55528 réponses à ce sujet

[byne]

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

It takes 3 Dreadnoughts to down 1 Sovereign class Reaper, that is fact given to us by the game.

Yeah, but thats if we just sit there shooting at the Reapers.

Pull Fall of Thessia tactics on the Reapers and you have a better shot:

From the Fall of Thessia codex entry...

The assault on Thessia did not go as smoothly as the Reapers' strikes against other races. While other species met the Reapers head-on, the asari resorted to dangerous hit-and-run tactics to harass their attackers. By engaging in guerilla strategies--blast a Reaper ship, then jumping to FTL where they could not be tracked--the asari forced the Reapers to remain on the defensive.

Unfortunately, the Reapers' greater numbers allowed them to accept certain losses, so they soon ignored the attacks against them and began orbital bombardment of Thessia. This in turn forced the asari to defend their homeworld with a more traditional stance, facing the Reaper forces directly. As soon as the Reapers landed on Thessia, the harvesting began.

Since Earth is pretty much a smoking ruin at this point, we wouldnt really be forced to stop an orbital bombardment, we could continue hit and run tactics, and the fight might turn in our favor.

[balance5050]

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

Yeaaahhh.... I said "think outside the box....."

Modifié par balance5050, 11 juin 2012 - 07:45 .

[Riot86]

byne wrote...

DJBare wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

DJBare wrote...

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

So you dont want a Reaper off button, but atomaticly dismiss a potential weapon which would turn the odds in our favor, but without making it instant win?

Also if it is mass indoctrination device (not even mentioning that Indoctrination is never shown as Instantanoius as it would have to eb to have any effect on the ongoing battle) would mean an instant loss? Even if Shepard destroys it the fleet is gonna be wiped out.

Ahh, you are in the goup that considers it impossible to defeat the reapers conventionally?

I actually consider an all out conventional attack to be impossible also, but every chain has it's weak link, and in this case I believe that weak link is harbinger, which is why you never have a direct confrontation with him.

You know the movie 300? It was based on a comic but the comic was (loosely) based on real events. We may be outnumbered and out gunned but our ingeuity and ability to think outside the box gives us a chance at conventional victory.

Precisely, we have been following a technological path that has been laid out by the reapers, and our weapons are based on reaper tech, so reapers are well aware of our capabilities since it was them that gave us those capabilities, the only way to defeat them is to stop following their path and technology, change our way of thinking and you screw up the reapers main strategy.

Yeah, didnt Javik say that the diverse ways of thinking and fighting all the different species had was our greatest strength in the war?

He did

Also he said, he didn't put any faith in the Crucible in the Prothean Cicle...he rather trusted his weapons, meaning Javik believed a conventinal victory could have been possible.

In his cicle this ultimately failed due to the lack of diversity among the Protheans...but diversity is something this Cicle surely has.

Modifié par Riot86, 11 juin 2012 - 07:47 .

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

byne wrote...

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

It takes 3 Dreadnoughts to down 1 Sovereign class Reaper, that is fact given to us by the game.

Yeah, but thats if we just sit there shooting at the Reapers.

Pull Fall of Thessia tactics on the Reapers and you have a better shot:

From the Fall of Thessia codex entry...

The assault on Thessia did not go as smoothly as the Reapers' strikes against other races. While other species met the Reapers head-on, the asari resorted to dangerous hit-and-run tactics to harass their attackers. By engaging in guerilla strategies--blast a Reaper ship, then jumping to FTL where they could not be tracked--the asari forced the Reapers to remain on the defensive.

Unfortunately, the Reapers' greater numbers allowed them to accept certain losses, so they soon ignored the attacks against them and began orbital bombardment of Thessia. This in turn forced the asari to defend their homeworld with a more traditional stance, facing the Reaper forces directly. As soon as the Reapers landed on Thessia, the harvesting began.

Since Earth is pretty much a smoking ruin at this point, we wouldnt really be forced to stop an orbital bombardment, we could continue hit and run tactics, and the fight might turn in our favor.

Not really, the Reapers are facing outwards from Earth. We cant drop in behidn them due to that and the moment we drop in from the front they can shot as much as we can.

Also just to say that is not how the battle is depcited at all. It is depcited as straight stand up fight with the intention of creating a safe path for the Crucible.

Just alying out the facts here. We are attcking the Reapers head on in a desperate battle to deploy the Crucible. There is no stealthy tactics or anything at work here according to everything we know. Every piece of faith is placed in the Crucible.

And under those conditions we cannot win with the numbers presented to us.

Modifié par Raistlin Majare 1992, 11 juin 2012 - 07:48 .

