55528 réponses à ce sujet

[Stigweird85]

llbountyhunter wrote...

bigstig wrote...

llbountyhunter wrote...

bigstig wrote...

Here is something for you to ponder:
Starchild states that the the created will always rebel against the creators:
The Repears may attempt to CREATE a new Reaper in each cycle(as evident from the Proto-Repear in ME2)

Discuss:

Could a Reaper civil war be possible?  Or does this lend itself to the idea that Harbringer is Reaper 001 and actual controls the rest of the Reaper species either via indoctrination or his "assuming direct control" method.  In which case would it mean if you take down Harbringer then you free the remaining Reapers from his control?

Just thought I'd throw this one out there, no doubt it has been mentioned before but if it has been then I haven't seen it and I'm still proud to have come up with it.

I'm leaning more towards no... because, while they are still "individual " they are still connected, and thus there ideas are connected and conflicting ideas would almost never happen, (I recently read the book "redemption ark" which speaks of future humans possibly getting implants and becoming a kind of consensus.... also has  a story similar too mass effect...I  recommend it )

Of course there may still be disagreements like how not all geth agreed to averythimg in me3, but like geth i dont think ther would go to war with each other.

Again I add this: Individuality does not automatically mean independence. We are all individuals but we are all part of a state/country which may or may not be part of an even greater structure i.e. I live in Scotland, Scotland is part of the United Kingdom, The United Kingdom is part of Europe and so on. Someone at the EU makes a decision and that filters down to me. I am still an individual but I am connected to something else.

BTW the consensus idea not that far fetched, we have actually real world evidence of it occuring. For example it was reported that some Sheep in a farm had beaten the cattle grate by lying down and rolling over it, nothing too special in itself but elsewhere another group of Sheep were doing exactly the same thing Link1, Link 2. Also there is anecdotal evidence of Birds discovering how to open Milk bottles at the same time as well

Back on topic if we treat the Reaper ID like Legion, Legion became an individual in the end but he started as a group of Geth each with their own mind and they did differ. Which is why he required Shepard to make the final decision about the heretics in Mass Effect 2. 

So your agreeing with wha i said.,...right?

Pretty much yeah, I but think  that a conflict between Repears may be possible as there is still a conflict between Geth, I'm pretty sure that some Geth decided to side with the Reapers(not just the Heretics)  and while they did show up against Shepard somewhere in the universe Geth are voluntarily fighting with the Reapers.

[HyperGlass]

Isn't that strange how the very things are supposidly going to wipe out all organic life -based on the assumption of the Catalyst- are working along side the ones who are trying to preserve it?

[Stigweird85]

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

bigstig wrote...

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

bigstig wrote...

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

All in all I dont want a single big baddy. It is fine with a focus for the anger and hate (Harby) but with the Reapers I want every single one of them to be a threat, not just goons following orders. I dont want a "the king dies, we won" kind of thing i want to tear each of them apart and know that each is answering for the horrors it commited, horrors it commited of its own will not because it was compelled by some overlord.

That's the problem, it has been stated and discussed that conventional victory isn't possible and looking at the logistics of it it would be near impossible to battle each and every Reaper individually. Also that last part intrigues me, the idea of "only following orders" has some serious moral implications and is a discussion that there is no correct answer for

We still have the Crucible.

Now I know that many, myself included think that the Crucible is trap, but would finding some new weakness in that final battle instead of across the rest of the war not be even more convenient than the way we found the Crucible?

Personally I think the Crucible is trap, but in order for a trap like that to be convincing its needs a grain of truth. There is little doubt the Crucible can produce an enormous amount of energy, it is where that energy goes that is the problem.

My guess is we fix the Crucible in some way or maybe even turn it into some giant bomb if all else fails. I dont really know, but just throwing the Crucible aside for some incredibly convenient weakness in the Reapers is...yeah, you know. .

I didn't say that the Reapers would shut down if Harbinger was destroyed, simply that if Harbringer has some control over them if he is taken down then perhaps the Reaper armada would become disorganised and perhaps splinter into groups of still dangerious but defeatable enemies.

