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Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark II!


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#17801
estebanus

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byne wrote...

GloryToChaos wrote...

Vox Draco wrote...

GloryToChaos wrote...
So let's talk about defense mechanisms, in particular, denial. We all agree, the ending was terrible, nonsensical and inconclusive. What it came down to was most people accepting that the ending was tragically awful and battering BIOWARE for a remake or a fix, etc, etc, etc. And then of course there are the people that went off the deep end, compiled an obsessive amount of details in order to create a fantastical ending to replace to the real one because they can't accept their own disappointment at the ending of the franchise.


So basically IT-lers try to get over their grief by being constructive, creative and optimistic, instead of giving in to endless hatred, cynism and defeatism?

This may lead to more disapointement in the end maybe, but at least IT-lers can claim one thing: They proofed that Bioware could have been so much better if they had actually tried...and for me, It-lers have won even if IT is never confirmed, because IT and everything about it is way superior than any literal explanation of teh current endings...and could lead to a far more worthy ending of the series, based on the Mass Effect Lore...



No, what I said was that ITers dealt with their grief with denial, which is the first stage.


Can you please tell me what we're denying, exactly? We all admit that if taken literally the endings suck harder than anything has sucked in a long time. No denial there.



Exactly. Denial would be thinking that the endings are great no matter what, which we don't believe. As a matter of fact, I've seldom seen a videogame screw this badly up in the ending. If the IT isn't true, then it sucks. Simple as that.

People don't sound smart just because they throw the Kübler-Ross model and Hanlon's razor around where they don't fit in.

For me, the IT just shows a way how the endings could mean something different entirely than what we were shown, but I've already been over those stages a long time ago. Now, I'm mostly speculating here because it's fun and because of the awesome people in here!

#17802
estebanus

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paxxton wrote...

estebanus wrote...

paxxton wrote...

estebanus wrote...

paxxton wrote...

GloryToChaos wrote...

paxxton wrote...

GloryToChaos wrote...

Have you ever heard of the church of Scientology? I have a feeling you'd like it.

Why do you think so?


Something about a crazy cult that believes all kinds of fantastical nonsense about space aliens.

Anyways, I did ask a serious question, if indoctrination is indeed the answer, how does it explain the crash-landing scenes and the thing with the the stargazer? All the videos tended to gloss over it

The Stargazer scene is BioWare teasing players (that despite Mass Effect 3 is over there is still more to come about Shepard at an unspecified future time). The crash landing can be easily explained if you have ever expierienced dreams while sleeping. Events there usually break causality which means they happen without reason and usually have no meaning (or sense).



It could also mean a way of Shepard comforting him/herself. What is most important to Shepard? His/her crew. The Normandy scene could just be a way of Shepard comforting him/herself, imagining that his/her crew made it away safely.

See it as a final scene of comfort before Shepard completely gives in to the reapers or breaks free of the attempt.

Exactly. Considering that during a dream humans don't think clearly Shepard's friends stranded on a deserted planet with wild animals and no immediate way to survive might give him lots of comfort.



Missing the point.

As far as Shepard knows, the Mass Relays blow up, right? S/he has no way of knowing if the explosions killed everyone or if they didn't. What did a lot of Shepard's friends want to do? They wanted to retire to a tropical beach somewhere far away where they could live in peace for the rest of their lives. I think that it symbolizes that. In adream, you don't think about the implications of what just happened, do you? At least not immediately.

This is what I meant. Posted Image



Oh, well then I misunderstood you post. Sorry.

#17803
Raistlin Majare 1992

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Okay everyone I have spend enough time discussing other theories as to what the Crucible is or what happens, now I am going to post an idea of my own. Hang with me cause this is gonna be long.

To start of what do we know of the Crucible. Well, it is not much, but there is one thing we know for certain. It si capable of generating unquantifiable levels of energy and on that basis alone it is interesting, but let us keep that here for now.

Many have presented based on the convenience of the location of the Crucible plans that it is planted by the Reapers as a trap. I fully support this idea to an extent.

To sum this up I believe that the best lies always carry a grain of truth.I think the Crucible was indeed at some point a superweapon against theReapers, possibly the one causing the Klendragon rift, but the Reapers got their hands (tentacles) on the plans and saw an opputunity. Instead of just destroying them, they modified the plans, removed an important component (essentially the Catalyst) and made the describtions of it vague before leaving it for future cycles to find.