[byne]

balance5050 wrote...

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

Ill break this down in numbers again.

It takes 3 Dreadnoughts to down 1 Sovereign class Reaper, that is fact given to us by the game.

There are around 100-150 Sovereign class Reapers at earth from teh count I made based on an in game cinematic.

We have at the very best in our fleet just over 200 Dreadnougts and that is pre war numbers. The actual number is probably around 50-75 dreadnoughts lower if I was to give an estimate, possibly even lower than that considering we have suffered severe losses.

So we ahve a situation where we macth the Sovereign class reapers awith our Dreadnoughts on something like a 1 to 1 basis while we need a 1 to 3 basis for conventional victory.

We have to pull a serius rabbit out of the hat for that victory.

Yeaaahhh.... I said "think outside the box....."

Hey, the box is there for a reason. I like thinking inside of it. I feel safe in there. - Private Tucker, Red vs Blue.

[masster blaster]

byne wrote...

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

It takes 3 Dreadnoughts to down 1 Sovereign class Reaper, that is fact given to us by the game.

Yeah, but thats if we just sit there shooting at the Reapers.

Pull Fall of Thessia tactics on the Reapers and you have a better shot:

From the Fall of Thessia codex entry...

The assault on Thessia did not go as smoothly as the Reapers' strikes against other races. While other species met the Reapers head-on, the asari resorted to dangerous hit-and-run tactics to harass their attackers. By engaging in guerilla strategies--blast a Reaper ship, then jumping to FTL where they could not be tracked--the asari forced the Reapers to remain on the defensive.

Unfortunately, the Reapers' greater numbers allowed them to accept certain losses, so they soon ignored the attacks against them and began orbital bombardment of Thessia. This in turn forced the asari to defend their homeworld with a more traditional stance, facing the Reaper forces directly. As soon as the Reapers landed on Thessia, the harvesting began.

Since Earth is pretty much a smoking ruin at this point, we wouldnt really be forced to stop an orbital bombardment, we could continue hit and run tactics, and the fight might turn in our favor.

So does this mean the fleets can do the same thing what the Asari did. Shepard why did you use this tatic in the first place, or that's right your pissed off.

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

balance5050 wrote...

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

Yeaaahhh.... I said "think outside the box....."

Then how about you do it for that battle.

Use the layout from my last post along with this:

You are attacking the Reaper forces head on your only hope and every piece of faith placed in your forces ability to carve a safe path for the Crucible to reach the Citadel that is all that matters according to everything we are told.

Now tell me what outside of the box thinking which can turn it around.

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

masster blaster wrote...

byne wrote...

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

It takes 3 Dreadnoughts to down 1 Sovereign class Reaper, that is fact given to us by the game.

Yeah, but thats if we just sit there shooting at the Reapers.

Pull Fall of Thessia tactics on the Reapers and you have a better shot:

From the Fall of Thessia codex entry...

The assault on Thessia did not go as smoothly as the Reapers' strikes against other races. While other species met the Reapers head-on, the asari resorted to dangerous hit-and-run tactics to harass their attackers. By engaging in guerilla strategies--blast a Reaper ship, then jumping to FTL where they could not be tracked--the asari forced the Reapers to remain on the defensive.

Unfortunately, the Reapers' greater numbers allowed them to accept certain losses, so they soon ignored the attacks against them and began orbital bombardment of Thessia. This in turn forced the asari to defend their homeworld with a more traditional stance, facing the Reaper forces directly. As soon as the Reapers landed on Thessia, the harvesting began.

Since Earth is pretty much a smoking ruin at this point, we wouldnt really be forced to stop an orbital bombardment, we could continue hit and run tactics, and the fight might turn in our favor.

So does this mean the fleets can do the same thing what the Asari did. Shepard why did you use this tatic in the first place, or that's right your pissed off.

I just pointed that out in my last post...the Reapers the way they are positioned are using earth to cover their backs, you cannot jump in behind them for a quick strike if their blind spot is covered by a planet.

No offense but all of you seem to be talking from a point of view where Shepard and everyone else knows the Crucible is a trap, but they dont. Their whole force is centered around protecting it because they beleive it can win the war for them. That is all that matters to those in the fleet.

By the time the fleet realizes it is trap and the Crucible dosent work any fancy manuvers and elaborate strategies will be too late as the fight has allready moved to point blank knife fights. Such fights have always been about brute strength...and the Reapers have us outmatched in that regard.

Modifié par Raistlin Majare 1992, 11 juin 2012 - 07:54 .

[balance5050]

Riot86 wrote...