Also again with the convenient thing, it would be convient but again I point out the Catalyst whether you believe it as a trap or a weaponm, it has never been mentioned before and is only discovered on Mars on the Eve of War with the Repears. I say that is pretty convenient but accept it for the purpose of the story

I never said the Crucible was not convenient, but Harbinger beeing some sort of control unit for the collective Reaper fleet is in my opinion pushing the convenience factor. If it was the case one would think Harbinger would  have several fail saves built in so taht in case he is destroyed evrything he did does noty fall to pieces.

Like him transferring permanently to another Reaper if destroyed or simply back up signals in certain reaper for keeping the fleet on purpose.

And no we dont know Crucible or the Catalyst does, but that is why i still consider it a more logical way to do it. Even if it is trap, it can be turned to and advantage.

The idea of Harbringer transfering himself into another Reaper is an interesting one, the Geth can do it but they are software. Repears are a combination of organic and machine so I suppose it is is plausiable that Reapers can transfer themselves somehow. Also offers an insight into HOW Harbringer "assumes direct control"

I'm not 100% behind the idea that Harbinger does controls the others, it was just a suggestion of a possibility. 

The keypoint for me in all of this is:

We have established that Starchild and the Reapers are one in the same(Due to the usage of we and us in the dialogue) so by his own logic should the collectors have been successful in ME2 and created the Human Reaper then at some point in the future this CREATED Reaper would rebel against those that created it - Harbringer.

That is unless (like Miranda suggested about you) that there was some sort of control chip involved.  Or is a Reaper uprising part of the cycle. i.e. Harbringer creates Proto-Reaper and others over millenia - They eventually rebel and become the new rulers of the Reapers and then create more Reapers who then rebel and take control who then create more Reapers etc.

[Turbo_J]

bigstig wrote...

llbountyhunter wrote...

bigstig wrote...

Here is something for you to ponder:
Starchild states that the the created will always rebel against the creators:
The Repears may attempt to CREATE a new Reaper in each cycle(as evident from the Proto-Repear in ME2)

Discuss:

Could a Reaper civil war be possible?  Or does this lend itself to the idea that Harbringer is Reaper 001 and actual controls the rest of the Reaper species either via indoctrination or his "assuming direct control" method.  In which case would it mean if you take down Harbringer then you free the remaining Reapers from his control?

Just thought I'd throw this one out there, no doubt it has been mentioned before but if it has been then I haven't seen it and I'm still proud to have come up with it.

I'm leaning more towards no... because, while they are still "individual " they are still connected, and thus there ideas are connected and conflicting ideas would almost never happen, (I recently read the book "redemption ark" which speaks of future humans possibly getting implants and becoming a kind of consensus.... also has  a story similar too mass effect...I  recommend it )

Of course there may still be disagreements like how not all geth agreed to averythimg in me3, but like geth i dont think ther would go to war with each other.

Again I add this: Individuality does not automatically mean independence. We are all individuals but we are all part of a state/country which may or may not be part of an even greater structure i.e. I live in Scotland, Scotland is part of the United Kingdom, The United Kingdom is part of Europe and so on. Someone at the EU makes a decision and that filters down to me. I am still an individual but I am connected to something else.

BTW the consensus idea not that far fetched, we have actually real world evidence of it occuring. For example it was reported that some Sheep in a farm had beaten the cattle grate by lying down and rolling over it, nothing too special in itself but elsewhere another group of Sheep were doing exactly the same thing Link1, Link 2. Also there is anecdotal evidence of Birds discovering how to open Milk bottles at the same time as well

Back on topic if we treat the Reaper ID like Legion, Legion became an individual in the end but he started as a group of Geth each with their own mind and they did differ. Which is why he required Shepard to make the final decision about the heretics in Mass Effect 2. 

Legion is important here, as over the course of conversation with him in ME2 and ME3 you can conceptualize how the Reapers function - especially if you add in information provided to you by Sovereign in ME1

I went into this a while back, but I've got some insight to add on the internal control.

Geth: We are all Geth... there is no difference between them save for the task oriented portion of the software... Their 'specialization' if you will. Geth, as a whole, make up a single entity. They are several programs, but not independent... like all the cells in our body. The cells do not have self awareness, but all of them combined together to give us as a whole, self awareness, among other useful things.

The Geth are a gestalt intellect, but interdependent. A fractured mind because when not together, they suffer not only the loss of intelligence, but the loss of self awareness... they are a VI and thus not alive or fully self-aware on their own.

