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[Raistlin Majare 1992]

paxxton wrote...

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

paxxton wrote...

D.Sharrah wrote...

paxxton wrote...

D.Sharrah wrote...

*snip*

That's the general outline...there are more ideas rumbling around in my head...but what do you guys/gals think? 

You sir, are a genius. You might have finally connected all the dots! Are you a BioWare insider?

No I am not an insider...just building on some of the ideas being discussed here...There is no way that I can hosetly say that I came up with that on my own...maybe connected a few dots, but only by making assumptions - and we all know what that can do.

Your theory explains the logic behind the starchild's thinking and finally proves that it makes sense.

What had been missing was the answer to a question why Harbinger would order the Collectors to kill Shepard if he wanted him alive. Your answer is plausible and makes the pieces of the puzzle fall in place.

No it makes no sense at all.

If harbinger knew the Collectors woudl turn upon him sooner or later the logical solution is to blow them to bits while you still have them under your complete control, like at the end of the Prothean cycle when everything else has been done. Hell Sovereign could do the cleanup alone while waiting for the next cycle anyway.

Remember the Collectors were not needed at all for the Reapers invasion, they were merely an asset they could use. If they are gonna turn upon you, blow them up.

Also they havent turned upon the Reapers since a mail updating the war effort on Palaven mentions Collector forces.

Edit: Here is the exact quote, was codex, not mail. My bad.

The Reapers did not understand the seriousness of the threat at
first--those that detected the landing crafts sent husks and Collector
swarms to intercept them, but little more. This allowed krogan commandos
to link up with Palaven's resistance and hand off their payloads--warp
bombs and fission weapons.

If the Reapers decided to destroy the Collectors in advance they wouldn't have any servants in the Milky Way while floating in the Dark Space. The problem isn't that the Reapers can't do that but that they needed the Collectors and have waited until they really rebel, not just make a single diversion (killing Shepard).

Does the name Sovereign ring a bell? You know the Reaper who without collector help indoctrinated the greatest Spectre (before Shepard) and led a very close to successful assault upon the Citadel?

And even taht was an extreme case since you know usualy the Reapers imply pour through and annihilate everything, no need for Collectors.

They are like number 3 on the planning list and accoding to you also unrelaible...and nothing tehy did had anything to do with hastening the Reapers return...

Modifié par Raistlin Majare 1992, 09 juin 2012 - 07:47 .

[Starbuck8]

paxxton wrote...

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

paxxton wrote...

D.Sharrah wrote...

paxxton wrote...

D.Sharrah wrote...

*snip*

That's the general outline...there are more ideas rumbling around in my head...but what do you guys/gals think? 

You sir, are a genius. You might have finally connected all the dots! Are you a BioWare insider?

No I am not an insider...just building on some of the ideas being discussed here...There is no way that I can hosetly say that I came up with that on my own...maybe connected a few dots, but only by making assumptions - and we all know what that can do.

Your theory explains the logic behind the starchild's thinking and finally proves that it makes sense.

What had been missing was the answer to a question why Harbinger would order the Collectors to kill Shepard if he wanted him alive. Your answer is plausible and makes the pieces of the puzzle fall in place.

No it makes no sense at all.

If harbinger knew the Collectors woudl turn upon him sooner or later the logical solution is to blow them to bits while you still have them under your complete control, like at the end of the Prothean cycle when everything else has been done. Hell Sovereign could do the cleanup alone while waiting for the next cycle anyway.

Remember the Collectors were not needed at all for the Reapers invasion, they were merely an asset they could use. If they are gonna turn upon you, blow them up.

Also they havent turned upon the Reapers since a mail updating the war effort on Palaven mentions Collector forces.

Edit: Here is the exact quote, was codex, not mail. My bad.

The Reapers did not understand the seriousness of the threat at
first--those that detected the landing crafts sent husks and Collector
swarms to intercept them, but little more. This allowed krogan commandos
to link up with Palaven's resistance and hand off their payloads--warp
bombs and fission weapons.

If the Reapers decided to destroy the Collectors in advance they wouldn't have any servants in the Milky Way while floating in the Dark Space. The problem isn't that the Reapers can't do that but that they needed the Collectors and have waited until they really rebel, not just make a single diversion (killing Shepard).

Hmm, that makes me want to ask, if the collectors were capable of rebelling, would the reapers let their 50,000 year plan ride with such an unknown or potentially devastating possibility? I know a lot of people think of the collectors as Plan B, but I actually think the collectors are more vital to the cycle. The reapers need the collectors to test the genetic waters so to speak in order to be sure that not only does a suitable species even exist for reproduction and creating new reapers, but also to know which species to harvest and what kind of modifications to make to turn them into reaper forces.

Edit: Changed a . to a ? :happy:

Modifié par Starbuck8, 09 juin 2012 - 07:51 .

[paxxton]

UrgentArchengel wrote...

Here's my little theory on IT related things.

Was IT planned from the beginning? No.

I say this because the leaked script from back in November was basically the same thing we got in the end. They said they were going to change it, but it never happened. Here's what I think.

