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[HellishFiend]

TJBartlemus wrote...

Andromidius wrote...

But in retrospect...  That Human Reaper is made from the melted down bodies of thousands of innocent colonists.  And the fact we HAVE to use a componant from it for the Crucible revolts me.

Why let a giant piece of advanced machinery go to waste? Besides, what's done is done.

Did you pick Control your first time through ME3? Be honest...

[Andromidius]

TJBartlemus wrote...

Andromidius wrote...

But in retrospect...  That Human Reaper is made from the melted down bodies of thousands of innocent colonists.  And the fact we HAVE to use a componant from it for the Crucible revolts me.

Why let a giant piece of advanced machinery go to waste? Besides, what's done is done.

Because of what it represents.  Would you use something that was made from the body parts of another person, for example?

Using such a thing is validating the people who made it in the first place.

[TJBartlemus]

HellishFiend wrote...

TJBartlemus wrote...

Andromidius wrote...

But in retrospect...  That Human Reaper is made from the melted down bodies of thousands of innocent colonists.  And the fact we HAVE to use a componant from it for the Crucible revolts me.

Why let a giant piece of advanced machinery go to waste? Besides, what's done is done.

Did you pick Control your first time through ME3? Be honest...

Actually no, I found control stupid. Why do what the Illuive Man has been advertising the whole game? Synthesis looked too much like it would just zap me and do nothing. Like if you jumped into the laser of the Death Star. Destroy is the only way!!!  I agree it's horrible that people were melted down for it and all but really. Shepard is in a war for the future of all the galaxy, and if you could get anything that could help you have better chances at survival, why not? Honestly in real life if you knew that your life depended on you getting everything you could, would you take it?

[byne]

TJBartlemus wrote...

Honestly in real life if you knew that your life depended on you getting everything you could, would you take it?

Nope. I'm gonna win this war, and I'm gonna do it without sacrificing the soul of our species.

[HellishFiend]

TJBartlemus wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

TJBartlemus wrote...

Andromidius wrote...

But in retrospect...  That Human Reaper is made from the melted down bodies of thousands of innocent colonists.  And the fact we HAVE to use a componant from it for the Crucible revolts me.

Why let a giant piece of advanced machinery go to waste? Besides, what's done is done.

Did you pick Control your first time through ME3? Be honest...

Actually no, I found control stupid. Why do what the Illuive Man has been advertising the whole game? Synthesis looked too much like it would just zap me and do nothing. Like if you jumped into the laser of the Death Star. Destroy is the only way!!!  I agree it's horrible that people were melted down for it and all but really. Shepard is in a war for the future of all the galaxy, and if you could get anything that could help you have better chances at survival, why not? Honestly in real life if you knew that your life depended on you getting everything you could, would you take it?

That line of thinking seems to lend itself perfectly towards picking Control, I would say. I'm surprised you went with Destroy. Probably a rare case of breaking a trend at a critical moment. 

[TJBartlemus]

Andromidius wrote...

TJBartlemus wrote...

Andromidius wrote...

But in retrospect...  That Human Reaper is made from the melted down bodies of thousands of innocent colonists.  And the fact we HAVE to use a componant from it for the Crucible revolts me.

Why let a giant piece of advanced machinery go to waste? Besides, what's done is done.

Because of what it represents.  Would you use something that was made from the body parts of another person, for example?

Using such a thing is validating the people who made it in the first place.

Let's awnser this with a quote:

Javik: Stand amongst the ashes of a trillion dead souls and ask the ghosts if honor matters.

[HellishFiend]

byne wrote...

TJBartlemus wrote...

Honestly in real life if you knew that your life depended on you getting everything you could, would you take it?

Nope. I'm gonna win this war, and I'm gonna do it without sacrificing the soul of our species.

I'd like to point out that a lot of Shepards that said that line went on to derp straight into the Synthesis beam.  

[dreamgazer]

The digital logistics of the gun morphing during the destroy ending are enough to make my head hurt.

[Electra77]

HellishFiend wrote...

I originally saved the collector base, and even was turned on to a few of TIM's ideals and morals.

But, I also picked Control.

If IT turns out to be true, then I think that powerfully demonstrates how the same morals and ethics that would compel you to rely on Reaper tech (and everything that relying on Reaper tech implies), are the same morals and ethics that are easily corrupted by the Reapers.