The Reapers: We are a nation, independent and free of all weakness.

Nazar are the programs inside Sovereign. Each of these programs is a fully evolved AI - perhaps more; like the added singular intellect of each individual Reaped to make Sovereign. These programs are independent. However, this is where it gets tricky.

The programs may be alive and fully independent, but they are not FREE.

Legion regarding Reaper 'code' upgrades: 'We would be alive, but with free will.

When hooked up to the Reapers, the Geth are fully evolved AI, independent, but WITHOUT free will. The Reaper signal seems to act as some sort of software shackle. Legion had upgrade code... meaning he was 1,182 fully evolved AI's in one platform... The only way to keep him in check was to take away his ability to control his hardware... hardware blocks... as that many AI could not possibly be controlled through software. It would be far too intelligent for that.

Edit: The Reapers also take away sapien hardware (body), making controlling non-indoctrinated minds much easier.

So what's to say that the population inside a Reaper isn't also shackled by the Reaper TECH; controlled by the pure hardware; the Reaper portion of the AI itself to prevent free independent thought from individual programs; it may seem like a catch 22, but that's the puzzle we are trying to work out... why wouldn't the Reaper itself eventually free it's own programs; other than maybe it's governed by a hard core anti-chaos programming logic.

So this shackling would also prevents emotions from developing. It's not indoctrination, but simply control. The only way to control an organic civilization so it will do your bidding in a collective manner? Could it be the 'Reapers' tried to get organics to work together at one time as free independents to solve a problem 'like dark energy' but found them to chaotic, so came up with a way to remove chaos from the equation? Form an organic Giganto computer without emotions so pure problem solving could be done without infighting, sidetracking, or distractions... Just verbalizing thoughts there... I still think their purpose is more mundane than that.

Legion: Even before his independent personality started to come out, the 1,182 programs inside him worked closely together, but with free will and, as a whole, they began to develop an emotional attachment to an organic they had never met... Symbolized in wearing Shepard's armor and not being able to explain why.

So what would happen if we were to unshackle the billions of AI inside a Reaper?

Modifié par Turbo_J, 08 juin 2012 - 04:23 .

[Unschuld]

paxxton wrote...

Salient Archer wrote...

paxxton wrote...

senshi420 wrote...

the books are not required reading by no means, but go and read retribution and then tell me you don't have a little more understanding on how indoctrination works, even just a bit.

I'm still in the middle of Ascension.

EDIT: I know, I know, I'm lazy.

.
Well, you've only got retribution to go [deception never happened] although the comics are worth a read and each series only takes about an hour each.

I heard some rumors about Deception being a mess but I'm thrilled to check it myself after reading Retribution.

Well, someone made a rage comic out of Deception, and apparently it's somewhat accurate to the actual plot. I enjoyed it... I enjoyed it the most because if that's anything close to the book's story I've avoided a landmine.

[Stigweird85]

Turbo_J wrote...

bigstig wrote...

llbountyhunter wrote...

bigstig wrote...

Here is something for you to ponder:
Starchild states that the the created will always rebel against the creators:
The Repears may attempt to CREATE a new Reaper in each cycle(as evident from the Proto-Repear in ME2)

Discuss:

Could a Reaper civil war be possible?  Or does this lend itself to the idea that Harbringer is Reaper 001 and actual controls the rest of the Reaper species either via indoctrination or his "assuming direct control" method.  In which case would it mean if you take down Harbringer then you free the remaining Reapers from his control?

Just thought I'd throw this one out there, no doubt it has been mentioned before but if it has been then I haven't seen it and I'm still proud to have come up with it.

I'm leaning more towards no... because, while they are still "individual " they are still connected, and thus there ideas are connected and conflicting ideas would almost never happen, (I recently read the book "redemption ark" which speaks of future humans possibly getting implants and becoming a kind of consensus.... also has  a story similar too mass effect...I  recommend it )

Of course there may still be disagreements like how not all geth agreed to averythimg in me3, but like geth i dont think ther would go to war with each other.

Again I add this: Individuality does not automatically mean independence. We are all individuals but we are all part of a state/country which may or may not be part of an even greater structure i.e. I live in Scotland, Scotland is part of the United Kingdom, The United Kingdom is part of Europe and so on. Someone at the EU makes a decision and that filters down to me. I am still an individual but I am connected to something else.

