55528 réponses à ce sujet

[Dwailing]

 OK, I had an idea last night in the shower around 12:30 a.m. so it's a little crazy, but I think it's worth sharing.  We've all talked about how the gun represents Shepard's willpower and Anderson represents the unindoctrinated section of Shepard's mind.  So, I was thinking last night about this, and I realized that it's possible that the scene where we see Anderson holding the gun has meaning as well.  (Just as a heads up, you guys should know by now that I'm of the opinion that the hallucination started right after the crash.  Also, I'm going to go with an idea that popped up earlier that the beams being fired by Harbinger represent his attempts to invade Shep's mind.)  Now, we first see the gun in Anderson's hand.  To me, this could represent that the unindoctrinated part of Shepard's mind is able to fight back against indoctrination.  It's armed and in control.  Then, the beam comes, and "Shepard" gets knocked out and Anderson disappears.  When he comes to, he finds the gun, his willpower.  So now, I'm going to share the REALLY crazy idea.  What if, Casey Hudson was being quite literal about the player being Shep?  Meaning, what if the Shepard that we control in the end sequence is LITERALLY a representation of the player.  We have Shepard's willpower litterally in our hands, and it's up to us what we do with it.  Jump to the end, now, you, the player, are completely in control.  You have to decide what to do with Shepard's willpower.  Do you throw it away by choosing Control or Synthesis.  Or do you use it to stay strong, stick to Shepard's beliefs, and win this battle?  I think this could be an explanation for the presence of an actual representation of Shepard.  I mean, think about it.  Anderson is the unindoctrinated part of Shep's mind.  TIM is the representation of the indoctrinated part of Shep's mind.  What could the actual Shepard that we see and control be?  A representation of the player.  Yeah, I know it's kind of crazy, but I figured it wouldn't hurt to share.

Edit: Wow, I think I actually made a wall of text.  Wasn't sure I'd ever make one of those.  Glad I was wrong.

Modifié par Dwailing, 09 juin 2012 - 01:38 .

[DJBare]

paxxton wrote...

Corik wrote...

Anyone else is preparing to receive a face-value EC? While I continue to support IT and I will seriously make IT as my personal canon... I think it's actually a good idea to be prepared for everything. Currently, counting evidence, twitter jokes and silence, I think IT has a 85% chance of being true and intended. But... prepare for the worst and hope for the best

I could live with the EC that doesn't reveal what happened after the breath if BioWare would announce that the story continues in Mass Effect 4. 

It would have to be something truly outstanding and plot hole filling to be taken at face value, but not sure I'd admit to be wrong about I.T since the clues are not made up, they exist within the game itself, I'd be more inclined to believe that in the end Bioware could not pull it off due to limitations.

[Eryri]

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

Eryri wrote...

@Bigstig

I noticed last night that Raistin Majare 1992 came up with some intelligent points against the idea that Harbinger would allow the reapers to become independent if he was incapacitated:

-----------------
Raistin Majare 1992 

I never said the Crucible was not convenient, but Harbinger beeing some sort of control unit for the collective Reaper fleet is in my opinion pushing the convenience factor. If it was the case one would think Harbinger would have several fail saves built in so taht in case he is destroyed evrything he did does noty fall to pieces.

Like him transferring permanently to another Reaper if destroyed or simply back up signals in certain reaper for keeping the fleet on purpose.

And no we dont know Crucible or the Catalyst does, but that is why i still consider it a more logical way to do it. Even if it is trap, it can be turned to and advantage.

-----------

I've been mulling this over and I think I've come up with some answers to this. For one he may not be able to transfer his conciousness to another reaper for the same reason that EDI can't transfer to another Blue Box. Subtle differences in the hardware would mean that it would only be a bad copy of Harbinger, with a different personality, not the original.

As to why he wouldn't prevent the Reapers from becoming independent on his death - that might be due to arrogance or hubris - the thought that he might be defeated just hasn't occurred to him.

Or he might regard the other Reapers as just a means to an end - being his private army, or to augment his own processing power with theirs. If he's a selfish, vain despot he wouldn't really care if the other reapers die or the cycle falls apart after his death, because it would no longer matter to him.