It would makesense that the plans are genuine to some degree because else I doubt the Sciencetists wokring on it would not have realized something was of.If you build something and yet it seemed to do nothing, would you not
get suspicious?

But without the Catalyst the Crucible dosent work and only the Reapers know what the Catalyst is and can freely leave fake Catalysts for luring enemy forces into traps or forcing direct confrontations even as the species of the Cycle waste resources buildinga weapon they cannot use.

But i believe victory at Earth comes from finding the true Catalyst and making the Crucible work. How are we
gonna do that? Well my idea lies with an old player in this game, one that was once a friend and now an enemy. The Illusive Man.

Now bear with me for a moment as I explain.

If the scene of TIM on the Citadel is a halucination we dont know where heis, in fact we dont even know if he has succumbed to indoctrination. Now I am not saying he has never been Indoctrinated, it is clear that he is to at least some degree, but how much?

How much did he know? Eva managed to get the Crucible plans , though how do we know she dident manage to transmit them to TIM as she ran? There was even other Cerberus forces still there she could have transmitted them too.

He alos steals the VI on Thessia from us, something it is allready curouis that he knew about and as such he
knows about the Catalyst, or at least what the VI says is the Catalyst. Same Vi that laters says he warned the Reapers and headed for the Citadel.

Before I move on another curouis thing is the surgery TIM goes through. If the TIM scene on the Citadel is fake then what did he get planted in his body there? Transmitters for that husk control signal? Possibly, but what it was more than that.

Remember what  Miranda said about a control chip, that there was none in Shepard. Just because there is none in Shepard dosent mean that none ever had one. TIM already experimented with controlling people and with AI´s and he is no fool either.

Now you probably want me to get to the point, so here it is. I think TIM might be the key to making the Crucible working, that he possibly knows what the true Catalyst is and where  to find it and has been preparing in more ways than one for what is coming.

Imagine he was truly  on the Citadel, but had been prearing for the Crucible to be connected, either with the real catalyst or using some sort of bypass deviced by himself transferring the Crucibles power into different systems thus making it a weapon. Possibly fully Indoctrinated at this point, but thatis something he prepared for ahead of time in the surgery. A control chip in his mind along with a sophisticated VI or AI to seize control ofhim the moment a trigger is hit, like Shepard showing up. (I wont try to get into how Shepard gets there as that is different theory
souroudning that beam in London.)

At this point he would explain what would need to be done, perhaps even as the AI/Vi struggled with the
Indoctrinated body. This would culminate as Harbinger assumes direct control of TIM focing our "final boss encounter," after which you can activate the Crucible.

What does it do? Well that is a good question. You all know my idea of Mass Accelerator Cannon which could
feasibly even the odds without beeing a Reaper of button. Though i personally dont like it, it is possible TIM could use the Crucible to magnifyhis husk control signal to affect the Reapers, but i would personally find such an ending...well let us not get into that shall we, what the Crucible exactly does can be debated for a million times and we wont get any closer before EC.

This would give TIM a pupose in the ending, one that is not that of a complete villian, but still following
the Ideals he made Cerberus on right up until the end and we get our fight with Harbinger.

Also just a minor point about TIM. I personally beleive he is well aware of the threat Indoctrination
posses, he would be pretty stupid to be fumbling around with that exact kind of ressearch and never eevn consider that he might be affected. Offcourse considering the Normandy crew dosent do that, it is possible he really never gave it thought, but it would seem strange with his obsession with control that he never thinks that he can be controlled.

And that is where the idea of control chip for TIM comes. If he indeed gaveit a thought, he would probably have been prepared. Sacrificing even his own freedom for his ideals would be a powerful end for him, one way
more fitting than just Indoctrinated puppet if you ask me. Also it wouldprove that his ressearch of the Reapers in the end did pay of even if the cost was terrible.

But tell me what you think, it is your turn to hit me with your questions, but as always in this thread I point
out it is just a theory [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/wink.png[/smilie]

But no matter how you take this theory I beg that you remember that no matter what you think, the Crucible dosent do nothing. We know it is capable of generating unquantifiable levels of energy and that energy has to go somewhere.

Edit: Goddamn I dont know what happened but something ****ed up the layout of my post. Clearing it up.