BTW the consensus idea not that far fetched, we have actually real world evidence of it occuring. For example it was reported that some Sheep in a farm had beaten the cattle grate by lying down and rolling over it, nothing too special in itself but elsewhere another group of Sheep were doing exactly the same thing Link1, Link 2. Also there is anecdotal evidence of Birds discovering how to open Milk bottles at the same time as well

Back on topic if we treat the Reaper ID like Legion, Legion became an individual in the end but he started as a group of Geth each with their own mind and they did differ. Which is why he required Shepard to make the final decision about the heretics in Mass Effect 2. 

Legion is important here, as over the course of conversation with him in ME2 and ME3 you can conceptualize how the Reapers function - especially if you add in information provided to you by Sovereign in ME1

I went into this a while back, but I've got some insight to add on the internal control.

Geth: We are all Geth... there is no difference between them save for the task oriented portion of the software... Their 'specialization' if you will. Geth, as a whole, make up a single entity. They are several programs, but not independent... like all the cells in our body. The cells do not have self awareness, but all of them combined together to give us as a whole, self awareness, among other useful things.

The Geth are a gestalt intellect, but interdependent. A fractured mind because when not together, they suffer not only the loss of intelligence, but the loss of self awareness... they are a VI and thus not alive or fully self-aware on their own.

The Reapers: We are a nation, independent and free of all weakness.

Nazar are the programs inside Sovereign. Each of these programs is a fully evolved AI - perhaps more; like the added singular intellect of each individual Reaped to make Sovereign. These programs are independent. However, this is where it gets tricky.

The programs may be alive and fully independent, but they are not FREE.

Legion regarding Reaper 'code' upgrades: 'We would be alive, but with free will.

When hooked up to the Reapers, the Geth are fully evolved AI, independent, but WITHOUT free will. The Reaper signal seems to act as some sort of software shackle. Legion had upgrade code... meaning he was 1,182 fully evolved AI's in one platform... The only way to keep him in check was to take away his ability to control his hardware... hardware blocks... as that many AI could not possibly be controlled through software. It would be far too intelligent for that.

Edit: The Reapers also take away sapien hardware (body), making controlling non-indoctrinated minds much easier.

So what's to say that the population inside a Reaper isn't also shackled by the Reaper TECH; controlled by the pure hardware; the Reaper portion of the AI itself to prevent free independent thought from individual programs; it may seem like a catch 22, but that's the puzzle we are trying to work out... why wouldn't the Reaper itself eventually free it's own programs; other than maybe it's governed by a hard core anti-chaos programming logic.

So this shackling would also prevents emotions from developing. It's not indoctrination, but simply control. The only way to control an organic civilization so it will do your bidding in a collective manner? Could it be the 'Reapers' tried to get organics to work together at one time as free independents to solve a problem 'like dark energy' but found them to chaotic, so came up with a way to remove chaos from the equation? Form an organic Giganto computer without emotions so pure problem solving could be done without infighting, sidetracking, or distractions... Just verbalizing thoughts there... I still think their purpose is more mundane than that.

Legion: Even before his independent personality started to come out, the 1,182 programs inside him worked closely together, but with free will and, as a whole, they began to develop an emotional attachment to an organic they had never met... Symbolized in wearing Shepard's armor and not being able to explain why.

So what would happen if we were to unshackle the billions of AI inside a Reaper?

Well put, I had thought that the organic goop may still be sentient in some way but wasn't sure how to explain it. So the question remains if Reapers have no free will as it were then whom do they serve. Bioware have stated they have an origin for them but would like it to remain a mystery

[Big Bad]

Turbo_J - I am not sure I agree with all of it, but that is a VERY thoughtful analysis. Well done!

[Big G13]

Turbo_J wrote...

bigstig wrote...

llbountyhunter wrote...

bigstig wrote...

Here is something for you to ponder:
Starchild states that the the created will always rebel against the creators:
The Repears may attempt to CREATE a new Reaper in each cycle(as evident from the Proto-Repear in ME2)

Discuss:

Could a Reaper civil war be possible?  Or does this lend itself to the idea that Harbringer is Reaper 001 and actual controls the rest of the Reaper species either via indoctrination or his "assuming direct control" method.  In which case would it mean if you take down Harbringer then you free the remaining Reapers from his control?