I believe what Bioware did was they had the game practically done, all that was missing was polish and MP stuff. But they needed to fix the ending. Somebody must have brought up the indoctrination idea, and to which, they all agreed. From there they cut stuff from the Starbringer part, added a Shepard live's cut scene, and threw in a bunch of hints to the player. To make a long story short, They decided to use the crappy ending as an indoctrination attempt to save themselves the effort of having to make a new ending with a practically zero budget.

I hope that made sense, I am really bad at expressing ideas.

i don't think that was the case. IT is an inherent part of the player's experience throughout the 3rd game. It couldn't have been decided on as a last resort to a rapidly shrinking budget or approaching crunch time. It's too well integrated.

Modifié par paxxton, 09 juin 2012 - 07:47 .

[Eryri]

UrgentArchengel wrote...

Here's my little theory on IT related things.

Was IT planned from the beginning? No.

I say this because the leaked script from back in November was basically the same thing we got in the end. They said they were going to change it, but it never happened. Here's what I think.

I believe what Bioware did was they had the game practically done, all that was missing was polish and MP stuff. But they needed to fix the ending. Somebody must have brought up the indoctrination idea, and to which, they all agreed. From there they cut stuff from the Starbringer part, added a Shepard live's cut scene, and threw in a bunch of hints to the player. To make a long story short, They decided to use the crappy ending as an indoctrination attempt to save themselves the effort of having to make a new ending with a practically zero budget.

I hope that made sense, I am really bad at expressing ideas.

I think you may have something there. 

Personally I'm not totally convinced that Bioware had the IT planned, but I do think its an excellent way to fix the ending in a way that allows them to save face and us to have an original and unusual ending - hopefuly including more gameplay (Harbinger boss fight, please, please, please!)

If Bioware comes out and says "Oh er... yeah. We like er... totally had this planned from the beginning guys." I for one won't blame them or complain. I'll just be happy ME3 got the ending it deserved.

Modifié par Eryri, 09 juin 2012 - 08:09 .

[DJBare]

UrgentArchengel wrote...

Here's my little theory on IT related things.

Was IT planned from the beginning? No.

I say this because the leaked script from back in November was basically the same thing we got in the end. They said they were going to change it, but it never happened. Here's what I think.

You of course assume the leak was accidental, I personally have a problem with that because firstly Microsoft get a bee in their bonnet about what's released on the console, software has to go through a certification process, without a certificate applied when the guy/gal who pushes the button to transfer the software to the server for download would get a dialogue message concerning the certificate, secondly it was the "writers" script that was embedded in the leak, it's just too convenient how it ended up on the console in my opinion.

[Turbo_J]

paxxton wrote...

UrgentArchengel wrote...

Here's my little theory on IT related things.

Was IT planned from the beginning? No.

I say this because the leaked script from back in November was basically the same thing we got in the end. They said they were going to change it, but it never happened. Here's what I think.

I believe what Bioware did was they had the game practically done, all that was missing was polish and MP stuff. But they needed to fix the ending. Somebody must have brought up the indoctrination idea, and to which, they all agreed. From there they cut stuff from the Starbringer part, added a Shepard live's cut scene, and threw in a bunch of hints to the player. To make a long story short, They decided to use the crappy ending as an indoctrination attempt to save themselves the effort of having to make a new ending with a practically zero budget.

I hope that made sense, I am really bad at expressing ideas.

i don't think that was the case. IT is an inherent part of the player's experience throughout the 3rd game. It couldn't have been decided on as a last resort to a rapidly shrinking budget or approaching crunch time. It's too well integrated.

It still blows me away hearing that. so at the last minute, they tuned every third or fourth piece of dialog and modified countless scenes, added the kid and the dreams, made the last 10 minutes loopy and circular... with what, one or two weeks left before release? Or decided it would be cool after everyone complained about the ending?

We need a damn face palm smilie

[UrgentArchengel]

DJBare wrote...

UrgentArchengel wrote...

Here's my little theory on IT related things.

Was IT planned from the beginning? No.

I say this because the leaked script from back in November was basically the same thing we got in the end. They said they were going to change it, but it never happened. Here's what I think.

You of course assume the leak was accidental, I personally have a problem with that because firstly Microsoft get a bee in their bonnet about what's released on the console, software has to go through a certification process, without a certificate applied when the guy/gal who pushes the button to transfer the software to the server for download would get a dialogue message concerning the certificate, secondly it was the "writers" script that was embedded in the leak, it's just too convenient how it ended up on the console in my opinion.

Didn't know that.  Not really the most tech-savvy here.  Either way, IT is what we have now.  Just wanted to get that off chest, it's been bugging me for like a week. 

[UrgentArchengel]

@Turbo

From Nov. to Mar.

Like what? 3 months? Don't see where you got 2 weeks from. And thanks for the insult by the way.

[Eryri]

paxxton wrote...

UrgentArchengel wrote...

Here's my little theory on IT related things.

Was IT planned from the beginning? No.

