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[Electra77]

Arian Dynas wrote...

...

All the examples you are using are things DERIVED from Reaper tech.

They derived tech from him, saving the Collector base is different, it's intact, this is us being given the future, using dead Reapers is taking it for ourselves, the end is the same, but the journey is different.

But either way, the tech itself is not important in the context of IT, it's the fact that Shepard made the concious choice to let something created by the Reapers live. Read the EMS analysis in Salient Archer's sig for a better, more verbose and longwinded version.

Is the tech used in EDI or to upgrade the Geth a derivation of reaper tech?

The tech is only important to my orignal series of questions about the moral judgment made.  The ethics question is interesting to me.  I agree that it has no relevance to the proof or disproof of indoctrination.

[HellishFiend]

Electra77 wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

...
To be fair, an audio expert who also happens to be an IT theorist acted on a hunch and discovered that there is infrasonic noise being generated on the Normandy. We're working on getting some proof put together, and it's difficult because it requires specific equipment. The majority of sound systems will not attempt to reproduce infrasonic frequencies, since they are inaudible.

If we can definitively prove this, then any Reaper tech or Reaper influenced tech such as the Thanix cannon is fair game as a possible source of that infrasonic sound. 

Well, that could be EDI.  EDI analyzed the reaper IFF.  And turns out EDI was based in part on reaper tech.  So, why not EDI?  Not only has EDI indoctrinated Shepard, it has indoctinated Joker.  Everybody is wary of this AI at first, and then it wins them over.  Charming personality or indoctrination?

Could be EDI, sure. I'd be disappointed if she was actually aware of it though. I liked what they did with the development of her character and how it applies to the symbolism throughout the trilogy. 

[Arian Dynas]

Electra77 wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

...
To be fair, an audio expert who also happens to be an IT theorist acted on a hunch and discovered that there is infrasonic noise being generated on the Normandy. We're working on getting some proof put together, and it's difficult because it requires specific equipment. The majority of sound systems will not attempt to reproduce infrasonic frequencies, since they are inaudible.

If we can definitively prove this, then any Reaper tech or Reaper influenced tech such as the Thanix cannon is fair game as a possible source of that infrasonic sound. 

Well, that could be EDI.  EDI analyzed the reaper IFF.  And turns out EDI was based in part on reaper tech.  So, why not EDI?  Not only has EDI indoctrinated Shepard, it has indoctinated Joker.  Everybody is wary of this AI at first, and then it wins them over.  Charming personality or indoctrination?

EDI is not made of Reaper tech, she is made from tech DERIVED from Reaper tech, there is a difference. Ever seen the episode of Stargate SG-1 called Tangent? (no I have not memorized them, I only know that because I looked it up.) Basically mankind stole some alien ships, grafted them together with their technology, but the ship was intentionally malfunctioned so that it would throw the pilot into the far solar system. It was a failure.

However, when we tried the same plans, but using tech WE made, based off the designs we stole, we were able to pare off the parts we didn't like and the thing was a massive succsuess. It's like that.

EDI was already a trusted member of the crew to begin with, it was the body she had to get them used to, which, since it was EDI controlling it, they had an easier time swallowing. EDI saved the Normandy from the Collectors and built a rapport with Joker in ME2. She has been established among the crew for quite some time, there is very little chance she is a Reaper agent, and it makes no sense thematically.

[Rifneno]

Arian Dynas wrote...

Dude. Some of the games on the Wii include titles like Resident Evil. I doubt they'll censor ME3 if they really want to get it on the console.

But yes I'm with you either way WiiU is prolly gonna suck. The Wii was their good strike of luck, cheap and well handled enough to win them alot of money, they won't have that same luck again.

I never said they were consistant. I remember in their handheld remake of Lunar they removed alcohol references but added some dialogue where Jessica complains about being horny. I tried to make sense of it but I'd just start bleeding from the ears and black out.

Electra77 wrote...

Well, that could be EDI. EDI analyzed the reaper IFF. And turns out EDI was based in part on reaper tech. So, why not EDI? Not only has EDI indoctrinated Shepard, it has indoctinated Joker. Everybody is wary of this AI at first, and then it wins them over. Charming personality or indoctrination?

Personality. Indoctrination only works on characters and virtually all the players love EDI. And from a writing perspective it makes no sense for the Joker/EDI story arc to exist if she's going to turn out to be working for the bad guys.

[Electra77]

HellishFiend wrote...

...