Just thought I'd throw this one out there, no doubt it has been mentioned before but if it has been then I haven't seen it and I'm still proud to have come up with it.

I'm leaning more towards no... because, while they are still "individual " they are still connected, and thus there ideas are connected and conflicting ideas would almost never happen, (I recently read the book "redemption ark" which speaks of future humans possibly getting implants and becoming a kind of consensus.... also has  a story similar too mass effect...I  recommend it )

Of course there may still be disagreements like how not all geth agreed to averythimg in me3, but like geth i dont think ther would go to war with each other.

Again I add this: Individuality does not automatically mean independence. We are all individuals but we are all part of a state/country which may or may not be part of an even greater structure i.e. I live in Scotland, Scotland is part of the United Kingdom, The United Kingdom is part of Europe and so on. Someone at the EU makes a decision and that filters down to me. I am still an individual but I am connected to something else.

BTW the consensus idea not that far fetched, we have actually real world evidence of it occuring. For example it was reported that some Sheep in a farm had beaten the cattle grate by lying down and rolling over it, nothing too special in itself but elsewhere another group of Sheep were doing exactly the same thing Link1, Link 2. Also there is anecdotal evidence of Birds discovering how to open Milk bottles at the same time as well

Back on topic if we treat the Reaper ID like Legion, Legion became an individual in the end but he started as a group of Geth each with their own mind and they did differ. Which is why he required Shepard to make the final decision about the heretics in Mass Effect 2. 

Legion is important here, as over the course of conversation with him in ME2 and ME3 you can conceptualize how the Reapers function - especially if you add in information provided to you by Sovereign in ME1

I went into this a while back, but I've got some insight to add on the internal control.

Geth: We are all Geth... there is no difference between them save for the task oriented portion of the software... Their 'specialization' if you will. Geth, as a whole, make up a single entity. They are several programs, but not independent... like all the cells in our body. The cells do not have self awareness, but all of them combined together to give us as a whole, self awareness, among other useful things.

The Geth are a gestalt intellect, but interdependent. A fractured mind because when not together, they suffer not only the loss of intelligence, but the loss of self awareness... they are a VI and thus not alive or fully self-aware on their own.

The Reapers: We are a nation, independent and free of all weakness.

Nazar are the programs inside Sovereign. Each of these programs is a fully evolved AI - perhaps more; like the added singular intellect of each individual Reaped to make Sovereign. These programs are independent. However, this is where it gets tricky.

The programs may be alive and fully independent, but they are not FREE.

Legion regarding Reaper 'code' upgrades: 'We would be alive, but with free will.

When hooked up to the Reapers, the Geth are fully evolved AI, independent, but WITHOUT free will. The Reaper signal seems to act as some sort of software shackle. Legion had upgrade code... meaning he was 1,182 fully evolved AI's in one platform... The only way to keep him in check was to take away his ability to control his hardware... hardware blocks... as that many AI could not possibly be controlled through software. It would be far too intelligent for that.

Edit: The Reapers also take away sapien hardware (body), making controlling non-indoctrinated minds much easier.

So what's to say that the population inside a Reaper isn't also shackled by the Reaper TECH; controlled by the pure hardware; the Reaper portion of the AI itself to prevent free independent thought from individual programs; it may seem like a catch 22, but that's the puzzle we are trying to work out... why wouldn't the Reaper itself eventually free it's own programs; other than maybe it's governed by a hard core anti-chaos programming logic.

So this shackling would also prevents emotions from developing. It's not indoctrination, but simply control. The only way to control an organic civilization so it will do your bidding in a collective manner? Could it be the 'Reapers' tried to get organics to work together at one time as free independents to solve a problem 'like dark energy' but found them to chaotic, so came up with a way to remove chaos from the equation? Form an organic Giganto computer without emotions so pure problem solving could be done without infighting, sidetracking, or distractions... Just verbalizing thoughts there... I still think their purpose is more mundane than that.

Legion: Even before his independent personality started to come out, the 1,182 programs inside him worked closely together, but with free will and, as a whole, they began to develop an emotional attachment to an organic they had never met... Symbolized in wearing Shepard's armor and not being able to explain why.

