55528 réponses à ce sujet

[HellishFiend]

Arashi08 wrote...
That's what is so interesting about the exchange on Rannoch with the Destroyer.  in the dialogue with it Shepard's mentioning of Destroying the Reapers comes with a Paragon interrupt.  however, the Renegade interrupt occurs when Shepard talks about "taking control."  and yet if you base the ending choices solely on color, it seems like the two stances are reversed.

They are indeed quite reversed. That is a big part of what I believe to be the hidden meta experience that hasnt been revealed yet. 

[Turbo_J]

HellishFiend wrote...

Salient Archer wrote...


Back in ME2 I was convinced that the collector base could be the very thing to turn the tide, but we had hard proof that trying to unlock the secrets of Reaper tech corrupts and always leads to a fall and even with the ethical dilemma of what it represented aside it was a dangerous risk, it was an opportunity for mankind's grasp to extend past it’s reach. Shepard knows the dangers of Reaper tech, he’s seen what it did to Saren, he’s seen it on Virmire, he’s seen it on the derelict reaper and object rho and we the player have even more sources to prove that Reaper tech always leads to a fall and this doesn’t even cover the ethics in choosing to keep it. 

Regardless, I ask you this: Is mankind worth saving if we have to loose our humanity to do so?

I think most players seem to forget about that bolded part at the most critical moments. In almost all cases it requires retrospect to realize that all of the information that points us toward the correct decision is "hidden in the data", and we have to try hard to keep that information at the forefront so that we can use it to guide us. 

Not to side track, but I love that statement. I always hear it in Liara's ME1 voice. It give me goosebumps hearing Vendetta's explanation of the cycle match her description of it near word for word - way back in ME1. 'The patter is there, buried in the data'

[Salient Archer]

GethPrimeMKII wrote...

Salient Archer wrote...

Ok guys, time to help me out. It's near imposible to get a sensible answer from anyone outside of this forum so the question I'd like you guys to ponder is this:

'Please explain from a literalist perspective where Shepard is during the breath scene and how did Shepard get there?

Please only use in-game and in-universe evidence as I will not accept "the starchild is malevolent" crap."

Also bear in mind the following:

-the size and intensity of the blast
-what possible exits Shepard has that we see in the cinematic
-kinetic barriers can not withstand high temperatures or radiation
-the time that takes place between the tube destruction and the citadel explosion
-the general laws of physics and thermodynamics
-the environment(s) Shepard would be subjected to

Obviously I'm very pro-ITD but remember Iron-Sharpens-Iron and I'm honestly just curious what truly intelectual and analytical minds could come up with from a literalist perspective.

If its not too late to take a crack at tis question, I think I can answer all your questions with just one piece of evidence.



Perfect explanation right there.

How could I be so blind?

[HellishFiend]

TJBartlemus wrote...

You know what I need cleared up is the question of did Shepard truely die? If he absolutly flatlined and brain dead then there is no salvaging of the body then. I like how shepard himself commented on Cronos station that he didn't know if he was a clone. If he was a clone it would make sense that you are able to change his appearance and abilities from 1 to 2. (For example a blond haired white guy to a brown hair african american. And all your friends recognize you though:huh:) So did someone get to his body in time and did something to it to preserve the brain?

I think that we have been led to believe that the science behind Shepard's resurrection is sound, at least in the fictional ME universe. We may have no choice but to accept it without being able to seriously question it, since it is fiction after all. 

I would be willing to entertain the idea that the science has been falsified and something else is going on, but I'd be hesitant to work on that sort of theory myself, because it seems like it would be difficult to make into something truly cohesive. 

[HellishFiend]

Turbo_J wrote...

Not to side track, but I love that statement. I always hear it in Liara's ME1 voice. It give me goosebumps hearing Vendetta's explanation of the cycle match her description of it near word for word - way back in ME1. 'The patter is there, buried in the data'

Tidbits like that are a big part of what cause me to believe that this "Indoctrination Ending" may have been planned from the start. There are too many things that seem like they have been planned to work together and develop into something bigger all along. 

[Arashi08]

TJBartlemus wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

Arashi08 wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

Arashi08 wrote...


According to Retribution, Grayson was the first Cerberus subject implanted with reaper tech, which took place AFTER the events of ME2.  So it doesn't seem very likely that Shepard could have possibly been given Reaper tech, since Grayson was the basis for Cerberus' implantation of their own troops.

That does seem logical. Are we sure though that Grayson was the first one to be implanted with Reaper tech of any kind though, or just the nanides?

A good question, but I remember looking at the vids (or maybe a vid) on Chronos station mentioning how Grayson's implants had been instrumental in their work, yet they never mention in other footage about how much Shepard's implants have affected their research either. 

