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Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark II!


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#19201
Dwailing

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BatmanTurian wrote...

TJBartlemus wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

Dwailing wrote...


Guys, I think I need a little support.  I'm engaged in the argument of my life over the canonicity of Arrival, and I need some backup.


My advice is to say your piece and bow out. Let them make up their minds. Whether they believe you or not is irrelevant....


Well it is proven in the comics that Shepard did blow up the relay, but if you don't have the Arrival dlc then in war assets and the conversation w/ Balak it denies that Shepard did it. Doesn't mean it's not canon though.


[literalist] But my shepard didn't do it so it isn't canon and some comic book by the lead writer won't make me think otherwise! [/literalist]


God, that's EXACTLY what I'm getting over.  And over.  Again. 

#19202
Gernbuster

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[[/quote]

As far as the cigarettes, I'm quite sure that implies that TIM spent a significant amount of time staring at the proto-reaper, and quite likely undergoing indoctrination hallucinations in the process. As for the excessive amount of workstations and consoles (seriously, there are several dozen of them), I havent been able to form a speculation on that. 

edit: sorry, fixed the formatting

[/quote]

It definitly looks like TIM is becoming a Reaper agent during ME3, but why is he spending his time watching the Reaper, he is the greatest Reaper expert in the whole galaxy. He knew about indoctrination and how it works for decades. He should have known that he gets indoctrinated, if he keeps the Reaper brain close to him.
Guess he knew from the very beginning of ME2 that he may lose himself to the Reapers and thats why he didn't put the control chip inside Shepards brain. He wanted Shepard to stop him if neccessary.

#19203
byne

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TJBartlemus wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

Dwailing wrote...


Guys, I think I need a little support.  I'm engaged in the argument of my life over the canonicity of Arrival, and I need some backup.


My advice is to say your piece and bow out. Let them make up their minds. Whether they believe you or not is irrelevant....


Well it is proven in the comics that Shepard did blow up the relay, but if you don't have the Arrival dlc then in war assets and the conversation w/ Balak it denies that Shepard did it. Doesn't mean it's not canon though.


Its possible to have never recruited either Garrus or Wrex in ME1, but you never see anyone arguing that recruiting them isnt canon.

#19204
BleedingUranium

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HellishFiend wrote...

Dwailing wrote...


Guys, I think I need a little support.  I'm engaged in the argument of my life over the canonicity of Arrival, and I need some backup.


My advice is to say your piece and bow out. Let them make up their minds. Whether they believe you or not is irrelevant....


All novels (except Deception) and all comics are canon. Period. Bioware says so. Arrival was mentioned in Conviction, making it canon, and James talks about events from Conviction in game, making it even more solid. So, Bioware has stated Arrival's canon. You can choose to not do it, but it becomes a non-canon playthrough.

#19205
Turbo_J

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HellishFiend wrote...

Turbo_J wrote...

Dammit! How can James like someone he NEVER MET!

"too bad about Tarquin. I was starting to like him."

NEVER took James on any Tuchanka missions.
Tarquin was NEVER on my ship.

Shared memories I tell you!


Intresting. I wonder if James' thoughts throughout the game can consistently be seen as parallel to Shepards?


Almost perfectly IIRC, but that is why I'm recording each time I talk with him. So I don't have to go by memory.

#19206
Dwailing

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byne wrote...

TJBartlemus wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

Dwailing wrote...


Guys, I think I need a little support.  I'm engaged in the argument of my life over the canonicity of Arrival, and I need some backup.


My advice is to say your piece and bow out. Let them make up their minds. Whether they believe you or not is irrelevant....


Well it is proven in the comics that Shepard did blow up the relay, but if you don't have the Arrival dlc then in war assets and the conversation w/ Balak it denies that Shepard did it. Doesn't mean it's not canon though.


Its possible to have never recruited either Garrus or Wrex in ME1, but you never see anyone arguing that recruiting them isnt canon.


And those people say WE'RE grasping at emergency induction ports. <_<

#19207
HellishFiend

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Gernbuster wrote...


As far as the cigarettes, I'm quite sure that implies that TIM spent a significant amount of time staring at the proto-reaper, and quite likely undergoing indoctrination hallucinations in the process. As for the excessive amount of workstations and consoles (seriously, there are several dozen of them), I havent been able to form a speculation on that. 

edit: sorry, fixed the formatting

 

It definitly looks like TIM is becoming a Reaper agent during ME3, but why is he spending his time watching the Reaper, he is the greatest Reaper expert in the whole galaxy. He knew about indoctrination and how it works for decades. He should have known that he gets indoctrinated, if he keeps the Reaper brain close to him.
Guess he knew from the very beginning of ME2 that he may lose himself to the Reapers and thats why he didn't put the control chip inside Shepards brain. He wanted Shepard to stop him if neccessary.