Modifié par Raistlin Majare 1992, 12 juin 2012 - 09:38 .


#17804
byne

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Lex0r, are you here? If you want to keep up your streak of being first post on every thousandth page, you're gonna need to top page 714. Just a heads up.

Also! Only one page to go till we (technically) hit page 3000!

Also part 2! Farming Arcane Crystals in WoW sucks hard.

#17805
munnellyladt

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I heard that Jesica Marizan(sorry,might have spelt name wrong)said that shepard is on the citedel in a twiter post,and this puts me off for a bit because an important part of IT is about shepard waking up from indoctrination in London.

does anybody know if this can be supported or explained?because this is shaking my belief in the theory a bit even though i've seen alot of evidence supporting it.

#17806
Raistlin Majare 1992

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munnellyladt wrote...

I heard that Jesica Marizan(sorry,might have spelt name wrong)said that shepard is on the citedel in a twiter post,and this puts me off for a bit because an important part of IT is about shepard waking up from indoctrination in London.

does anybody know if this can be supported or explained?because this is shaking my belief in the theory a bit even though i've seen alot of evidence supporting it.


I am pretty sure she came out an said later it was purely her own belief and not anything official.

#17807
Rifneno

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Stornskar wrote...

I guess my question got lost among the ad hominem attacks and insults - but is the thought of IT that everything is by precise design - from the boy in the vent, his death, the dream sequences, etc, including the endings? Based on Bioware's actions and response to the fans' reaction, I have a tough time believing that this is all a part of the grand plan


Why, because they didn't spoil a coming plot twist?

#17808
estebanus

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Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

munnellyladt wrote...

I heard that Jesica Marizan(sorry,might have spelt name wrong)said that shepard is on the citedel in a twiter post,and this puts me off for a bit because an important part of IT is about shepard waking up from indoctrination in London.

does anybody know if this can be supported or explained?because this is shaking my belief in the theory a bit even though i've seen alot of evidence supporting it.


I am pretty sure she came out an said later it was purely her own belief and not anything official.



Yup, she did. Either way, she wouldn't know anything about the EC at that point in development. She's just a community manager.

#17809
Rifneno

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Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

munnellyladt wrote...

I heard that Jesica Marizan(sorry,might have spelt name wrong)said that shepard is on the citedel in a twiter post,and this puts me off for a bit because an important part of IT is about shepard waking up from indoctrination in London.

does anybody know if this can be supported or explained?because this is shaking my belief in the theory a bit even though i've seen alot of evidence supporting it.


I am pretty sure she came out an said later it was purely her own belief and not anything official.


And if we're going to take her posts as rock solid, how about the one where she said the Normandy couldn't and didn't make it to the Charon relay in time?  That means it's still in the Sol system because it sure as hell didn't reach the next system light YEARS away when it couldn't make the Charon relay light MINUTES away.  Which means it's on Earth because no other planet in Sol can support plant life.  But it's not Earth because we have one moon, not two.  Therefor that scene couldn't possibly be real.

#17810
estebanus

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Rifneno wrote...

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

munnellyladt wrote...

I heard that Jesica Marizan(sorry,might have spelt name wrong)said that shepard is on the citedel in a twiter post,and this puts me off for a bit because an important part of IT is about shepard waking up from indoctrination in London.

does anybody know if this can be supported or explained?because this is shaking my belief in the theory a bit even though i've seen alot of evidence supporting it.


I am pretty sure she came out an said later it was purely her own belief and not anything official.


And if we're going to take her posts as rock solid, how about the one where she said the Normandy couldn't and didn't make it to the Charon relay in time?  That means it's still in the Sol system because it sure as hell didn't reach the next system light YEARS away when it couldn't make the Charon relay light MINUTES away.  Which means it's on Earth because no other planet in Sol can support plant life.  But it's not Earth because we have one moon, not two.  Therefor that scene couldn't possibly be real.



And what about when she said it's not a plothole that EDI survives in destroy?

#17811
EpyonX3

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estebanus wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

munnellyladt wrote...

I heard that Jesica Marizan(sorry,might have spelt name wrong)said that shepard is on the citedel in a twiter post,and this puts me off for a bit because an important part of IT is about shepard waking up from indoctrination in London.

does anybody know if this can be supported or explained?because this is shaking my belief in the theory a bit even though i've seen alot of evidence supporting it.