Still, this is a weak counterpoint.  A stronger one would likely be how TIM was adamant that Shepard be the same person she was before her death.  TIM was clear that he wanted THE Commander Shepard and not a tool that would follow orders.  Considering that it was highly likely that TIM and Cerberus knew about the Indoctrination effect Reaper tech had on people,  butbased on events like the Derelict Reaper, didn't understand how it worked I don't see him taking the chance that Shepard could become an indoctrinated servant, especially one that could end up working for the Reapers.

And of course there was the fact that Dr. Chakwas was able to scan your implants to check for anything nasty Cerberus left, I would assume she had an understanding of what Shepard's Implants consisted of.

I would indeed be inclined to think that since the writers went through so much trouble to stress that TIM wanted Shepard back as Shepard, and to point out that Shepard was clean, that it means something of significance. 

I wasnt necessarily making a counterpoint to your idea, just offering a question up to help explore it further, which seems to have worked. 

You know what I need cleared up is the question of did Shepard truely die? If he absolutly flatlined and brain dead then there is no salvaging of the body then. I like how shepard himself commented on Cronos station that he didn't know if he was a clone. If he was a clone it would make sense that you are able to change his appearance and abilities from 1 to 2. (For example a blond haired white guy to a brown hair african american. And all your friends recognize you though:huh:) So did someone get to his body in time and did something to it to preserve the brain?

I'm no doctor I think it depends on how long Shepard was dead.  The brain can survive seven minutes or so without oxygen before the brain cells die off.  Also  we do see Cerberus reaminating necrotic cells and tissue so if the brain cells could be revived then maybe the data stored within them can be saved as well.  It is also possible that they could use Shepard's genetic memory, though that does go into AC territory a little here.  still, it is Science-fiction so itisn't entirely grounded in our sense of reality. 

SB's agents got to Shepard's body and placed her in stasis, which Feron ( I think) claims puts Shepard in a state that is "Neither living or dead"

As for Shepard being a clone, im positive that isn't the case, since Liara knew that Shepard was the real Shepard the first time she touched her again.  I can't imagine, that a clone, even with all the same memories, could have an identical pattern that Liara could recognize as the real Shepard.

[Turbo_J]

HellishFiend wrote...

Turbo_J wrote...

Not to side track, but I love that statement. I always hear it in Liara's ME1 voice. It give me goosebumps hearing Vendetta's explanation of the cycle match her description of it near word for word - way back in ME1. 'The patter is there, buried in the data'

Tidbits like that are a big part of what cause me to believe that this "Indoctrination Ending" may have been planned from the start. There are too many things that seem like they have been planned to work together and develop into something bigger all along. 

Like exposing Shep to two hostile AI's outside of the Geth Heretics?

Oily Shadows.

Beings of light - How many other instances of misinformation are there like this?

Sovereign's diatribe - best HFS moment of the game besides Eletania; which could have been Epic, but I think they wanted people to forget that... it even said as much in the last text box.

I need to go back and play ME1 again. I know there is more... so much more.

[balance5050]

Arashi08 wrote...

TJBartlemus wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

Arashi08 wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

Arashi08 wrote...


According to Retribution, Grayson was the first Cerberus subject implanted with reaper tech, which took place AFTER the events of ME2.  So it doesn't seem very likely that Shepard could have possibly been given Reaper tech, since Grayson was the basis for Cerberus' implantation of their own troops.

That does seem logical. Are we sure though that Grayson was the first one to be implanted with Reaper tech of any kind though, or just the nanides?

A good question, but I remember looking at the vids (or maybe a vid) on Chronos station mentioning how Grayson's implants had been instrumental in their work, yet they never mention in other footage about how much Shepard's implants have affected their research either. 

Still, this is a weak counterpoint.  A stronger one would likely be how TIM was adamant that Shepard be the same person she was before her death.  TIM was clear that he wanted THE Commander Shepard and not a tool that would follow orders.  Considering that it was highly likely that TIM and Cerberus knew about the Indoctrination effect Reaper tech had on people,  butbased on events like the Derelict Reaper, didn't understand how it worked I don't see him taking the chance that Shepard could become an indoctrinated servant, especially one that could end up working for the Reapers.

And of course there was the fact that Dr. Chakwas was able to scan your implants to check for anything nasty Cerberus left, I would assume she had an understanding of what Shepard's Implants consisted of.

I would indeed be inclined to think that since the writers went through so much trouble to stress that TIM wanted Shepard back as Shepard, and to point out that Shepard was clean, that it means something of significance. 

I wasnt necessarily making a counterpoint to your idea, just offering a question up to help explore it further, which seems to have worked. 