Could be EDI, sure. I'd be disappointed if she was actually aware of it though. I liked what they did with the development of her character and how it applies to the symbolism throughout the trilogy. 

But then it would fit perfectly into the awesomeness of this never being done before argument that both the character and you are indoctrinated.  You have grown to trust and like a charatcer that is actually harbinger of your destruction (to borrow a phrase).  The symbolism and the play on your and the character's emotions are afterall tricks that the reaper like to play.

[Arian Dynas]

Electra77 wrote...

Salient Archer wrote...

...
Just going to drop this here: http://social.biowar...3/2141#11952209 I don't ask for you to agree with it, but just read it with an open mind .. and yes, it is very, very longwinded.

I read that in AD's reference post, and that was what I was quoting.  I was having trouble with the moral assessment of keeping the collector base as an immoral choice.  How did you arrive at that conclusion?  I don't see it in your referenced post.

The idea basically is that Shepard is compromising himself, he is making a descision that weakens his resolve. He basically betrayed the principles he had in ME1, no compromise, the Reapers die. Period.

[TJBartlemus]

Arian Dynas wrote...

TJBartlemus wrote...

You know how people were complaining about how EA i too focused on making money, like making possibilities for future ME games and first day DLC? Well this guy is either a genius or a nut. Hope it doesn't give EA an idea to make the EC availible to one person for a huge amount of money. (An you know whats sad? Is that someone would actually buy it.)

http://www.cinemable...-DLC-43383.html

That is the stupidest thing I have ever heard. It's a brilliant publicity stunt, but that's the extent of it. Peter Molyneux is also the same moron you must remember, who thought that Fable III was the greatest RPG ever designed in the history of ever, since he made it.

Fable III being the game where interaction with NPCs extends to either dancing with them, or farting in their faces. Yes real intelligent Peter.

Well the entire thing is an experiment to better understand gamers I guess. Still better than where EA took a poll on what beta testers thought about the ending, found they didn't like it and still released it anyway.

[byne]

Arian Dynas wrote...

TJBartlemus wrote...

You know how people were complaining about how EA i too focused on making money, like making possibilities for future ME games and first day DLC? Well this guy is either a genius or a nut. Hope it doesn't give EA an idea to make the EC availible to one person for a huge amount of money. (An you know whats sad? Is that someone would actually buy it.)

http://www.cinemable...-DLC-43383.html

That is the stupidest thing I have ever heard. It's a brilliant publicity stunt, but that's the extent of it. Peter Molyneux is also the same moron you must remember, who thought that Fable III was the greatest RPG ever designed in the history of ever, since he made it.

Fable III being the game where interaction with NPCs extends to either dancing with them, or farting in their faces. Yes real intelligent Peter.

That cube game sounds ridiculous.

When you are the last person to click before it breaks you get to see something 'truly amazing, absolutely unique'?

It wouldnt be unique once the person who breaks it just uploads a screenshot or video of the inside of the cube.

$50 says the person who clicks last wont actually see anything, and the developers will just claim they werent actually the last person to click it, and say someone else saw inside.

[HellishFiend]

I originally saved the collector base, and even was turned on to a few of TIM's ideals and morals.

But, I also picked Control.

If IT turns out to be true, then I think that powerfully demonstrates how the same morals and ethics that would compel you to rely on Reaper tech (and everything that relying on Reaper tech implies), are the same morals and ethics that are easily corrupted by the Reapers.

That alone is justification enough for why you shouldnt save the collector base.

It demonstrates that Shepard has immutable resolve, unshakable goals, and sound moral vision.

Though those qualities are relentlessly attacked throughout the course of ME3, it is ultimately up to the player to "decide" whether the very fabric that comprises your Shepard turns out to be his saving grace...or his downfall.

[HellishFiend]

Electra77 wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

...

Could be EDI, sure. I'd be disappointed if she was actually aware of it though. I liked what they did with the development of her character and how it applies to the symbolism throughout the trilogy. 

But then it would fit perfectly into the awesomeness of this never being done before argument that both the character and you are indoctrinated.  You have grown to trust and like a charatcer that is actually harbinger of your destruction (to borrow a phrase).  The symbolism and the play on your and the character's emotions are afterall tricks that the reaper like to play.

I can see why you feel that way, and I understand. However, I simply feel there is too much symbolism already there for them to want to remove it and replace it with a different type of symbolism altogether. And I'd be sad to see the current symbolism go. 

[Arian Dynas]

Electra77 wrote...

