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[Legion109]

byne wrote...

Legion109 wrote...

(Though they character assassinated him in ME3 by having him want to use reaper tech rather then allowing his people to evolve on their own)

That part always bugged me.

Made me want to cry since they destroyed my favorite sentient machine since Johnny 5.

[byne]

Speaking of MP, is it just me or does it take freakin forever to create a match instead of just randomly joining one?

[Nauks]

byne wrote...

Speaking of MP, is it just me or does it take freakin forever to create a match instead of just randomly joining one?

Only started MP recently, having trouble getting games in general, mostly stuck on "searching for games" til I get bored or getting into empty lobbies, problematic.

[dreamgazer]

DJBare wrote...

Arian Dynas wrote...
Basically pointing out that you can't make judgements based on some arbitrary colours.

This a 1000 times, heck I had not even noticed the colors on my first play through, I based my choice on what the catalysts said and Shepards own goal to stop the reapers, of course I realized my choice was in error still, but it was not because of colors.

Even in literal interpretations, I kinda love what BioWare did with red and blue colors in the ending.  Broke your perception of what they meant in a moment where your morality score effectively meant squat. You, as a player, had to pick what each one meant, and whether it fell into the quadrant of what you consider a "paragon" or "renegade" option.  Analytical thought.

And it's given even more power considering indoctrination might have been clouding the whole scenario.

[Rifneno]

Legion109 wrote...

byne wrote...

Legion109 wrote...

(Though they character assassinated him in ME3 by having him want to use reaper tech rather then allowing his people to evolve on their own)

That part always bugged me.

Made me want to cry since they destroyed my favorite sentient machine since Johnny 5.

I still maintain that Legion was only killed off because they didn't have a good excuse ready for why he can't join the team again. *grumble*

[dreamgazer]

Rifneno wrote...

I still maintain that Legion was only killed off because they didn't have a good excuse ready for why he can't join the team again. *grumble*

Oh, I disagree.  Legion's death was magnificent for many, many reasons, and totally worth what his last moments implied and how it informed the universe's lore. 

[Nauks]

Rifneno wrote...

I still maintain that Legion was only killed off because they didn't have a good excuse ready for why he can't join the team again. *grumble*

Let's turn that frown upside down, what if they'd give us female Geth for MP in the future? ehh? ehh?

Modifié par Nauks, 17 mai 2012 - 05:02 .

[Nauks]

Fine, be that way.

[Wabajakka]

This thread flying a little off topic already a bit.

Try to avoid lockdown again lol...

So, What do you guys think of the other versions of IT?

You know, the Dream version (nothing is real) which is the primary one. The hallucination version (some things real, most aren't) and the Catalyst hallucination version? (only the Catalyst is not real)

Which one do you guys think is most likely? The idea that everything but the Catalyst is real has really grown on me.

Modifié par Orange Tee, 17 mai 2012 - 05:12 .

[DirtyPhoenix]

Legion109 wrote...

byne wrote...

Legion109 wrote...

(Though they character assassinated him in ME3 by having him want to use reaper tech rather then allowing his people to evolve on their own)

That part always bugged me.

Made me want to cry since they destroyed my favorite sentient machine since Johnny 5.

Not sure but i think Legion didn't say anything about using other techs or not, he just meant that they didn't want others to show them their future, they want to create it themselves. Even the reaper code-upgraded Geth Prime says this on Earth: Today we fight to secure our future. Sure they are upgraded by reaper code, but they aren't directed by the reapers, that's my understanding of it. In TIM's words "They took what they wanted, made them their own."

[Nauks]

Orange Tee wrote...

This thread flying a little off topic already a bit.

Try to avoid lockdown again lol...

So, What do you guys think of the other versions of IT?

You know, the Dream version (nothing is real) which is the primary one. The hallucination version (some things real, most aren't) and the Catalyst hallucination version? (only the Catalyst is not real)

Which one do you guys think is most likely? The idea that everything but the Catalyst is real has really grown on me.

Sorry about that, sleep dep and stupid MP not working makes this sad panda go hyper.

We're only speaking about the events after Harbinger's beam yeah?
Between the white-out after getting hit (only seen in dreams/Geth concensus) the way Shepard seemingly pieces together the Citadel from his/her mind, Anderson vs TIM mirroring Shepard's inner struggle, and the bizarro turn everything takes after this, for my money, Harbinger's beam is the cut-off point.

