing. So, Anderson has had a rest. Shepard on the other hand, has never had a rest.

Plus the "stay with me" line is telling. When "Anderson" finally parts, that's when the next sequence starts and what do we see? The wound.

It's all very telling to me.

Agreed. The symbolism seems quite clear to me once you know what to look for.