He did

Also he said, he didn't put any faith in the Crucible in the Prothean Cicle...he rather trusted his weapons, meaning Javik believed a conventinal victory could have been possible.

In his cicle this ultimately failed due to the lack of diversity among the Protheans...but diversity is something this Cicle surely has.

I think his (Javic's) raw emotion helped him to fight indoctrination, no?

[masster blaster]

Riot86 wrote...

byne wrote...

DJBare wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

DJBare wrote...

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

So you dont want a Reaper off button, but atomaticly dismiss a potential weapon which would turn the odds in our favor, but without making it instant win?

Also if it is mass indoctrination device (not even mentioning that Indoctrination is never shown as Instantanoius as it would have to eb to have any effect on the ongoing battle) would mean an instant loss? Even if Shepard destroys it the fleet is gonna be wiped out.

Ahh, you are in the goup that considers it impossible to defeat the reapers conventionally?

I actually consider an all out conventional attack to be impossible also, but every chain has it's weak link, and in this case I believe that weak link is harbinger, which is why you never have a direct confrontation with him.

You know the movie 300? It was based on a comic but the comic was (loosely) based on real events. We may be outnumbered and out gunned but our ingeuity and ability to think outside the box gives us a chance at conventional victory.

Precisely, we have been following a technological path that has been laid out by the reapers, and our weapons are based on reaper tech, so reapers are well aware of our capabilities since it was them that gave us those capabilities, the only way to defeat them is to stop following their path and technology, change our way of thinking and you screw up the reapers main strategy.

Yeah, didnt Javik say that the diverse ways of thinking and fighting all the different species had was our greatest strength in the war?

He did

Also he said, he didn't put any faith in the Crucible in the Prothean Cicle...he rather trusted his weapons, meaning Javik believed a conventinal victory could have been possible.

In his cicle this ultimately failed due to the lack of diversity among the Protheans...but diversity is something this Cicle surely has.

Yes but I guess Hackitt does not think so, but hay If they did then I say use the Crucible as a time boom for the Reapers and blow the Crucible up alng with a good amount of Reapers and there's your victory right there.

[balance5050]

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

Yeaaahhh.... I said "think outside the box....."

Then how about you do it for that battle.

Use the layout from my last post along with this:

You are attacking the Reaper forces head on your only hope and every piece of faith placed in your forces ability to carve a safe path for the Crucible to reach the Citadel that is all that matters according to everything we are told.

Now tell me what outside of the box thinking which can turn it around.

Maybe there are troops that were forgetting about that haven't made it to the battle yet, like the Volus fleet or something. All I know is that nothing's impossible, especially if you have hope....


EDIT: The Rachni... 'nuff said.

Modifié par balance5050, 11 juin 2012 - 07:58 .

[masster blaster]

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

masster blaster wrote...

byne wrote...

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

It takes 3 Dreadnoughts to down 1 Sovereign class Reaper, that is fact given to us by the game.

Yeah, but thats if we just sit there shooting at the Reapers.

Pull Fall of Thessia tactics on the Reapers and you have a better shot:

From the Fall of Thessia codex entry...

The assault on Thessia did not go as smoothly as the Reapers' strikes against other races. While other species met the Reapers head-on, the asari resorted to dangerous hit-and-run tactics to harass their attackers. By engaging in guerilla strategies--blast a Reaper ship, then jumping to FTL where they could not be tracked--the asari forced the Reapers to remain on the defensive.

Unfortunately, the Reapers' greater numbers allowed them to accept certain losses, so they soon ignored the attacks against them and began orbital bombardment of Thessia. This in turn forced the asari to defend their homeworld with a more traditional stance, facing the Reaper forces directly. As soon as the Reapers landed on Thessia, the harvesting began.

Since Earth is pretty much a smoking ruin at this point, we wouldnt really be forced to stop an orbital bombardment, we could continue hit and run tactics, and the fight might turn in our favor.

So does this mean the fleets can do the same thing what the Asari did. Shepard why did you use this tatic in the first place, or that's right your pissed off.

I just pointed that out in my last post...the Reapers the way they are positioned are using earth to cover their backs, you cannot jump in behind them for a quick strike if their blind spot is covered by a planet.

Yes but if they got starit into Earth's ozone layers then star whiping out the Reaper ground forces they can clear a way for Hammer and they could sneak a small amada to  get the Reapers from behind.

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

masster blaster wrote...

Yes but if they got starit into Earth's ozone layers then star whiping out the Reaper ground forces they can clear a way for Hammer and they could sneak a small amada to  get the Reapers from behind.

Sneak a small armada? Like landing it on the surface?

Our entire force (except for shield fleet which is covering the Crucible)  is locked in battle with the Reapers at this moment, there is no small armada to sneak by them. Every ship is in battle.

