55528 réponses à ce sujet

[BleedingUranium]

TJBartlemus wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

TJBartlemus wrote...


Does anyone have anything new to add to the IT that no one has heard yet? The post about how the beam could be an indoctrination device was genius.  We need another idea like that to boost this topic. Ideas?

We have a barely-tapped gold mine of speculation and random theorizing we can enage in regarding when and to what extent the hallucination starts. Keep in mind we have evidence to support things being wrong on Cronos station, so everything is essentially fair game from that point on.

I like the idea that was suggested earlier that perhaps Shepard is laid out unconscious somewhere, probably under medical care, for the entirety of the London sequence we have now, and that the "final" conversations he has with his squadmates and important people are just interpretations of this they are saying to him while he is knocked out. Similar to what happens to your dreams if you fall asleep with the TV on. You get some weird amalgamation of what's running through your mind and what you're hearing from the outside world. 

I don't know if there's goung to be s specific time it happens, much like a real halluciantion it could be coming on in waves and the line simply blurs on what's real and what's hallucination, I think that the pure fantasy dream portion is still at the Mako crash or after, I think the final conversations you have with squaddies is real...

Well here was my idea to explain it. (posted it awhile ago) I think someone called it the Waking Nightmare theory, but it's not it's own theory but instead more of a support to the origional IT.


My idea is that the fact that the beam is an indoctrination device goes hand in
hand with the IT, and explains what I felt was an absence of a lead up to the
"indoctrination dream". As Shepard gets closer to the beam he starts experiencing
some form of indoctrination induced narcolepsy. Definition: "Narcolepsy is
a neurological disorder that affects the

control of sleep and wakefulness. People with narcolepsy experience

excessive daytime sleepiness and intermittent, uncontrollable episodes

of falling asleep during the daytime. These sudden sleep attacks may

occur during any type of activity at any time of the day." Shepard starts
having what I believe is where he is both awake but getting images from his subconscious
and not notice it. The difference between Narcolepsy and what I am describing
would be that Shepard wouldn't notice the change and be in a "limbo"
between asleep and awake. When he finally gets hit with Harby's beam it shoots
him into full blown sleep and into the "indoctrination dream".

I wrote this in relation to the similarities of the apartment in Priority Earth compared to your personal cabin. It would make sens if the beam was a giant indoctrination device cause that would mop up everyone the Reapers missed for harvesting. No one escapes!!!

This is what I'm going with, because, while I do think all of London is wierd, it's nothing in comparison to after getting hit by Harby. Also, I think that'd be too much for a "dream" segment, that was a lot of story, and all the squadmate goodbyes, and a few other things I doubt they'd go "lol didn't happen" to. I figure the closer Shepard is to Reapers, and the more of them he's close to, the worse this would get.

This would also explain why a few things seemed on on TIM's base (Reaper heart), quite a few more things in London, but way more after getting hit, like, pretty much everything. Also, I'm absolutly convinced getting hit is where you get knocked out because of both the fade-to-white, only otherwise used in the dreams and the Geth consensus, and that "The Catalyst"'s music plays very briefly there, which fits nicely if he and Harbinger are one and the same.

[lex0r11]

Sajuro wrote...

byne wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...


Good point. I'd just like to have a theory that explains the surreality and wrongness of London that also allows us to keep the bulk of what we hear from our squadmates in the "Base camp" sequence in London. It was mostly good stuff, though some of the QEC bits were weak. 

One person they left off the QEC that I'd really have liked to contact was Shepard's mother. Shep knows going into this battle is pretty much the closest thing to a suicide mission there is.

I know for a fact my Shepard would much rather talk to her mom one last time than talk to Jacob.

Yeah. but who would the earthborn shepards talk to?

Just everyone else. I don't think it's a problem that earthborn Shep is missing one scene of the other Sheps. In a game like this, it should be like this, different backgrounds should get different scenes.

Modifié par lex0r11, 11 juin 2012 - 02:08 .

[Rifneno]

Sajuro wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

Man... Shivering Isles sucked so hard. Except for Sheogorath. Listening to his crazed ravings made it all worthwhile. My favorites are the scene where he gives you a spell to summon his none-too-thrilled butler, and his response if you attack him.

Oblivion kind of sucked.

That it did.  The way everything was leveled content just ruined it for me.

[TJBartlemus]

BleedingUranium wrote...

TJBartlemus wrote...

Well here was my idea to explain it. (posted it awhile ago) I think someone called it the Waking Nightmare theory, but it's not it's own theory but instead more of a support to the origional IT.


My idea is that the fact that the beam is an indoctrination device goes hand in
hand with the IT, and explains what I felt was an absence of a lead up to the
"indoctrination dream". As Shepard gets closer to the beam he starts experiencing
some form of indoctrination induced narcolepsy. Definition: "Narcolepsy is
a neurological disorder that affects the

control of sleep and wakefulness. People with narcolepsy experience

excessive daytime sleepiness and intermittent, uncontrollable episodes

of falling asleep during the daytime. These sudden sleep attacks may

occur during any type of activity at any time of the day." Shepard starts
having what I believe is where he is both awake but getting images from his subconscious
and not notice it. The difference between Narcolepsy and what I am describing
would be that Shepard wouldn't notice the change and be in a "limbo"
between asleep and awake. When he finally gets hit with Harby's beam it shoots
him into full blown sleep and into the "indoctrination dream".