That alone is justification enough for why you shouldnt save the collector base.

It demonstrates that Shepard has immutable resolve, unshakable goals, and sound moral vision.

Though those qualities are relentlessly attacked throughout the course of ME3, it is ultimately up to the player to "decide" whether the very fabric that comprises your Shepard turns out to be his saving grace...or his downfall.

What are reaper ethics?  What is the reaper concept of good and bad?

On reaper tech, well you and everyone else.  The citadel and the mass relays are reaper tech.  FTL travel is not prothean, it is someone before them.  If it's bad for you to rely on reaper tech, then too late for the whole galaxy including humans. 

The reapers have been around for who knows how long.  Between long stints of sitting in dark space calculating pi, they harvest all advanced organic life.  At a certain point, is anything novel anymore?  And they also apparently leave stuff lying about to influence the development of each cycle.  The Protheans say it happens the same way all the time.  And thay have concluded that is not coincident.  So, why wouldn't analyzing the stuff reapers leave lying about with the intent of using it to defeat them be bad?

[HellishFiend]

dreamgazer wrote...

The digital logistics of the gun morphing during the destroy ending are enough to make my head hurt.

Why? Doesnt seem so tricky to me. 

[Andromidius]

TJBartlemus wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

TJBartlemus wrote...

Andromidius wrote...

But in retrospect...  That Human Reaper is made from the melted down bodies of thousands of innocent colonists.  And the fact we HAVE to use a componant from it for the Crucible revolts me.

Why let a giant piece of advanced machinery go to waste? Besides, what's done is done.

Did you pick Control your first time through ME3? Be honest...

Actually no, I found control stupid. Why do what the Illuive Man has been advertising the whole game? Synthesis looked too much like it would just zap me and do nothing. Like if you jumped into the laser of the Death Star. Destroy is the only way!!!  I agree it's horrible that people were melted down for it and all but really. Shepard is in a war for the future of all the galaxy, and if you could get anything that could help you have better chances at survival, why not? Honestly in real life if you knew that your life depended on you getting everything you could, would you take it?

I don't see it as being necessary anyway.  Reverse engineering things works just fine, after all.

Leads me to another gripe I have, but its not IT related par say.

"Conventional victory is impossible."

While I agree with the words, the way its used really annoys me.  Because what the heck is conventional about what the allied galactic races are doing in their war against the Reapers?

Krogan and Turians fighting side by side?  Using suicide tactics and generally ignoring the usual 'rules' of warfare?

Quarians and Geth not only fighting side by side, but Geth programs running inside Quarian suits?

Rachni helping the very people who exterminated their race?  Well, if they ever actually impliment that into the story like they said they would...

Salarians actually getting involved in front line combat?  And Drell?  And Volus?

Not to mention the Terminus Fleet, all Aria's mercenaries and the Batarians helping liberate Earth?

What is conventional about all that?  Conventional would be 'send in the Turians'!

[dreamgazer]

The lady ended up getting sick, so my trip to Prometheus was cancelled for the evening. So ... I'll be hovering over this thread, cranking through Tuchanka, and maybe engaging a little multi-player.

And a movie later, but that's another story.

Anything interesting unearthed today? I've mostly been playing outside the walls of the thread when I've had spare time today.

[byne]

Andromidius wrote...

I don't see it as being necessary anyway.  Reverse engineering things works just fine, after all.

Leads me to another gripe I have, but its not IT related par say.

"Conventional victory is impossible."

While I agree with the words, the way its used really annoys me.  Because what the heck is conventional about what the allied galactic races are doing in their war against the Reapers?

Krogan and Turians fighting side by side?  Using suicide tactics and generally ignoring the usual 'rules' of warfare?

Quarians and Geth not only fighting side by side, but Geth programs running inside Quarian suits?

Rachni helping the very people who exterminated their race?  Well, if they ever actually impliment that into the story like they said they would...

Salarians actually getting involved in front line combat?  And Drell?  And Volus?

Not to mention the Terminus Fleet, all Aria's mercenaries and the Batarians helping liberate Earth?

What is conventional about all that?  Conventional would be 'send in the Turians'!

Dont forget about the salarian stealth dreadnoughts that all have Reaper IFFs installed on them.

[TJBartlemus]

byne wrote...

TJBartlemus wrote...