[Boradam]

Unschuld wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

byne wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...


My bet is that the Asari Temple map is either on or near Thessia or a Monastery. Also I could imagine the other jungle map is Eden Prime. That could also explain why we get Protheans... as the Alliance scouts the dig site after Shep freed Javik blablabla.
So the next event we get either the fall of Thessia or something introducing the Protheans in style. I could imagine Thessia falls before the event though.

So, has that Vorcha and 'Phoenix' leak been confirmed or something, or are we still just speculating about it?

Yesterday Sony put up the description that was also leaked some time ago claiming it came "today" obviously premature, but I think the only thing that was wrong was the date it got public. (including the Quarians, guess they get a Male for both classes)

Considering this...



... was also dropped on twitter a little while ago, I'd think it's safe to say that DLC is 99% confirmed. Can you guess what's in that picture? It made me very happy, anyway.

Quariman. Oh yes.

[Unschuld]

Legion109 wrote...

byne wrote...

Legion109 wrote...

(Though they character assassinated him in ME3 by having him want to use reaper tech rather then allowing his people to evolve on their own)

That part always bugged me.

Made me want to cry since they destroyed my favorite sentient machine since Johnny 5.

Because in that instance self preservation of "his" "species" took precedence. Use the reaper code, or cease to exist. I think it's pretty clear that "he" still maintained "his" character, "his" desire for self determination emphasized when "he" assaults Shepard. Good thing Tali's previously mysterious unused knife was good for something.

[Arian Dynas]

Nauks wrote...

Orange Tee wrote...

This thread flying a little off topic already a bit.

Try to avoid lockdown again lol...

So, What do you guys think of the other versions of IT?

You know, the Dream version (nothing is real) which is the primary one. The hallucination version (some things real, most aren't) and the Catalyst hallucination version? (only the Catalyst is not real)

Which one do you guys think is most likely? The idea that everything but the Catalyst is real has really grown on me.

Sorry about that, sleep dep and stupid MP not working makes this sad panda go hyper.

We're only speaking about the events after Harbinger's beam yeah?
Between the white-out after getting hit (only seen in dreams/Geth concensus) the way Shepard seemingly pieces together the Citadel from his/her mind, Anderson vs TIM mirroring Shepard's inner struggle, and the bizarro turn everything takes after this, for my money, Harbinger's beam is the cut-off point.

IMO the Catalyst not being real is just people whom want to deny the Catalyst and are using the theory as a convineient method to do so without paticularly understanding the IDEA behind IDT. It leaves a number of things unexplained and is for the most part, logically shaky.

Likely it's hallucinatory in that Shepard is concious, but unable to move, or perhaps he is in a coma, and the events of the indoctrination took mere seconds before he gets pulled out of the rubble by Anderson and dragged into the beam to fight on the CItadel. We don't really know.

Legion109 wrote...

byne wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

I'd think Sword too if just because damn I want to destroy some capital ships.

But whats the point of destroying capital ships? I thought we couldnt defeat the Reapers conventionally? Why waste resources destroying them?

[smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/whistling.png[/smilie]

Conventional defeat of the reapers is the only thing that would have made the ending epic, an all out galactic war against the reapers the likes of which had never been seen. I mean wasn't Legion very specific in ME2 about making your own way and not using the technology that was left by say reapers/protheans.(Though they character assassinated him in ME3 by having him want to use reaper tech rather then allowing his people to evolve on their own)

As my hero would say "That's just my opinion though, no reason to go spread it around" [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/alien.png[/smilie][smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/wizard.png[/smilie]

 


As I understand it, what Legion was talking about when he said they refused the "Old Machines" was that Sovereign had offered them a Reaper chassis that their species could download themselves into, reaching the singularity they desired and completely merging the Geth into a single supercomputer as they originally planned and attempted with their Dyson cloud. They prefered their own method of achiving this singularity, feeling Sovereign's offer came with too many strings attached, then they later on took the code because Legion had used the Reaper code as a jumping off point to program his own version, with the Geth now going out to achive a different veiw of the future, one more in line with an organic veiw, self actualization.

[Wabajakka]

Nauks wrote...

Orange Tee wrote...

This thread flying a little off topic already a bit.

Try to avoid lockdown again lol...

So, What do you guys think of the other versions of IT?

You know, the Dream version (nothing is real) which is the primary one. The hallucination version (some things real, most aren't) and the Catalyst hallucination version? (only the Catalyst is not real)

Which one do you guys think is most likely? The idea that everything but the Catalyst is real has really grown on me.

