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[Dwailing]

HellishFiend wrote...

Andromidius wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

boeloe wrote...

This.

Although I'm leaning slighty more to getting hit by Harby's beam as the point where Shepard starts to hallucinate everything rather than the mako crash. Because exactly after that point is where most of 'evidence'  for IT in that sequence starts.

Also it seems to make more sense from a storytelling perspective, although I can't exactly articulate why.

Normally I would agree, but I think we've found too many things wrong with London to accept it all at face value. Bioware is generally very good at not breaking their own lore, and they seem to do it quite blatantly several times in London. 

Well, ignoring the lore breaks in ME2.  Namely guns suddenly needing disposable heat sinks.

Which is a gameplay mechanic, but still!

That's different. It's not broken lore. In that case, they gave a sci-fi plausible explanation for why they did it. Does it follow common sense? No. But it's still sci-fi plausible, and is explained well enough to make it believable. 

That isnt the case in London. Weapons dont work the way they should, with no explanation as to why. One of the weapons doesnt even have a codex entry. Reaper Destroyers dont take as much punishment before going down as they should. There is no precedent for that. To my knowledge, this is the only time in the entire trilogy that they blatantly break their own lore without trying to tweak it first so that it works and remains sci fi plausible. 

Well, in terms of the Cain, I could justify that as a combination of Rule of Cool and Willing Suspension of Disbelief.  I don't have any problems with the power of the Cain.  The guidance system is a little weird, but it could be a case of Gameplay Story Segregation.  If the Cain could track targets, it would have been even MORE overpowered than it was already.  It could be that that was one of its features, it's just they never used it in game to avoid overpowering the Cain even more.  And if I had to hazard a guess as to the function of the Thanix Missles, I would say they probably work like futuristic, mass effect powered RPGs.  If any of you are unfamiliar with how an RPG works in real life, please say so, and I'll put that in a different post.

Modifié par Dwailing, 11 juin 2012 - 03:22 .

[D.Sharrah]

boeloe wrote...

Andromidius wrote...

boeloe wrote...

But in a nutshell what are these things wrong with London (pre mako crash) again?

Hades Cannon Destroyers (never seen before, never seen again).

Cain acting very strangely when fired at said Hades Cannon (it becomes a homing missile, and kills it with a single shot).  If you keep the other Cain and fire it off, it acts normally just like in ME2.

Thannix Missile (never even mentioned before, no codex entry, no explaination as to how it works or why it can one shot Destroyers).

Burned/rotten skeletons in a room, no sign of damage anywhere else, along with a dead Hamster.  In a room that looks suspitiously like Shepard's cabin.

Lots of da ja vu all over London.

Weapon bobbing (unstable).

Lack of music for parts of the mission.

Weird dialogue from certain characters.

Ok thanks.

In my opinion none of it is strong enough to able to say that Priority: Earth is hallucinated in its entire, but that something funky is going on is obvious.

The fact that large parts of the mission played without music is something which really bothered me, it never occured to me to connect this to IT though.

Yeah...I keep thinking what we get is a mix of hallucination/reality, that may have started the moment Shep wakes from the last dream.

[HellishFiend]

boeloe wrote...

NB, I'm not disputing the fact that Shepard is undergoing some of the effects of indoctrination, screwing with his perception of reality during Priority: London. Just pointing out what I find the most logical point in time where hallucination takes over completely.

But in a nutshell what are these things wrong with London (pre mako crash) again?

The biggest ones are the Cain not following the lore when it takes down the Hades Cannon, the Hades Cannon Reaper going down way too easy, when we already know that a single shot from a Cain isnt enough to take down even a proto-Reaper in ME2, and Thanix Missiles, of which are no such thing. Thanix technology operates similar to how a railgun operates in real life. You cant make a missile out of that. And if they did, they would have explained it via a codex entry like they always do. And again these fake weapons are used to take down a Reaper with relative ease. 

So essentially it took a fleet of ships a significant number of barrages to take the Rannoch Reaper down, and yet in London we see two weapons that fire contradictory to their entries in the codex take down two Reapers like if they were Brutes. 

Add on top of that the fact that a great many of the areas in London are basically rehashes of things from Shepard's memory, and it just seems way too fishy. This is supposed to be the stretch run of the trilogy, and they rehash everything and break lore while theyre at it? I dont buy it, personally. 