Honestly in real life if you knew that your life depended on you getting everything you could, would you take it?

Nope. I'm gonna win this war, and I'm gonna do it without sacrificing the soul of our species.

It's actually funny because generally I lean towards more of a Paragon type player, but there are moments in the game where I have to agree with Javik. Morals matter and keeping them is important but war is dirty and not forgiving. There are times that you have to make hard decisions to make sure people survive. Expecially with the Reapers who don't care and will do anything to win.

[HellishFiend]

Electra77 wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

I originally saved the collector base, and even was turned on to a few of TIM's ideals and morals.

But, I also picked Control.

If IT turns out to be true, then I think that powerfully demonstrates how the same morals and ethics that would compel you to rely on Reaper tech (and everything that relying on Reaper tech implies), are the same morals and ethics that are easily corrupted by the Reapers.

That alone is justification enough for why you shouldnt save the collector base.

It demonstrates that Shepard has immutable resolve, unshakable goals, and sound moral vision.

Though those qualities are relentlessly attacked throughout the course of ME3, it is ultimately up to the player to "decide" whether the very fabric that comprises your Shepard turns out to be his saving grace...or his downfall.

What are reaper ethics?  What is the reaper concept of good and bad?

On reaper tech, well you and everyone else.  The citadel and the mass relays are reaper tech.  FTL travel is not prothean, it is someone before them.  If it's bad for you to rely on reaper tech, then too late for the whole galaxy including humans. 

The reapers have been around for who knows how long.  Between long stints of sitting in dark space calculating pi, they harvest all advanced organic life.  At a certain point, is anything novel anymore?  And they also apparently leave stuff lying about to influence the development of each cycle.  The Protheans say it happens the same way all the time.  And thay have concluded that is not coincident.  So, why wouldn't analyzing the stuff reapers leave lying about with the intent of using it to defeat them be bad?

I never used the phrase "Reaper ethics", so I dont know the answer to that first question. 

On that next point, well yeah, thats probably a good reason why countless millions or billions of years' worth of cycles have gone by with the Reapers winning each time. 

[dreamgazer]

HellishFiend wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

The digital logistics of the gun morphing during the destroy ending are enough to make my head hurt.

Why? Doesnt seem so tricky to me. 

I'm still having such a hard time processing that clue as intended, even if the gun-morph video has swayed me towards being something of a believer.  Thematically, I'm on-board, but I was on-board with Ashley standing in the docking bay too ... for a while.

I dunno, it seems like a lot of premeditated decisions for a split-second visual cue.  But I might just be feeling a little cynical tonight. 

[Andromidius]

byne wrote...

Andromidius wrote...

I don't see it as being necessary anyway.  Reverse engineering things works just fine, after all.

Leads me to another gripe I have, but its not IT related par say.

"Conventional victory is impossible."

While I agree with the words, the way its used really annoys me.  Because what the heck is conventional about what the allied galactic races are doing in their war against the Reapers?

Krogan and Turians fighting side by side?  Using suicide tactics and generally ignoring the usual 'rules' of warfare?

Quarians and Geth not only fighting side by side, but Geth programs running inside Quarian suits?

Rachni helping the very people who exterminated their race?  Well, if they ever actually impliment that into the story like they said they would...

Salarians actually getting involved in front line combat?  And Drell?  And Volus?

Not to mention the Terminus Fleet, all Aria's mercenaries and the Batarians helping liberate Earth?

What is conventional about all that?  Conventional would be 'send in the Turians'!

Dont forget about the salarian stealth dreadnoughts that all have Reaper IFFs installed on them.

Those too.  Further hammering in the concept that this isn't a conventional war.

Heck, if we're going to go by real world comparisons it would be similar to the Vietnam War.  Conventionally the US forces could crush the Vietcong without much effort.  But the use of unconventional tactics and help from their allies they eventually managed to grind down the US into pulling out.

Only the Reapers (probably) don't have civilians at home pressuring them to give up on a bloody war.  So they won't quit.  Probably.

Yeah.

[Arian Dynas]

HellishFiend wrote...

Electra77 wrote...

Arian Dynas, so what about the geth? What about the mass relays and the citadel? They never tell us exactly how reaper tech is used to make EDI that I recall. So, who is to say that it is derivation versus direct application? TIM is certainly not opposed to direct application. He has time constraints and deadlines to work with.