I wrote this in relation to the similarities of the apartment in Priority Earth compared to your personal cabin. It would make sens if the beam was a giant indoctrination device cause that would mop up everyone the Reapers missed for harvesting. No one escapes!!!

This is what I'm going with, because, while I do think all of London is wierd, it's nothing in comparison to after getting hit by Harby. Also, I think that'd be too much for a "dream" segment, that was a lot of story, and all the squadmate goodbyes, and a few other things I doubt they'd go "lol didn't happen" to. I figure the closer Shepard is to Reapers, and the more of them he's close to, the worse this would get.

This would also explain why a few things seemed on on TIM's base (Reaper heart), quite a few more things in London, but way more after getting hit, like, pretty much everything. Also, I'm absolutly convinced getting hit is where you get knocked out because of both the fade-to-white, only otherwise used in the dreams and the Geth consensus, and that "The Catalyst"'s music plays very briefly there, which fits nicely if he and Harbinger are one and the same.

Well the point of the theory is that most of what you see did happen or most likely happened but Shepards mind is messing with the details.

[Dwailing]

EpyonX3 wrote...

Dwailing wrote...


If I may quote Javik, "There was no final battle in my cycle."  It wouldn't surprise me at all if that's the way it was for the majority of the cycles.  Our cycle sounds like it is pretty unique compared to many of the other cycles, or at least, that's what I've gathered (Please correct me if I'm wrong.)  Also, Epyon, I have one question, why do you disagree with IT?  Give me one good reason why time and time again you deny every counter argument we present you with.  In fact, I'll save you having to think up an answer to this question.  I'll give you an even simpler one.  Do you hate Bioware?  Please, be honest when you answer.

Our cycle is different thanks to the protheans. Otherwise, there would be no Mass Effect story. The reapers would have just arrived. We were allowed about three years of extra time to prepare for them. Sadly the ones with the power to do so were pretty much in denial so other than that, the reapers proceeded as planned.

I don't hate Bioware. Why should I? They brought this game that is supposed to be much larger in scop than the last three games combined onto three platforms in 2.5 years. That's a huge accomplishment and I understand why Bioware defends their work so passionately.

Why I don't agree with IT? It has bigger consequences than just a bad ending and some angry fans. There are financial and legal implications to going with IT. Some may say it doesn't bother them but it doesn't mean it's not an issue.

It's also a theory based heavily on speculation. I believed IT was possible when I first read about it. But then I found evidence to the contrary. By then, IT had grown into a huge collection of bits of speculation. Some evidence for IT is compelling but others are just wild speculation. 

IT also runs in many flavors and have different starting points. So while I may argue a point with someone one day, I can't bring up the same points to another person the next because they have a different set of arguments about the same thing.

This is just one example: the start of the end game hallucination. So far I've read that it could have began after Shepard gets hit by the beam, Shepard passes out at the control panel, Shepard gets shaken up by the mako crash and the whole entire level was the hallucination.

The theory is full of these and I sometimes have trouble keeping up with all of them. Today I found out about a new one. That the reapers know about the crucible and use it as a trap and that it may have been used as a trap before. That's huge speculation that's easily accepted into IT without solid evidence.

I just can't believe in a theory such as this one like you guys do.

Just a heads up, I THINK (Though I'm by no means certain.), that the general consensus at this point is that the Mako crash is where it started.  The run down the hill is too surreal for it to be completely real, and I'd be inclined to think that it's a complete hallucination.  Also, I would say that it would make MORE sense for the Crucible to be a trap.  I mean really, a device that can magically destroy the Reapers that they haven't discovered up to this point and then don't devote all their efforts to destroying once they DO learn about it?  That would seem kind of improbable, wouldn't you agree? 

[BleedingUranium]

TJBartlemus wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

TJBartlemus wrote...

Well here was my idea to explain it. (posted it awhile ago) I think someone called it the Waking Nightmare theory, but it's not it's own theory but instead more of a support to the origional IT.


My idea is that the fact that the beam is an indoctrination device goes hand in
hand with the IT, and explains what I felt was an absence of a lead up to the
"indoctrination dream". As Shepard gets closer to the beam he starts experiencing
some form of indoctrination induced narcolepsy. Definition: "Narcolepsy is
a neurological disorder that affects the

control of sleep and wakefulness. People with narcolepsy experience

excessive daytime sleepiness and intermittent, uncontrollable episodes

of falling asleep during the daytime. These sudden sleep attacks may

occur during any type of activity at any time of the day." Shepard starts
having what I believe is where he is both awake but getting images from his subconscious
and not notice it. The difference between Narcolepsy and what I am describing
would be that Shepard wouldn't notice the change and be in a "limbo"
between asleep and awake. When he finally gets hit with Harby's beam it shoots
him into full blown sleep and into the "indoctrination dream".

