Aller au contenu

Photo

Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark II!


55528 réponses à ce sujet

#19176
Jadebaby

Jadebaby
  • Members
  • 13 229 messages

BatmanTurian wrote...

Jade8aby88 wrote...

The thing that bothers me more is that they have to write a couple of paragraphs to ask like 3 questions.


What bothers me more than that is SubAstris is in there playing the same stupid tune he always does:


"So they try to indoctrinate him, give up, try and kill him instead,
fail, and then try indoctrination again? Seems awfully convaluted, you
would expect the Reapers to stick to their guns. Why not try and
indoctrinate him just before they get to the beam? Like at shuttle crash"

It's like they simplify things to make it sound stupid. Anyone can do that with anything. The sun makes light that plants eat then animals eat plants and poop to help feed plants.


He's just strawmanning the arguement and making himself look like a troll, at least that's what I see from that description."

#19177
Ctoagu

Ctoagu
  • Members
  • 42 messages

byne wrote...

What if I poured a bucket of water in there? Would I turn all organics into mostly water? What a horrible fate!


Are we talking about Mass Effect or a variation of the End of Evangelion here?

#19178
BatmanTurian

BatmanTurian
  • Members
  • 4 735 messages

Turbo_J wrote...

Hellish, I meant to ask. Did you take a close look at the Reaper remains when on Cronos. Almost every portion of the carcass is embedded with circuitry. It's completely integrated into the superstructure of the thing. Good place for little infrasonic and ultrasonic programs to hide, even when for all intents and purposes, the Reaper as a whole is dead.


According to Liara, the Reaper isn't dead. It's "watching" them.

#19179
Arian Dynas

Arian Dynas
  • Members
  • 3 799 messages

Jade8aby88 wrote...

Arian Dynas wrote...

MaximizedAction wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

oh look, it's this thread again...

" We should all know by now what Indoctrination Theory is, but for those
of you who don't yet, the theory is that at the end of Priority: Earth,
after Shepard is hit by a reaper's laser, Sheperd becomes indoctrinated
and the whole ending is just a hallucination.

Here's the problem
with that:  we need to look at the amount of time that Shepard's
actually spent around reapers.  It really isn't much compared to Saren
or The Illusive Man.  Saren, for example, traversed the galaxy inside of
Sovreign.  The Illusive Man had the human reaper larva's heart/brain in
the center of his main base for at least a few months.  In contrast,
Shepard often only spends a few hours near a reaper at any given time.  
Now, despite Sovreign's proximity on Vermire in ME1, Vigil later says
that he, "does not detect the taint of indoctrination" on Shepard.  

So,
with that established, the question now is "how would Shepard have
become indoctrinated that much in such a short amount of time, while
still retaining much of his sanity?"  Admittedly his actions at the end
are a little strange, but yours would be too if you were bleeding out
that exorbitantly.  That said, I do understand that some fans would like
to believe that there

While I concede that both Saren and The
Illusive man had extensive implantation done, this only occurred after
the indoctrination had begun working.  Also worth noting was Matriarch
Benezia's ability to retain some control after becoming severely
fatigued.  I'd love to hear what others think, however. " 

It's like they're just phoning in the same arguments over and over again...


That makes me think. Maybe we should introduce some sort of degree for Indoctrinationists:
Everyone who wishes to achieve such a degree has to pass a short test. A few arguments with errors in it, like the one above, and the examinee has to correctly spot the errors and correct them.
In short: a simulated debate with a literalist.

I got the idea because I observe that I'm slowly starting to spot such standard wrong understandings of the ME codex and in-game evidence.


And to get the official IDT signature, one must pass and get their certification.Posted Image


That would be SO awesome, too bad they could just copy/paste n steal it.Posted Image


And built into the sig is a link that takes you to a thread with the list of certified individuals in it. Posted Image

#19180
estebanus

estebanus
  • Members
  • 5 987 messages
Ok, please get back on topic, Chris Priestly is on another of his locking sprees tonight!

#19181
BatmanTurian

BatmanTurian
  • Members
  • 4 735 messages

estebanus wrote...