You know what I need cleared up is the question of did Shepard truely die? If he absolutly flatlined and brain dead then there is no salvaging of the body then. I like how shepard himself commented on Cronos station that he didn't know if he was a clone. If he was a clone it would make sense that you are able to change his appearance and abilities from 1 to 2. (For example a blond haired white guy to a brown hair african american. And all your friends recognize you though:huh:) So did someone get to his body in time and did something to it to preserve the brain?

I'm no doctor I think it depends on how long Shepard was dead.  The brain can survive seven minutes or so without oxygen before the brain cells die off.  Also  we do see Cerberus reaminating necrotic cells and tissue so if the brain cells could be revived then maybe the data stored within them can be saved as well.  It is also possible that they could use Shepard's genetic memory, though that does go into AC territory a little here.  still, it is Science-fiction so itisn't entirely grounded in our sense of reality. 

SB's agents got to Shepard's body and placed her in stasis, which Feron ( I think) claims puts Shepard in a state that is "Neither living or dead"

As for Shepard being a clone, im positive that isn't the case, since Liara knew that Shepard was the real Shepard the first time she touched her again.  I can't imagine, that a clone, even with all the same memories, could have an identical pattern that Liara could recognize as the real Shepard.

The planet was very cold so the freezing of his brain may have helped to preserve it, I wouldn't be surprised if it was frozen before he even made impact.

People have drowned in freezing water and have been brought back after several hours with no noticable brain damage simplly because the cold preserved brain function.

[Arian Dynas]

HellishFiend wrote...

Turbo_J wrote...

Not to side track, but I love that statement. I always hear it in Liara's ME1 voice. It give me goosebumps hearing Vendetta's explanation of the cycle match her description of it near word for word - way back in ME1. 'The patter is there, buried in the data'

Tidbits like that are a big part of what cause me to believe that this "Indoctrination Ending" may have been planned from the start. There are too many things that seem like they have been planned to work together and develop into something bigger all along. 

I have never belived that this whole thing was planned out beyond the most basic general idea...

But, as a writer, I can say this. Just because you did't have things planned out from the beginning, it doesn't mean that you can't make connections.

[Turbo_J]

Arashi08 wrote...

TJBartlemus wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

Arashi08 wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

Arashi08 wrote...


According to Retribution, Grayson was the first Cerberus subject implanted with reaper tech, which took place AFTER the events of ME2.  So it doesn't seem very likely that Shepard could have possibly been given Reaper tech, since Grayson was the basis for Cerberus' implantation of their own troops.

That does seem logical. Are we sure though that Grayson was the first one to be implanted with Reaper tech of any kind though, or just the nanides?

A good question, but I remember looking at the vids (or maybe a vid) on Chronos station mentioning how Grayson's implants had been instrumental in their work, yet they never mention in other footage about how much Shepard's implants have affected their research either. 

Still, this is a weak counterpoint.  A stronger one would likely be how TIM was adamant that Shepard be the same person she was before her death.  TIM was clear that he wanted THE Commander Shepard and not a tool that would follow orders.  Considering that it was highly likely that TIM and Cerberus knew about the Indoctrination effect Reaper tech had on people,  butbased on events like the Derelict Reaper, didn't understand how it worked I don't see him taking the chance that Shepard could become an indoctrinated servant, especially one that could end up working for the Reapers.

And of course there was the fact that Dr. Chakwas was able to scan your implants to check for anything nasty Cerberus left, I would assume she had an understanding of what Shepard's Implants consisted of.

I would indeed be inclined to think that since the writers went through so much trouble to stress that TIM wanted Shepard back as Shepard, and to point out that Shepard was clean, that it means something of significance. 

I wasnt necessarily making a counterpoint to your idea, just offering a question up to help explore it further, which seems to have worked. 

You know what I need cleared up is the question of did Shepard truely die? If he absolutly flatlined and brain dead then there is no salvaging of the body then. I like how shepard himself commented on Cronos station that he didn't know if he was a clone. If he was a clone it would make sense that you are able to change his appearance and abilities from 1 to 2. (For example a blond haired white guy to a brown hair african american. And all your friends recognize you though:huh:) So did someone get to his body in time and did something to it to preserve the brain?

I'm no doctor I think it depends on how long Shepard was dead.  The brain can survive seven minutes or so without oxygen before the brain cells die off.  Also  we do see Cerberus reaminating necrotic cells and tissue so if the brain cells could be revived then maybe the data stored within them can be saved as well.  It is also possible that they could use Shepard's genetic memory, though that does go into AC territory a little here.  still, it is Science-fiction so itisn't entirely grounded in our sense of reality. 