I wrote this in relation to the similarities of the apartment in Priority Earth compared to your personal cabin. It would make sens if the beam was a giant indoctrination device cause that would mop up everyone the Reapers missed for harvesting. No one escapes!!!

This is what I'm going with, because, while I do think all of London is wierd, it's nothing in comparison to after getting hit by Harby. Also, I think that'd be too much for a "dream" segment, that was a lot of story, and all the squadmate goodbyes, and a few other things I doubt they'd go "lol didn't happen" to. I figure the closer Shepard is to Reapers, and the more of them he's close to, the worse this would get.

This would also explain why a few things seemed on on TIM's base (Reaper heart), quite a few more things in London, but way more after getting hit, like, pretty much everything. Also, I'm absolutly convinced getting hit is where you get knocked out because of both the fade-to-white, only otherwise used in the dreams and the Geth consensus, and that "The Catalyst"'s music plays very briefly there, which fits nicely if he and Harbinger are one and the same.

Well the point of the theory is that most of what you see did happen or most likely happened but Shepards mind is messing with the details.

I know, that's what I was agreeing with

[Sajuro]

lex0r11 wrote...

Sajuro wrote...

byne wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...


Good point. I'd just like to have a theory that explains the surreality and wrongness of London that also allows us to keep the bulk of what we hear from our squadmates in the "Base camp" sequence in London. It was mostly good stuff, though some of the QEC bits were weak. 

One person they left off the QEC that I'd really have liked to contact was Shepard's mother. Shep knows going into this battle is pretty much the closest thing to a suicide mission there is.

I know for a fact my Shepard would much rather talk to her mom one last time than talk to Jacob.

Yeah. but who would the earthborn shepards talk to?

Just everyone else. I don't think it's a problem that earthborn Shep is missing one scene of the other Sheps. In a game like this, it should be like this, different backgrounds should get different scenes.

yeah, though sole survivors could get Toombs who'd tell them to f**k themselves and then disconnect

[BleedingUranium]

Dwailing wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

Dwailing wrote...


If I may quote Javik, "There was no final battle in my cycle."  It wouldn't surprise me at all if that's the way it was for the majority of the cycles.  Our cycle sounds like it is pretty unique compared to many of the other cycles, or at least, that's what I've gathered (Please correct me if I'm wrong.)  Also, Epyon, I have one question, why do you disagree with IT?  Give me one good reason why time and time again you deny every counter argument we present you with.  In fact, I'll save you having to think up an answer to this question.  I'll give you an even simpler one.  Do you hate Bioware?  Please, be honest when you answer.

Our cycle is different thanks to the protheans. Otherwise, there would be no Mass Effect story. The reapers would have just arrived. We were allowed about three years of extra time to prepare for them. Sadly the ones with the power to do so were pretty much in denial so other than that, the reapers proceeded as planned.

I don't hate Bioware. Why should I? They brought this game that is supposed to be much larger in scop than the last three games combined onto three platforms in 2.5 years. That's a huge accomplishment and I understand why Bioware defends their work so passionately.

Why I don't agree with IT? It has bigger consequences than just a bad ending and some angry fans. There are financial and legal implications to going with IT. Some may say it doesn't bother them but it doesn't mean it's not an issue.

It's also a theory based heavily on speculation. I believed IT was possible when I first read about it. But then I found evidence to the contrary. By then, IT had grown into a huge collection of bits of speculation. Some evidence for IT is compelling but others are just wild speculation. 

IT also runs in many flavors and have different starting points. So while I may argue a point with someone one day, I can't bring up the same points to another person the next because they have a different set of arguments about the same thing.

This is just one example: the start of the end game hallucination. So far I've read that it could have began after Shepard gets hit by the beam, Shepard passes out at the control panel, Shepard gets shaken up by the mako crash and the whole entire level was the hallucination.

The theory is full of these and I sometimes have trouble keeping up with all of them. Today I found out about a new one. That the reapers know about the crucible and use it as a trap and that it may have been used as a trap before. That's huge speculation that's easily accepted into IT without solid evidence.

I just can't believe in a theory such as this one like you guys do.

Just a heads up, I THINK (Though I'm by no means certain.), that the general consensus at this point is that the Mako crash is where it started.  The run down the hill is too surreal for it to be completely real, and I'd be inclined to think that it's a complete hallucination.  Also, I would say that it would make MORE sense for the Crucible to be a trap.  I mean really, a device that can magically destroy the Reapers that they haven't discovered up to this point and then don't devote all their efforts to destroying once they DO learn about it?  That would seem kind of improbable, wouldn't you agree? 

I'm still believing that it was getting hit by the beam. The fade to white and Catalyst music seem like pretty obvious indicators to me

[Dwailing]

Rifneno wrote...

Sajuro wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

Man... Shivering Isles sucked so hard. Except for Sheogorath. Listening to his crazed ravings made it all worthwhile. My favorites are the scene where he gives you a spell to summon his none-too-thrilled butler, and his response if you attack him.

Oblivion kind of sucked.

That it did.  The way everything was leveled content just ruined it for me.