Interesting post, but if Harbinger is so arrogant (more so than your average Reaper seems to be) then what is his interest in Shepard?

The logical conclusion to Harbingers interest is that Shepard is their greatest threat in this cycle, the single human who continues to defy them. If he truly is so arrogant as to consider himself then he would probably not concern himself with a single "insect" in such a way as he has done with Shepard.

No I think despite all that Harbinger says that he on some level realizes Shepard is a threat.

Off course he might also see Shepard as very promising component for a new Reaper, but if truly the Reapers are simply his private army only meant to serve why would he concern himself with the individual parts?

Harbingers interest in Shepard ultimately shows that he is not so "above everything else" as to ignore the little things, the minor possibilities.

I wont refute the possibility of some kind of programming or other from of control uniting the Reapers towards soem singular goal, but I dont think it has  single origin point either and is more a result of the way a Reaper is made than a control signal enacted later.

After all if you build it, why not make sure it is follows your goals from the very core and not trhough soem flimsy way such as a signal. 

Hi Raistin. Thanks for commenting on my post. It's good to have someone point out the plot holes. It's a pity you couldn't be there to do that for the team that wrote the ending. 

I realise I'm reaching a bit here - but how about there's something about Shepard's mind that acts as a virus, that undoes the deep level programming that you suggest Harbinger put into all the other reapers to prevent their rebellion?
We know Shepard is special as he was strong willed enough to survive the Prothean Beacon. Perhaps if he defeats Harbinger in the kind of "Prof. Xavier Vs Shadow King" psychic boss battle that I'd like to see, this highly independent, willful essence of Shepard is distributed to the other Reapers, rewriting the deep code that Harbinger would have thought was fool proof?

I know, I know, - it's getting a bit far fetched. I just think in practical story telling terms, its easier for Bioware to have a single, central baddy, whose defeat brings the story to a nice, tidy resolution. 

Modifié par Eryri, 09 juin 2012 - 02:56 .

[UrgentArchengel]

Yeah, I definitely expect EC at SDCC. Gamble basically states this on his twitter...well, not really, but it's obvious since they are only working on EC. I wouldn't mind EC bring a lead-in to ME4, especially with IT.

[Eryri]

paxxton wrote...

Eryri wrote...

Or he might regard the other Reapers as just a means to an end - being his private army, or to augment his own processing power with theirs. If he's a selfish, vain despot he wouldn't really care if the other reapers die or the cycle falls apart after his death, because it would no longer matter to him.

This last paragraph gave me an idea that Harbinger might send a last order to all the Reapers to auto-destruct. But that would be too organic of him. AIs don't have such twisted needs. I prefer the possibility that he transfers his "consciousness" to another Reaper shell. Or just deactivates.

Or it can use the energy of a star to bend timespace and open a wormhole that would suck everything and then collapse trapping everything in another dimension. Such an escape route in case he's in danger.

That's a good idea. We could then have a race against time in the final segment of the game where Shepard has to invade Harbinger's corpse to find and deactivate some sort of black-hole bomb before it destroys the Earth.

Perhaps if he does transfer his conciousness to a back up it would be located safely in dark space. Ending the threat for know, but leaving open the possibility for "Harbinger 2 - The Revenge!" in ME4.

[Big G13]

Dwailing wrote...