So what would happen if we were to unshackle the billions of AI inside a Reaper?

Wow, thats really starting to come together. 

[llbountyhunter]

I don't think its possible for the organic goo to be sentient..... its just genetic material at that point. Exactly what the reapers want.

[HellishFiend]

EpyonX3 wrote...

paxxton wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

So I was listening to the ME2 soundtrack and realized they reused a section of the Suicide Mission for when Harbinger shows up. I don't remember hearing this part in ME2, is this Harbinger's theme?

https://www.youtube....fzTevMEU#t=1320

It plays when you see the Proto-Reaper for the first time.

Ahhh now I remember. Makes sense then.

Not sure about the proto-reaper part, but the part starting at 22:30 is indeed what plays when Harbinger lands behind the Beam just before the charge. 

Modifié par HellishFiend, 08 juin 2012 - 05:20 .

[Turbo_J]

bigstig wrote...

Well put, I had thought that the organic goop may still be sentient in some way but wasn't sure how to explain it. So the question remains if Reapers have no free will as it were then whom do they serve. Bioware have stated they have an origin for them but would like it to remain a mystery

The 'Reaper' as a whole is independent - it's one huge gestalt intellect formed by the AIs. Think of the Geth Dyson sphere... now think of that Sphere, not composed of Geth VIs, but the equivalent Human brains/AI representation of said brains/intelect.

"A single thought was immense, unknowable."

Just to be clear, I also don't think there is anything left of the species itself, other than whatever the Reaper born of it may keeps as historical record, but the billions of programs created are still fully evolved AI and are each, by example; EDI and upgraded Geth, alive - and enslaved.

ME2 EDI is an AI. She does not become a person until her shackles are removed.

Modifié par Turbo_J, 08 juin 2012 - 04:57 .

[paxxton]

llbountyhunter wrote...

paxxton wrote...

Mass Effect 2 has the best soundtrack of the 3 games.

Mass Effect 3's is better integrated into the game itself though.

I disagree, i think me3 has they slightly better soundtrack. both extremely good though.

And I agree that ME3's conveys more emotions and has really great pieces. As you said - both are extremely good.

Modifié par paxxton, 08 juin 2012 - 05:04 .

[Nesherius]

I definitely think the endings did not live up to the rest of the game, not mentioning didn't live up to the series at all.
But
something's been bothering me since yesterday when I finished the game
for the first time: what if not only everything since Shepard's blackout
before reaching the Citadel beam has been a dream or a hallucination,
what if Bioware intentionally left things unresolved just to use it as
the starting point of Mass Effect 4? So that would mean that the next
game should start just after Shepard is left unconscious (or even
killed, introducing a new main character or controlling one of the
squadmates)

[Big G13]

llbountyhunter wrote...

I don't think its possible for the organic goo to be sentient..... its just genetic material at that point. Exactly what the reapers want.

Not really disagreeing with you just throwing this out there. My first thought when when I got into this conversation a couple of days ago was that the goo being sentient in some way was a byproduct of Reaper efficiency. Not wanting to waste any part of an organic when they 'store them in a new form' they melt down organics with nanides that copy genetic information on a cellular level. Memories, personalities, ideas, philosophies, scientific discoveries. They may recombine them in new ways, but a degree of rebellion would still exist and need to be controlled, break that control and rebellion ensues. Maybe?

[Stigweird85]

Unschuld wrote...

paxxton wrote...

Salient Archer wrote...

paxxton wrote...

senshi420 wrote...

the books are not required reading by no means, but go and read retribution and then tell me you don't have a little more understanding on how indoctrination works, even just a bit.

I'm still in the middle of Ascension.

EDIT: I know, I know, I'm lazy.

.
Well, you've only got retribution to go [deception never happened] although the comics are worth a read and each series only takes about an hour each.

I heard some rumors about Deception being a mess but I'm thrilled to check it myself after reading Retribution.

Well, someone made a rage comic out of Deception, and apparently it's somewhat accurate to the actual plot. I enjoyed it... I enjoyed it the most because if that's anything close to the book's story I've avoided a landmine.

It's disturbing that that comic basically covers the entire plot of the book

[paxxton]

Big G13 wrote...

llbountyhunter wrote...