Ok, please get back on topic, Chris Priestly is on another of his locking sprees tonight!


We're still talking about Mass Effect so all is well.

#19182
HellishFiend

HellishFiend
  • Members
  • 5 546 messages

Turbo_J wrote...

Hellish, I meant to ask. Did you take a close look at the Reaper remains when on Cronos. Almost every portion of the carcass is embedded with circuitry. It's completely integrated into the superstructure of the thing. Good place for little infrasonic and ultrasonic programs to hide, even when for all intents and purposes, the Reaper as a whole is dead.


I did. My default non-import Shep had the Reaper Heart carcass for the Proto-Reaper. I examined it for nearly half an hour but didnt see anything that stood out. But even in the absence of visual evidence, it's already been established in the plot that "Even a dead god can dream". Plus there's the mess of cigarettes in the observation room, and I also personally think the excessive amount of workstations there is implying something. 

#19183
estebanus

estebanus
  • Members
  • 5 987 messages
Uuuhhh.. I won't be posting in here for the next few hours, I've gotta fight Seival in his Normandy support thread.

See you all later.

#19184
TJBartlemus

TJBartlemus
  • Members
  • 2 308 messages

Arian Dynas wrote...

Jade8aby88 wrote...

Arian Dynas wrote...

Jade8aby88 wrote...

byne wrote...

What if I poured a bucket of water in there? Would I turn all organics into mostly water? What a horrible fate!


No, i think they'd be a hybrid of bucket and water.. err ... somehow...


Wonder Twin Powers, Activate!


LOL!

I did not see that coming, how random. Have the best laughs in this thread.Posted Image


Posted Image

Posted Image


Nice.......:P

#19185
paxxton

paxxton
  • Members
  • 8 445 messages

HellishFiend wrote...

Turbo_J wrote...

Hellish, I meant to ask. Did you take a close look at the Reaper remains when on Cronos. Almost every portion of the carcass is embedded with circuitry. It's completely integrated into the superstructure of the thing. Good place for little infrasonic and ultrasonic programs to hide, even when for all intents and purposes, the Reaper as a whole is dead.


I did. My default non-import Shep had the Reaper Heart carcass for the Proto-Reaper. I examined it for nearly half an hour but didnt see anything that stood out. But even in the absence of visual evidence, it's already been established in the plot that "Even a dead god can dream". Plus there's the mess of cigarettes in the observation room, and I also personally think the excessive amount of workstations there is implying something. 

Seriously? Posted Image Like what?

Modifié par paxxton, 14 juin 2012 - 11:10 .


#19186
Arian Dynas

Arian Dynas
  • Members
  • 3 799 messages
And she can wear a bunny outfit into combat too.

Double nice! :P

#19187
HellishFiend

HellishFiend
  • Members
  • 5 546 messages

paxxton wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

Turbo_J wrote...

Hellish, I meant to ask. Did you take a close look at the Reaper remains when on Cronos. Almost every portion of the carcass is embedded with circuitry. It's completely integrated into the superstructure of the thing. Good place for little infrasonic and ultrasonic programs to hide, even when for all intents and purposes, the Reaper as a whole is dead.


I did. My default non-import Shep had the Reaper Heart carcass for the Proto-Reaper. I examined it for nearly half an hour but didnt see anything that stood out. But even in the absence of visual evidence, it's already been established in the plot that "Even a dead god can dream". Plus there's the mess of cigarettes in the observation room, and I also personally think the excessive amount of workstations there is implying something. 

Seriously? Posted Image Like what?


Yeah, did you miss my post earlier? I can repost it, if so. I made a lot of observations about Cronos Station. Planning on covering London tonight. 

#19188
paxxton

paxxton
  • Members
  • 8 445 messages

HellishFiend wrote...

paxxton wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

Turbo_J wrote...

Hellish, I meant to ask. Did you take a close look at the Reaper remains when on Cronos. Almost every portion of the carcass is embedded with circuitry. It's completely integrated into the superstructure of the thing. Good place for little infrasonic and ultrasonic programs to hide, even when for all intents and purposes, the Reaper as a whole is dead.