 OK, I had an idea last night in the shower around 12:30 a.m. so it's a little crazy, but I think it's worth sharing.  We've all talked about how the gun represents Shepard's willpower and Anderson represents the unindoctrinated section of Shepard's mind.  So, I was thinking last night about this, and I realized that it's possible that the scene where we see Anderson holding the gun has meaning as well.  (Just as a heads up, you guys should know by now that I'm of the opinion that the hallucination started right after the crash.  Also, I'm going to go with an idea that popped up earlier that the beams being fired by Harbinger represent his attempts to invade Shep's mind.)  Now, we first see the gun in Anderson's hand.  To me, this could represent that the unindoctrinated part of Shepard's mind is able to fight back against indoctrination.  It's armed and in control.  Then, the beam comes, and "Shepard" gets knocked out and Anderson disappears.  When he comes to, he finds the gun, his willpower.  So now, I'm going to share the REALLY crazy idea.  What if, Casey Hudson was being quite literal about the player being Shep?  Meaning, what if the Shepard that we control in the end sequence is LITERALLY a representation of the player.  We have Shepard's willpower litterally in our hands, and it's up to us what we do with it.  Jump to the end, now, you, the player, are completely in control.  You have to decide what to do with Shepard's willpower.  Do you throw it away by choosing Control or Synthesis.  Or do you use it to stay strong, stick to Shepard's beliefs, and win this battle?  I think this could be an explanation for the presence of an actual representation of Shepard.  I mean, think about it.  Anderson is the unindoctrinated part of Shep's mind.  TIM is the representation of the indoctrinated part of Shep's mind.  What could the actual Shepard that we see and control be?  A representation of the player.  Yeah, I know it's kind of crazy, but I figured it wouldn't hurt to share.

Edit: Wow, I think I actually made a wall of text.  Wasn't sure I'd ever make one of those.  Glad I was wrong.

You shower? 

[Stigweird85]

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

Eryri wrote...

@Bigstig

I noticed last night that Raistin Majare 1992 came up with some intelligent points against the idea that Harbinger would allow the reapers to become independent if he was incapacitated:

-----------------
Raistin Majare 1992 

I never said the Crucible was not convenient, but Harbinger beeing some sort of control unit for the collective Reaper fleet is in my opinion pushing the convenience factor. If it was the case one would think Harbinger would have several fail saves built in so taht in case he is destroyed evrything he did does noty fall to pieces.

Like him transferring permanently to another Reaper if destroyed or simply back up signals in certain reaper for keeping the fleet on purpose.

And no we dont know Crucible or the Catalyst does, but that is why i still consider it a more logical way to do it. Even if it is trap, it can be turned to and advantage.

-----------

I've been mulling this over and I think I've come up with some answers to this. For one he may not be able to transfer his conciousness to another reaper for the same reason that EDI can't transfer to another Blue Box. Subtle differences in the hardware would mean that it would only be a bad copy of Harbinger, with a different personality, not the original.

As to why he wouldn't prevent the Reapers from becoming independent on his death - that might be due to arrogance or hubris - the thought that he might be defeated just hasn't occurred to him.

Or he might regard the other Reapers as just a means to an end - being his private army, or to augment his own processing power with theirs. If he's a selfish, vain despot he wouldn't really care if the other reapers die or the cycle falls apart after his death, because it would no longer matter to him.

Interesting post, but if Harbinger is so arrogant (more so than your average Reaper seems to be) then what is his interest in Shepard?

The logical conclusion to Harbingers interest is that Shepard is their greatest threat in this cycle, the single human who continues to defy them. If he truly is so arrogant as to consider himself then he would probably not concern himself with a single "insect" in such a way as he has done with Shepard.

No I think despite all that Harbinger says that he on some level realizes Shepard is a threat.

Off course he might also see Shepard as very promising component for a new Reaper, but if truly the Reapers are simply his private army only meant to serve why would he concern himself with the individual parts?

Harbingers interest in Shepard ultimately shows that he is not so "above everything else" as to ignore the little things, the minor possibilities.

I wont refute the possibility of some kind of programming or other from of control uniting the Reapers towards soem singular goal, but I dont think it has  single origin point either and is more a result of the way a Reaper is made than a control signal enacted later.

After all if you build it, why not make sure it is follows your goals from the very core and not trhough soem flimsy way such as a signal. 

The method of control could be anything, the important thing is the logic contradiction that it creates. Starbringer is quite clear that the created will always rebel against the created. Why is he immune to this so called inevitability? Unless (what has been discussed) he is full of nonsense.

Shepard is a threat to the Reapers he is the only human to take one down.  Harbringer may wish to study Shepard to see what makes him/her to see what makes him tick. Same way we do whenever we find a new species of animal we try to capture it to study it.

[MaximizedAction]

Dwailing wrote...