I say this because the leaked script from back in November was basically the same thing we got in the end. They said they were going to change it, but it never happened. Here's what I think.

I believe what Bioware did was they had the game practically done, all that was missing was polish and MP stuff. But they needed to fix the ending. Somebody must have brought up the indoctrination idea, and to which, they all agreed. From there they cut stuff from the Starbringer part, added a Shepard live's cut scene, and threw in a bunch of hints to the player. To make a long story short, They decided to use the crappy ending as an indoctrination attempt to save themselves the effort of having to make a new ending with a practically zero budget.

I hope that made sense, I am really bad at expressing ideas.

i don't think that was the case. IT is an inherent part of the player's experience throughout the 3rd game. It couldn't have been decided on as a last resort to a rapidly shrinking budget or approaching crunch time. It's too well integrated.

I really hope you're right. I would love IT to be what they planned all along, and for them to have a fantastic final chapter waiting for us in the wings. It would completely restore my faith in Bioware.

[paxxton]

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

paxxton wrote...

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

paxxton wrote...

D.Sharrah wrote...

paxxton wrote...

D.Sharrah wrote...

*snip*

That's the general outline...there are more ideas rumbling around in my head...but what do you guys/gals think? 

You sir, are a genius. You might have finally connected all the dots! Are you a BioWare insider?

No I am not an insider...just building on some of the ideas being discussed here...There is no way that I can hosetly say that I came up with that on my own...maybe connected a few dots, but only by making assumptions - and we all know what that can do.

Your theory explains the logic behind the starchild's thinking and finally proves that it makes sense.

What had been missing was the answer to a question why Harbinger would order the Collectors to kill Shepard if he wanted him alive. Your answer is plausible and makes the pieces of the puzzle fall in place.

No it makes no sense at all.

If harbinger knew the Collectors woudl turn upon him sooner or later the logical solution is to blow them to bits while you still have them under your complete control, like at the end of the Prothean cycle when everything else has been done. Hell Sovereign could do the cleanup alone while waiting for the next cycle anyway.

Remember the Collectors were not needed at all for the Reapers invasion, they were merely an asset they could use. If they are gonna turn upon you, blow them up.

Also they havent turned upon the Reapers since a mail updating the war effort on Palaven mentions Collector forces.

Edit: Here is the exact quote, was codex, not mail. My bad.

The Reapers did not understand the seriousness of the threat at
first--those that detected the landing crafts sent husks and Collector
swarms to intercept them, but little more. This allowed krogan commandos
to link up with Palaven's resistance and hand off their payloads--warp
bombs and fission weapons.

If the Reapers decided to destroy the Collectors in advance they wouldn't have any servants in the Milky Way while floating in the Dark Space. The problem isn't that the Reapers can't do that but that they needed the Collectors and have waited until they really rebel, not just make a single diversion (killing Shepard).

Does the name Sovereign ring a bell? You know the Reaper who without collector help indoctrinated the greatest Spectre (before Shepard) and led a very close to successful assault upon the Citadel?

And even taht was an extreme case since you know usualy the Reapers imply pour through and annihilate everything, no need for Collectors.

They are like number 3 on the planning list and accoding to you also unrelaible...and nothing tehy did had anything to do with hastening the Reapers return...

Sovereign? Wait, let me see in my address book. Nope, no Sovereign.

The Collectors hadn't shown symptoms of rebellion until after Sovereign was destroyed. In ME2 the Reapers needed the Collectors to build the Proto-Reaper even though they started to become unpredictable. it was that or be stuck in Dak Space for another year. Only after their plan had failed The Reapers decided to go on foot.

Modifié par paxxton, 09 juin 2012 - 08:05 .

[MesonicCashew]

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

paxxton wrote...

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

paxxton wrote...

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

paxxton wrote...

D.Sharrah wrote...

paxxton wrote...

D.Sharrah wrote...

*snip*

That's the general outline...there are more ideas rumbling around in my head...but what do you guys/gals think? 

You sir, are a genius. You might have finally connected all the dots! Are you a BioWare insider?

No I am not an insider...just building on some of the ideas being discussed here...There is no way that I can hosetly say that I came up with that on my own...maybe connected a few dots, but only by making assumptions - and we all know what that can do.

Your theory explains the logic behind the starchild's thinking and finally proves that it makes sense.

What had been missing was the answer to a question why Harbinger would order the Collectors to kill Shepard if he wanted him alive. Your answer is plausible and makes the pieces of the puzzle fall in place.

No it makes no sense at all.

If harbinger knew the Collectors woudl turn upon him sooner or later the logical solution is to blow them to bits while you still have them under your complete control, like at the end of the Prothean cycle when everything else has been done. Hell Sovereign could do the cleanup alone while waiting for the next cycle anyway.

Remember the Collectors were not needed at all for the Reapers invasion, they were merely an asset they could use. If they are gonna turn upon you, blow them up.

Also they havent turned upon the Reapers since a mail updating the war effort on Palaven mentions Collector forces.

Edit: Here is the exact quote, was codex, not mail. My bad.