I am pretty sure she came out an said later it was purely her own belief and not anything official.


And if we're going to take her posts as rock solid, how about the one where she said the Normandy couldn't and didn't make it to the Charon relay in time?  That means it's still in the Sol system because it sure as hell didn't reach the next system light YEARS away when it couldn't make the Charon relay light MINUTES away.  Which means it's on Earth because no other planet in Sol can support plant life.  But it's not Earth because we have one moon, not two.  Therefor that scene couldn't possibly be real.



And what about when she said it's not a plothole that EDI survives in destroy?


I have yet to see this happen.

#17812
munnellyladt

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estebanus wrote...

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

munnellyladt wrote...

I heard that Jesica Marizan(sorry,might have spelt name wrong)said that shepard is on the citedel in a twiter post,and this puts me off for a bit because an important part of IT is about shepard waking up from indoctrination in London.

does anybody know if this can be supported or explained?because this is shaking my belief in the theory a bit even though i've seen alot of evidence supporting it.


I am pretty sure she came out an said later it was purely her own belief and not anything official.



Yup, she did. Either way, she wouldn't know anything about the EC at that point in development. She's just a community manager.



Thanks for the clarification,belief back to 100%Posted Image

#17813
paxxton

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estebanus wrote...

paxxton wrote...

estebanus wrote...

paxxton wrote...

Exactly. Considering that during a dream humans don't think clearly Shepard's friends stranded on a deserted planet with wild animals and no immediate way to survive might give him lots of comfort.



Missing the point.

As far as Shepard knows, the Mass Relays blow up, right? S/he has no way of knowing if the explosions killed everyone or if they didn't. What did a lot of Shepard's friends want to do? They wanted to retire to a tropical beach somewhere far away where they could live in peace for the rest of their lives. I think that it symbolizes that. In adream, you don't think about the implications of what just happened, do you? At least not immediately.

This is what I meant. Posted Image



Oh, well then I misunderstood you post. Sorry.

I might have peppered that post with too much sarcasm which in turn made it have a vague meaning. Posted Image

Modifié par paxxton, 12 juin 2012 - 10:04 .


#17814
UrgedDuke

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1 page away from the 3000th page

#17815
Memnon

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Rifneno wrote...

Stornskar wrote...

I guess my question got lost among the ad hominem attacks and insults - but is the thought of IT that everything is by precise design - from the boy in the vent, his death, the dream sequences, etc, including the endings? Based on Bioware's actions and response to the fans' reaction, I have a tough time believing that this is all a part of the grand plan


Why, because they didn't spoil a coming plot twist?


Not necessarily - just, as I mentioned before, it seemed to me like the ending was rushed and tacked on hastily (and sloppily). Also, Bioware's reaction, saying that the endings would not change, talking about art integrity, the voice actors saying that they were just 'clarifications' and that the endings aren't changing. I mean, it would be absolutely brilliant if this was all one massive, elaborate ruse, but I have a tough time believing that is the case. I hope it is, don't get me wrong, it's just tough for me to believe it

Modifié par Stornskar, 12 juin 2012 - 10:04 .


#17816
UrgentArchengel

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3000 pages of constructive productivity and overall epicness! We should be proud!!!

Edit: Almost there!!!

Modifié par UrgentArchengel, 12 juin 2012 - 10:05 .


#17817
paxxton

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UrgedDuke wrote...

1 page away from the 3000th page

So soon. We were almost 100 pages away a couple of days ago.

#17818
paxxton

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No.

Modifié par paxxton, 12 juin 2012 - 10:06 .


#17819
paxxton

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How about now?

#17820
UrgentArchengel

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Anyway, what's the new big topic? Something about a cube map or something?

#17821
UrgedDuke

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3000

#17822
paxxton

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Now?

#17823
UrgedDuke

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now

#17824
DJBare

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EpyonX3 wrote...

estebanus wrote...
And what about when she said it's not a plothole that EDI survives in destroy?

I have yet to see this happen.

That makes......several of us, I've lost count how many times I've replayed the destroy ending with high EMS and different combinations of squad members, EDI has never once stepped off the crashed Normandy, and so far as I know, not one person who has claimed has ever shown proof, that's not to say they are lying, but with something that big it's better to have the proof to your claim before saying anything.

#17825
byne

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Dont spam just to get to 3000