 OK, I had an idea last night in the shower around 12:30 a.m. so it's a little crazy, but I think it's worth sharing.  We've all talked about how the gun represents Shepard's willpower and Anderson represents the unindoctrinated section of Shepard's mind.  So, I was thinking last night about this, and I realized that it's possible that the scene where we see Anderson holding the gun has meaning as well.  (Just as a heads up, you guys should know by now that I'm of the opinion that the hallucination started right after the crash.  Also, I'm going to go with an idea that popped up earlier that the beams being fired by Harbinger represent his attempts to invade Shep's mind.)  Now, we first see the gun in Anderson's hand.  To me, this could represent that the unindoctrinated part of Shepard's mind is able to fight back against indoctrination.  It's armed and in control.  Then, the beam comes, and "Shepard" gets knocked out and Anderson disappears.  When he comes to, he finds the gun, his willpower.  So now, I'm going to share the REALLY crazy idea.  What if, Casey Hudson was being quite literal about the player being Shep?  Meaning, what if the Shepard that we control in the end sequence is LITERALLY a representation of the player.  We have Shepard's willpower litterally in our hands, and it's up to us what we do with it.  Jump to the end, now, you, the player, are completely in control.  You have to decide what to do with Shepard's willpower.  Do you throw it away by choosing Control or Synthesis.  Or do you use it to stay strong, stick to Shepard's beliefs, and win this battle?  I think this could be an explanation for the presence of an actual representation of Shepard.  I mean, think about it.  Anderson is the unindoctrinated part of Shep's mind.  TIM is the representation of the indoctrinated part of Shep's mind.  What could the actual Shepard that we see and control be?  A representation of the player.  Yeah, I know it's kind of crazy, but I figured it wouldn't hurt to share.

Just because it's you, I'll accept this return-less text.

Good idea! That also reminded me how all the time we are in control of Shepard after the laser hit is WITH the gun in Shepard's hand: When transported up to the Citadel, we only gain control after Shepard found the gun on the floor AND EXACTLY when Anderson says the line, that he himself has gotta keep moving.

Regarding Harbinger, you brought up an intersting point. We see Harbinger shooting his laser from his 'eyes', while the Destroyers have a special gun for that. Did we ever see a Reaper shooting multiple laser beams simultaniously? Or from the eyes? If not, then this can very well be a symbolism for Harbinger indoctrinating everyone around Shepard. In that sense, it also explains that we don't see the final laser shot hitting Shepard, but only coming close to him, aka 'he's not yet indoctrinated but about to'.

Fast forward to the choices:
In Control, after Shepard throws away the gun, we start hearing the train sounds. And as someone posted, within dreams this is symbolism for 'losing control'.
Synthesis however, without any foreshadowing sounds or visuals, remains the odd man out. The visual representation of the choice, however, as I only recently noticed, is unique, and I don't mean the green. But I guess most of you already noticed that.
In Destroy, as you wrote, we keep our gun to the last second. Here it shifts from player being in control, to Shepard being in control.

Modifié par MaximizedAction, 09 juin 2012 - 01:54 .

[Dwailing]

Really, Big? THAT'S what you took from that?

[Stigweird85]

paxxton wrote...

Eryri wrote...

@Bigstig

I noticed last night that Raistin Majare 1992 came up with some intelligent points against the idea that Harbinger would allow the reapers to become independent if he was incapacitated:

-----------------
Raistin Majare 1992 

I never said the Crucible was not convenient, but Harbinger beeing some sort of control unit for the collective Reaper fleet is in my opinion pushing the convenience factor. If it was the case one would think Harbinger would have several fail saves built in so taht in case he is destroyed evrything he did does noty fall to pieces.

Like him transferring permanently to another Reaper if destroyed or simply back up signals in certain reaper for keeping the fleet on purpose.

And no we dont know Crucible or the Catalyst does, but that is why i still consider it a more logical way to do it. Even if it is trap, it can be turned to and advantage.

-----------

I've been mulling this over and I think I've come up with some answers to this. For one he may not be able to transfer his conciousness to another reaper for the same reason that EDI can't transfer to another Blue Box. Subtle differences in the hardware would mean that it would only be a bad copy of Harbinger, with a different personality, not the original.