Modifié par Raistlin Majare 1992, 11 juin 2012 - 08:01 .

[masster blaster]

You know they should have added Take back Earth trailer if they wanted to finish the fight for Shepard after gathering all the War assets, was landing on Earth, and yes if you have a male Shepard, or Female Shepard it will show either one of the trailers depending on your Shepard's gender.

[masster blaster]

[quote]Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

[quote]masster blaster wrote...


I just pointed that out in my last post...the Reapers the way they are positioned are using earth to cover their backs, you cannot jump in behind them for a quick strike if their blind spot is covered by a planet.
[/quote]
Yes but if they got starit into Earth's ozone layers then star whiping out the Reaper ground forces they can clear a way for Hammer and they could sneak a small amada to  get the Reapers from behind.

[/quote]

Sneak a small armada? Like landing it on the surface?

Our entire force (except for shield fleet which is covering the Crucible)  is locked in battle with the Reapers at this moment, there is no small armada to sneak by them. Every ship is in battle.

[/quote]

I ment the Normandy and the small fleet we saw in the Take back Earth Trailer.

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

balance5050 wrote...

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

Yeaaahhh.... I said "think outside the box....."

Then how about you do it for that battle.

Use the layout from my last post along with this:

You are attacking the Reaper forces head on your only hope and every piece of faith placed in your forces ability to carve a safe path for the Crucible to reach the Citadel that is all that matters according to everything we are told.

Now tell me what outside of the box thinking which can turn it around.

Maybe there are troops that were forgetting about that haven't made it to the battle yet, like the Volus fleet or something. All I know is that nothing's impossible, especially if you have hope....

They call together every fleet before the battel begins, there is nothing indicating there are more to get anywhere. Even the Volus must be there considering they are war assets, war asets we must assume are used in that final fleet battle. Considering their allaince with the Turians their forces probably count under the Turian fleet.

[masster blaster]

Oh did we tell Bioware don't forget the Drell combat forces in the EC, in the battle for Earth.

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

masster blaster wrote...

I ment the Normandy and the small fleet we saw in the Take back Earth Trailer.

That is Fighters with a single Friagte (the Normandy) they cannot hit the Reapers blind spot in the way you suggest as the Fighters as well as their weapons are vulnerable to the GARDIAN system which is situated all aroudn the Reapers body, not just the front (dont come saying we dont know that because the Reapers are seriusly stupid if they dont cover their abcks with GARDIAN)

Also Frigates might be fast enough to get around the Reapers, but lack the firepower to take down a Reaper and get away before they can retaliate.

Modifié par Raistlin Majare 1992, 11 juin 2012 - 08:04 .

[masster blaster]

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

Yeaaahhh.... I said "think outside the box....."

Then how about you do it for that battle.

Use the layout from my last post along with this:

You are attacking the Reaper forces head on your only hope and every piece of faith placed in your forces ability to carve a safe path for the Crucible to reach the Citadel that is all that matters according to everything we are told.

Now tell me what outside of the box thinking which can turn it around.

Maybe there are troops that were forgetting about that haven't made it to the battle yet, like the Volus fleet or something. All I know is that nothing's impossible, especially if you have hope....

They call together every fleet before the battel begins, there is nothing indicating there are more to get anywhere. Even the Volus must be there considering they are war assets, war asets we must assume are used in that final fleet battle. Considering their allaince with the Turians their forces probably count under the Turian fleet.

Um If everyone listened to Shepard about the Reapers are coming, then yes I can see what they are saying, and it would be pricles to see Harbys face when it see all of the galaxys armys, and fleets at Earth waiting for them.

[Ytook]

I agree with those who think the crucible is a trap but I personally think that it has no mechanical function at all, it's simply a gauge of a civilisation. Plans that are difficult to execute but hint at something, it's a way of showing whether a culture is advanced enough to build it and if they are they are a threat to the reapers (a 'you must be this tall to go on this ride' type arrangement). Also in building it you waste countless resources and ultimately the reapers use it to drag you into a killing ground with false objectives and false hope, a guerrilla war against the reapers would be devastating to them (even if they would ultimately win, the fact that they produce only one Sovreign class ship a cycle makes even the slightest loss to them a massive long term hit).

I've thought since the first game that the reapers must have a kind of deified dictator at the helm, it would be utterly impossible to coordinate a group of individual nations to act with such unity of purpose and action for such an immense length of time otherwise. Which is why I like the idea that taking out Harbinger as Shep is ultimately the key, doing so does not guarantee victory (you would still lose with low EMS) but it would 'soften' the reapers up a bit as they lose coordination and an overall strategy, you would then achieve a degree of victory (or loss based) on EMS.