And why does that matter anyway? If you reverse engineer something so that you can make it yourself, are you calling that derivation? How do you know that your derivation doesn't contain the elements that allow reapers to control and manipulate it?

That is the thought process that leads to the strong possibility that Reapers indirectly snuck infrasonic sound onto the Normandy. 

The Geth are a creation of the quarians. and eventually a creation of themselves, Legion based his AI enhancer off Reaper code, but it was his own creation, he did not have his future given to him, he took it.

And last I checked, he's the antagonist of the series, and Indoctrinated.

No, they do not, other than stating that she is based OFF Reaper tech, and does not actually contain any Reaper tech, they are no more specific than that.

Direct application means you are using someone else's tech, derivation means that you understand the tech and chose to make your own, which means it branches off into a different direction, and it means YOU control what goes into it.

Yes. But to reverse engineer something, you must understand what each part does, how it does it and WHY it does it, therefore you have the possibility of taking out dangerous things.

But really, in the end, this is like the D&D Alignment debate, it's like trying to apply real world morality into a world with absolute morality, it doesn't work. In Mass Effect, the Reapers are evil, with certain exceptions that they took, such as the Mass Relays and the Citadel(fan theories aside), what they create uses indoctrination, which is inherently dangerous and evil. That's all there is to it, it can't be used, it can't be controlled or manipulated, it can be copied and it can provide a basis for other things, but by their very nature, the Reapers and their creations cannot be controlled, and beliving you can is the very kind of hubris that allows them to manipulate you, as we can see with The Illusive Man.

[TJBartlemus]

Andromidius wrote...

Those too.  Further hammering in the concept that this isn't a conventional war.

Heck, if we're going to go by real world comparisons it would be similar to the Vietnam War.  Conventionally the US forces could crush the Vietcong without much effort.  But the use of unconventional tactics and help from their allies they eventually managed to grind down the US into pulling out.

Only the Reapers (probably) don't have civilians at home pressuring them to give up on a bloody war.  So they won't quit.  Probably.

Yeah.

That's sort of the point I have been trying to make. You have to do difficult things in war, but it's harder to make sure you know when and where to draw the line.

Edit: I hope that makes sense. Point is do what is needed but don't lose your humanity or morals.

Modifié par TJBartlemus, 09 juin 2012 - 02:29 .

[Arian Dynas]

TJBartlemus wrote...

Andromidius wrote...

Those too.  Further hammering in the concept that this isn't a conventional war.

Heck, if we're going to go by real world comparisons it would be similar to the Vietnam War.  Conventionally the US forces could crush the Vietcong without much effort.  But the use of unconventional tactics and help from their allies they eventually managed to grind down the US into pulling out.

Only the Reapers (probably) don't have civilians at home pressuring them to give up on a bloody war.  So they won't quit.  Probably.

Yeah.

That's sort of the point I have been trying to make. You have to do difficult things in war, but it's harder to make sure you know when and where to draw the line.

If we don't draw the line, we become what we're fighting, we turn into Cerberus, deluding ourselves into thinking we're the good guys, or we admit we're the villians and become our own Reapers.

[Arian Dynas]

Electra77 wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

I originally saved the collector base, and even was turned on to a few of TIM's ideals and morals.

But, I also picked Control.

If IT turns out to be true, then I think that powerfully demonstrates how the same morals and ethics that would compel you to rely on Reaper tech (and everything that relying on Reaper tech implies), are the same morals and ethics that are easily corrupted by the Reapers.

That alone is justification enough for why you shouldnt save the collector base.

It demonstrates that Shepard has immutable resolve, unshakable goals, and sound moral vision.

Though those qualities are relentlessly attacked throughout the course of ME3, it is ultimately up to the player to "decide" whether the very fabric that comprises your Shepard turns out to be his saving grace...or his downfall.

What are reaper ethics?  What is the reaper concept of good and bad?

On reaper tech, well you and everyone else.  The citadel and the mass relays are reaper tech.  FTL travel is not prothean, it is someone before them.  If it's bad for you to rely on reaper tech, then too late for the whole galaxy including humans. 

The reapers have been around for who knows how long.  Between long stints of sitting in dark space calculating pi, they harvest all advanced organic life.  At a certain point, is anything novel anymore?  And they also apparently leave stuff lying about to influence the development of each cycle.  The Protheans say it happens the same way all the time.  And thay have concluded that is not coincident.  So, why wouldn't analyzing the stuff reapers leave lying about with the intent of using it to defeat them be bad?