SB's agents got to Shepard's body and placed her in stasis, which Feron ( I think) claims puts Shepard in a state that is "Neither living or dead"

As for Shepard being a clone, im positive that isn't the case, since Liara knew that Shepard was the real Shepard the first time she touched her again.  I can't imagine, that a clone, even with all the same memories, could have an identical pattern that Liara could recognize as the real Shepard.

Thanks about what you are saying here and apply it to Reaper goo.

Derivatives of Reaper tech were used to bring Shep back. If the tech can do that, what's to say that the individual intelligences of the populations reaped are not intact in at least the cognitive sense... maybe no emotional memory or personality or even life/soul as we define it, but never the less - the essence of it may remain.

[HellishFiend]

Arian Dynas wrote...

I have never belived that this whole thing was planned out beyond the most basic general idea...

But, as a writer, I can say this. Just because you did't have things planned out from the beginning, it doesn't mean that you can't make connections.

Keep in mind two major points:

-Indoctrination was a huge theme in ME1, arguably the biggest theme in the entire game. 
-Bioware has a documented history of excellent plot twists and ambitious storylines.

Put those two things together and I think they lend themselves quite well to the possibility that this was all planned. 

Modifié par HellishFiend, 09 juin 2012 - 05:04 .

[Arian Dynas]

Arashi08 wrote...

TJBartlemus wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

Arashi08 wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

Arashi08 wrote...


According to Retribution, Grayson was the first Cerberus subject implanted with reaper tech, which took place AFTER the events of ME2.  So it doesn't seem very likely that Shepard could have possibly been given Reaper tech, since Grayson was the basis for Cerberus' implantation of their own troops.

That does seem logical. Are we sure though that Grayson was the first one to be implanted with Reaper tech of any kind though, or just the nanides?

A good question, but I remember looking at the vids (or maybe a vid) on Chronos station mentioning how Grayson's implants had been instrumental in their work, yet they never mention in other footage about how much Shepard's implants have affected their research either. 

Still, this is a weak counterpoint.  A stronger one would likely be how TIM was adamant that Shepard be the same person she was before her death.  TIM was clear that he wanted THE Commander Shepard and not a tool that would follow orders.  Considering that it was highly likely that TIM and Cerberus knew about the Indoctrination effect Reaper tech had on people,  butbased on events like the Derelict Reaper, didn't understand how it worked I don't see him taking the chance that Shepard could become an indoctrinated servant, especially one that could end up working for the Reapers.

And of course there was the fact that Dr. Chakwas was able to scan your implants to check for anything nasty Cerberus left, I would assume she had an understanding of what Shepard's Implants consisted of.

I would indeed be inclined to think that since the writers went through so much trouble to stress that TIM wanted Shepard back as Shepard, and to point out that Shepard was clean, that it means something of significance. 

I wasnt necessarily making a counterpoint to your idea, just offering a question up to help explore it further, which seems to have worked. 

You know what I need cleared up is the question of did Shepard truely die? If he absolutly flatlined and brain dead then there is no salvaging of the body then. I like how shepard himself commented on Cronos station that he didn't know if he was a clone. If he was a clone it would make sense that you are able to change his appearance and abilities from 1 to 2. (For example a blond haired white guy to a brown hair african american. And all your friends recognize you though:huh:) So did someone get to his body in time and did something to it to preserve the brain?

I'm no doctor I think it depends on how long Shepard was dead.  The brain can survive seven minutes or so without oxygen before the brain cells die off.  Also  we do see Cerberus reaminating necrotic cells and tissue so if the brain cells could be revived then maybe the data stored within them can be saved as well.  It is also possible that they could use Shepard's genetic memory, though that does go into AC territory a little here.  still, it is Science-fiction so itisn't entirely grounded in our sense of reality. 

SB's agents got to Shepard's body and placed her in stasis, which Feron ( I think) claims puts Shepard in a state that is "Neither living or dead"

As for Shepard being a clone, im positive that isn't the case, since Liara knew that Shepard was the real Shepard the first time she touched her again.  I can't imagine, that a clone, even with all the same memories, could have an identical pattern that Liara could recognize as the real Shepard.

Uuuuuughhhh.... not this again....

As I have stated before,;

Actually, the Resurrection has more plausibility to it than one would think. Assuming Shepard's brain is held mostly intact by his helmet, which is both padded, formfitted and heatshielded with his suit's ablative armor, there we've avoided one of the major issues, concussion, it's lik dropping a raw egg packed in memory foam from the top of a building, the egg is capable of surviving intact and unscrambled provided something absorbs the shock of the impact, which considering what they are built for, I would expect hardsuit helmets to do.

Shepard would hit terminal velocity pretty quickly, at that point it wouldn't matter how high he fell from. Every bone in his body would be shattered, but if they had sufficent padding, he would still avoid becoming a stain on the landscape.