Arian Dynas wrote...

...

All the examples you are using are things DERIVED from Reaper tech.

They derived tech from him, saving the Collector base is different, it's intact, this is us being given the future, using dead Reapers is taking it for ourselves, the end is the same, but the journey is different.

But either way, the tech itself is not important in the context of IT, it's the fact that Shepard made the concious choice to let something created by the Reapers live. Read the EMS analysis in Salient Archer's sig for a better, more verbose and longwinded version.

Is the tech used in EDI or to upgrade the Geth a derivation of reaper tech?

The tech is only important to my orignal series of questions about the moral judgment made.  The ethics question is interesting to me.  I agree that it has no relevance to the proof or disproof of indoctrination.

I understand that. Which is why I am giving the argument about the morality.

Think of it like this, if you want it in the simplest terms I can put it. Saving the Collector Base would be like the Allied Forces saving a Holocaust extermination camp because they figured it might have valuable intelligence. They might find something, but they are preserving something out and out evil for a selfish purpose (don't bring up historical value here, that is NOT an argument I want to start.)

Only in this case, it has been shown that the mere presence of n@zi artifacts makes the arguments Hitler makes more compelling. (and yes I have noticed before the n@zi comparisions are disturbingly close)

[Andromidius]

TJBartlemus wrote...

You know how people were complaining about how EA i too focused on making money, like making possibilities for future ME games and first day DLC? Well this guy is either a genius or a nut. Hope it doesn't give EA an idea to make the EC availible to one person for a huge amount of money. (An you know whats sad? Is that someone would actually buy it.)

http://www.cinemable...-DLC-43383.html

Uh oh.  Peter Molyneux.  Abort!  Abort!

i.e. He's full of it.  Makes EA look very honest in comparison.

[byne]

HellishFiend wrote...

I originally saved the collector base, and even was turned on to a few of TIM's ideals and morals.

But, I also picked Control.

If IT turns out to be true, then I think that powerfully demonstrates how the same morals and ethics that would compel you to rely on Reaper tech (and everything that relying on Reaper tech implies), are the same morals and ethics that are easily corrupted by the Reapers.

That alone is justification enough for why you shouldnt save the collector base.

It demonstrates that Shepard has immutable resolve, unshakable goals, and sound moral vision.

Though those qualities are relentlessly attacked throughout the course of ME3, it is ultimately up to the player to "decide" whether the very fabric that comprises your Shepard turns out to be his saving grace...or his downfall.

I dont understand how anyone thinks keeping the Collector Base is a good idea. I'd be uneasy about keeping it even if I were keeping it to hand over to the Alliance, no way I'm ok giving it to Cerberus.

Hell, even Miranada, Cerberus cheerleader that she is, will flat out quit Cerberus if you bring her with you to fight the Proto-Reaper and choose to destroy the base.

Yknow, Miranda? The person who thinks Cerberus can do no wrong?

Even she  thinks TIM cant be trusted with it, and that keeping it intact is a betrayal to all the people the Collectors abducted.

[HellishFiend]

Arian Dynas wrote...

I understand that. Which is why I am giving the argument about the morality.

Think of it like this, if you want it in the simplest terms I can put it. Saving the Collector Base would be like the Allied Forces saving a Holocaust extermination camp because they figured it might have valuable intelligence. They might find something, but they are preserving something out and out evil for a selfish purpose (don't bring up historical value here, that is NOT an argument I want to start.)

Only in this case, it has been shown that the mere presence of n@zi artifacts makes the arguments Hitler makes more compelling. (and yes I have noticed before the n@zi comparisions are disturbingly close)

What did you think of my explanation above? I attempted to write it without using any similes of any kind. I think it turned out rather well. 

[Electra77]

Arian Dynas, so what about the geth? What about the mass relays and the citadel? They never tell us exactly how reaper tech is used to make EDI that I recall. So, who is to say that it is derivation versus direct application? TIM is certainly not opposed to direct application. He has time constraints and deadlines to work with.

And why does that matter anyway? If you reverse engineer something so that you can make it yourself, are you calling that derivation? How do you know that your derivation doesn't contain the elements that allow reapers to control and manipulate it?

[Andromidius]

byne wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

I originally saved the collector base, and even was turned on to a few of TIM's ideals and morals.

But, I also picked Control.

If IT turns out to be true, then I think that powerfully demonstrates how the same morals and ethics that would compel you to rely on Reaper tech (and everything that relying on Reaper tech implies), are the same morals and ethics that are easily corrupted by the Reapers.

