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[HellishFiend]

gunslinger_ruiz wrote...

Just gonna jump in and say it's possible the Cain did so much damage to the Hades cannon because it exploded at the perfect spot once far enough inside the cannon. How it fires like I guided missile I have no idea.

It's a moot point anyway since a Cain doesnt fire guided missiles. But even if it did, I wouldnt believe that it could so easily KO a Destroyer just by hitting in the perfect spot. 

[lex0r11]

boeloe wrote...

lex0r11 wrote...

boeloe wrote...

[...]
Germany eh, are you a football fan perhaps, if so I guess I'll see wednesday...

I'm a sports fan and I like soccer. I'll watch the games of course.

I'm from the netherlands, that's why I asked.

Looking forward to that game, thought the Netherlands-Denmark game was awkward and full of bad luck.

Don't care about the rivalry between Germany and Netherlands, I just know the game will be great. A lot at stake for two great teams.

Modifié par lex0r11, 11 juin 2012 - 03:50 .

[Dwailing]

So, lex, what do YOU think about the business with the Cain?

[gunslinger_ruiz]

HellishFiend wrote...

gunslinger_ruiz wrote...

Just gonna jump in and say it's possible the Cain did so much damage to the Hades cannon because it exploded at the perfect spot once far enough inside the cannon. How it fires like I guided missile I have no idea.

It's a moot point anyway since a Cain doesnt fire guided missiles. But even if it did, I wouldnt believe that it could so easily KO a Destroyer just by hitting in the perfect spot. 

I think it's also the Hades Cannon strapped to their backs, seems like a big weak spot if anything got in and exploded. Not impossible to think it runs along the same firing chamber as their main cannon and seems to open a big hole on it's back. But we really can't say for sure either way I don't think.

[Captain Scruff N7]

Has anyone been able to offer an explanation for why the players with a low EMS ONLY receive the destroy option as an ending? I support the IT and i'm not trying to refute it, but i'd still like to hear an explanation to that specific counter argument.

[HellishFiend]

gunslinger_ruiz wrote...

I think it's also the Hades Cannon strapped to their backs, seems like a big weak spot if anything got in and exploded. Not impossible to think it runs along the same firing chamber as their main cannon and seems to open a big hole on it's back. But we really can't say for sure either way I don't think.

That truth of the matter is that we have far more reason to think that a shot from a Cain would not take down a Destroyer, rather than thinking it would.

[gunslinger_ruiz]

Captain Scruff N7 wrote...

Has anyone been able to offer an explanation for why the players with a low EMS ONLY receive the destroy option as an ending? I support the IT and i'm not trying to refute it, but i'd still like to hear an explanation to that specific counter argument.

Not always the only option, if you played ME2 and saved the Collector Base, you only get Control with low EMS which is another odd thing.

Some like to think, from an IT standpoint, that you only get Destroy with low EMS (if youdestroyed the collector base in ME2 or have a default Shepard in ME3) it's sort of Bioware's way of letting you "wake up" by default choice but that's somewhat iffy when Control is your only option.

Another way of looking at it is the Reapers don't feel threatened by you enough with low EMS so they give you the only option in your brain, and whether or not you break free the war is still lost since EMS is too low. That's just an opinion though.

[gunslinger_ruiz]

HellishFiend wrote...

gunslinger_ruiz wrote...

I think it's also the Hades Cannon strapped to their backs, seems like a big weak spot if anything got in and exploded. Not impossible to think it runs along the same firing chamber as their main cannon and seems to open a big hole on it's back. But we really can't say for sure either way I don't think.

That truth of the matter is that we have far more reason to think that a shot from a Cain would not take down a Destroyer, rather than thinking it would.

I know, and very true it's ridiculous that a portable heavy weapon can take down any ship class above Fighter let alone damage it. BUT, it's not just a Destroyer it's a Destroyer with a big giant cannon strapped  to it's back. Top. Fringe, whatever. It's top segment.

[boeloe]

HellishFiend wrote...

gunslinger_ruiz wrote...

Just gonna jump in and say it's possible the Cain did so much damage to the Hades cannon because it exploded at the perfect spot once far enough inside the cannon. How it fires like I guided missile I have no idea.

It's a moot point anyway since a Cain doesnt fire guided missiles. But even if it did, I wouldnt believe that it could so easily KO a Destroyer just by hitting in the perfect spot.

Maybe it has something to do with a barrier field around the destroyer? That is the cain slug is moving in a straight line but the mass effect barrier field is distorting space so it looks like it is following a curved path?

lex0r11 wrote...

boeloe wrote...

lex0r11 wrote...

boeloe wrote...

[...]
Germany eh, are you a football fan perhaps, if so I guess I'll see wednesday...

I'm a sports fan and I like soccer. I'll watch the games of course.

I'm from the netherlands, that's why I asked.

Looking forward to that game, thought the Netherlands-Denmark game was awkward and full of bad luck.

Don't care about the rivalry between Germany and Netherlands, I just know the game will be great. A lot at stake for two great teams.

Same here.