[lex0r11]

Dwailing wrote...

lex0r11 wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

[...]

You know, come to think of it, the burned skeleton COULD be a shout out to the whole Shepard burning thing at the end of the last dream, although I should point out that it is accurate that all the skeletons look like that, so it might be a genuine case of reused asset.

REALLY like how creativity is lighting up again in this thread.
Lighting up. Huhu. Burned skeletons. Hihi.


Okay, sorry. I have to get home already to my bed..

I understand.  I'm heading to bed soon, too.  BTW, if you don't mind my asking, what country are you from?

I live in Germany. it's 5am over here.
Had this topic in the other thread. I work funny hours, part time military few times a month, part time earning money some other way. Being a student instead of trying to just paying bills. Seems to work just fine. Lulz.

[Dwailing]

D.Sharrah wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

D.Sharrah wrote...

Clearly there is some weird stuff going on in London...I just can't scrap the entirity of the mission on Earth.

On another note completely...I once postulated that you could have your cake and eat it too. Meaning that IT could be true, but there was some "face value" to the endings as well. What if the rather than taking Shepard's physical body to the Citadel/Crucible, the Conduit uploaded his mind only...we have a similar experience to the Geth Consensus, where our mind is trying to make sense of things and what we "see" is not "real"...but it has real consequences.

Were you the one with the VR Theory a while back?

Don't think it was me...but I think that I have seen similar things...I think I first posted this as an idea on the old thread...but there is no way that I could tell you if I was the first.

OK, 'cause I remember a theory like this poping up before.  It's an interesting theory, though I'm not convinced that it's what actually happened.  However, I would be fine if BW went with something like this.  It wouldn't bother me.

[Andromidius]

boeloe wrote...

Ok thanks.

In my opinion none of it is strong enough to able to say that Priority: Earth is hallucinated in its entire, but that something funky is going on is obvious.

The fact that large parts of the mission played without music is something which really bothered me, it never occured to me to connect this to IT though.

Yeah, its my view too.  Waking hallucinations altering reality a bit, at the very least.  Sort of like how people start seeing things that aren't there if they are sleep deprived or stressed to breaking point.

[HellishFiend]

Dwailing wrote...

Well, in terms of the Cain, I could justify that as a combination of Rule of Cool and Willing Suspension of Disbelief.  I don't have any problems with the power of the Cain.  The guidance system is a little weird, but it could be a case of Gameplay Story Segregation.  If the Cain could track targets, it would have been even MORE overpowered than it was already.  It could be that that was one of its features, it's just they never used it in game to avoid overpowering the Cain even more.  And if I had to hazard a guess as to the function of the Thanix Missles, I would say they probably work like futuristic, mass effect powered RPGs.  If any of you are unfamiliar with how an RPG works in real life, please say so, and I'll put that in a different post.

Normally I might agree. But I think that the fact that there is a second Cain sitting next to the first one which you can then use and see it operate correctly as a Cain should, that its Bioware calling attention to the matter. If they did it for convenience, why put that second Cain there and ruin the immersion by having the same weapon operate two different ways? And why have it contradict the Codex entry? They nixed the codex entry in ME2, why not nix it again for part 3 if theyre going to contradict it anyway? Same goes for the Thanix missiles. 

[Dwailing]

HellishFiend wrote...

boeloe wrote...

NB, I'm not disputing the fact that Shepard is undergoing some of the effects of indoctrination, screwing with his perception of reality during Priority: London. Just pointing out what I find the most logical point in time where hallucination takes over completely.

But in a nutshell what are these things wrong with London (pre mako crash) again?

The biggest ones are the Cain not following the lore when it takes down the Hades Cannon, the Hades Cannon Reaper going down way too easy, when we already know that a single shot from a Cain isnt enough to take down even a proto-Reaper in ME2, and Thanix Missiles, of which are no such thing. Thanix technology operates similar to how a railgun operates in real life. You cant make a missile out of that. And if they did, they would have explained it via a codex entry like they always do. And again these fake weapons are used to take down a Reaper with relative ease. 

So essentially it took a fleet of ships a significant number of barrages to take the Rannoch Reaper down, and yet in London we see two weapons that fire contradictory to their entries in the codex take down two Reapers like if they were Brutes. 