The Reapers did not understand the seriousness of the threat at
first--those that detected the landing crafts sent husks and Collector
swarms to intercept them, but little more. This allowed krogan commandos
to link up with Palaven's resistance and hand off their payloads--warp
bombs and fission weapons.

If the Reapers decided to destroy the Collectors in advance they wouldn't have any servants in the Milky Way while floating in the Dark Space. The problem isn't that the Reapers can't do that but that they needed the Collectors and have waited until they really rebel, not just make a single diversion (killing Shepard).

Does the name Sovereign ring a bell? You know the Reaper who without collector help indoctrinated the greatest Spectre (before Shepard) and led a very close to successful assault upon the Citadel?

And even taht was an extreme case since you know usualy the Reapers imply pour through and annihilate everything, no need for Collectors.

They are like number 3 on the planning list and accoding to you also unrelaible...and nothing tehy did had anything to do with hastening the Reapers return...

Sovereign? Wait, let me see in my address book. Nope, no Sovereign.

The Collectors hadn't shown symptoms of rebellion until after Sovereign was destroyed. In ME2 the Reapers needed the Collectors to build the Proto-Reaper even though they started to become unpredictable. it was that or be stuck in Dak Space for another year. Only after their plan had failed The Reapers decided to go on foot.

...

What?

After 2 years (or close to that) of work that Proto Reaper was not even near complete, I mena that thing was supposed to end at 2 km in length and the Colelctors woudl need way more people for that and time.

The Reapers were probably allready coming in fact the fact that Arrival can be done before you destroy the Collector base proves the Reapers were on their way on foot from the very start of ME2.

[Arian Dynas]

D.Sharrah wrote...

Turbo_J wrote...

Snip..

The bold part is an assumption... Collectors are no more alive or individuals than a VI. Further more; "having a VI drive your body isn't life intelligence... But it would allow for direct control.

Saren was dead... dead dead... Sovereign blew every piece of organic remnants off of him when he assumed control. Reaper tech is what allows that - although Dr. Kensin is an anomaly in that respect.

But if it was a simple as that...then why doesn't Harbinger ever "assume" control over any of the other Reaper ground forces...you would think that anyone of the battles Shep has been in where he can potentially stop/delay one of their plans would be a good enough reason to see to the problem "in person".

I still feel killing Saren off as completely as that was a waste. They could have told a rather interesting story with him ressurected as a Reaper soldier going rogue, then for his own survivial forced to work with the very man who had killed him.

[MaximizedAction]

Arian Dynas wrote...

D.Sharrah wrote...

Turbo_J wrote...

Snip..

The bold part is an assumption... Collectors are no more alive or individuals than a VI. Further more; "having a VI drive your body isn't life intelligence... But it would allow for direct control.

Saren was dead... dead dead... Sovereign blew every piece of organic remnants off of him when he assumed control. Reaper tech is what allows that - although Dr. Kensin is an anomaly in that respect.

But if it was a simple as that...then why doesn't Harbinger ever "assume" control over any of the other Reaper ground forces...you would think that anyone of the battles Shep has been in where he can potentially stop/delay one of their plans would be a good enough reason to see to the problem "in person".

I still feel killing Saren off as completely as that was a waste. They could have told a rather interesting story with him ressurected as a Reaper soldier going rogue, then for his own survivial forced to work with the very man who had killed him.

Exactly the reason I'm hoping that we can still get TIM on our side.

[Arian Dynas]

Helios969 wrote...

As a newly converted IDT supporter I had a consideration.  Perhaps it's been brought up and/or addressed previously.

Is the reason so much effort is being exhausted by Harbinger to indoctrinate Shep to put his/her consciousness in control of the human reaper form we saw in ME2?  Shep is humanities' ultimate soldier, he/she would make for a formidable Reaper.

Welcome to the fold, and yes that is one of the prevailing theories.

[Turbo_J]

UrgentArchengel wrote...

@Turbo

From Nov. to Mar.

Like what? 3 months? Don't see where you got 2 weeks from. And thanks for the insult by the way.

3 week or 4 months. The cost to rerecord dialog and cinematics would have been budget busting. It just doesn't make sense.

And you're welcome.

How many times have you played the game? Go back and play through it with Indoctrination in mind and you'll see the signs. It's very well entrenched into the story. I happened to be lucky and go in with the idea that the Reapers were going to try it. I also got lucky hearing; and understanding immediately, the implications of James' 'you hear that hum?'

Go look for the park
Look where the park is supposed to be and look to where - and how high up - the kid got to. Try to make sense of it.

The dreams, the sneaky conversations that allude to 'ending choice' all through the game, the way Anderson and Hackett act around shep... the looks they seem to give during some scenes... and the pauses. That takes some serious direction, but on the voice acting side and cinematics.

We do need a white board... I know there are a few places gathering in game evidence, but a nice dynamic timeline/event based white board would be so nice.

Not all the odd crap happens in the last 10 minutes. It's everywhere... Now where is my tin foil hat!