I've been playing Fallout 3, and I've not been THAT impressed.  I mean, it fine, nothings particularly WRONG with it, it's just that the gunplay is a little clunky, and it seems to lack the drive that, say, Mass Effect has. 

[Dwailing]

BleedingUranium wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

Dwailing wrote...


If I may quote Javik, "There was no final battle in my cycle."  It wouldn't surprise me at all if that's the way it was for the majority of the cycles.  Our cycle sounds like it is pretty unique compared to many of the other cycles, or at least, that's what I've gathered (Please correct me if I'm wrong.)  Also, Epyon, I have one question, why do you disagree with IT?  Give me one good reason why time and time again you deny every counter argument we present you with.  In fact, I'll save you having to think up an answer to this question.  I'll give you an even simpler one.  Do you hate Bioware?  Please, be honest when you answer.

Our cycle is different thanks to the protheans. Otherwise, there would be no Mass Effect story. The reapers would have just arrived. We were allowed about three years of extra time to prepare for them. Sadly the ones with the power to do so were pretty much in denial so other than that, the reapers proceeded as planned.

I don't hate Bioware. Why should I? They brought this game that is supposed to be much larger in scop than the last three games combined onto three platforms in 2.5 years. That's a huge accomplishment and I understand why Bioware defends their work so passionately.

Why I don't agree with IT? It has bigger consequences than just a bad ending and some angry fans. There are financial and legal implications to going with IT. Some may say it doesn't bother them but it doesn't mean it's not an issue.

It's also a theory based heavily on speculation. I believed IT was possible when I first read about it. But then I found evidence to the contrary. By then, IT had grown into a huge collection of bits of speculation. Some evidence for IT is compelling but others are just wild speculation. 

IT also runs in many flavors and have different starting points. So while I may argue a point with someone one day, I can't bring up the same points to another person the next because they have a different set of arguments about the same thing.

This is just one example: the start of the end game hallucination. So far I've read that it could have began after Shepard gets hit by the beam, Shepard passes out at the control panel, Shepard gets shaken up by the mako crash and the whole entire level was the hallucination.

The theory is full of these and I sometimes have trouble keeping up with all of them. Today I found out about a new one. That the reapers know about the crucible and use it as a trap and that it may have been used as a trap before. That's huge speculation that's easily accepted into IT without solid evidence.

I just can't believe in a theory such as this one like you guys do.

Just a heads up, I THINK (Though I'm by no means certain.), that the general consensus at this point is that the Mako crash is where it started.  The run down the hill is too surreal for it to be completely real, and I'd be inclined to think that it's a complete hallucination.  Also, I would say that it would make MORE sense for the Crucible to be a trap.  I mean really, a device that can magically destroy the Reapers that they haven't discovered up to this point and then don't devote all their efforts to destroying once they DO learn about it?  That would seem kind of improbable, wouldn't you agree? 

I'm still believing that it was getting hit by the beam. The fade to white and Catalyst music seem like pretty obvious indicators to me

I agree that the shisno gets real (Or, rather, fake. ) after the beam.  However, I still believe that Shep was knocked out in the crash.  In an earlier entry of mine, I mentioned that I've begun to believe that the beams from Harbinger represent its attempts to pierce Shepard's mind after he's been knocked unconcious.  This would explain why after Shep gets hit, things get VERY kinky.

[balance5050]

TJBartlemus wrote...

Well the point of the theory is that most of what you see did happen or most likely happened but Shepards mind is messing with the details.

I'm also leaning this way, pre mako crash atleast.

[BleedingUranium]

Dwailing wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

Dwailing wrote...


If I may quote Javik, "There was no final battle in my cycle."  It wouldn't surprise me at all if that's the way it was for the majority of the cycles.  Our cycle sounds like it is pretty unique compared to many of the other cycles, or at least, that's what I've gathered (Please correct me if I'm wrong.)  Also, Epyon, I have one question, why do you disagree with IT?  Give me one good reason why time and time again you deny every counter argument we present you with.  In fact, I'll save you having to think up an answer to this question.  I'll give you an even simpler one.  Do you hate Bioware?  Please, be honest when you answer.

Our cycle is different thanks to the protheans. Otherwise, there would be no Mass Effect story. The reapers would have just arrived. We were allowed about three years of extra time to prepare for them. Sadly the ones with the power to do so were pretty much in denial so other than that, the reapers proceeded as planned.

I don't hate Bioware. Why should I? They brought this game that is supposed to be much larger in scop than the last three games combined onto three platforms in 2.5 years. That's a huge accomplishment and I understand why Bioware defends their work so passionately.

Why I don't agree with IT? It has bigger consequences than just a bad ending and some angry fans. There are financial and legal implications to going with IT. Some may say it doesn't bother them but it doesn't mean it's not an issue.

It's also a theory based heavily on speculation. I believed IT was possible when I first read about it. But then I found evidence to the contrary. By then, IT had grown into a huge collection of bits of speculation. Some evidence for IT is compelling but others are just wild speculation. 