As to why he wouldn't prevent the Reapers from becoming independent on his death - that might be due to arrogance or hubris - the thought that he might be defeated just hasn't occurred to him.

Or he might regard the other Reapers as just a means to an end - being his private army, or to augment his own processing power with theirs. If he's a selfish, vain despot he wouldn't really care if the other reapers die or the cycle falls apart after his death, because it would no longer matter to him.

This last paragraph gave me an idea that Harbinger might send a last order to all the Reapers to auto-destruct. But that would be too organic of him. AIs don't have such twisted needs. I prefer the possibility that he transfers his "consciousness" to another Reaper shell. Or just deactivates.

Or it can use the energy of a star to bend timespace and open a wormhole that would suck everything and then collapse trapping everything in another dimension. Such an escape route in case he's in danger.

Hmm Auto destruct would allow victory but it's too much like the magic Reaper off button. While it would be better than the current endings it would be a let down.

I would much rather see Harbringer go down and then the other Reapers either fight for domination of after seeing that they can be defeated either go into Retreat or become independant and no longer see the cycle as their only purpose

[Big G13]

Dwailing wrote...

Really, Big? THAT'S what you took from that?

You know I always read all your stuff. I'm just too to tired to respond to your thoughts with the energy they deserve. I agree with MaximizedAction and would only add that imo IDT is the only thing that makes sense of the endings and Indoctrinating the player is the only thing that makes sense of this PR fiasco we've seen in RL.
p.s.  PREDIFEXATOR ........... still funny.

[Stigweird85]

Eryri wrote...

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

Eryri wrote...

@Bigstig

I noticed last night that Raistin Majare 1992 came up with some intelligent points against the idea that Harbinger would allow the reapers to become independent if he was incapacitated:

-----------------
Raistin Majare 1992 

I never said the Crucible was not convenient, but Harbinger beeing some sort of control unit for the collective Reaper fleet is in my opinion pushing the convenience factor. If it was the case one would think Harbinger would have several fail saves built in so taht in case he is destroyed evrything he did does noty fall to pieces.

Like him transferring permanently to another Reaper if destroyed or simply back up signals in certain reaper for keeping the fleet on purpose.

And no we dont know Crucible or the Catalyst does, but that is why i still consider it a more logical way to do it. Even if it is trap, it can be turned to and advantage.

-----------

I've been mulling this over and I think I've come up with some answers to this. For one he may not be able to transfer his conciousness to another reaper for the same reason that EDI can't transfer to another Blue Box. Subtle differences in the hardware would mean that it would only be a bad copy of Harbinger, with a different personality, not the original.

As to why he wouldn't prevent the Reapers from becoming independent on his death - that might be due to arrogance or hubris - the thought that he might be defeated just hasn't occurred to him.

Or he might regard the other Reapers as just a means to an end - being his private army, or to augment his own processing power with theirs. If he's a selfish, vain despot he wouldn't really care if the other reapers die or the cycle falls apart after his death, because it would no longer matter to him.

Interesting post, but if Harbinger is so arrogant (more so than your average Reaper seems to be) then what is his interest in Shepard?

The logical conclusion to Harbingers interest is that Shepard is their greatest threat in this cycle, the single human who continues to defy them. If he truly is so arrogant as to consider himself then he would probably not concern himself with a single "insect" in such a way as he has done with Shepard.

No I think despite all that Harbinger says that he on some level realizes Shepard is a threat.

Off course he might also see Shepard as very promising component for a new Reaper, but if truly the Reapers are simply his private army only meant to serve why would he concern himself with the individual parts?

Harbingers interest in Shepard ultimately shows that he is not so "above everything else" as to ignore the little things, the minor possibilities.

I wont refute the possibility of some kind of programming or other from of control uniting the Reapers towards soem singular goal, but I dont think it has  single origin point either and is more a result of the way a Reaper is made than a control signal enacted later.

After all if you build it, why not make sure it is follows your goals from the very core and not trhough soem flimsy way such as a signal. 

Hi Raistin. Thanks for commenting on my post. It's good to have someone point out the plot holes. It's a pity you couldn't be there to do that for the team that wrote the ending? 