[Arian Dynas]

MaximizedAction wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

 OK, I had an idea last night in the shower around 12:30 a.m. so it's a little crazy, but I think it's worth sharing.  We've all talked about how the gun represents Shepard's willpower and Anderson represents the unindoctrinated section of Shepard's mind.  So, I was thinking last night about this, and I realized that it's possible that the scene where we see Anderson holding the gun has meaning as well.  (Just as a heads up, you guys should know by now that I'm of the opinion that the hallucination started right after the crash.  Also, I'm going to go with an idea that popped up earlier that the beams being fired by Harbinger represent his attempts to invade Shep's mind.)  Now, we first see the gun in Anderson's hand.  To me, this could represent that the unindoctrinated part of Shepard's mind is able to fight back against indoctrination.  It's armed and in control.  Then, the beam comes, and "Shepard" gets knocked out and Anderson disappears.  When he comes to, he finds the gun, his willpower.  So now, I'm going to share the REALLY crazy idea.  What if, Casey Hudson was being quite literal about the player being Shep?  Meaning, what if the Shepard that we control in the end sequence is LITERALLY a representation of the player.  We have Shepard's willpower litterally in our hands, and it's up to us what we do with it.  Jump to the end, now, you, the player, are completely in control.  You have to decide what to do with Shepard's willpower.  Do you throw it away by choosing Control or Synthesis.  Or do you use it to stay strong, stick to Shepard's beliefs, and win this battle?  I think this could be an explanation for the presence of an actual representation of Shepard.  I mean, think about it.  Anderson is the unindoctrinated part of Shep's mind.  TIM is the representation of the indoctrinated part of Shep's mind.  What could the actual Shepard that we see and control be?  A representation of the player.  Yeah, I know it's kind of crazy, but I figured it wouldn't hurt to share.

Just because it's you, I'll accept this return-less text.

Good idea! That also reminded me how all the time we are in control of Shepard after the laser hit is WITH the gun in Shepard's hand: When transported up to the Citadel, we only gain control after Shepard found the gun on the floor AND EXACTLY when Anderson says the line, that he himself has gotta keep moving.

Regarding Harbinger, you brought up an intersting point. We see Harbinger shooting his laser from his 'eyes', while the Destroyers have a special gun for that. Did we ever see a Reaper shooting multiple laser beams simultaniously? Or from the eyes? If not, then this can very well be a symbolism for Harbinger indoctrinating everyone around Shepard. In that sense, it also explains that we don't see the final laser shot hitting Shepard, but only coming close to him, aka 'he's not yet indoctrinated but about to'.

Fast forward to the choices:
In Control, after Shepard throws away the gun, we start hearing the train sounds. And as someone posted, within dreams this is symbolism for 'losing control'.
Synthesis however, without any foreshadowing sounds or visuals, remains the odd man out. The visual representation of the choice, however, as I only recently noticed, is unique, and I don't mean the green. But I guess most of you already noticed that.
In Destroy, as you wrote, we keep our gun to the last second. Here it shifts from player being in control, to Shepard being in control.

I would argue that TIM is a sort of indoctrinated Id, whereas Anderson is a free Superego, and Shepard is representing his own Ego.

So basically what you said, only a bit more Freudian. Good thoughts though.

[Arian Dynas]

Turbo_J wrote...

Arian Dynas wrote...

Overload_C14 wrote...

Anyone notice on how the maps have started closing in on the story line?
Condor, Jade, Goddess and now on earth? Seems to be following the way the story went and if this leak can be trusted Earth maps will be coming out. Grouped together with the information of the EC with it I feel something fishy here... As soon as these maps come out (Assuming its not fake) we need to give this a good looking over, I think there may be some clues to help prove some of our points in multiplayer.

If you want, I can send you a link to the theory I had on this a while back.

Oh and I expect there to be one more DLC before Earth AND the EC. Some Chronus Station ones.

And it just occured to me, what if summer was the intended date for the proposed IT DLC and the EC is just their way of making us wait for it?

I know I'm late to the party, but I suspected this long ago and got so badly virbally abused I dropped it. The rage was still to fresh I suppose.

Good to see our thought processes align, but I've been touting this theory since the old thread, so I think a bit longer than you've been amongst the IDT.

[paxxton]

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

paxxton wrote...

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

paxxton wrote...

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

paxxton wrote...

D.Sharrah wrote...

paxxton wrote...

D.Sharrah wrote...

*snip*

That's the general outline...there are more ideas rumbling around in my head...but what do you guys/gals think? 

You sir, are a genius. You might have finally connected all the dots! Are you a BioWare insider?

No I am not an insider...just building on some of the ideas being discussed here...There is no way that I can hosetly say that I came up with that on my own...maybe connected a few dots, but only by making assumptions - and we all know what that can do.

Your theory explains the logic behind the starchild's thinking and finally proves that it makes sense.

What had been missing was the answer to a question why Harbinger would order the Collectors to kill Shepard if he wanted him alive. Your answer is plausible and makes the pieces of the puzzle fall in place.

No it makes no sense at all.