I did. My default non-import Shep had the Reaper Heart carcass for the Proto-Reaper. I examined it for nearly half an hour but didnt see anything that stood out. But even in the absence of visual evidence, it's already been established in the plot that "Even a dead god can dream". Plus there's the mess of cigarettes in the observation room, and I also personally think the excessive amount of workstations there is implying something. 

Seriously? Posted Image Like what?


Yeah, did you miss my post earlier? I can repost it, if so. I made a lot of observations about Cronos Station. Planning on covering London tonight. 

Yes, please. I must've missed it. Posted Image

Modifié par paxxton, 14 juin 2012 - 11:12 .


#19189
HellishFiend

HellishFiend
  • Members
  • 5 546 messages
 

Cronos Station:
I confirmed the observation that Cronos Station seems to follow a progression from Red -> Blue -> Green throughout the areas. Red area is the largest and has the most combat. Fire and destruction are prevalent. Blue area contains the proto-reaper, and some fighting. Green area is simply the staircase to TIM's office. No fighting, and powers act strange. 

My Shepard (non import, heavy combat losses) was not short of breath during this portion. 
I confirmed that the area with the third video console (if you pass the hole leading down to the blue area and circle around) has a large area open to space due to a hull breach. If you have grenades, or a grenade-type weapon (I had the scorpion), you can confirm it is open to space by firing through the hole. Your grenade will pass directly through it and out into space. It will even continue to act like it is under the effects of gravity, continuing to fall and eventually exploding. If you instead attempt to fire a power out into space, your power will mysteriously fire off in a seemingly random direction and hit the bulkhead. However, I was able to find one tiny area that allowed me to shoot a power out into space that partially clipped through the bulkhead. I believe that was unintentional because it was very difficult to find. It seems that it doesnt want you firing the powers into space. There is also a door (locked, of course) that appears to lead straight to where the hull breach is, rather than to a room of any kind. 

This shouldnt be possible for three reasons: If there was a barrier holding the atmosphere in, you wouldnt be able to shoot through it, as seen in the hangar when you first arrive. Additionally, your squad has been moving directly towards the interior of the station, meaning youve been moving away from the exterior, and it should be nowhere near you at this point. This is also evidenced by the muffled and barely audible sounds of weapons impacting the station. Lastly, there are no signs of ships or battle visible through the hull breach, which doesnt make sense.

I have also seen it argued that this is a glitch due to the unloading of nearby areas, but I don’t buy that. If it's a glitch, why do your spells randomly fly off in another direction when you try to shoot out into it? An effect that again rears its head when you get to the green staircase leading to TIM's office.  To my knowledge these are the only two times in the game that you experience this strange effect. If it werent for the power misdirection thing, I would be more inclined to think this could be an honest mistake. 

I believe I found another location where that strange reflection cubemap is used (the one from the London apartment that resembles Shepard's cabin). When you go up that last ladder when on your way to the blue section, if you look up at any of the windows in the devastated lab, you see what looks like that cubemap reflection in the windows.

The final "tip" of where the fighter's path of destruction ends just so happens to be right where you descend into the blue area. Yet there is no sign of the remains of the fighter. The path of destruction also seems to originate from the aforementioned hull breach into space. 

There are a lot creepy "Reaperish" sound effects, including the horn and growl, in the blue area. There is also a constant high pitched hum. 

It looks to me personally like there is an overabundance of consoles and workstations in the area observing the proto-reaper. Two entire levels of them. Could be nothing significant, though. Lighting also behaves strangely here. Corners seem to get darker when you get closer, and brighter as you step away. Not sure if this is consistent with other parts of the game. Also, there is a door in the area with the consoles that appears to lead out into open space, if you look at it from the other side. 

Odd whispering/stuttering/muttering during VI conversation


As far as the cigarettes, I'm quite sure that implies that TIM spent a significant amount of time staring at the proto-reaper, and quite likely undergoing indoctrination hallucinations in the process. As for the excessive amount of workstations and consoles (seriously, there are several dozen of them), I havent been able to form a speculation on that. 

edit: sorry, fixed the formatting

Modifié par HellishFiend, 14 juin 2012 - 11:14 .