I realise I'm reaching a bit here - but how about there's something about Shepard's mind that acts as a virus, that undoes the deep level programming that you suggest Harbinger put into all the other reapers to prevent their rebellion?
We know Shepard is special as he was strong willed enough to survive the Prothean Beacon. Perhaps if he defeats Harbinger in the kind of "Prof. Xavier Vs Shadow King" psychic boss battle that I'd like to see, this highly independent, willful essence of Shepard is distributed to the other Reapers, rewriting the deep code that Harbinger would have thought was fool proof?

I know, I know, - it's getting a bit far fetched. I just think in practical story telling terms, its easier for Bioware to have a single, central baddy, whose defeat brings the story to a nice, tidy resolution. 

An interesting idea, it also mirrors Legion and his final action although it verges dangerously on the Shepard being Space Jesus territory. Which to me is a horrible ending

[Stigweird85]

Dwailing wrote...

snip

Edit: Wow, I think I actually made a wall of text.  Wasn't sure I'd ever make one of those.  Glad I was wrong.

An interesting idea, if the citadel in an illusion  and everything represents something what does Shepard represent...I've never really thought of it. I've always assumed Shepard is Shepard but your explaination is possible

[Big G13]

bigstig wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

snip

Edit: Wow, I think I actually made a wall of text.  Wasn't sure I'd ever make one of those.  Glad I was wrong.

An interesting idea, if the citadel in an illusion  and everything represents something what does Shepard represent...I've never really thought of it. I've always assumed Shepard is Shepard but your explaination is possible

Also, the dreams give credence to this. In the last dream, Shepard sees Shepard. So, in the hallucination are we seeing Shepard or are we seeing ourselves?

[Dwailing]

Big G13 wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

Really, Big? THAT'S what you took from that?

You know I always read all your stuff. I'm just too to tired to respond to your thoughts with the energy they deserve. I agree with MaximizedAction and would only add that imo IDT is the only thing that makes sense of the endings and Indoctrinating the player is the only thing that makes sense of this PR fiasco we've seen in RL.
p.s.  PREDIFEXATOR ........... still funny.

Wow, you are tired, you forgot the Carni part of Carnipredifexator. On the topic of my idea, I understand completely.

[Stigweird85]

I always found that last dream odd...the boy represents those who cannot be saved(or something like that) and in the final dream a Shepard embrases the emobodiment of those who can't be saved before burning up?

Yup that means nothing no symbology there at all.

[MaximizedAction]

Big G13 wrote...

bigstig wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

snip

Edit: Wow, I think I actually made a wall of text.  Wasn't sure I'd ever make one of those.  Glad I was wrong.

An interesting idea, if the citadel in an illusion  and everything represents something what does Shepard represent...I've never really thought of it. I've always assumed Shepard is Shepard but your explaination is possible

Also, the dreams give credence to this. In the last dream, Shepard sees Shepard. So, in the hallucination are we seeing Shepard or are we seeing ourselves?

Yeah, that part I can't recall reading an interpretation about. I don't think it's us the players, because we are never really that convinced about the sadness of this loss and as some users wrote, BioWare probably knows that that kid's death isn't really THAT tragic to us.
Besides, this is the third dream. Either we felt for the boy only for the first hours or we moved on. That's getting over loss works.

So I don't think the oddly smiling Shepard is the player.

EDIT: Maybe it's the foreshadowing of Synthesis?

Modifié par MaximizedAction, 09 juin 2012 - 02:30 .

[paxxton]

Dwailing wrote...