[HellishFiend]

Captain Scruff N7 wrote...

Has anyone been able to offer an explanation for why the players with a low EMS ONLY receive the destroy option as an ending? I support the IT and i'm not trying to refute it, but i'd still like to hear an explanation to that specific counter argument.

It isnt really much of a counter argument if you think about it. The Starchild (or Starbinger as we call him) regards you with complete disdain if you show up with low EMS. For all intents and purposes he sounds disappointed with you. Also, he doesnt just offer you only destroy, he will offer you only control if you saved the collector base in ME2. 

So with low EMS, you get only one option, either destroy OR control. What does that mean? Well, we have no way to be 100% certain, but it seems to indicate that you are being given the option that you would most naturally gravitate towards. That combined with the fact that Starbinger seems pissed off with you, it stands to reason that they might simply not be trying very hard to indoctrinate you. 

[lex0r11]

Dwailing wrote...

So, lex, what do YOU think about the business with the Cain?

I don't really know how to talk about the handheld weapon of mass destruction. Lore wise, science wise?
Or am I missing something?

[HellishFiend]

boeloe wrote...

Maybe it has something to do with a barrier field around the destroyer? That is the cain slug is moving in a straight line but the mass effect barrier field is distorting space so it looks like it is following a curved path?

Again that is using guesswork to write new lore and explanations for things that contradict precedented lore. When have we ever had to do that in a Mass Effect game?

[HellishFiend]

gunslinger_ruiz wrote...

I know, and very true it's ridiculous that a portable heavy weapon can take down any ship class above Fighter let alone damage it. BUT, it's not just a Destroyer it's a Destroyer with a big giant cannon strapped  to it's back. Top. Fringe, whatever. It's top segment.

That line of thinking still involves guesswork-based explanations. 

[gunslinger_ruiz]

HellishFiend wrote...

gunslinger_ruiz wrote...

I know, and very true it's ridiculous that a portable heavy weapon can take down any ship class above Fighter let alone damage it. BUT, it's not just a Destroyer it's a Destroyer with a big giant cannon strapped  to it's back. Top. Fringe, whatever. It's top segment.

That line of thinking still involves guesswork-based explanations. 

Guesswork is the best kind of work really. Besides, just theorizing, don't have much in the way of fact to go with other than what we saw and have read.

[Fingertrip]

gunslinger_ruiz wrote...

Captain Scruff N7 wrote...

Has anyone been able to offer an explanation for why the players with a low EMS ONLY receive the destroy option as an ending? I support the IT and i'm not trying to refute it, but i'd still like to hear an explanation to that specific counter argument.

Not always the only option, if you played ME2 and saved the Collector Base, you only get Control with low EMS which is another odd thing.

Some like to think, from an IT standpoint, that you only get Destroy with low EMS (if youdestroyed the collector base in ME2 or have a default Shepard in ME3) it's sort of Bioware's way of letting you "wake up" by default choice but that's somewhat iffy when Control is your only option.

Another way of looking at it is the Reapers don't feel threatened by you enough with low EMS so they give you the only option in your brain, and whether or not you break free the war is still lost since EMS is too low. That's just an opinion though.

I personally find it rather compelling that if you destroy the Collector Base, low EMS- presented with the "Renegade" option which is Andersons Destroy, and keeping Collector Base = Control, presented as a Paragon. Should really be the other way around, shouldn't it? :innocent:

Keeping the Collector Base, is NOT a good thing, it's like sparing the good stuff for the Reapers to possibly reclaim if you ask me. Whereas destroying it, eliminates the option for the Reapers/Ceberus.

Everything seems to hint at the complete opposite in a way. 

[HellishFiend]

gunslinger_ruiz wrote...

Guesswork is the best kind of work really. Besides, just theorizing, don't have much in the way of fact to go with other than what we saw and have read.

I simply believe that in this case, we have more reason to theorize and guess that we are experiencing a partial or full hallucination during those sequences, rather than thinking they are happening at face value. 

[Arian Dynas]

We need a link to Salien Archer's EMS examination in the OP.

[HellishFiend]

Fingertrip wrote...


Keeping the Collector Base, is NOT a good thing, it's like sparing the good stuff for the Reapers to possibly reclaim if you ask me. Whereas destroying it, eliminates the option for the Reapers/Ceberus.

Everything seems to hint at the complete opposite in a way. 

Yes, except I think it's more of a matter of the theme in ME2 being that studying Reaper tech invariably leads to becoming indoctrinated. You're basically faced with main storyline missions full of information regarding how people have become indoctrinated, most of which involve being in close proximity to Reaper tech. Collectors use Reaper tech. So that decision basically boils down to whether or not you want to be working with more Reaper tech... 

[Dwailing]

You know, with the Cain, I think it comes down to this. Do you think something is weird in a cutscene when a gun that normally doesn't do that much damage suddenly kills in one or two bullets? We've never seen the Cain outside of gameplay, and gameplay story segregation could be in effect here. They needed to make it more powerful, so they did. Or, it could be that it really IS this powerful, it's just that they didn't make it this powerful in game to balance it.