IT also runs in many flavors and have different starting points. So while I may argue a point with someone one day, I can't bring up the same points to another person the next because they have a different set of arguments about the same thing.

This is just one example: the start of the end game hallucination. So far I've read that it could have began after Shepard gets hit by the beam, Shepard passes out at the control panel, Shepard gets shaken up by the mako crash and the whole entire level was the hallucination.

The theory is full of these and I sometimes have trouble keeping up with all of them. Today I found out about a new one. That the reapers know about the crucible and use it as a trap and that it may have been used as a trap before. That's huge speculation that's easily accepted into IT without solid evidence.

I just can't believe in a theory such as this one like you guys do.

Just a heads up, I THINK (Though I'm by no means certain.), that the general consensus at this point is that the Mako crash is where it started.  The run down the hill is too surreal for it to be completely real, and I'd be inclined to think that it's a complete hallucination.  Also, I would say that it would make MORE sense for the Crucible to be a trap.  I mean really, a device that can magically destroy the Reapers that they haven't discovered up to this point and then don't devote all their efforts to destroying once they DO learn about it?  That would seem kind of improbable, wouldn't you agree? 

I'm still believing that it was getting hit by the beam. The fade to white and Catalyst music seem like pretty obvious indicators to me

I agree that the shisno gets real (Or, rather, fake. ) after the beam.  However, I still believe that Shep was knocked out in the crash.  In an earlier entry of mine, I mentioned that I've begun to believe that the beams from Harbinger represent its attempts to pierce Shepard's mind after he's been knocked unconcious.  This would explain why after Shep gets hit, things get VERY kinky.

That could work too, but any earlier and it would cause a lot of plot and character problems. They're so close together I'm not going to really make up my mind between those two, we'll see what happens.

[Dwailing]

Dwailing wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

 OK, I had an idea last night in the shower around 12:30 a.m. so it's a little crazy, but I think it's worth sharing.  We've all talked about how the gun represents Shepard's willpower and Anderson represents the unindoctrinated section of Shepard's mind.  So, I was thinking last night about this, and I realized that it's possible that the scene where we see Anderson holding the gun has meaning as well.  (Just as a heads up, you guys should know by now that I'm of the opinion that the hallucination started right after the crash.  Also, I'm going to go with an idea that popped up earlier that the beams being fired by Harbinger represent his attempts to invade Shep's mind.)  

Now, we first see the gun in Anderson's hand.  To me, this could represent that the unindoctrinated part of Shepard's mind is able to fight back against indoctrination.  It's armed and in control.  Then, the beam comes, and "Shepard" gets knocked out and Anderson disappears.  When he comes to, he finds the gun, his willpower.  

So now, I'm going to share the REALLY crazy idea.  What if, Casey Hudson was being quite literal about the player being Shep?  Meaning, what if the Shepard that we control in the end sequence is LITERALLY a representation of the player.  We have Shepard's willpower litterally in our hands, and it's up to us what we do with it.  Jump to the end, now, you, the player, are completely in control.  You have to decide what to do with Shepard's willpower.  Do you throw it away by choosing Control or Synthesis.  Or do you use it to stay strong, stick to Shepard's beliefs, and win this battle?  

I think this could be an explanation for the presence of an actual representation of Shepard.  I mean, think about it.  Anderson is the unindoctrinated part of Shep's mind.  TIM is the representation of the indoctrinated part of Shep's mind.  What could the actual Shepard that we see and control be?  A representation of the player.  Yeah, I know it's kind of crazy, but I figured it wouldn't hurt to share.

Edit: Wow, I think I actually made a wall of text.  Wasn't sure I'd ever make one of those.  Glad I was wrong.

Bumping and tweaking slightly.

Bumping for BleedingUranium to see.  Also, I just had a crazy thought.  What if the Shepard we see represent's Shepard's control over himself?  The gun is his willpower, and he is his self control.  This could explain why we see him disintigrating in Control and Synthesis.  He's surrendered his self control to the Reapers.

Edit: The "he" I'm refering to is the Shepard that we see at the end.  Hey, crazy thought, it WOULD make sense if the Shepard we see is Shepard's self control.  You know why?  Because that's the thing we always control in this sequence.  We are litterally controling Shepard's self control.  I know, freeky, right?

Modifié par Dwailing, 11 juin 2012 - 02:36 .

[Dwailing]

balance5050 wrote...

TJBartlemus wrote...

Well the point of the theory is that most of what you see did happen or most likely happened but Shepards mind is messing with the details.

I'm also leaning this way, pre mako crash atleast.

Yeah, I agree that Priority: Earth does seem kind of off at times.  It wouldn't surprise me if Bioware tells us with the EC that at least some of it was hallucinated.  Not the battles, not the talks with his crew, but some of the things that he sees, like the stuff in the apartment, the husk in the door, you know, stuff like that.

[ThisOneIsPunny]

Dwailing wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

TJBartlemus wrote...

Well the point of the theory is that most of what you see did happen or most likely happened but Shepards mind is messing with the details.

I'm also leaning this way, pre mako crash atleast.