 OK, I had an idea last night in the shower around 12:30 a.m. so it's a little crazy, but I think it's worth sharing.  We've all talked about how the gun represents Shepard's willpower and Anderson represents the unindoctrinated section of Shepard's mind.  So, I was thinking last night about this, and I realized that it's possible that the scene where we see Anderson holding the gun has meaning as well.  (Just as a heads up, you guys should know by now that I'm of the opinion that the hallucination started right after the crash.  Also, I'm going to go with an idea that popped up earlier that the beams being fired by Harbinger represent his attempts to invade Shep's mind.)  Now, we first see the gun in Anderson's hand.  To me, this could represent that the unindoctrinated part of Shepard's mind is able to fight back against indoctrination.  It's armed and in control.  Then, the beam comes, and "Shepard" gets knocked out and Anderson disappears.  When he comes to, he finds the gun, his willpower.  So now, I'm going to share the REALLY crazy idea.  What if, Casey Hudson was being quite literal about the player being Shep?  Meaning, what if the Shepard that we control in the end sequence is LITERALLY a representation of the player.  We have Shepard's willpower litterally in our hands, and it's up to us what we do with it.  Jump to the end, now, you, the player, are completely in control.  You have to decide what to do with Shepard's willpower.  Do you throw it away by choosing Control or Synthesis.  Or do you use it to stay strong, stick to Shepard's beliefs, and win this battle?  I think this could be an explanation for the presence of an actual representation of Shepard.  I mean, think about it.  Anderson is the unindoctrinated part of Shep's mind.  TIM is the representation of the indoctrinated part of Shep's mind.  What could the actual Shepard that we see and control be?  A representation of the player.  Yeah, I know it's kind of crazy, but I figured it wouldn't hurt to share.

Edit: Wow, I think I actually made a wall of text.  Wasn't sure I'd ever make one of those.  Glad I was wrong.

Did you think along these lines:

paxxton wrote...
Yes, the key word here is "imagine". This is the convergence I talk about in the OP. Shepard is visualizing the indoctrination medium as nanides floating in the air. Shepard that can be seen in that scene is not the Shepard you play during the game. It's his will's avatar. That avatar is influenced by indoctrination (that influence is represented by the inhalation of nanides). The talk itself doesn't serve the purpose of indoctrination because every answer conveys resistance (you can't choose to agree with TIM, you can only make the indoctrination attempt last longer). The only way to succumb to indoctrination is through lack of action (Shepard's will is caught off guard, not accept TIM's viewpoint) when TIM shoots "Anderson" or Shepard's will avatar.

It's from the UNIT thread.

Modifié par paxxton, 09 juin 2012 - 02:28 .

[Salient Archer]

Man, I can't seem to get a game of MP tonight without someone asking me about my thoughts on the end of the game. Has something stirred up the hornets nest that I'm unaware of?

Also seems a fair few plays quite strongly disagree with ITD (for no apparent reason) and suddenly act like I'm wearing a tight-fitting tinfoil hat when I inform them I'm pro-ITD. Nonetheless I assert my authority by taking top position by about 80,000+ points. *gloat-gloat-gloat*

Modifié par Salient Archer, 09 juin 2012 - 02:29 .

[Helios969]

As a newly converted IDT supporter I had a consideration.  Perhaps it's been brought up and/or addressed previously.

Is the reason so much effort is being exhausted by Harbinger to indoctrinate Shep to put his/her consciousness in control of the human reaper form we saw in ME2?  Shep is humanities' ultimate soldier, he/she would make for a formidable Reaper.

[Turbo_J]

Arian Dynas wrote...

Overload_C14 wrote...

Anyone notice on how the maps have started closing in on the story line?
Condor, Jade, Goddess and now on earth? Seems to be following the way the story went and if this leak can be trusted Earth maps will be coming out. Grouped together with the information of the EC with it I feel something fishy here... As soon as these maps come out (Assuming its not fake) we need to give this a good looking over, I think there may be some clues to help prove some of our points in multiplayer.

If you want, I can send you a link to the theory I had on this a while back.

Oh and I expect there to be one more DLC before Earth AND the EC. Some Chronus Station ones.

And it just occured to me, what if summer was the intended date for the proposed IT DLC and the EC is just their way of making us wait for it?

I know I'm late to the party, but I suspected this long ago and got so badly virbally abused I dropped it. The rage was still to fresh I suppose.

Modifié par Turbo_J, 09 juin 2012 - 02:37 .

[Stigweird85]

Salient Archer wrote...

Man, I can't seem to get a game of MP tonight without someone asking me about my thoughts on the end of the game. Has something stirred up the hornets nest that I'm unaware of?