Also I'm not sure if this works with the lore entirely (I'm far from an expert) but I was hoping that failing the indoctrination attempt would grant you the knowledge to manipulate the mass relays from the citadel giving you a big last minute boost to your EMS but Shep ultimately dies because of the shear force of will needed to resist indoctrination and use the citadel. While if you pass the indoctrination the best victory is harder (though not impossible) but Shep lives.

[masster blaster]

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

masster blaster wrote...

I ment the Normandy and the small fleet we saw in the Take back Earth Trailer.

That is Fighters with a single Friagte (the Normandy) they cannot hit the Reapers blind spot in the way you suggest as the Fighters as well as their weapons are vulnerable to the GARDIAN system which is situated all aroudn the Reapers body, not just the front (dont come saying we dont know that because the Reapers are seriusly stupid if they dont cover their abcks with GARDIAN)

but they don't since turinan forces got into the Reapers and blow them to kingdom come.

[masster blaster]

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

masster blaster wrote...

I ment the Normandy and the small fleet we saw in the Take back Earth Trailer.

That is Fighters with a single Friagte (the Normandy) they cannot hit the Reapers blind spot in the way you suggest as the Fighters as well as their weapons are vulnerable to the GARDIAN system which is situated all aroudn the Reapers body, not just the front (dont come saying we dont know that because the Reapers are seriusly stupid if they dont cover their abcks with GARDIAN)

Also Frigates might be fast enough to get around the Reapers, but lack the firepower to take down a Reaper and get away before they can retaliate.

You forgot the small fleet at the end of the trailer, not just the fighters.

[DJBare]

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

balance5050 wrote...

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

Yeaaahhh.... I said "think outside the box....."

Then how about you do it for that battle.

Use the layout from my last post along with this:

You are attacking the Reaper forces head on your only hope and every piece of faith placed in your forces ability to carve a safe path for the Crucible to reach the Citadel that is all that matters according to everything we are told.

Now tell me what outside of the box thinking which can turn it around.

Is that the only conventional plan you can come up with?, from your posts it appears so, there are other methods of conventional warfare that do not require direct confrontation, as I stated earlier, every chain has it's weak link, and it's that you look for, there is no way we could win in a direct confrontation, but there maybe other ways, I can think of at least one other way, can you?

[D.Sharrah]

D.Sharrah wrote...

Reposted due to being lost in the thread...

D.Sharrah wrote...

D.Sharrah wrote...

Byne - Any thoughts on updating the OP? It would be cool if there were links for the following...

Memorial Wall - IT Memorial Wall for all those that have contributed
Arian's Marketing Theory
Arian's Script
Prettz gun change video when finished

Anyone else think of anything?

Edited for clarification of Memorial Wall.  Reposted to make sure that Byne sees it and to re-emphasize the bolded question at the bottom.

Reposted and...

Arian Dynas wrote...

We need a link to Salien Archer's EMS examination in the OP.

[masster blaster]

Ytook wrote...

I agree with those who think the crucible is a trap but I personally think that it has no mechanical function at all, it's simply a gauge of a civilisation. Plans that are difficult to execute but hint at something, it's a way of showing whether a culture is advanced enough to build it and if they are they are a threat to the reapers (a 'you must be this tall to go on this ride' type arrangement). Also in building it you waste countless resources and ultimately the reapers use it to drag you into a killing ground with false objectives and false hope, a guerrilla war against the reapers would be devastating to them (even if they would ultimately win, the fact that they produce only one Sovreign class ship a cycle makes even the slightest loss to them a massive long term hit).

I've thought since the first game that the reapers must have a kind of deified dictator at the helm, it would be utterly impossible to coordinate a group of individual nations to act with such unity of purpose and action for such an immense length of time otherwise. Which is why I like the idea that taking out Harbinger as Shep is ultimately the key, doing so does not guarantee victory (you would still lose with low EMS) but it would 'soften' the reapers up a bit as they lose coordination and an overall strategy, you would then achieve a degree of victory (or loss based) on EMS.

Also I'm not sure if this works with the lore entirely (I'm far from an expert) but I was hoping that failing the indoctrination attempt would grant you the knowledge to manipulate the mass relays from the citadel giving you a big last minute boost to your EMS but Shep ultimately dies because of the shear force of will needed to resist indoctrination and use the citadel. While if you pass the indoctrination the best victory is harder (though not impossible) but Shep lives.

Ya but if Shepard wakes up who would save Shepard, and for one is bleeding the **** out in a huge clusters of ruble.