Sorry about that, sleep dep and stupid MP not working makes this sad panda go hyper.

We're only speaking about the events after Harbinger's beam yeah?
Between the white-out after getting hit (only seen in dreams/Geth concensus) the way Shepard seemingly pieces together the Citadel from his/her mind, Anderson vs TIM mirroring Shepard's inner struggle, and the bizarro turn everything takes after this, for my money, Harbinger's beam is the cut-off point.

I don't like that piece of "evedence" with the white-out transition in particular, it's much too easy to knock that one off as "just another transition effect" 

I also can't agree with the "piecing it from his mind" bit either. Not only is the Shadow Broker ship DLC optional, we learn giant ships like the Shadow Broker ships need complex generators like that.

Although, I'll take IT anyway I can get it, whether it was all dream or only the Catalyst was a hallucination, both of them have outcomes I favour for the series.

Arian Dynas wrote...


IMO the Catalyst not being real is just people whom want to deny the Catalyst and are using the theory as a convineient method to do so without paticularly understanding the IDEA behind IDT. It leaves a number of things unexplained and is for the most part, logically shaky.

Likely it's hallucinatory in that Shepard is concious, but unable to move, or perhaps he is in a coma, and the events of the indoctrination took mere seconds before he gets pulled out of the rubble by Anderson and dragged into the beam to fight on the CItadel. We don't really know.

I dunno really, only the Catalyst not being real can make some good sense. I created a thread surrounding that idea, take a look. I actually also give some more good evidence towards the original idea of the IT itself I haven't seen many others bring up before.

To be honest the events before the Catalyst aren't all that far fetched. Especially with the way BW has been talking, I don't like the original ITs chances because with the original IT, it requires the game to make a new ending, which BW has made clear they aren't doing.

Modifié par Orange Tee, 17 mai 2012 - 05:42 .

[Nauks]

Orange Tee wrote...

I don't like that piece of "evedence" with the white-out transition in particular, it's much too easy to knock that one off as "just another transition effect" 

I also can't agree with the "piecing it from his mind" bit either. Not only is the Shadow Broker ship DLC optional, we learn giant ships like the Shadow Broker ships need complex generators like that.

Although, I'll take IT anyway I can get it, whether it was all dream or only the Catalyst was a hallucination, both of them have outcomes I favour for the series.

Sure, it may be a coincidence about the white-out, but it's weird how time seems to slow down instead of seeing Shepard get hit by the beam outright, then waking up, the camera coming in the same way as it does in the first dream, it's this whole sequence really that is suspect, the fact that the white-out only appears in certain areas is just adage.

DLCs and canon, another thing people don't seem to like is how some of us point to Arrival and object Rho as a way of cementing this indoctrination plot for ME3.
Yes, they needed to tweak the story for people who didn't play it, but the fact that Bioware made this DLC intentionally as a bridge to ME3 is telling in itself.
Same with the Shadowbroker ship memories in the Citadel, some people didn't play it, but it still exists, and taking it away would not impact the story either way imo.

[Arian Dynas]

Orange Tee wrote...
*snip*

Arian Dynas wrote...


IMO the Catalyst not being real is just people whom want to deny the Catalyst and are using the theory as a convineient method to do so without paticularly understanding the IDEA behind IDT. It leaves a number of things unexplained and is for the most part, logically shaky.

Likely it's hallucinatory in that Shepard is concious, but unable to move, or perhaps he is in a coma, and the events of the indoctrination took mere seconds before he gets pulled out of the rubble by Anderson and dragged into the beam to fight on the CItadel. We don't really know.

I dunno really, only the Catalyst not being real can make some good sense. I created a thread surrounding that idea, take a look. I actually also give some more good evidence towards the original idea of the IT itself I haven't seen many others bring up before.

To be honest the events before the Catalyst aren't all that far fetched. Especially with the way BW has been talking, I don't like the original ITs chances because with the original IT, it requires the game to make a new ending, which BW has made clear they aren't doing.

Couple major reasons it doesn't work. Explain then how Shepard survived a blast measured in gigatons?

And explain how it is that the Citadel has two different control panels, when we've seen the real one before?

Explain why it is the Citadel hall is made up of things from Shepard's memory.

Explan why when going through the collector base hall that the color drains from the screen if you turn around.