#19190
Turbo_J

Turbo_J
  • Members
  • 1 217 messages

HellishFiend wrote...

Turbo_J wrote...

Hellish, I meant to ask. Did you take a close look at the Reaper remains when on Cronos. Almost every portion of the carcass is embedded with circuitry. It's completely integrated into the superstructure of the thing. Good place for little infrasonic and ultrasonic programs to hide, even when for all intents and purposes, the Reaper as a whole is dead.


I did. My default non-import Shep had the Reaper Heart carcass for the Proto-Reaper. I examined it for nearly half an hour but didnt see anything that stood out. But even in the absence of visual evidence, it's already been established in the plot that "Even a dead god can dream". Plus there's the mess of cigarettes in the observation room, and I also personally think the excessive amount of workstations there is implying something. 


Yeah I noticed the sigs on the scaffolding and in that final lab.

Arrival Shep: "You have it here! Out in the open! This is not good..."

I also always wondered why that is the only video TIM looks at the camera and tells the computer to 'end recording'. Felt like a set up so seeing TIM with the reaper tech would fool people into believing it was really him.

#19191
paxxton

paxxton
  • Members
  • 8 445 messages
Thanks!

#19192
TJBartlemus

TJBartlemus
  • Members
  • 2 308 messages

BatmanTurian wrote...

estebanus wrote...

Ok, please get back on topic, Chris Priestly is on another of his locking sprees tonight!


We're still talking about Mass Effect so all is well.


Well most of us are....

Has anyone checked this out? Found it and thought it strange. It doesn't seem faked and it certainly shows that the closer you get to the beam , the pitch gets higher.



Also has anyone determined that the beam in the end is the same as the one you went up in, but now the crucible is changing the energy? :blush:

Modifié par TJBartlemus, 14 juin 2012 - 11:15 .


#19193
Dwailing

Dwailing
  • Members
  • 4 566 messages

Arian Dynas wrote...

MaximizedAction wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

oh look, it's this thread again...

" We should all know by now what Indoctrination Theory is, but for those
of you who don't yet, the theory is that at the end of Priority: Earth,
after Shepard is hit by a reaper's laser, Sheperd becomes indoctrinated
and the whole ending is just a hallucination.

Here's the problem
with that:  we need to look at the amount of time that Shepard's
actually spent around reapers.  It really isn't much compared to Saren
or The Illusive Man.  Saren, for example, traversed the galaxy inside of
Sovreign.  The Illusive Man had the human reaper larva's heart/brain in
the center of his main base for at least a few months.  In contrast,
Shepard often only spends a few hours near a reaper at any given time.  
Now, despite Sovreign's proximity on Vermire in ME1, Vigil later says
that he, "does not detect the taint of indoctrination" on Shepard.  

So,
with that established, the question now is "how would Shepard have
become indoctrinated that much in such a short amount of time, while
still retaining much of his sanity?"  Admittedly his actions at the end
are a little strange, but yours would be too if you were bleeding out
that exorbitantly.  That said, I do understand that some fans would like
to believe that there

While I concede that both Saren and The
Illusive man had extensive implantation done, this only occurred after
the indoctrination had begun working.  Also worth noting was Matriarch
Benezia's ability to retain some control after becoming severely
fatigued.  I'd love to hear what others think, however. " 

It's like they're just phoning in the same arguments over and over again...


That makes me think. Maybe we should introduce some sort of degree for Indoctrinationists:
Everyone who wishes to achieve such a degree has to pass a short test. A few arguments with errors in it, like the one above, and the examinee has to correctly spot the errors and correct them.
In short: a simulated debate with a literalist.

I got the idea because I observe that I'm slowly starting to spot such standard wrong understandings of the ME codex and in-game evidence.


And to get the official IDT signature, one must pass and get their certification.Posted Image


Guys, I think I need a little support.  I'm engaged in the argument of my life over the canonicity of Arrival, and I need some backup.