Edit: I should point out also that it's either Anderson or Hackett who is the one who gives the order to send infantry armed with heavy weapons. I personally think saying that the Cain is weird might be stretching.

Modifié par Dwailing, 11 juin 2012 - 04:21 .

[HellishFiend]

Dwailing wrote...

You know, with the Cain, I think it comes down to this. Do you think something is weird in a cutscene when a gun that normally doesn't do that much damage suddenly kills in one or two bullets? We've never seen the Cain outside of gameplay, and gameplay story segregation could be in effect here. They needed to make it more powerful, so they did. Or, it could be that it really IS this powerful, it's just that they didn't make it this powerful in game to balance it.

As a storywriter, there are far better ways to handle that sort of thing than contradicting yourself. The mere presence of the codex indicates that BW takes the Mass Effect lore very seriously, and they want you to have full access to all of that information when you want to look it up. They just arent the type to invoke creative liberties to that extreme, especially not in the penultimate sequence of the game. 

[Dwailing]

HellishFiend wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

You know, with the Cain, I think it comes down to this. Do you think something is weird in a cutscene when a gun that normally doesn't do that much damage suddenly kills in one or two bullets? We've never seen the Cain outside of gameplay, and gameplay story segregation could be in effect here. They needed to make it more powerful, so they did. Or, it could be that it really IS this powerful, it's just that they didn't make it this powerful in game to balance it.

As a storywriter, there are far better ways to handle that sort of thing than contradicting yourself. The mere presence of the codex indicates that BW takes the Mass Effect lore very seriously, and they want you to have full access to all of that information when you want to look it up. They just arent the type to invoke creative liberties to that extreme, especially not in the penultimate sequence of the game. 

They actually did include a codex entry for the Cain this time around. The description of how it works is seriously impressive. Did you have a chance to read it?

[EpyonX3]

Andromidius wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

That's different. It's not broken lore. In that case, they gave a sci-fi plausible explanation for why they did it. Does it follow common sense? No. But it's still sci-fi plausible, and is explained well enough to make it believable. 

That isnt the case in London. Weapons dont work the way they should, with no explanation as to why. One of the weapons doesnt even have a codex entry. Reaper Destroyers dont take as much punishment before going down as they should. There is no precedent for that. To my knowledge, this is the only time in the entire trilogy that they blatantly break their own lore without trying to tweak it first so that it works and remains sci fi plausible. 

Well we can differ on the usage of 'lore breaks'   Its a minor issue, even the deal with why even old guns use thermal clips now...  Its a gameplay element, and I can live with it.

But yeah, the whole Missile issue is messed up.  Even if we just assume they are Javalins, why can they kill Destroyers so easily?  If they always could, why aren't they the main armament of every starship? 

Same deal with Cains - they magically grow in strength if you point them at a Reaper?

Weak points.

When you hit the destroyer with the cannon, you hit it right in the eye, which is where you hit the rannoch destroyer. That shot left it open to many other cannon shots all around its body. So much damage all at once is probably going to take the destroyer down or at least knock it out.

The cain does the same thing. It lands in a spot not protected by reaper armor and destroys it from inside. Also, as Hellish knows, the cain is able to move toward a target after it is fired. However, I did try to replicate it in ME3 and it went straight ahead. Maybe they changed it IDK.

[Dwailing]

Well, I'm off for the night. See you all tomorrow.

[lex0r11]

Dwailing wrote...

You know, with the Cain, I think it comes down to this. Do you think something is weird in a cutscene when a gun that normally doesn't do that much damage suddenly kills in one or two bullets? We've never seen the Cain outside of gameplay, and gameplay story segregation could be in effect here. They needed to make it more powerful, so they did. Or, it could be that it really IS this powerful, it's just that they didn't make it this powerful in game to balance it.

Edit: I should point out also that it's either Anderson or Hackett who is the one who gives the order to send infantry armed with heavy weapons. I personally think saying that the Cain is weird might be stretching.

Well, it's almost like how the characters in cutscenes are always using these "weak" weapons people barely use in fights itself. Pistols just look cooler than other weapons I guess. There is almost a reason for anything.

[HellishFiend]

Dwailing wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

You know, with the Cain, I think it comes down to this. Do you think something is weird in a cutscene when a gun that normally doesn't do that much damage suddenly kills in one or two bullets? We've never seen the Cain outside of gameplay, and gameplay story segregation could be in effect here. They needed to make it more powerful, so they did. Or, it could be that it really IS this powerful, it's just that they didn't make it this powerful in game to balance it.

As a storywriter, there are far better ways to handle that sort of thing than contradicting yourself. The mere presence of the codex indicates that BW takes the Mass Effect lore very seriously, and they want you to have full access to all of that information when you want to look it up. They just arent the type to invoke creative liberties to that extreme, especially not in the penultimate sequence of the game. 

They actually did include a codex entry for the Cain this time around. The description of how it works is seriously impressive. Did you have a chance to read it?

Of course I did, that is why I feel so strongly about this Cain issue in the first place!