Add on top of that the fact that a great many of the areas in London are basically rehashes of things from Shepard's memory, and it just seems way too fishy. This is supposed to be the stretch run of the trilogy, and they rehash everything and break lore while theyre at it? I dont buy it, personally. 

I should point out that one shot from the Cain in ME2 was enough to destroy the core of the Derelict Reaper in ME2, and it did SIGNIFICANT damage to the weak points of what was going to be a capital ship.

[D.Sharrah]

HellishFiend wrote...

boeloe wrote...

NB, I'm not disputing the fact that Shepard is undergoing some of the effects of indoctrination, screwing with his perception of reality during Priority: London. Just pointing out what I find the most logical point in time where hallucination takes over completely.

But in a nutshell what are these things wrong with London (pre mako crash) again?

The biggest ones are the Cain not following the lore when it takes down the Hades Cannon, the Hades Cannon Reaper going down way too easy, when we already know that a single shot from a Cain isnt enough to take down even a proto-Reaper in ME2, and Thanix Missiles, of which are no such thing. Thanix technology operates similar to how a railgun operates in real life. You cant make a missile out of that. And if they did, they would have explained it via a codex entry like they always do. And again these fake weapons are used to take down a Reaper with relative ease. 

So essentially it took a fleet of ships a significant number of barrages to take the Rannoch Reaper down, and yet in London we see two weapons that fire contradictory to their entries in the codex take down two Reapers like if they were Brutes. 

Add on top of that the fact that a great many of the areas in London are basically rehashes of things from Shepard's memory, and it just seems way too fishy. This is supposed to be the stretch run of the trilogy, and they rehash everything and break lore while theyre at it? I dont buy it, personally. 

A really good way to test this is on Menae...can't remeber what the name of the weapon is (Blackstar, maybe), but you can pick up what is the Reaper equivalent to the Cain.  If you play your cards right you can actually take a shot at one of the Reapers off in the distance and see an impact...now assuming that it is of equivalent power, then why doesn't it take the Reaper down, like on Earth w/the Cain (and that is not even taking into account the homing).

And no I don't have a video and can't get one cause I am on 360.

Modifié par D.Sharrah, 11 juin 2012 - 03:30 .

[Dwailing]

HellishFiend wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

Well, in terms of the Cain, I could justify that as a combination of Rule of Cool and Willing Suspension of Disbelief.  I don't have any problems with the power of the Cain.  The guidance system is a little weird, but it could be a case of Gameplay Story Segregation.  If the Cain could track targets, it would have been even MORE overpowered than it was already.  It could be that that was one of its features, it's just they never used it in game to avoid overpowering the Cain even more.  And if I had to hazard a guess as to the function of the Thanix Missles, I would say they probably work like futuristic, mass effect powered RPGs.  If any of you are unfamiliar with how an RPG works in real life, please say so, and I'll put that in a different post.

Normally I might agree. But I think that the fact that there is a second Cain sitting next to the first one which you can then use and see it operate correctly as a Cain should, that its Bioware calling attention to the matter. If they did it for convenience, why put that second Cain there and ruin the immersion by having the same weapon operate two different ways? And why have it contradict the Codex entry? They nixed the codex entry in ME2, why not nix it again for part 3 if theyre going to contradict it anyway? Same goes for the Thanix missiles. 

Yeah, it IS weird that they didn't provide any description for the Thanix missles.  However, I should point out, with regards to the Cain, that the distance between the Reaper and Shepard, and the Banshee and Shepard was very different.  It's possible that Shepard had to turn down the power of the Cain (If it could have it's power level adjusted.) for dealing with the Banshee, due to how much closer it was.  Also, it's possible that there really wasn't enough distance for the tracking system to be needed, so it's possible that it just didn't kick in.

Modifié par Dwailing, 11 juin 2012 - 03:31 .

[UrgentArchengel]

I will agree that Priority: Earth definiately happened, area/action/dialogue-wise. But there was definiately something going down. I do disagree with the Mako Crash being the point the indoctrination starts, I much more prefer Harbinger being a bad shot.

[Dwailing]

D.Sharrah wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

boeloe wrote...