As for the rest of Shepard's body, they were capable of taking tissues, both original and cloned and replacing lost, badly damaged or destroyed organs, bones were either cloned or the original tissues repaired by bio-synthetic fusion, which we do today with surgical steel implants, surely they will have access to considerably harder materials in the the 23rd Century. 

Really the only true problems come down to brain damage from hypoxia.

Hypoxia kills brain cells quickly, raising the acidity of the brain's environment and cerebro-spinal fluid, as well as creating free radicals, which react violently to oxygen, causing reperfusion damage. So to deal with this, they would need to counter the Acidosis, counter the free radicals in the brain before re-introducing oxygen to avoid further damage, and then deal with dead braincells, possibly by cloning and (here's where the suspension of disbeleif comes in) "mapping" the synaptic pathways of the dead braincells to them. More than likey, they tried to maintain as much of Shepard's original tissues as they could, but parts needed to be replaced.

And don't think all of this is way out there, they're working on drugs right now to counter brain death by thinning the blood, anti-oxidant drugs, which are currently being tested and worked on even now, oh and one of the clinchers? There is a treatment for this whole thing even today, hypothermia can actually retard these processes to a considerable degree.

The fact is, no it's not exactly the hardest of science, but it DOES have a basis, unlike Synthesis.
 

[Arian Dynas]

HellishFiend wrote...

Arian Dynas wrote...

I have never belived that this whole thing was planned out beyond the most basic general idea...

But, as a writer, I can say this. Just because you did't have things planned out from the beginning, it doesn't mean that you can't make connections.

Keep in mind two major points:

-Indoctrination was a huge theme in ME1, arguably the biggest theme in the entire game. 
-Bioware has a documented history of excellent plot twists and ambitious storylines.

Put those two things together and I think they lend themselves quite well to the possibility that this was all planned. 

I say this was planned from late ME2 at the earliest, but that's opinion so yeah.

[HellishFiend]

Turbo_J wrote...

Sovereign's diatribe - best HFS moment of the game besides Eletania; which could have been Epic, but I think they wanted people to forget that... it even said as much in the last text box.

Funny, because I'd say that it's Sovereign's diatribe that has been largely (and mistakenly) forgotten. 

That's part of the "data" that points towards us making the right decision in the end, which boils down to not trusting Starbinger, and yet many things are forgotten at that critical moment. 

[Arian Dynas]

And also this;

Point the first; Shepard had kinetic barriers, to keep parts from being ripped off by in atomsphere collisions,

Point the second; Shepard had hardened, ablative, heat-shielded armor, designed to boil away on contact with extreme heat. It also likely has LIMITED rad protection, to allow EVA on ships and planets, it IS a space suit after all, just not a hazmat suit.

Point the third, Shepard was still badly burned and every blood vessel in his body was ruptured, in addition to death by hypoxia and explosive decompression (which, assuming his suit was pressurized, still could be avoided depending on how long he was exposed to vacuum, but either way, it was the rubber flexible seals that were ruptured, not the ablative armor plating itself.)

Point the fourth: The planet had less gravity and a thinner atmosphere than Earth, about 4/5ths on both counts.

Point the fifth, the only intact part of Shepard was his brain, which was saved from destruction and concussion by a memory foam padded helmet, which held up admiralbly well, and the fact that a present atmosphere meant Shepard was only accelerating to terminal velocity.

As for why the helmet got left behind, I am of the camp that says "Shadow Broker got there first, flunkies rip off helmet to get facial confirmation that 'Yes it is Shepard'."

Likely the only thing with ANY shape to it would be Shepard's skull, which would be badly fractured, necessitating reconstructive surgurey, with the brain likely being desisicated and freeze dried in it's own case, the cerebrospinal fluid long having drained out.

And also, we doo see a brief shot of Shepar'ds body in x-ray on the loading screen, every bone in his body shattered and fractured, some peices missing, I doubt he would have flown apart, his armor would have done a great deal to keep him together, though it likely would have ripped quite a few of his ligaments.

Really the biggest stumbling blocks Cerberus would have had to deal with would have been hypoxic brain injuries, possibily reperfusion injuries and possible concussions, which would have been lessened by his helmet.


In other words Shepard had the best possible suitation, and Shep STILL ended up deader than dead. And considering all the numbers being crunched add up, it proves the point that A) Bioware IS clever enough to do stuff like this, and . When it comes to physics, they know their ****.

Y'know in hindsight, it all sounds pretty gruesome really. Shepard would have been pretty well reduced to, I beleive the phrase was "tubes and meat".

[Arashi08]

Turbo_J wrote...

Arashi08 wrote...

TJBartlemus wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

Arashi08 wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

Arashi08 wrote...