Yeah, I agree that Priority: Earth does seem kind of off at times.  It wouldn't surprise me if Bioware tells us with the EC that at least some of it was hallucinated.  Not the battles, not the talks with his crew, but some of the things that he sees, like the stuff in the apartment, the husk in the door, you know, stuff like that.

Speaking of that, did anyone ever deduce why the skeletons looked the way they did?
Or did everyone eventually agree to it being some kind of dark symbolism?

[BleedingUranium]

Dwailing wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

 OK, I had an idea last night in the shower around 12:30 a.m. so it's a little crazy, but I think it's worth sharing.  We've all talked about how the gun represents Shepard's willpower and Anderson represents the unindoctrinated section of Shepard's mind.  So, I was thinking last night about this, and I realized that it's possible that the scene where we see Anderson holding the gun has meaning as well.  (Just as a heads up, you guys should know by now that I'm of the opinion that the hallucination started right after the crash.  Also, I'm going to go with an idea that popped up earlier that the beams being fired by Harbinger represent his attempts to invade Shep's mind.)  

Now, we first see the gun in Anderson's hand.  To me, this could represent that the unindoctrinated part of Shepard's mind is able to fight back against indoctrination.  It's armed and in control.  Then, the beam comes, and "Shepard" gets knocked out and Anderson disappears.  When he comes to, he finds the gun, his willpower.  

So now, I'm going to share the REALLY crazy idea.  What if, Casey Hudson was being quite literal about the player being Shep?  Meaning, what if the Shepard that we control in the end sequence is LITERALLY a representation of the player.  We have Shepard's willpower litterally in our hands, and it's up to us what we do with it.  Jump to the end, now, you, the player, are completely in control.  You have to decide what to do with Shepard's willpower.  Do you throw it away by choosing Control or Synthesis.  Or do you use it to stay strong, stick to Shepard's beliefs, and win this battle?  

I think this could be an explanation for the presence of an actual representation of Shepard.  I mean, think about it.  Anderson is the unindoctrinated part of Shep's mind.  TIM is the representation of the indoctrinated part of Shep's mind.  What could the actual Shepard that we see and control be?  A representation of the player.  Yeah, I know it's kind of crazy, but I figured it wouldn't hurt to share.

Edit: Wow, I think I actually made a wall of text.  Wasn't sure I'd ever make one of those.  Glad I was wrong.

Bumping and tweaking slightly.

Bumping for BleedingUranium to see.  Also, I just had a crazy thought.  What if the Shepard we see represent's Shepard's control over himself?  The gun is his willpower, and he is his self control.  This could explain why we see him disintigrating in Control and Synthesis.  He's surrendered his self control to the Reapers.

Edit: The "he" I'm refering to is the Shepard that we see at the end.  Hey, crazy thought, it WOULD make sense if the Shepard we see is Shepard's self control.  You know why?  Because that's the thing we always control in this sequence.  We are litterally controling Shepard's self control.  I know, freeky, right?

 That's... amazing!

[BleedingUranium]

ThisOneIsPunny wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

TJBartlemus wrote...

Well the point of the theory is that most of what you see did happen or most likely happened but Shepards mind is messing with the details.

I'm also leaning this way, pre mako crash atleast.

Yeah, I agree that Priority: Earth does seem kind of off at times.  It wouldn't surprise me if Bioware tells us with the EC that at least some of it was hallucinated.  Not the battles, not the talks with his crew, but some of the things that he sees, like the stuff in the apartment, the husk in the door, you know, stuff like that.

Speaking of that, did anyone ever deduce why the skeletons looked the way they did?
Or did everyone eventually agree to it being some kind of dark symbolism?

@Dwailing That's what I'm going with for that mission.

@ThisOneIsPunny I dunno, they look kinda strange, but I thought all the skeletons in ME looked like that.

[Dwailing]

BleedingUranium wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

 OK, I had an idea last night in the shower around 12:30 a.m. so it's a little crazy, but I think it's worth sharing.  We've all talked about how the gun represents Shepard's willpower and Anderson represents the unindoctrinated section of Shepard's mind.  So, I was thinking last night about this, and I realized that it's possible that the scene where we see Anderson holding the gun has meaning as well.  (Just as a heads up, you guys should know by now that I'm of the opinion that the hallucination started right after the crash.  Also, I'm going to go with an idea that popped up earlier that the beams being fired by Harbinger represent his attempts to invade Shep's mind.)  

Now, we first see the gun in Anderson's hand.  To me, this could represent that the unindoctrinated part of Shepard's mind is able to fight back against indoctrination.  It's armed and in control.  Then, the beam comes, and "Shepard" gets knocked out and Anderson disappears.  When he comes to, he finds the gun, his willpower.  

So now, I'm going to share the REALLY crazy idea.  What if, Casey Hudson was being quite literal about the player being Shep?  Meaning, what if the Shepard that we control in the end sequence is LITERALLY a representation of the player.  We have Shepard's willpower litterally in our hands, and it's up to us what we do with it.  Jump to the end, now, you, the player, are completely in control.  You have to decide what to do with Shepard's willpower.  Do you throw it away by choosing Control or Synthesis.  Or do you use it to stay strong, stick to Shepard's beliefs, and win this battle?  