NB, I'm not disputing the fact that Shepard is undergoing some of the effects of indoctrination, screwing with his perception of reality during Priority: London. Just pointing out what I find the most logical point in time where hallucination takes over completely.

But in a nutshell what are these things wrong with London (pre mako crash) again?

The biggest ones are the Cain not following the lore when it takes down the Hades Cannon, the Hades Cannon Reaper going down way too easy, when we already know that a single shot from a Cain isnt enough to take down even a proto-Reaper in ME2, and Thanix Missiles, of which are no such thing. Thanix technology operates similar to how a railgun operates in real life. You cant make a missile out of that. And if they did, they would have explained it via a codex entry like they always do. And again these fake weapons are used to take down a Reaper with relative ease. 

So essentially it took a fleet of ships a significant number of barrages to take the Rannoch Reaper down, and yet in London we see two weapons that fire contradictory to their entries in the codex take down two Reapers like if they were Brutes. 

Add on top of that the fact that a great many of the areas in London are basically rehashes of things from Shepard's memory, and it just seems way too fishy. This is supposed to be the stretch run of the trilogy, and they rehash everything and break lore while theyre at it? I dont buy it, personally. 

A really good way to test this is on Menae...can't remeber what the name of the weapon is (Blackstar, maybe), but you can pick up what is the Reaper equivalent to the Cain.  If you play your cards right you can actually take a shot at one of the Reapers off in the distance and see an impact...now assuming that it is of equivalent power, then why doesn't it take the Reaper down, like on Earth w/the Cain (and that is not even taking into account the homing).

And no I don't have a video and can't get one cause I am on 360.

Well, I should point out that the Reaper Destroyer on Earth was programed in the game code to be distructable.  I'm guessing the Menae Reapers were not.

Modifié par Dwailing, 11 juin 2012 - 03:31 .

[HellishFiend]

BleedingUranium wrote...

I don't know why they called them Thanix Missiles, because they were just Javelin Missiles. Same as the ones in the last N7 mission in ME2, where you have to save the colony. Scanning that same colony in ME3 gets you Javelin Missiles for the Crucible.

The only thing wrong with the ones in London is they're misnamed.

Are you saying Javelin Missiles can take down Destroyers? If that's the case, Destroyers should be dropping left and right like flies. 

Even if these weapons were real, they are nothing compared to ship weapons. And yet...

[D.Sharrah]

And now I must go to bed...work calls way too early!

[boeloe]

lex0r11 wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

lex0r11 wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

[...]

You know, come to think of it, the burned skeleton COULD be a shout out to the whole Shepard burning thing at the end of the last dream, although I should point out that it is accurate that all the skeletons look like that, so it might be a genuine case of reused asset.

REALLY like how creativity is lighting up again in this thread.
Lighting up. Huhu. Burned skeletons. Hihi.


Okay, sorry. I have to get home already to my bed..

I understand.  I'm heading to bed soon, too.  BTW, if you don't mind my asking, what country are you from?

I live in Germany. it's 5am over here.
Had this topic in the other thread. I work funny hours, part time military few times a month, part time earning money some other way. Being a student instead of trying to just paying bills. Seems to work just fine. Lulz.

Germany eh, are you a football fan perhaps, if so I guess I'll see wednesday...

[HellishFiend]

Dwailing wrote...

I should point out that one shot from the Cain in ME2 was enough to destroy the core of the Derelict Reaper in ME2, and it did SIGNIFICANT damage to the weak points of what was going to be a capital ship.

Noted, but that's far from justification for what we see in London. 

[lex0r11]

boeloe wrote...

[...]
Germany eh, are you a football fan perhaps, if so I guess I'll see wednesday...

I'm a sports fan and I like soccer. I'll watch the games of course.

Modifié par lex0r11, 11 juin 2012 - 03:35 .

[boeloe]

Andromidius wrote...

boeloe wrote...

Ok thanks.

In my opinion none of it is strong enough to able to say that Priority: Earth is hallucinated in its entire, but that something funky is going on is obvious.

The fact that large parts of the mission played without music is something which really bothered me, it never occured to me to connect this to IT though.

Yeah, its my view too.  Waking hallucinations altering reality a bit, at the very least.  Sort of like how people start seeing things that aren't there if they are sleep deprived or stressed to breaking point.