According to Retribution, Grayson was the first Cerberus subject implanted with reaper tech, which took place AFTER the events of ME2.  So it doesn't seem very likely that Shepard could have possibly been given Reaper tech, since Grayson was the basis for Cerberus' implantation of their own troops.

That does seem logical. Are we sure though that Grayson was the first one to be implanted with Reaper tech of any kind though, or just the nanides?

A good question, but I remember looking at the vids (or maybe a vid) on Chronos station mentioning how Grayson's implants had been instrumental in their work, yet they never mention in other footage about how much Shepard's implants have affected their research either. 

Still, this is a weak counterpoint.  A stronger one would likely be how TIM was adamant that Shepard be the same person she was before her death.  TIM was clear that he wanted THE Commander Shepard and not a tool that would follow orders.  Considering that it was highly likely that TIM and Cerberus knew about the Indoctrination effect Reaper tech had on people,  butbased on events like the Derelict Reaper, didn't understand how it worked I don't see him taking the chance that Shepard could become an indoctrinated servant, especially one that could end up working for the Reapers.

And of course there was the fact that Dr. Chakwas was able to scan your implants to check for anything nasty Cerberus left, I would assume she had an understanding of what Shepard's Implants consisted of.

I would indeed be inclined to think that since the writers went through so much trouble to stress that TIM wanted Shepard back as Shepard, and to point out that Shepard was clean, that it means something of significance. 

I wasnt necessarily making a counterpoint to your idea, just offering a question up to help explore it further, which seems to have worked. 

You know what I need cleared up is the question of did Shepard truely die? If he absolutly flatlined and brain dead then there is no salvaging of the body then. I like how shepard himself commented on Cronos station that he didn't know if he was a clone. If he was a clone it would make sense that you are able to change his appearance and abilities from 1 to 2. (For example a blond haired white guy to a brown hair african american. And all your friends recognize you though:huh:) So did someone get to his body in time and did something to it to preserve the brain?

I'm no doctor I think it depends on how long Shepard was dead.  The brain can survive seven minutes or so without oxygen before the brain cells die off.  Also  we do see Cerberus reaminating necrotic cells and tissue so if the brain cells could be revived then maybe the data stored within them can be saved as well.  It is also possible that they could use Shepard's genetic memory, though that does go into AC territory a little here.  still, it is Science-fiction so itisn't entirely grounded in our sense of reality. 

SB's agents got to Shepard's body and placed her in stasis, which Feron ( I think) claims puts Shepard in a state that is "Neither living or dead"

As for Shepard being a clone, im positive that isn't the case, since Liara knew that Shepard was the real Shepard the first time she touched her again.  I can't imagine, that a clone, even with all the same memories, could have an identical pattern that Liara could recognize as the real Shepard.

Thanks about what you are saying here and apply it to Reaper goo.

Derivatives of Reaper tech were used to bring Shep back. If the tech can do that, what's to say that the individual intelligences of the populations reaped are not intact in at least the cognitive sense... maybe no emotional memory or personality or even life/soul as we define it, but never the less - the essence of it may remain.

But rhere isn't any in-game basis for the assumption that Shepard was brought back to life with Reaper tech/ or any analysis of said tech.  It isn't even implied within the series.  I don't remember anyone in the games even suggesting the possibility.  therefore it seems more likely they used their own technology and because it is science-fiction the player assumes the capabilities exist in the game's reality.

Also, based on the Reapers' actions and the dialogue we have had with certain ones, it seems more likely the Reapers use the "essence" of absorbed species to form a kind of Gestalt intellect, but obviously much more advanced.  clearly they aren't the same minds they were before they were harvested, or there would be dissent among the reapers.

I noticed the soul is referenced quite a bit in the games, especially in ME2 by Shepard, Thane, Legion and possibly others whom I can't remember .  it is almost like the soul is used to separate the will of organics from the will of Reapers, since the Reapers seem to believe that genetics are the most important aspect of organics.  I don't want to get too deep into the idea of a soul, as it will likely get us off topic, but it just seems to me  like BioWare has been introoducing the concept of the soul being what differentiates organics (and synthetics) from the Reapers since practically the start of the series.

[Arashi08]

[quote]Arian Dynas wrote...


Uuuuuughhhh.... not this again....

As I have stated before,;

[quote]
Actually, the Resurrection has more plausibility to it than one would think. Assuming Shepard's brain is held mostly intact by his helmet, which is both padded, formfitted and heatshielded with his suit's ablative armor, there we've avoided one of the major issues, concussion, it's lik dropping a raw egg packed in memory foam from the top of a building, the egg is capable of surviving intact and unscrambled provided something absorbs the shock of the impact, which considering what they are built for, I would expect hardsuit helmets to do.