If harbinger knew the Collectors woudl turn upon him sooner or later the logical solution is to blow them to bits while you still have them under your complete control, like at the end of the Prothean cycle when everything else has been done. Hell Sovereign could do the cleanup alone while waiting for the next cycle anyway.

Remember the Collectors were not needed at all for the Reapers invasion, they were merely an asset they could use. If they are gonna turn upon you, blow them up.

Also they havent turned upon the Reapers since a mail updating the war effort on Palaven mentions Collector forces.

Edit: Here is the exact quote, was codex, not mail. My bad.

The Reapers did not understand the seriousness of the threat at
first--those that detected the landing crafts sent husks and Collector
swarms to intercept them, but little more. This allowed krogan commandos
to link up with Palaven's resistance and hand off their payloads--warp
bombs and fission weapons.

If the Reapers decided to destroy the Collectors in advance they wouldn't have any servants in the Milky Way while floating in the Dark Space. The problem isn't that the Reapers can't do that but that they needed the Collectors and have waited until they really rebel, not just make a single diversion (killing Shepard).

Does the name Sovereign ring a bell? You know the Reaper who without collector help indoctrinated the greatest Spectre (before Shepard) and led a very close to successful assault upon the Citadel?

And even taht was an extreme case since you know usualy the Reapers imply pour through and annihilate everything, no need for Collectors.

They are like number 3 on the planning list and accoding to you also unrelaible...and nothing tehy did had anything to do with hastening the Reapers return...

Sovereign? Wait, let me see in my address book. Nope, no Sovereign.

The Collectors hadn't shown symptoms of rebellion until after Sovereign was destroyed. In ME2 the Reapers needed the Collectors to build the Proto-Reaper even though they started to become unpredictable. it was that or be stuck in Dak Space for another year. Only after their plan had failed The Reapers decided to go on foot.

...

What?

After 2 years (or close to that) of work that Proto Reaper was not even near complete, I mena that thing was supposed to end at 2 km in length and the Colelctors woudl need way more people for that and time.

The Reapers were probably allready coming in fact the fact that Arrival can be done before you destroy the Collector base proves the Reapers were on their way on foot from the very start of ME2.

What what?

The cycle was to turn a full circle 2 years before ME2. The Collectors were needed to start building a new Reaper as it happened each 50,000 years. And when the Reapers had returned the process was to be accelerated. In the period between ME1 and ME2 organics could have created sufficiently advanced AIs that could have destroyed them or threaten the Reapers. The Reapers couldn't allow that to happen.

[Arian Dynas]

D.Sharrah wrote...

And since BigStig has been the only one to comment here is my crazy theory one more time...I seriuosly want to know if I am pulling a The Number 23 here or at least still in touch with a bit of my sanity.

D.Sharrah wrote...

Creepy eyes be damned!  I don't want this to get lost in the thread...please let me know if I am completely off my rocker...or only slightly off my rocker! 

D.Sharrah wrote...

OK crazy theory incoming...don't say that you weren't warned.
I have been reading through some of the posts over the last couple of days and something slowly has been formulating in my head.  This theory ties the events of ME 2, TIM, the Collector's, Harbinger and of course Shepard into one tight, convulted knot.  Also, this theory makes some assumptions based on the lore - so let's start with those.
Assumptions

1.  TIM having been hit by a wave from a Reaper device, has been slowly succumbing to the affects of Indoctrination.  And while his mind is still his own, it is not w/o Reaper influence (even in ME 2).

2.  Harbinger is very likely to be ReaperBieber the Starbinger.  And therefore is aware of the circular logic that is "The created will always rebel against their creators".

3.  Harbinger being the leader of the Reapers, "created" the Collector's.  Following the previously mentioned circular logic, Harbinger knew it was only a matter of time before the Collector's rebelled.  Harbinger knowing that he would lose these "tools" turned his focus to the next set...

At this point, let's go ahead and get into the theory.  At the start of ME 2 we see the Collector's destroy the Normandy and "kill" Shepard.  This was their first act of defieance against their creator, Harbinger.  Because he did not want Shepard "killed" but he wanted Sheaprd captured.  Harbinger knew that the day when the Collector's would rebel and try to destroy him was coming - but he had planned for this.  He was going to use these current tools to subtely put the machinations into work to bring him his next tools, the humans.  He would do this on two fronts, the creation of a human Reaper (which he needed the Collector's to collect the resources) and a singular consciousness that would "become" this Reaper.  That consciousness would be Shepard - the symbol of everything that humanity strived to be.  But the definace that the Collector's showed in "killing" Shepard rather than capturing Shepard - forced Harbinger to turn to plan B.

Knowing that the Collector's could no longer be trusted.  Harbinger started to influence TIM, started to influence him to save Shepard and bring him back.  It was only if he was brought back that he could become an ultimate Reaper agent.  The events of ME 2, starting with the Lazarus Project, was a Reaper design to create their next tool.  Harbinger would deftly move these two seperate forces slowly on his galactic chess board towards a confrontation.  A confrontation that regardless of its winner would lead his next greatest tool right into his tentacles.  Harbinger would "grant" TIM just enough insight to see the "patterns" of the Collector's plans slowly drawing him (and therefore Shepard) to the Collector base.  If Shepard failed to destroy the Collectors, he would be captured and prepared for upload to the human Reaper.  If he succeeded, then he would gain the clout to gather all of the opposition to a later trap.