One thing is for sure, and that's that TIM's ultimate goal has always been to advance Humanity. He's also greedy and opportunistic. Easy for the Reapers to exploit. The first thing they'd do when indoctrinating him is make him believe that working closely with Reaper tech is a good thing for the Human Race. And its all downhill from there. 

Modifié par HellishFiend, 14 juin 2012 - 11:32 .


#19208
Trauma3x

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Its probably been mentioned but could the "tech" cerberus used to resurrect Shep with, have a little taint of indoctrination (i.e. Reaper tech)?

#19209
paxxton

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HellishFiend wrote...

 

Cronos Station:
I confirmed the observation that Cronos Station seems to follow a progression from Red -> Blue -> Green throughout the areas. Red area is the largest and has the most combat. Fire and destruction are prevalent. Blue area contains the proto-reaper, and some fighting. Green area is simply the staircase to TIM's office. No fighting, and powers act strange. 

My Shepard (non import, heavy combat losses) was not short of breath during this portion. 
I confirmed that the area with the third video console (if you pass the hole leading down to the blue area and circle around) has a large area open to space due to a hull breach. If you have grenades, or a grenade-type weapon (I had the scorpion), you can confirm it is open to space by firing through the hole. Your grenade will pass directly through it and out into space. It will even continue to act like it is under the effects of gravity, continuing to fall and eventually exploding. If you instead attempt to fire a power out into space, your power will mysteriously fire off in a seemingly random direction and hit the bulkhead. However, I was able to find one tiny area that allowed me to shoot a power out into space that partially clipped through the bulkhead. I believe that was unintentional because it was very difficult to find. It seems that it doesnt want you firing the powers into space. There is also a door (locked, of course) that appears to lead straight to where the hull breach is, rather than to a room of any kind. 

This shouldnt be possible for three reasons: If there was a barrier holding the atmosphere in, you wouldnt be able to shoot through it, as seen in the hangar when you first arrive. Additionally, your squad has been moving directly towards the interior of the station, meaning youve been moving away from the exterior, and it should be nowhere near you at this point. This is also evidenced by the muffled and barely audible sounds of weapons impacting the station. Lastly, there are no signs of ships or battle visible through the hull breach, which doesnt make sense.

I have also seen it argued that this is a glitch due to the unloading of nearby areas, but I don’t buy that. If it's a glitch, why do your spells randomly fly off in another direction when you try to shoot out into it? An effect that again rears its head when you get to the green staircase leading to TIM's office.  To my knowledge these are the only two times in the game that you experience this strange effect. If it werent for the power misdirection thing, I would be more inclined to think this could be an honest mistake. 

I believe I found another location where that strange reflection cubemap is used (the one from the London apartment that resembles Shepard's cabin). When you go up that last ladder when on your way to the blue section, if you look up at any of the windows in the devastated lab, you see what looks like that cubemap reflection in the windows.

The final "tip" of where the fighter's path of destruction ends just so happens to be right where you descend into the blue area. Yet there is no sign of the remains of the fighter. The path of destruction also seems to originate from the aforementioned hull breach into space. 

There are a lot creepy "Reaperish" sound effects, including the horn and growl, in the blue area. There is also a constant high pitched hum. 

It looks to me personally like there is an overabundance of consoles and workstations in the area observing the proto-reaper. Two entire levels of them. Could be nothing significant, though. Lighting also behaves strangely here. Corners seem to get darker when you get closer, and brighter as you step away. Not sure if this is consistent with other parts of the game. Also, there is a door in the area with the consoles that appears to lead out into open space, if you look at it from the other side. 

Odd whispering/stuttering/muttering during VI conversation


As far as the cigarettes, I'm quite sure that implies that TIM spent a significant amount of time staring at the proto-reaper, and quite likely undergoing indoctrination hallucinations in the process. As for the excessive amount of workstations and consoles (seriously, there are several dozen of them), I havent been able to form a speculation on that. 

edit: sorry, fixed the formatting

Very thorough post! It'd be great if you could add some screenshots, videos and sound files. It seems that the station was either indoctrinating Shepard or was a hallucination. That strange biotics' behavior may be due to the electromagnetic field.