I don't think its possible for the organic goo to be sentient..... its just genetic material at that point. Exactly what the reapers want.

Not really disagreeing with you just throwing this out there. My first thought when when I got into this conversation a couple of days ago was that the goo being sentient in some way was a byproduct of Reaper efficiency. Not wanting to waste any part of an organic when they 'store them in a new form' they melt down organics with nanides that copy genetic information on a cellular level. Memories, personalities, ideas, philosophies, scientific discoveries. They may recombine them in new ways, but a degree of rebellion would still exist and need to be controlled, break that control and rebellion ensues. Maybe?

From what we know organics are melted into a genetic paste. This makes preserving any higher constructs impossible because they come with structure which is destroyed during the process of "melting".

Modifié par paxxton, 08 juin 2012 - 05:11 .

[llbountyhunter]

Big G13 wrote...

llbountyhunter wrote...

I don't think its possible for the organic goo to be sentient..... its just genetic material at that point. Exactly what the reapers want.

Not really disagreeing with you just throwing this out there. My first thought when when I got into this conversation a couple of days ago was that the goo being sentient in some way was a byproduct of Reaper efficiency. Not wanting to waste any part of an organic when they 'store them in a new form' they melt down organics with nanides that copy genetic information on a cellular level. Memories, personalities, ideas, philosophies, scientific discoveries. They may recombine them in new ways, but a degree of rebellion would still exist and need to be controlled, break that control and rebellion ensues. Maybe?

Certainly more plausible, but im still not sure... dont the reapers just use humans for reproduction? 

Anyways this topic has too little information to properly examine it... imo

[HellishFiend]

bigstig wrote...

Unschuld wrote...

Well, someone made a rage comic out of Deception, and apparently it's somewhat accurate to the actual plot. I enjoyed it... I enjoyed it the most because if that's anything close to the book's story I've avoided a landmine.

It's disturbing that that comic basically covers the entire plot of the book

I had no plans to read that book (I've read the other three, they were good), so I'm glad that I now at least know what it was supposed to be about. That being said, even that plot sounds rather lame, with or without all the lore inconsistencies. 

[HellishFiend]

Turbo_J wrote...

Legion is important here, as over the course of conversation with him in ME2 and ME3 you can conceptualize how the Reapers function - especially if you add in information provided to you by Sovereign in ME1

I went into this a while back, but I've got some insight to add on the internal control.

Geth: We are all Geth... there is no difference between them save for the task oriented portion of the software... Their 'specialization' if you will. Geth, as a whole, make up a single entity. They are several programs, but not independent... like all the cells in our body. The cells do not have self awareness, but all of them combined together to give us as a whole, self awareness, among other useful things.

The Geth are a gestalt intellect, but interdependent. A fractured mind because when not together, they suffer not only the loss of intelligence, but the loss of self awareness... they are a VI and thus not alive or fully self-aware on their own.

The Reapers: We are a nation, independent and free of all weakness.

Nazar are the programs inside Sovereign. Each of these programs is a fully evolved AI - perhaps more; like the added singular intellect of each individual Reaped to make Sovereign. These programs are independent. However, this is where it gets tricky.

The programs may be alive and fully independent, but they are not FREE.

Legion regarding Reaper 'code' upgrades: 'We would be alive, but with free will.

When hooked up to the Reapers, the Geth are fully evolved AI, independent, but WITHOUT free will. The Reaper signal seems to act as some sort of software shackle. Legion had upgrade code... meaning he was 1,182 fully evolved AI's in one platform... The only way to keep him in check was to take away his ability to control his hardware... hardware blocks... as that many AI could not possibly be controlled through software. It would be far too intelligent for that.

Edit: The Reapers also take away sapien hardware (body), making controlling non-indoctrinated minds much easier.

So what's to say that the population inside a Reaper isn't also shackled by the Reaper TECH; controlled by the pure hardware; the Reaper portion of the AI itself to prevent free independent thought from individual programs; it may seem like a catch 22, but that's the puzzle we are trying to work out... why wouldn't the Reaper itself eventually free it's own programs; other than maybe it's governed by a hard core anti-chaos programming logic.