It was a perfect plan.  A plan that would end with the Indoctrination of what the galaxy had come to know as its saviour.  How could he fail?


That's the general outline...there are more ideas rumbling around in my head...but what do you guys/gals think? 

I have only one problem with it, as big of a problem as it may be. I don't agree with the created will always rebel assessment, with the Collectors, there wasn't enough indpenedent intellect or soul TO rebel, and the concept itself reeks of false assumption.

[Arian Dynas]

[quote]Eryri wrote...

[quote]UrgentArchengel wrote...

Here's my little theory on IT related things.

Was IT planned from the beginning? No.

I say this because the leaked script from back in November was basically the same thing we got in the end. They said they were going to change it, but it never happened. Here's what I think.

I believe what Bioware did was they had the game practically done, all that was missing was polish and MP stuff. But they needed to fix the ending. Somebody must have brought up the indoctrination idea, and to which, they all agreed. From there they cut stuff from the Starbringer part, added a Shepard live's cut scene, and threw in a bunch of hints to the player. To make a long story short, They decided to use the crappy ending as an indoctrination attempt to save themselves the effort of having to make a new ending with a practically zero budget.

I hope that made sense, I am really bad at expressing ideas. [/quote]

I think you may have something there. 

Personally I'm not totally convinced that Bioware had the IT planned, but I do think its an excellent way to fix the ending in a way that allows them to save face and us to have an original and unusual ending - hopefuly including more gameplay (Harbinger boss fight, please, please, please!)

If Bioware comes out and says "Oh er... yeah. We like er... totally had this planned from the beginning guys." I for one won't blame them or complain. I'll just be happy ME3 got the ending it deserved.

[/quote]

*cough*

[quote]Arian Dynas wrote...

To be entirely honest with you?

I don't think the EC was planned at all.

Does that mean I doubt IT? Heck no.

I think that the EC is Bioware doing EXACTLY what they said, making things more clear so that people can comprehend the ending better. For the simple fact that I think and continue to beleive their DLC plan worked out something like this;

1). Start up the ANN twitter feed, giving "Live realtime accounts" of the war and the events leading up to it, place the timeline to start the invasion on March 6th.

2). Design Mass Effect 3, plant clues both subtle and obvious to draw the interest of the fans, the ending is designed to be strange, out of place, but ultimately fulfilling and capable of satisfying the fans for now. Multiplayer is implimented to keep fan interest up. Fans keep speculating about the strange, out of place ending, staying involved and interested where normally they would finish the game and that would be the end of their thoughts on the subject.

3). Do weekly multiplayer events to make sure that the fans keep playing, even the casual ones, also integrate a story into multiplayer, since A. That's what Bioware does, and B. It gets fans involved in the story, they get to feel like real soldiers in the war. Multiplayer events coincide with classified major operations in the war, usually announced by Admiral Hackett.

4). Release single player DLC which again raises fan involvement and interest and keeps them playing, as well as speculating as more evidence and information comes in over time, in the ANN timeline, it is announced via the Twitter feed (usually the day before) and launched on the dates the events take place on.

5). Release multiplayer packs, representing various forces that enter the war over time, such as the Quarians and more Krogan as forces swell and increase, reflecting the alliegance of various forces, as well as their maneuvers against the Reapers. Which also keeps ME3 in the front of fans minds, interested, involved. thinking about, speculating.

6). Keep updating the ANN twitter feed, which eventually reaches the date of Chronos Station and the Seige of Earth, then to great fanfare, a final ending DLC is released, in which it is revealed the ending was in fact a big mind **** and that Shepard was facing indoctrination, some fans having realized this before, they reveal the numbers from the legend saves, showing the number of people they "indoctrinated" before allowing people to download this DLC, which follows the choice from their Legendsave, forcing them to live with the choice they made, showing them a different result and mission depending on their choices.

7). Mac Walters and Casey Hudson share a bottle of bubbly with Dr. Musyka and Gamble.

Unfortunately, they flubbed the "satisifed" part of the ending, but got the "strange and out of place" part spot on, so they need to make it clearer that it was intentional, so to salvage their original plan, they have to make the EC, which they didn't expect to have to make, and thus they are forced to defend the artistic integrity of their ending, which was meant to be intentional, yet most fans refused to interpret from the get go, not having to expect interpretative value from a videogame. It explains their comments that they didn't expect to make the EC, why they seemed "hurt" that we didn't like the ending, why they defended their artistic integrity so hard, and why they refused to change the endings that are, from face value, a bunch of stinkers, but from IT perspective, are positively brilliant.

Though I don't expect them to be following their original plan now, from the fan backlash, they likely decided it was a far better idea to just make the EC and squeeze in the ending content they originally had planned, potentially sans combat to win back the fans.