I think this could be an explanation for the presence of an actual representation of Shepard.  I mean, think about it.  Anderson is the unindoctrinated part of Shep's mind.  TIM is the representation of the indoctrinated part of Shep's mind.  What could the actual Shepard that we see and control be?  A representation of the player.  Yeah, I know it's kind of crazy, but I figured it wouldn't hurt to share.

Edit: Wow, I think I actually made a wall of text.  Wasn't sure I'd ever make one of those.  Glad I was wrong.

Bumping and tweaking slightly.

Bumping for BleedingUranium to see.  Also, I just had a crazy thought.  What if the Shepard we see represent's Shepard's control over himself?  The gun is his willpower, and he is his self control.  This could explain why we see him disintigrating in Control and Synthesis.  He's surrendered his self control to the Reapers.

Edit: The "he" I'm refering to is the Shepard that we see at the end.  Hey, crazy thought, it WOULD make sense if the Shepard we see is Shepard's self control.  You know why?  Because that's the thing we always control in this sequence.  We are litterally controling Shepard's self control.  I know, freeky, right?

 That's... amazing!

Yeah, I think I just blew my own mind.  That might be my greatest contribution to this thread. 

Edit: And now, for something completely different.  Does anyone else feel like this song sumarizes his/her feelings about IT at times?  'Cause I swear that it reminds me of that. 
  

Modifié par Dwailing, 11 juin 2012 - 03:00 .

[boeloe]

Dwailing wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

TJBartlemus wrote...

Well the point of the theory is that most of what you see did happen or most likely happened but Shepards mind is messing with the details.

I'm also leaning this way, pre mako crash atleast.

Yeah, I agree that Priority: Earth does seem kind of off at times.  It wouldn't surprise me if Bioware tells us with the EC that at least some of it was hallucinated.  Not the battles, not the talks with his crew, but some of the things that he sees, like the stuff in the apartment, the husk in the door, you know, stuff like that.

This.

Although I'm leaning slighty more to getting hit by Harby's beam as the point where Shepard starts to hallucinate everything rather than the mako crash. Because exactly after that point is where most of 'evidence'  for IT in that sequence starts.

Also it seems to make more sense from a storytelling perspective, although I can't exactly articulate why.

[HellishFiend]

boeloe wrote...

This.

Although I'm leaning slighty more to getting hit by Harby's beam as the point where Shepard starts to hallucinate everything rather than the mako crash. Because exactly after that point is where most of 'evidence'  for IT in that sequence starts.

Also it seems to make more sense from a storytelling perspective, although I can't exactly articulate why.

Normally I would agree, but I think we've found too many things wrong with London to accept it all at face value. Bioware is generally very good at not breaking their own lore, and they seem to do it quite blatantly several times in London. 

[BleedingUranium]

boeloe wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

TJBartlemus wrote...

Well the point of the theory is that most of what you see did happen or most likely happened but Shepards mind is messing with the details.

I'm also leaning this way, pre mako crash atleast.

Yeah, I agree that Priority: Earth does seem kind of off at times.  It wouldn't surprise me if Bioware tells us with the EC that at least some of it was hallucinated.  Not the battles, not the talks with his crew, but some of the things that he sees, like the stuff in the apartment, the husk in the door, you know, stuff like that.

This.

Although I'm leaning slighty more to getting hit by Harby's beam as the point where Shepard starts to hallucinate everything rather than the mako crash. Because exactly after that point is where most of 'evidence'  for IT in that sequence starts.

Also it seems to make more sense from a storytelling perspective, although I can't exactly articulate why.

Probably something to do with the crash being abrupt and unseen, which felt very anti-climatic; whereas the beam run was like "holy**** holy**** holy**** holy**** ARG!"

HellishFiend wrote...

Normally I would agree, but I think we've found too many things wrong with London to accept it all at face value. Bioware is generally very good at not breaking their own lore, and they seem to do it quite blatantly several times in London.

That's why I'm going with the theory that London is real, but with elements of Shep seeing/hearing stuff. Like that Cerberus guy on the Reaper in ME2, who saw "a grey thing" go through a wall.

Modifié par BleedingUranium, 11 juin 2012 - 02:56 .

[Dwailing]

BleedingUranium wrote...

boeloe wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

TJBartlemus wrote...

Well the point of the theory is that most of what you see did happen or most likely happened but Shepards mind is messing with the details.

I'm also leaning this way, pre mako crash atleast.

Yeah, I agree that Priority: Earth does seem kind of off at times.  It wouldn't surprise me if Bioware tells us with the EC that at least some of it was hallucinated.  Not the battles, not the talks with his crew, but some of the things that he sees, like the stuff in the apartment, the husk in the door, you know, stuff like that.

This.

Although I'm leaning slighty more to getting hit by Harby's beam as the point where Shepard starts to hallucinate everything rather than the mako crash. Because exactly after that point is where most of 'evidence'  for IT in that sequence starts.

Also it seems to make more sense from a storytelling perspective, although I can't exactly articulate why.