Shepard would hit terminal velocity pretty quickly, at that point it wouldn't matter how high he fell from. Every bone in his body would be shattered, but if they had sufficent padding, he would still avoid becoming a stain on the landscape.


As for the rest of Shepard's body, they were capable of taking tissues, both original and cloned and replacing lost, badly damaged or destroyed organs, bones were either cloned or the original tissues repaired by bio-synthetic fusion, which we do today with surgical steel implants, surely they will have access to considerably harder materials in the the 23rd Century.

Really the only true problems come down to brain damage from hypoxia.

Hypoxia kills brain cells quickly, raising the acidity of the brain's environment and cerebro-spinal fluid, as well as creating free radicals, which react violently to oxygen, causing reperfusion damage. So to deal with this, they would need to counter the Acidosis, counter the free radicals in the brain before re-introducing oxygen to avoid further damage, and then deal with dead braincells, possibly by cloning and (here's where the suspension of disbeleif comes in) "mapping" the synaptic pathways of the dead braincells to them. More than likey, they tried to maintain as much of Shepard's original tissues as they could, but parts needed to be replaced.

And don't think all of this is way out there, they're working on drugs right now to counter brain death by thinning the blood, anti-oxidant drugs, which are currently being tested and worked on even now, oh and one of the clinchers? There is a treatment for this whole thing even today, hypothermia can actually retard these processes to a considerable degree.

The fact is, no it's not exactly the hardest of science, but it DOES have a basis, unlike Synthesis.

[/quote]

[/quote]


[/quote]
Very nice post.  I likely missed this one when I had to skip a few pages ahead, either on this thread or the last one lol.

Edited to give credit where it was due

Modifié par Arashi08, 09 juin 2012 - 05:21 .

[Arian Dynas]

Also, found some interesting things in the old thread. Apparently I forgot that Mike Gamble made the statment in his twitter feed a while back that "the EC is free... as long as you bought the game". No EC for used guys!

There's more fodder for my theory again...

Oh and also there was a mention in the artbook about TIM's indoctrinated design, as well as that of the monster he was supposed to turn into, saying that several were meant to reference Saren's design as well.

[UrgentArchengel]

@Balance
The whole frozen thing actually make me realize even more that my Shepard is a Captain America rip-off. Lol.

@Arian
If that is true, and it isn't actually free, then it would make sense. Yeah, it would have been awesome if TIM's final moments were like Saren's, including being a Super Husk. Lol.

[Arian Dynas]

UrgentArchengel wrote...

@Balance
The whole frozen thing actually make me realize even more that my Shepard is a Captain America rip-off. Lol.

@Arian
If that is true, and it isn't actually free, then it would make sense. Yeah, it would have been awesome if TIM's final moments were like Saren's, including being a Super Husk. Lol.

It's free if you bought and paid for the game. Hence my own theory that the ending content was always going to be free, unless you bought it used, in which case you shelled out money, just like Cerberus Network.

Not at all what I meant, it was referencing Saren, meaning he was clearly in their thoughts when they were making ME3, and the whole thing was supposed to be familiar.

[UrgentArchengel]

Arian Dynas wrote...

UrgentArchengel wrote...

@Balance
The whole frozen thing actually make me realize even more that my Shepard is a Captain America rip-off. Lol.

@Arian
If that is true, and it isn't actually free, then it would make sense. Yeah, it would have been awesome if TIM's final moments were like Saren's, including being a Super Husk. Lol.

It's free if you bought and paid for the game. Hence my own theory that the ending content was always going to be free, unless you bought it used, in which case you shelled out money, just like Cerberus Network.

Not at all what I meant, it was referencing Saren, meaning he was clearly in their thoughts when they were making ME3, and the whole thing was supposed to be familiar.

That's kinda what I meant.  So bad at displaying my thoughts.  

[gunslinger_ruiz]

Someone brought this up a few pages back but thought I'd bring it back up and try to elaborate.

We're already wary of the Catalyst/Starbringer and his true motives, but adding a little more to the reasons not to trust him: he states that he controls the Reapers, they're his solution etc. Now if he controls them, and the Citadel is his home, why couldn't he activate the Citadel's mass relay and flood the place with Reapers from ME1 or even 2 or 3 for that matter, why have Sovereign go through all the trouble? In ME1 we find out from Vigil (as well as that one Salarian and his scan the keepers side mission) that the Keepers are the ones who send the signal to activate the Citadel's trap relay for the Reapers to poor in and begin their harvest.

This fact is supported by numerous solid events: the surviving Prothean's on Ilos manage to block the Keeper's signal which delays our cycle's harvest, the need for Sovereign to interface with the Citadel directly as a direct result of the previous statement, and you also get a mail in ME2 from the earlier mentioned Salarian from the "scan the keepers" side quest concerning the signal the Keepers were meant to send.