That alone is justification enough for why you shouldnt save the collector base.

It demonstrates that Shepard has immutable resolve, unshakable goals, and sound moral vision.

Though those qualities are relentlessly attacked throughout the course of ME3, it is ultimately up to the player to "decide" whether the very fabric that comprises your Shepard turns out to be his saving grace...or his downfall.

I dont understand how anyone thinks keeping the Collector Base is a good idea. I'd be uneasy about keeping it even if I were keeping it to hand over to the Alliance, no way I'm ok giving it to Cerberus.

Hell, even Miranada, Cerberus cheerleader that she is, will flat out quit Cerberus if you bring her with you to fight the Proto-Reaper and choose to destroy the base.

Yknow, Miranda? The person who thinks Cerberus can do no wrong?

Even she  thinks TIM cant be trusted with it, and that keeping it intact is a betrayal to all the people the Collectors abducted.

Its really hard to avoid invoking Goodwin's Law with my view of using Reaper technology after defeating them...

But yeah, using technology that was created at the cost of more lives then I could even imagine, often made from the melted down remains of those lives?

Yeah, that's monsterous in of itself.

[HellishFiend]

byne wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

I originally saved the collector base, and even was turned on to a few of TIM's ideals and morals.

But, I also picked Control.

If IT turns out to be true, then I think that powerfully demonstrates how the same morals and ethics that would compel you to rely on Reaper tech (and everything that relying on Reaper tech implies), are the same morals and ethics that are easily corrupted by the Reapers.

That alone is justification enough for why you shouldnt save the collector base.

It demonstrates that Shepard has immutable resolve, unshakable goals, and sound moral vision.

Though those qualities are relentlessly attacked throughout the course of ME3, it is ultimately up to the player to "decide" whether the very fabric that comprises your Shepard turns out to be his saving grace...or his downfall.

I dont understand how anyone thinks keeping the Collector Base is a good idea. I'd be uneasy about keeping it even if I were keeping it to hand over to the Alliance, no way I'm ok giving it to Cerberus.

Hell, even Miranada, Cerberus cheerleader that she is, will flat out quit Cerberus if you bring her with you to fight the Proto-Reaper and choose to destroy the base.

Yknow, Miranda? The person who thinks Cerberus can do no wrong?

Even she  thinks TIM cant be trusted with it, and that keeping it intact is a betrayal to all the people the Collectors abducted.

Hindsight is 20/20. You may have seen one of my earlier posts in prior weeks where I said my justification was that I was too focused on the potential advantages that I lost sight of the implications and potential consequences. Greed.

I guess thats part of the reason why IT is so compelling for me. I want to know as much as possible about this storyline and experience that managed to exploit an apparent weakness in my real-life personality. 

[HellishFiend]

Electra77 wrote...

Arian Dynas, so what about the geth? What about the mass relays and the citadel? They never tell us exactly how reaper tech is used to make EDI that I recall. So, who is to say that it is derivation versus direct application? TIM is certainly not opposed to direct application. He has time constraints and deadlines to work with.

And why does that matter anyway? If you reverse engineer something so that you can make it yourself, are you calling that derivation? How do you know that your derivation doesn't contain the elements that allow reapers to control and manipulate it?

That is the thought process that leads to the strong possibility that Reapers indirectly snuck infrasonic sound onto the Normandy. 

[Dwailing]

Huh, James was just carrying both a Valkyrie and an Avenger on Mars at the same time in one cutscene.  However, unlike the Carnipredifexator (I should consider getting that trademarked. ), this one can easily be explained.  Without DLC, James should only be able to carry an Avenger at that point.  As such, it automatically loads the model for it.  However, since he has something different equiped, we end up with an Avenvalgerkyrie (Yes I know that one's harder to pronounce, it's the best I could do.).  At least, I assume that's what was happening.

[HellishFiend]

Andromidius wrote...


Its really hard to avoid invoking Goodwin's Law with my view of using Reaper technology after defeating them...

But yeah, using technology that was created at the cost of more lives then I could even imagine, often made from the melted down remains of those lives?

Yeah, that's monsterous in of itself.

I can see that now. If I refused to admit it, I'd be *shudder* in the pro-control camp. 

There's a mental image I can live without. 

[Andromidius]

HellishFiend wrote...

Andromidius wrote...


Its really hard to avoid invoking Goodwin's Law with my view of using Reaper technology after defeating them...