Explain how the hell Shepard got back to London if he was on the Citadel.

And explain how it is that there are magical quick growing trees on the conduit approach? Or why Harbinger leaves? Or why Hammer falls back.

Modifié par Arian Dynas, 17 mai 2012 - 05:51 .

[Wabajakka]

Arian Dynas wrote...

Couple major reasons it doesn't work. Explain then how Shepard survived a blast measured in gigatons?

And explain how it is that the Citadel has two different control panels, when we've seen the real one before?

Explain why it is the Citadel hall is made up of things from Shepard's memory.

Explan why when going through the collector base hall that the color drains from the screen if you turn around.

Explain how the hell Shepard got back to London if he was on the Citadel.

And explain how it is that there are magical quick growing trees on the conduit approach? Or why Harbinger leaves? Or why Hammer falls back.

Well it's easy to assume Shepard may have survived the blast believe it or not, I suggest actually reading what I linked you to, I do go into detail about those things if I remember correctly. Someone at BW explained how not everyone on the Citadel is dead after the explosion, I use similar reasoning (read it though)

I adressed why I don't think things are made up from Sheps memory when I replied to Nauks above.

Also, it's proven that those little trees and shrubs are in fact there before Shepard approaches the beam, watch the IT documentary video, he points it out as well.

Nauks wrote...

Shadowbroker ship memories in the Citadel, some people didn't play it, but it still exists, and taking it away would not impact the story either way imo.

Completely untrue actually, if your Shep didn't see it, why should they remember it? They would need to cater to everyones play expierience, which they didn't.

Also, Arrival isn't the only thing to point at and say "this is how Shep got indoc'd" Shepard has been around Reaper tech a ton, regardless of DLC or non-manditory missions. Reaper IFF probably being one of the largest suspects of the lot.

Modifié par Orange Tee, 17 mai 2012 - 06:04 .

[ScorpioShane7]

Indoctrination Theory? .......Definitely.

[Rifneno]

dreamgazer wrote...

Oh, I disagree. Legion's death was magnificent for many, many reasons, and totally worth what his last moments implied and how it informed the universe's lore.

But you don't list any? Here's mine for my stance:

- There's no reason given for his having to die. "Direct personality dissemination required" isn't a reason. As much as Microsoft sucks sometimes, I've never gotten an error window reading "File copy failed. Commit suicide? Yes/No"
- As someone mentioned earlier, Legion was against using Reaper tech even when it's on their own terms. Now all of a sudden he's willing to die to put Reaper code into his entire species. WTF? Just... WTF? And Unschuld's explanation of "he had to do it to save the geth from the quarians" doesn't work. Legion offs himself after Shepard brokers peace between the two. The geth were already safe.
- Legion, Thane, and Mordin are the only ones you can't reasonably save. Well, you can save Mordin but you have to sacrifice Wrex and a lot more. Anyways, my point is Legion is the only one of them that wasn't about to drop dead anyway. In fact, come to think of it, I believe Legion is the only one you cannot save no matter what. If you never talk to Thane in the hospital, he won't be involved in the Cerberus/Citadel mission even if he's alive, and you can save Mordin by being a huge douche.

Nauks wrote...

Let's turn that frown upside down, what if they'd give us female Geth for MP in the future? ehh? ehh?

Err... geth have gender?

pirate1802 wrote...

Not sure but i think Legion didn't say anything about using other techs or not, he just meant that they didn't want others to show them their future, they want to create it themselves. Even the reaper code-upgraded Geth Prime says this on Earth: Today we fight to secure our future. Sure they are upgraded by reaper code, but they aren't directed by the reapers, that's my understanding of it. In TIM's words "They took what they wanted, made them their own."

"You even refused the possibility of using the Old Machines' gifts to achieve it on your species' own terms. You are more like us than we thought."

Unschuld wrote...

Good thing Tali's previously mysterious unused knife was good for something.

Yes. It's a good thing she carried that around for 6 years and the first time she thought to use a sharp metal object was to stab a walking toaster. Tali-Zorah, ladies and gentlemen. Mechanical genius and lightning rod.

[Nauks]

Orange Tee wrote...

Nauks wrote...

Shadowbroker ship memories in the Citadel, some people didn't play it, but it still exists, and taking it away would not impact the story either way imo.

Completely untrue actually, if your Shep didn't see it, why should they remember it? They would need to cater to everyones play expierience, which they didn't.