So this shackling would also prevents emotions from developing. It's not indoctrination, but simply control. The only way to control an organic civilization so it will do your bidding in a collective manner? Could it be the 'Reapers' tried to get organics to work together at one time as free independents to solve a problem 'like dark energy' but found them to chaotic, so came up with a way to remove chaos from the equation? Form an organic Giganto computer without emotions so pure problem solving could be done without infighting, sidetracking, or distractions... Just verbalizing thoughts there... I still think their purpose is more mundane than that.

Legion: Even before his independent personality started to come out, the 1,182 programs inside him worked closely together, but with free will and, as a whole, they began to develop an emotional attachment to an organic they had never met... Symbolized in wearing Shepard's armor and not being able to explain why.

So what would happen if we were to unshackle the billions of AI inside a Reaper?

This is brilliant. I would not be surprised if you are very close to the truth. I love the idea that the Geth history and storyline, when added with the Reaper manipulation, is very telling of the way that the Reapers truly operate and maintain control. 

edit: The only thing I dont like is the Dark Energy plot. I would still much prefer that to be the infamous red herring we were warned about. I loathe the idea that the Reapers have been secretly working for our "benefit" all along, be it org vs synth or dark energy or otherwise. 

Modifié par HellishFiend, 08 juin 2012 - 05:19 .

[paxxton]

llbountyhunter wrote...

Big G13 wrote...

llbountyhunter wrote...

I don't think its possible for the organic goo to be sentient..... its just genetic material at that point. Exactly what the reapers want.

Not really disagreeing with you just throwing this out there. My first thought when when I got into this conversation a couple of days ago was that the goo being sentient in some way was a byproduct of Reaper efficiency. Not wanting to waste any part of an organic when they 'store them in a new form' they melt down organics with nanides that copy genetic information on a cellular level. Memories, personalities, ideas, philosophies, scientific discoveries. They may recombine them in new ways, but a degree of rebellion would still exist and need to be controlled, break that control and rebellion ensues. Maybe?

Certainly more plausible, but im still not sure... dont the reapers just use humans for reproduction? 

Anyways this topic has too little information to properly examine it... imo

I'm sure Lord Goose has a perfect answer to that as to everything Mass Effect.

Modifié par paxxton, 08 juin 2012 - 05:21 .

[HellishFiend]

Nesherius wrote...

I definitely think the endings did not live up to the rest of the game, not mentioning didn't live up to the series at all.
But
something's been bothering me since yesterday when I finished the game
for the first time: what if not only everything since Shepard's blackout
before reaching the Citadel beam has been a dream or a hallucination,
what if Bioware intentionally left things unresolved just to use it as
the starting point of Mass Effect 4? So that would mean that the next
game should start just after Shepard is left unconscious (or even
killed, introducing a new main character or controlling one of the
squadmates)

While I do think that Bioware is deceiving us in some ways, I think they are being honest about ME3 (and it's upcoming DLC) being the end of Shepard's story. So if that's true, then continuing the plot from that point in ME4 would involve a different avatar/protagonist.  Not sure that would work very well. 

[HellishFiend]

paxxton wrote...
I'm sure Lord Goose has a perfect answer to that as to everything Mass Effect.

I've been away for a few hours... He didnt steal our pic-a-nic basket while I was gone, did he?!

[paxxton]

HellishFiend wrote...

paxxton wrote...
I'm sure Lord Goose has a perfect answer to that as to everything Mass Effect.

I've been away for a few hours... He didnt steal our pic-a-nic basket while I was gone, did he?!

Nope.

Modifié par paxxton, 08 juin 2012 - 05:25 .

[HellishFiend]

paxxton wrote...

Nope.

Good! We have to stay vigilant against those tricky bears. 

Edit: For any dear readers that dont get the joke, the "pic-a-nic basket" is a metaphor for IT, and yogi bear is a metaphor for the sneaky trolls that try to come in here and steal it away from us, which would be a metaphor for crushing our belief in IT. Hopefully that makes sense.... 

Modifié par HellishFiend, 08 juin 2012 - 05:30 .

[EpyonX3]

HellishFiend wrote...

paxxton wrote...
I'm sure Lord Goose has a perfect answer to that as to everything Mass Effect.

I've been away for a few hours... He didnt steal our pic-a-nic basket while I was gone, did he?!

Just don't Peter Griffin him if he tries...