And even better? The funny thing about it? They aren't losing out on this at all. The only thing on the line is their reputation, which assuming this whole thing was planned will get completely turned around.

Returned copies? They don't lose any money, the distributing franchises like Gamestop and Amazon do, (considering Origin flatly refused refunds) and the only thing they maybe lose from them is reputation, which if they turn it around by revealing this massive plot twist? They just earned back AND MORE.

Sold games? Put in the used bin? Cerberus network all over again baby, people buy those used games, they already got their money from producing them, now they get to charge an additional $15 for the actual ending. Cash money.

Well what about the people who sold their games? Wouldn't you go out to buy another copy of one of the greatest games ever that was suddenly vindicated by the most epic twist in videogame interactive storytelling history? Especially since now with an ending suited to it, it's perfect? They just sold the same game to a person TWICE. Jackpot.

Lost reputation due to the worst ending in videogame history? Not quite, it's now being actually advertised as "The Most Talked About Ending in Years!" and there's no advertisement like free advertisement, and you KNOW people will buy it out of morbid cuiriousity to see if the ending is really that bad, and plenty will remember the good parts and think "Hmm, that game was fantastic for 98%" and potentially go back to buy the other two. Ca-CHING!

And the prestige! (not the Christopher Nolan flick) Bioware suddenly will be rocketed to the top again as brilliant storytellers, completely vindicated in the eyes of even their most curmudgeonly fans after the supposed fiasco of DA2, as well as having pulled off a plot twist that would make M. Night Shamaylan cry in jealousy, something other developers will dream of copying, but being completely unable to, cementing Bioware's reputation as tops in the videogame storytelling biz. EA will have conquered their reputation as this evil monolithic company, concerned only with making money (yet ironically, will be making more bank than ever, hmm funny, seems people don't mind that when they get what they want out of it.)

And revealing something this big? After the treatment the ending got on the news, you can BET this will be plastered EVERYWHERE. Yet more free advertisement. Not to mention everyone and their literature professor will be talking about it and dissecting it ala Kubrickian methods for years to come (just like we are now) they will have cemented their place as videogame legends.

Not to mention this will be a HUGE jumping off point for an entire FRANCHISE, Mass Effect just became mainstream, nearly as much as Star Trek and Star Wars, with a feature length movie, comic books, videogames, statuettes, three award winning games, the top of their respective markets, novels, patches, tee shirts, anime, all dragged into the limelight.

Think about it greedily if you must, EA is full of smart, undeniably greedy people, do you honestly think they would possibly turn down a gold mine like this, with literally NO downside? With movies and anime and novels and every kind of merchandising swag under the sun coming out with the Mass Effect name, ME is a franchise they are pushing HARD. IT is a win-win suitation for them, if Bioware DIDN'T do it or plan it, EA would be leaning on them anyway TO do it, their artistic integrity be damned! And yet Bioware gets to pull off a first in gaming, a truly interactive, involving storytelling experience, involving REAL roleplaying (not just Paragon and Renegade choices) with actual interprative vaue just like any well written novel, and a genuine artistic value.

It is literally a win-win suitation. And If I can think of it, you can bet your bollocks that EA and Bioware would. [/quote]
[/quote] 

[Arian Dynas]

MaximizedAction wrote...

Corik wrote...

Another evidence of ReaperBieber being in fact a reaper (harbinger probably... or bad writting xD). He says "The catalyst is my home" but two lines after, when talking about how they left humans alone in the last cycle he says "the last time we were here". Okay, Reaperbieber... if you live in the citadel, you haven't moved from here "since the last time they were here". In fact... if you control the reapers and live in the Citadel, why you didn't fix your "home" 3 years ago when Sovereing tried to open the relay to Dark Space? Your arguments are sinking!

Wouldn't it be great if an english teacher could look through those 16 lines of dialog and let the red marker speak.

Also note he claims both that the catalyst is his home... then he goes right out and says he's the catalyst.

So... he's his own home?

[Arian Dynas]

Dwailing wrote...

RavenEyry wrote...

If you've not heard there's a potential possibly maybe leak of a MP pack with Earth maps coming out around the same time as EC. Fits Arian's gameplan if true.

That dude is brilliant.  Seriously, no offence to Byne, but I think he might be the finest of us.

... <3:kissing:

[byne]

Arian Dynas wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

RavenEyry wrote...

If you've not heard there's a potential possibly maybe leak of a MP pack with Earth maps coming out around the same time as EC. Fits Arian's gameplan if true.

That dude is brilliant.  Seriously, no offence to Byne, but I think he might be the finest of us.

... <3:kissing:

I dont know why Dwailing would think I'd take offense to him saying something I fully agree with.

[Dwailing]

Arian Dynas wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

RavenEyry wrote...

If you've not heard there's a potential possibly maybe leak of a MP pack with Earth maps coming out around the same time as EC. Fits Arian's gameplan if true.

That dude is brilliant.  Seriously, no offence to Byne, but I think he might be the finest of us.

... <3:kissing:

I'm glad I could improve your day.