Good is order. Good is synthesis, good is harmony and control and solidarity.

Evil is chaos, evil is organics and the riotous vomitation of varied life, spewn out by the chaos of evolution. Evil is fragility and weakness.

Reapers are very uncomfortable with the idea that something could go off a controlled path, which is why they beleive themselves to be the End of Evolution, why they created the Mass Relays, so that technology could never leave their designed path.

There's a difference between using their discoveries, and things without indoctrination waves, and using Reaper tech straight up.

There's analyzing, and then there's using their tech against them. I don't really have a better way to explain it really.

[Arian Dynas]

Also, want you to know, this is a good debate, very heavy, very thought provoking, well done.

[Arian Dynas]

And, since I think it might help make MY position clearer, my theory on the Reaper's birth and their motivations;

[quote]
It seems I need to drag out my own theory on the Reapers again, for the benefit of this thread, and for great justice.

Here is their beginning, in my humble opinion;

Millions of years ago, the evil alien lord Xenu..

Wait, wrong one. *pulls out the disc and snaps it in half* damn Scientologists...

Sorry about that;

Millions of years ago, when the Milky Way was still young, a species of carnivores arose to sentience, they were intelligent, murderously so, being far more canny than they prey they hunted.

As they evolved, they developed a natural talent for both science, and war. They conquered their own planet, setting out into the Milky Way in their newly made ships, bristling with horrifying technology.

Planet after planet fell to them, as their empire grew, they mastered yet more wicked sciences, learning how to manipulate the minds of their enemies, how to render down one thing they had in surplus, bodies, into useable building material, they mastered use of the Mass Effect, discovered quantum shielding, and created the first Mass Relays to facillitate speedy travel from one end of their empire to another.

Soon they drew the attention of another, equally powerful foe, a species of insectoid aliens, known for their impressive technical skills, and their abilty as engineers, holding one of the most powerful navies in the galaxy.

The two species clashed with one another, horrifying weapons of war being designed and stolen by each, kinetic accelerator cannons finding themselves replaced with heat generating weapons, firing channels of superaccelerated liquid metal, deep cover agents being created from once trusted friends, forces turning on oneanother, fighters running kamikazi runs at light speed into the sides of powerful dreadnoughts and capital ships, a war that left scars on every world they fought, and eventually lost.

This dark race that arose to face their insectiod enemies was eventually pushed back to their homeworld, a dying, slowly withering rock, orbiting a dying star, a star due to finally end it's life in a massive conflagration that will take with it it's stony children, including their homeworld.

Desperation sets in, this violent race, desiring to see the continued existence of their species begins work on a method of saving their future.

Soon they realize all their hopes are for naught, there is no possible way for them to save themselves, they simply do not have the means to transport sufficient numbers of their population offworld, to survive the vengeance of their enemies.

Then, one brilliant mind comes upon a soloution. Space and resources preclude the body from traveling, but nothing at all precludes the mind from doing so.

Their hope rekindled, they begin work upon the refit of the greatest of their flagships, turning it into the mightiest ship ever seen, a monster nearly three kilometers in length, a suitable chariot for their species' collective intellect.

They incorporate their mightiest weapons, their most efficient and powerful kinetic barriers and engines, even developing an entirely new form of engine, creating areas of mass free space their flagship will "fall into" they pour all their resources into it, and find them insufficient.

They have run out of building materials.

But, not to be stopped, one of their most brilliant military minds comes to two realizations;

One, they won't need their bodies if they are transporting their minds with the ship, hence they can easily render them down for more building materials needed for the mind storage core.

And two, the ship, then if deprived of the crew needed to help provide building materials, will need someone to crew her, and if they should be attacked, or need to take a world to form their new homeworld, they will need groundtroops, an army.

They turn again to their grim technologies, and find the answer already prepared for them, they turn to their mental manipulation equipment, making it more efficient, and developing new, more effective ways to manipulate the body, as well as the mind, for they long ago mastered the technique of forging flesh as easily as metal.

Soon their great work is to be completed, they near the birth of the great ship that shall be the salvation of their race, taking them and their collective minds far from their dying home. The last minds are transferred into the completed ship, with their greatest military mind, whom is also their ruler, being the last to "board".