So the big question is; IF the Catalyst controls the Reapers and the Citadel why doesn't it just send the signal to dark space, and if he could what is the purpose of the Keepers sending that signal at all?

Is this potential evidence to further refute the face-value nature of the Catalyst/Starbinger? Maybe, I believe so, but it's up to you.

Modifié par gunslinger_ruiz, 09 juin 2012 - 06:07 .

[balance5050]

UrgentArchengel wrote...

@Balance
The whole frozen thing actually make me realize even more that my Shepard is a Captain America rip-off. Lol.

@Arian
If that is true, and it isn't actually free, then it would make sense. Yeah, it would have been awesome if TIM's final moments were like Saren's, including being a Super Husk. Lol.

Ha! Paragon Shep and Cap do kinda act similar is some ways....

Modifié par balance5050, 09 juin 2012 - 06:13 .

[Starbuck8]

Arashi08 wrote...

Turbo_J wrote...

Arashi08 wrote...

TJBartlemus wrote...

You know what I need cleared up is the question of did Shepard truely die? If he absolutly flatlined and brain dead then there is no salvaging of the body then. I like how shepard himself commented on Cronos station that he didn't know if he was a clone. If he was a clone it would make sense that you are able to change his appearance and abilities from 1 to 2. (For example a blond haired white guy to a brown hair african american. And all your friends recognize you though:huh:) So did someone get to his body in time and did something to it to preserve the brain?

I'm no doctor I think it depends on how long Shepard was dead.  The brain can survive seven minutes or so without oxygen before the brain cells die off.  Also  we do see Cerberus reaminating necrotic cells and tissue so if the brain cells could be revived then maybe the data stored within them can be saved as well.  It is also possible that they could use Shepard's genetic memory, though that does go into AC territory a little here.  still, it is Science-fiction so itisn't entirely grounded in our sense of reality. 

SB's agents got to Shepard's body and placed her in stasis, which Feron ( I think) claims puts Shepard in a state that is "Neither living or dead"

As for Shepard being a clone, im positive that isn't the case, since Liara knew that Shepard was the real Shepard the first time she touched her again.  I can't imagine, that a clone, even with all the same memories, could have an identical pattern that Liara could recognize as the real Shepard.

Thanks about what you are saying here and apply it to Reaper goo.

Derivatives of Reaper tech were used to bring Shep back. If the tech can do that, what's to say that the individual intelligences of the populations reaped are not intact in at least the cognitive sense... maybe no emotional memory or personality or even life/soul as we define it, but never the less - the essence of it may remain.

But rhere isn't any in-game basis for the assumption that Shepard was brought back to life with Reaper tech/ or any analysis of said tech.  It isn't even implied within the series.  I don't remember anyone in the games even suggesting the possibility.  therefore it seems more likely they used their own technology and because it is science-fiction the player assumes the capabilities exist in the game's reality.

Also, based on the Reapers' actions and the dialogue we have had with certain ones, it seems more likely the Reapers use the "essence" of absorbed species to form a kind of Gestalt intellect, but obviously much more advanced.  clearly they aren't the same minds they were before they were harvested, or there would be dissent among the reapers.

I noticed the soul is referenced quite a bit in the games, especially in ME2 by Shepard, Thane, Legion and possibly others whom I can't remember .  it is almost like the soul is used to separate the will of organics from the will of Reapers, since the Reapers seem to believe that genetics are the most important aspect of organics.  I don't want to get too deep into the idea of a soul, as it will likely get us off topic, but it just seems to me  like BioWare has been introoducing the concept of the soul being what differentiates organics (and synthetics) from the Reapers since practically the start of the series.

Well since the thread is going at a moderate pace tonight, I'll contribute a small thought to the discussion about using gooified people to create a reaper and, maybe indirectly to the resurrecting Shep discussion. People seem to get hung up on how using DNA/goo from people could translate into creating an intelligence in a reaper. Well, at least in the Mass Effect universe, there seems to be more than just the basic building blocks of life in a person's DNA or residue. Javik makes this clear when he can clearly read aspecs of a person's personality or life story just from being in the same room that they were in months ago. So I suppose there is precedent for transferring feelings, personality, thoughts from a person beyond what exists only within that person's brain. I forget what Javik says specifically about it, but I'm sure you'll remember from first bringing Javik aboard the Normandy.

Edit: Snipped some of the quotes that didn't pertain to my post.

Modifié par Starbuck8, 09 juin 2012 - 06:29 .

[Starbuck8]

I don't think this was already linked, so if anyone is bored/interested in a moderate anti-IT explanation or feels like debating, here: social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/12488167