Probably something to do with the crash being abrupt and unseen, which felt very anti-climatic; whereas the beam run was like "holy**** holy**** holy**** holy**** ARG!"

Ah, that reminds me of this scene. 
 

[Fingertrip]

You know, the way Dwailing puts it, is completely what an artistic vision is, and what classy movie with an artistic vision has in them.

However, I'll share people with this. The consumers are gamers, not people who would want interpretation for something. They will believe in what they see, and take things mostly at face-value. There's a very high probability that people have not taken any sort of education when it comes to showcasing an artistic vision of something, and don't understand why things are the way they are.

A very simple filming 101 is to NEVER SHIFT the camera 180 degrees. Because if you do, for an example while seeing a train come from a railroad on the left-direction, take a 180 degree direction, then the train would suddenly becoming in a direction on the right hand side. The viewer themselves just saw something come from the left, then it shifted so it appears to be coming from the right hand side. People WILL get confused from that small thing.

Even kind of thing is a small artistic thing. Bioware is pretty nitpicky on this to showcase that directions never really change that much. And you're pretty damn certain that their artistic vision on the end, is very true to their game-lore (Which is Indoctrination, which is to lure people in a subtle way). If the playe was aware of the indoctrination, it would break out of the lore-defining "characteristics?" and players would feel as if they were indeed, Shepard-Commander.

However, seeing as they indeed have stated that they player, is indeed Shepard and see what he sees- is now lured into a trap, yet are unaware of it. However, people who understands and acknowledges the game-lore, can understand that SOMETHING is not right in the end, will make the right decision into sticking with their belief that destroy is indeed the right answer to the reaper-conflict. However, this doesn't neccasarily have to showcase to the player that they're being indoctrinated, it's just the fact that the "end" game is indeed WRONG on so many end, they need to start questioning the things they're being given, instead of taking everything at face-value, which I think is safe-to assume, a large portion of the playerbase has been doing, and rightfully so.

The ending is grandeur when you slap the indoctrination into it, and makes the ending seem very cleverly-thought and well played out, and if they indeed cause abit of a controvesy, they will have succesfully decieved the players into the Reaper-trap, and stayed very faithful to their universe which they've created so well over the past years.

I commend Bioware actually, it's really well done.

[Dwailing]

Fingertrip wrote...

You know, the way Dwailing puts it, is completely what an artistic vision is, and what classy movie with an artistic vision has in them.

However, I'll share people with this. The consumers are gamers, not people who would want interpretation for something. They will believe in what they see, and take things mostly at face-value. There's a very high probability that people have not taken any sort of education when it comes to showcasing an artistic vision of something, and don't understand why things are the way they are.

A very simple filming 101 is to NEVER SHIFT the camera 180 degrees. Because if you do, for an example while seeing a train come from a railroad on the left-direction, take a 180 degree direction, then the train would suddenly becoming in a direction on the right hand side. The viewer themselves just saw something come from the left, then it shifted so it appears to be coming from the right hand side. People WILL get confused from that small thing.

Even kind of thing is a small artistic thing. Bioware is pretty nitpicky on this to showcase that directions never really change that much. And you're pretty damn certain that their artistic vision on the end, is very true to their game-lore (Which is Indoctrination, which is to lure people in a subtle way). If the playe was aware of the indoctrination, it would break out of the lore-defining "characteristics?" and players would feel as if they were indeed, Shepard-Commander.

However, seeing as they indeed have stated that they player, is indeed Shepard and see what he sees- is now lured into a trap, yet are unaware of it. However, people who understands and acknowledges the game-lore, can understand that SOMETHING is not right in the end, will make the right decision into sticking with their belief that destroy is indeed the right answer to the reaper-conflict. However, this doesn't neccasarily have to showcase to the player that they're being indoctrinated, it's just the fact that the "end" game is indeed WRONG on so many end, they need to start questioning the things they're being given, instead of taking everything at face-value, which I think is safe-to assume, a large portion of the playerbase has been doing, and rightfully so.

The ending is grandeur when you slap the indoctrination into it, and makes the ending seem very cleverly-thought and well played out, and if they indeed cause abit of a controvesy, they will have succesfully decieved the players into the Reaper-trap, and stayed very faithful to their universe which they've created so well over the past years.

I commend Bioware actually, it's really well done.

This perfectly sumarizes my feelings about the endings and Bioware in general.  Also, thanks for the shout out.  It feels good to contribute something significant.

[Andromidius]

HellishFiend wrote...

boeloe wrote...

This.

Although I'm leaning slighty more to getting hit by Harby's beam as the point where Shepard starts to hallucinate everything rather than the mako crash. Because exactly after that point is where most of 'evidence'  for IT in that sequence starts.

Also it seems to make more sense from a storytelling perspective, although I can't exactly articulate why.

Normally I would agree, but I think we've found too many things wrong with London to accept it all at face value. Bioware is generally very good at not breaking their own lore, and they seem to do it quite blatantly several times in London. 

Well, ignoring the lore breaks in ME2.  Namely guns suddenly needing disposable heat sinks.

Which is a gameplay mechanic, but still!