Modifié par Dwailing, 14 juin 2012 - 11:21 .


#19194
HellishFiend

HellishFiend
  • Members
  • 5 546 messages

Dwailing wrote...


Guys, I think I need a little support.  I'm engaged in the argument of my life over the canonicity of Arrival, and I need some backup.


My advice is to say your piece and bow out. Let them make up their minds. Whether they believe you or not is irrelevant....

#19195
Turbo_J

Turbo_J
  • Members
  • 1 217 messages
Dammit! How can James like someone he NEVER MET!

"too bad about Tarquin. I was starting to like him."

NEVER took James on any Tuchanka missions.
Tarquin was NEVER on my ship.

Shared memories I tell you!

#19196
BatmanTurian

BatmanTurian
  • Members
  • 4 735 messages

Turbo_J wrote...

Dammit! How can James like someone he NEVER MET!

"too bad about Tarquin. I was starting to like him."

NEVER took James on any Tuchanka missions.
Tarquin was NEVER on my ship.

Shared memories I tell you!


Oh wow... i never realized.... holy ****.... omg.

So there ARE shared memories in the game, which is the last piece of IT symptoms that we haven't been able to identify. We should look for more.

EDIT: unless of course that is a writer's mistake, which might be likely. But I find it suspect.

Modifié par BatmanTurian, 14 juin 2012 - 11:25 .


#19197
TJBartlemus

TJBartlemus
  • Members
  • 2 308 messages

HellishFiend wrote...

Dwailing wrote...


Guys, I think I need a little support.  I'm engaged in the argument of my life over the canonicity of Arrival, and I need some backup.


My advice is to say your piece and bow out. Let them make up their minds. Whether they believe you or not is irrelevant....


Well it is proven in the comics that Shepard did blow up the relay, but if you don't have the Arrival dlc then in war assets and the conversation w/ Balak it denies that Shepard did it. Doesn't mean it's not canon though.

#19198
BatmanTurian

BatmanTurian
  • Members
  • 4 735 messages

TJBartlemus wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

Dwailing wrote...


Guys, I think I need a little support.  I'm engaged in the argument of my life over the canonicity of Arrival, and I need some backup.


My advice is to say your piece and bow out. Let them make up their minds. Whether they believe you or not is irrelevant....


Well it is proven in the comics that Shepard did blow up the relay, but if you don't have the Arrival dlc then in war assets and the conversation w/ Balak it denies that Shepard did it. Doesn't mean it's not canon though.


[literalist] But my shepard didn't do it so it isn't canon and some comic book by the lead writer won't make me think otherwise! [/literalist]

#19199
HellishFiend

HellishFiend
  • Members
  • 5 546 messages

Turbo_J wrote...

Dammit! How can James like someone he NEVER MET!

"too bad about Tarquin. I was starting to like him."

NEVER took James on any Tuchanka missions.
Tarquin was NEVER on my ship.

Shared memories I tell you!


Interesting. I wonder if James' thoughts throughout the game can consistently be seen as parallel to Shepards?

Modifié par HellishFiend, 14 juin 2012 - 11:29 .


#19200
Turbo_J

Turbo_J
  • Members
  • 1 217 messages

BatmanTurian wrote...

Turbo_J wrote...

Dammit! How can James like someone he NEVER MET!

"too bad about Tarquin. I was starting to like him."

NEVER took James on any Tuchanka missions.
Tarquin was NEVER on my ship.

Shared memories I tell you!


Oh wow... i never realized.... holy ****.... omg.

So there ARE shared memories in the game, which is the last piece of IT symptoms that we haven't been able to identify. We should look for more.

EDIT: unless of course that is a writer's mistake, which might be likely. But I find it suspect.


I posted about it the other day. It's just James; Mr. you hear that hum. Vega.

He knows about Anderson and Sanders. How? That was a private conversation between Shep, Anderson and Sanders.

I'm looking for more.

edit - that's what I get for not proof reading. lol

Modifié par Turbo_J, 14 juin 2012 - 11:30 .