Also, Arrival isn't the only thing to point at and say "this is how Shep got indoc'd" Shepard has been around Reaper tech a ton, regardless of DLC or non-manditory missions. Reaper IFF probably being one of the largest suspects of the lot.

I believe Bioware made a judgement call and went big-picture with this one, it's an obvious clue if you played it, and if you didn't hey it's not a crucial enough clue to hinder you from experiencing the indoctrination event.
If you wanna get technical say you saw schematics/heard descriptions from Liara about it offscreen (she does seem to watch the Shadow Broker's ship a lot on her terminal after all).

Yarp, that's my point about Arrival too regarding people who dismiss it as indoc evidence, but that's beside the point, Bioware did something intentionally, and for those who didn't experience it, there is a consolation price of sorts.

Modifié par Nauks, 17 mai 2012 - 06:21 .

[Nauks]

Rifneno wrote...

Nauks wrote...

Let's turn that frown upside down, what if they'd give us female Geth for MP in the future? ehh? ehh?

Err... geth have gender?

It would be an interesting Futurama-ish kind of turn no?
Perhaps some of them set out to emulate organics and adapt different genders. (even mono-gendered! if they aren't technically that already...hmm.)

Modifié par Nauks, 17 mai 2012 - 06:20 .

[DirtyPhoenix]

Anyways, I think legions death was beautiful, as was Thane's; giving his life to uplift his species. We don't know enough about Direct personality dissemination to argue how logical or illogical it is. I did love Legion, but his death was worth it.

[dreamgazer]

Rifneno wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

Oh, I disagree. Legion's death was magnificent for many, many reasons, and totally worth what his last moments implied and how it informed the universe's lore.

But you don't list any?

I was trying to stay true to the spirit of the whole "staying on topic" thing, but wanted to offer my quick counter-position since it was brought up.

[Arian Dynas]

Rifneno wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

Oh, I disagree. Legion's death was magnificent for many, many reasons, and totally worth what his last moments implied and how it informed the universe's lore.

But you don't list any? Here's mine for my stance:

- There's no reason given for his having to die. "Direct personality dissemination required" isn't a reason. As much as Microsoft sucks sometimes, I've never gotten an error window reading "File copy failed. Commit suicide? Yes/No"
- As someone mentioned earlier, Legion was against using Reaper tech even when it's on their own terms. Now all of a sudden he's willing to die to put Reaper code into his entire species. WTF? Just... WTF? And Unschuld's explanation of "he had to do it to save the geth from the quarians" doesn't work. Legion offs himself after Shepard brokers peace between the two. The geth were already safe.
- Legion, Thane, and Mordin are the only ones you can't reasonably save. Well, you can save Mordin but you have to sacrifice Wrex and a lot more. Anyways, my point is Legion is the only one of them that wasn't about to drop dead anyway. In fact, come to think of it, I believe Legion is the only one you cannot save no matter what. If you never talk to Thane in the hospital, he won't be involved in the Cerberus/Citadel mission even if he's alive, and you can save Mordin by being a huge douche.

1. It's not "suicide" per-se Legion as an individual entity made up by the combination of 1138 Geth runtimes is "dead" in that he disassembled his personality, seperating those runtimes and spreading them throughout the collective. Legion could potentially "live" again if those runtimes were assmbled in the exact same configuration as they were previously. He broke up his personality because the copy of the code he was using was damaged by file transfer and he needed a way to ensure that the code would reach the Geth, spread, and copy without being corrupted in transit. He had the only uncorrupted copy of the code integrated into his runtimes.

2. Legion wasn't using Reaper tech or the Reaper code, he had taken the Reaper code and used it as a baseline to program his own version of it, paring out the parts he didn't like, and used it as a jumping off point to make his own code. He says this. They needed the code because they had been made "stupider" by the attack and lost far more runtimes than they could bear to lose, therefore they needed processing power back to be of any use or stand a chance of survival, and since their Dyson Cloud got wiped out, they decided on the next best thing, transferring into individual platforms and coalescing into artifical intelligences, much like your more traditional AI.

3. Thane dies anyway, which do you think he would prefer? A death going out as a hero, saving someone's life and embarassing Kai Leng while helping Shepard, the first friend he has had in more than 11 years, and then being able to succumb to his disease while surrounded by friends and family? Or just die, hacking and wheezing, his close friend having forgotten all about him in his final months?

Modifié par Arian Dynas, 17 mai 2012 - 06:33 .