Also seems a fair few plays quite strongly disagree with ITD (for no apparent reason) and suddenly act like I'm wearing a tight-fitting tinfoil hat when I inform them I'm pro-ITD. Nonetheless I assert my authority by taking top position by about 80,000+ points. *gloat-gloat-gloat*

Speaking as someone on the lower end of the leaderboard.

If you doing that on Gold then good job, on Bronze and to a lesser extent silver is a different story. Personally I loathe it when I see someone on Bronze/silver who has enough equipment and stat skills to beat an entire round themselves. 

[Turbo_J]

Helios969 wrote...

As a newly converted IDT supporter I had a consideration.  Perhaps it's been brought up and/or addressed previously.

Is the reason so much effort is being exhausted by Harbinger to indoctrinate Shep to put his/her consciousness in control of the human reaper form we saw in ME2?  Shep is humanities' ultimate soldier, he/she would make for a formidable Reaper.

I've suspected that there is some sort of dominant portion of the Reaper that controls all the other programs inside it... or 'shackles' them. This would make sense.

[Turbo_J]

bigstig wrote...

I always found that last dream odd...the boy represents those who cannot be saved(or something like that) and in the final dream a Shepard embrases the emobodiment of those who can't be saved before burning up?

Yup that means nothing no symbology there at all.

Not sure if you being sarcastic, but if you are, yeah it's hard to fathom that people can't decipher the warning in that dream.

[D.Sharrah]

OK crazy theory incoming...don't say that you weren't warned.
I have been reading through some of the posts over the last couple of days and something slowly has been formulating in my head.  This theory ties the events of ME 2, TIM, the Collector's, Harbinger and of course Shepard into one tight, convulted knot.  Also, this theory makes some assumptions based on the lore - so let's start with those.
Assumptions

1.  TIM having been hit by a wave from a Reaper device, has been slowly succumbing to the affects of Indoctrination.  And while his mind is still his own, it is not w/o Reaper influence (even in ME 2).

2.  Harbinger is very likely to be ReaperBieber the Starbinger.  And therefore is aware of the circular logic that is "The created will always rebel against their creators".

3.  Harbinger being the leader of the Reapers, "created" the Collector's.  Following the previously mentioned circular logic, Harbinger knew it was only a matter of time before the Collector's rebelled.  Harbinger knowing that he would lose these "tools" turned his focus to the next set...

At this point, let's go ahead and get into the theory.  At the start of ME 2 we see the Collector's destroy the Normandy and "kill" Shepard.  This was their first act of defieance against their creator, Harbinger.  Because he did not want Shepard "killed" but he wanted Sheaprd captured.  Harbinger knew that the day when the Collector's would rebel and try to destroy him was coming - but he had planned for this.  He was going to use these current tools to subtely put the machinations into work to bring him his next tools, the humans.  He would do this on two fronts, the creation of a human Reaper (which he needed the Collector's to collect the resources) and a singular consciousness that would "become" this Reaper.  That consciousness would be Shepard - the symbol of everything that humanity strived to be.  But the definace that the Collector's showed in "killing" Shepard rather than capturing Shepard - forced Harbinger to turn to plan B.

Knowing that the Collector's could no longer be trusted.  Harbinger started to influence TIM, started to influence him to save Shepard and bring him back.  It was only if he was brought back that he could become an ultimate Reaper agent.  The events of ME 2, starting with the Lazarus Project, was a Reaper design to create their next tool.  Harbinger would deftly move these two seperate forces slowly on his galactic chess board towards a confrontation.  A confrontation that regardless of its winner would lead his next greatest tool right into his tentacles.  Harbinger would "grant" TIM just enough insight to see the "patterns" of the Collector's plans slowly drawing him (and therefore Shepard) to the Collector base.  If Shepard failed to destroy the Collectors, he would be captured and prepared for upload to the human Reaper.  If he succeeded, then he would gain the clout to gather all of the opposition to a later trap.

It was a perfect plan.  A plan that would end with the Indoctrination of what the galaxy had come to know as its saviour.  How could he fail?


That's the general outline...there are more ideas rumbling around in my head...but what do you guys/gals think? 

Modifié par D.Sharrah, 09 juin 2012 - 03:17 .