He joins his mind to the rest, and then something goes horribly wrong. Rather than maintaining a million distinct personalities, minds and psyches, they form into one horrifying gestalt, a single mind formed of many, a mind more horrible than all of their collective cruelties inflicted upon the galaxy, something perfect, and terrible in it's perfection.

A mind that belives itself to be the end of evolution, a single mind now, which has come to the realization that it is the child of an entire great species, a species which sacrificed everything for it's creation, it's perfection. A perfection it must share, this is the greatest achivement that it's species could form, nay that ANY species could possibly achive, the creation of a collective mind so great, so mighty, a mind that is immortal, not subject to the ravages of time, capable of leveling continents and cities with insulting ease, surely something so great MUST be perfection incarnate, surely this is what is must be to be a God, and as we all know, Gods, are perfect, and all others must find a way to achive this perfection, no all others must be MADE to become as perfect as this new being.


It will help all others ascend to it's level, or if they refuse, they will be forced. This new being will bring them perfection, their destiny, it will be a Harbinger of all they will become.

This new Harbinger, as it calls itself, first attacks their old enemies, causing great harm and massive damage before being driven off, nearly destroyed in it's own attempt, leading it to realize, that despite it's perfection, it remains subject to being killed. Therfore, it requires allies. The Harbinger attacks the remains of several of the old empire's enemies, forming new capital ships of the "worthy" enemies, ones as diverse, intellectual, and strong as its own progenitors, while lesser enemies lose their individuality to become Destroyers, and the animals of these broken planets, rather than being left to simply rot and go to waste, are rendered down into becoming the unintelligent Processing Ships and Troop Transports piloted by other, more worthy ships.

Soon, even their greatest enemy, the insectoid species of engineers falls to their might, the first cycle having completed.

When at this point, the Harbinger comes to a realization. It has scoured the galaxy clean of advanced life, it could destroy all organic life now if it wished.

But that would deny future races the chance at perfection attained by it and it's compatriots. It makes a descision, they will allow organic life to thrive for a time, until it achives greatness as it's own species did, before they return and capture it in the apex of it's greatness, storing it in their new form, making way for other species to join their ranks, but they will need a method of control, a way to ensure their victory before the war has already begun, so that their technology might evolve along paths they understand and know, therefore they create the Mass Relay network, and the Citadel, taking their greatest enemy and repurposing them into the "Keepers" of this new Citadel, so that it's secrets may not be found, and as a final insult to the foe whom nearly drove them to extinction. Every cycle they extend their understanding with the great discoveries of the next species to join them, stripping worlds of their technology to study and understand, learning more of the universe, and ensuring they are prepared for yet more technologies designed by these younger races. They choose to leave behind one of the mightiest of their number, the second of their kind, formed by the Harbinger, the one known as Nazara, to be their vanguard in the next cycle, making the case that the second strongest of their number should be the first strike they make.

And thus, the new "Reapers" begin to gather in dark space, waiting for their crop of flesh to arise anew. [/quote]
[/quote]

[Andromidius]

Arian Dynas wrote...

Good is order. Good is synthesis, good is harmony and control and solidarity.

Reapers strike me as Lawful Evil.  They do evil to bring order to the galaxy.

Though quite why they keep setting organics up to be destroyed again and again really does beg the question - why?

Easiest answers are:

1/ They are insane.

2/ They really hate organics, and can't get enough of destroying them.

3/ They are procreating in the only way they know how, and organics are just 'material'.

4/ Some other unknown reason.

Regardless, they come under the 'Evil' category.  Without question.

[Arian Dynas]

Andromidius wrote...

Arian Dynas wrote...

Good is order. Good is synthesis, good is harmony and control and solidarity.

Reapers strike me as Lawful Evil.  They do evil to bring order to the galaxy.

Though quite why they keep setting organics up to be destroyed again and again really does beg the question - why?

Easiest answers are:

1/ They are insane.

2/ They really hate organics, and can't get enough of destroying them.

3/ They are procreating in the only way they know how, and organics are just 'material'.

4/ Some other unknown reason.

Regardless, they come under the 'Evil' category.  Without question.

Read my post above for MY take on the whole thing, the idea basically being that they do it out of a sort of sick and twisted philanthropy.