Yes, it also seems to be consistent with these videosequences of those cerberus scientist on the derelict reaper in ME2 where they start seeing things move and dissapear in the wall. It seems to be one of the stages of indoctrination.

[Dwailing]

HellishFiend wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

I should point out that one shot from the Cain in ME2 was enough to destroy the core of the Derelict Reaper in ME2, and it did SIGNIFICANT damage to the weak points of what was going to be a capital ship.

Noted, but that's far from justification for what we see in London. 

Yeah, that's true.  Honestly, thought, I'd be willing to write that off as Rule of Cool.  Maybe I'm blinded by my love of the Cain.

[HellishFiend]

Dwailing wrote...


Yeah, it IS weird that they didn't provide any description for the Thanix missles.  However, I should point out, with regards to the Cain, that the distance between the Reaper and Shepard, and the Banshee and Shepard was very different.  It's possible that Shepard had to turn down the power of the Cain (If it could have it's power level adjusted.) for dealing with the Banshee, due to how much closer it was.  Also, it's possible that there really wasn't enough distance for the tracking system to be needed, so it's possible that it just didn't kick in.

You're writing lore for the game and speculating on things that have no precedent.

IT is all fundamentally based on established lore, which is why it's believable. That's totally different from making unfounded guesses as to why things actually contradict the lore. 

Does that make sense?

[BleedingUranium]

HellishFiend wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

I don't know why they called them Thanix Missiles, because they were just Javelin Missiles. Same as the ones in the last N7 mission in ME2, where you have to save the colony. Scanning that same colony in ME3 gets you Javelin Missiles for the Crucible.

The only thing wrong with the ones in London is they're misnamed.

Are you saying Javelin Missiles can take down Destroyers? If that's the case, Destroyers should be dropping left and right like flies. 

Even if these weapons were real, they are nothing compared to ship weapons. And yet...

Nope, just saying they use the same model and function the same. We don't really know how powerful they are.

[boeloe]

lex0r11 wrote...

boeloe wrote...

[...]
Germany eh, are you a football fan perhaps, if so I guess I'll see wednesday...

I'm a sports fan and I like soccer. I'll watch the games of course.

I'm from the netherlands, that's why I asked.

[HellishFiend]

BleedingUranium wrote...


Nope, just saying they use the same model and function the same. We don't really know how powerful they are.

It stands to reason that if it can be mounted on a ground vehicle or carried by a ground troop, it's less powerful than a ship weapon. Again I'll point out that we see an entire fleet of ships relentlessly barrage a Destroyer at least half a dozen times before it goes down. It's safe to assume that the amount of destructive force in those barrages is astronomically higher than 2 Cains and 2 Thanix/Javelin missiles put together, and yet 1 Cain and 2 Missiles are enough to take down two Destroyers?

I'm not buying it. And that's even if the weapons DIDNT break the lore. They do. Which only adds to the unbelievability. 

Modifié par HellishFiend, 11 juin 2012 - 03:46 .

[gunslinger_ruiz]

HellishFiend wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

I should point out that one shot from the Cain in ME2 was enough to destroy the core of the Derelict Reaper in ME2, and it did SIGNIFICANT damage to the weak points of what was going to be a capital ship.

Noted, but that's far from justification for what we see in London. 

Just gonna jump in and say it's possible the Cain did so much damage to the Hades cannon because it exploded at the perfect spot once far enough inside the cannon. How it fires like I guided missile I have no idea.

[Dwailing]

HellishFiend wrote...

Dwailing wrote...


Yeah, it IS weird that they didn't provide any description for the Thanix missles.  However, I should point out, with regards to the Cain, that the distance between the Reaper and Shepard, and the Banshee and Shepard was very different.  It's possible that Shepard had to turn down the power of the Cain (If it could have it's power level adjusted.) for dealing with the Banshee, due to how much closer it was.  Also, it's possible that there really wasn't enough distance for the tracking system to be needed, so it's possible that it just didn't kick in.

You're writing lore for the game and speculating on things that have no precedent.

IT is all fundamentally based on established lore, which is why it's believable. That's totally different from making unfounded guesses as to why things actually contradict the lore. 

Does that make sense?

Yeah, that makes sense.