But yeah, using technology that was created at the cost of more lives then I could even imagine, often made from the melted down remains of those lives?

Yeah, that's monsterous in of itself.

I can see that now. If I refused to admit it, I'd be *shudder* in the pro-control camp. 

There's a mental image I can live without. 

I must admit even I was tempted during ME2 to save the Collector Base.  Heck, I think I even did it on my first playthrough (where people died, hense why I redid it).  I bought TIM's lines about saving the technology and using it to strengthen humanity against the oncoming Reaper invasion.

But in retrospect...  That Human Reaper is made from the melted down bodies of thousands of innocent colonists.  And the fact we HAVE to use a componant from it for the Crucible revolts me.

[Dwailing]

byne wrote...

Arian Dynas wrote...

TJBartlemus wrote...

You know how people were complaining about how EA i too focused on making money, like making possibilities for future ME games and first day DLC? Well this guy is either a genius or a nut. Hope it doesn't give EA an idea to make the EC availible to one person for a huge amount of money. (An you know whats sad? Is that someone would actually buy it.)

http://www.cinemable...-DLC-43383.html

That is the stupidest thing I have ever heard. It's a brilliant publicity stunt, but that's the extent of it. Peter Molyneux is also the same moron you must remember, who thought that Fable III was the greatest RPG ever designed in the history of ever, since he made it.

Fable III being the game where interaction with NPCs extends to either dancing with them, or farting in their faces. Yes real intelligent Peter.

That cube game sounds ridiculous.

When you are the last person to click before it breaks you get to see something 'truly amazing, absolutely unique'?

It wouldnt be unique once the person who breaks it just uploads a screenshot or video of the inside of the cube.

$50 says the person who clicks last wont actually see anything, and the developers will just claim they werent actually the last person to click it, and say someone else saw inside.

Actually, I find it a fascinating concept.  Of course, since it's Peter Molyneux, it probably won't be nearly as "truly amazing, absolutely unique" as he claims, but still, it's a cool idea nonetheless.  And who knows, maybe he'll actually come through on this one.

[HellishFiend]

Dwailing wrote...

Huh, James was just carrying both a Valkyrie and an Avenger on Mars at the same time in one cutscene.  However, unlike the Carnipredifexator (I should consider getting that trademarked. ), this one can easily be explained.  Without DLC, James should only be able to carry an Avenger at that point.  As such, it automatically loads the model for it.  However, since he has something different equiped, we end up with an Avenvalgerkyrie (Yes I know that one's harder to pronounce, it's the best I could do.).  At least, I assume that's what was happening.

Good find. This compels me to think that in addition to the Wrex Claymaal Spike Thromore incident, that hiding a gun model requires a specific flag to be set, otherwise it is shown by default (makes sense from a programmer's perspective. that's how i'd do it). 

That is further proof to me that the Carnipredifexator is intentional, otherwise it would display immediately upon being loaded as an asset for the Destroy ending, rather than waiting till that symbolically important moment. 

[TJBartlemus]

Andromidius wrote...

But in retrospect...  That Human Reaper is made from the melted down bodies of thousands of innocent colonists.  And the fact we HAVE to use a componant from it for the Crucible revolts me.

Why let a giant piece of advanced machinery go to waste? Besides, what's done is done.

[HellishFiend]

Andromidius wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

Andromidius wrote...


Its really hard to avoid invoking Goodwin's Law with my view of using Reaper technology after defeating them...

But yeah, using technology that was created at the cost of more lives then I could even imagine, often made from the melted down remains of those lives?

Yeah, that's monsterous in of itself.

I can see that now. If I refused to admit it, I'd be *shudder* in the pro-control camp. 

There's a mental image I can live without. 

I must admit even I was tempted during ME2 to save the Collector Base.  Heck, I think I even did it on my first playthrough (where people died, hense why I redid it).  I bought TIM's lines about saving the technology and using it to strengthen humanity against the oncoming Reaper invasion.

But in retrospect...  That Human Reaper is made from the melted down bodies of thousands of innocent colonists.  And the fact we HAVE to use a componant from it for the Crucible revolts me.

Well, if it's any consolation, there are two ways around that. The recent theory about how a partial or full hallucination may be starting as early as Cronos station would explain it. Also, Salient's EMS theory implies that perhaps the War Assets and their values cant be taken literally, which could mean the whole protoreaper heart/brain being used for the Crucible thing is actually just part of the Hallucination.