Modifié par paxxton, 14 juin 2012 - 11:37 .


#19210
HellishFiend

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paxxton wrote...

Very thoroough post! It'd be great if you could add some screenshots, videos and sound files. It seems that tthe station was either indoctrinating Shepard or was a hallucination. That strange biotics' behavior may be due to the electromagnetic field.


Thanks. :)

I may do that. It's just a lot of work since I play on 360. I have a digital camcorder with A/V in that I can use to record footage, but then I have to transfer it over to the PC and edit it before I can upload it. Still, I'll consider it. 

Modifié par HellishFiend, 14 juin 2012 - 11:38 .


#19211
Dwailing

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BleedingUranium wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

Dwailing wrote...


Guys, I think I need a little support.  I'm engaged in the argument of my life over the canonicity of Arrival, and I need some backup.


My advice is to say your piece and bow out. Let them make up their minds. Whether they believe you or not is irrelevant....


All novels (except Deception) and all comics are canon. Period. Bioware says so. Arrival was mentioned in Conviction, making it canon, and James talks about events from Conviction in game, making it even more solid. So, Bioware has stated Arrival's canon. You can choose to not do it, but it becomes a non-canon playthrough.


Yeah, Deception has enough plot holes that if it was a dreadnought, it wouldn't even exist because there would be more holes than material.  I remember being part of the Anti-Deception movement.  I wonder what some of the old crowd is doing now...  I remember actually getting to TALK to JoeLaTurkey, the writer of Gabby and Ken.  That was awesome.

Edit: I should point out that, even if it's a non-canon playthrough, Bioware will still adapt the EC to explain what happened.  I wonder if there will be an indoctrination device on the Normandy if you didn't play Arrival, and if you did play Arrival they explain Shep's indoctrination with that business with Object Rho.  In fact, if you didn't play Arrival and there was some kind of device on the Normandy, then more than just Shepard could be indoctrinated.  So, if you didn't play Arrival, the indoctrination effects are actually WORSE than if you did.

Modifié par Dwailing, 14 juin 2012 - 11:44 .


#19212
BatmanTurian

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Turbo_J wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

Turbo_J wrote...

Dammit! How can James like someone he NEVER MET!

"too bad about Tarquin. I was starting to like him."

NEVER took James on any Tuchanka missions.
Tarquin was NEVER on my ship.

Shared memories I tell you!


Oh wow... i never realized.... holy ****.... omg.

So there ARE shared memories in the game, which is the last piece of IT symptoms that we haven't been able to identify. We should look for more.

EDIT: unless of course that is a writer's mistake, which might be likely. But I find it suspect.


I posted about it the other day. It's just James; Mr. you hear that hum. Vega.

He knows about Anderson and Sanders. How? That was a private conversation between Shep, Anderson and Sanders.

I'm looking for more.

edit - that's what I get for not proof reading. lol


Conviction says that James is the guard for Shepard while he/she's in the brig. Shepard can be an amplifier to indoctrinate others around him/her, so James had plenty of time (six months) to get to know Shepard but also be exposed to whatever was wafting off Shepard from Rho/Baby Reaper.

Modifié par BatmanTurian, 14 juin 2012 - 11:39 .


#19213
TJBartlemus

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TJBartlemus wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

estebanus wrote...

Ok, please get back on topic, Chris Priestly is on another of his locking sprees tonight!


We're still talking about Mass Effect so all is well.


Well most of us are....

Has anyone checked this out? Found it and thought it strange. It doesn't seem faked and it certainly shows that the closer you get to the beam , the pitch gets higher.



Also has anyone determined that the beam in the end is the same as the one you went up in, but now the crucible is changing the energy? :blush:


Bumped it cause no one answered. :crying: Or gave any explaination...

#19214
HellishFiend

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Trauma3x wrote...

Its probably been mentioned but could the "tech" cerberus used to resurrect Shep with, have a little taint of indoctrination (i.e. Reaper tech)?


Impossible to be sure, but the current common belief is that the tech within Shepard is not responsible for any of the Indoctrination effects. 

#19215
Gernbuster

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Trauma3x wrote...

Its probably been mentioned but could the "tech" cerberus used to resurrect Shep with, have a little taint of indoctrination (i.e. Reaper tech)?



I am pretty sure he was resurected with Reaper tech. Maybe the same sort TIM got inside his body. TIM is doing research on that stuff since the first contact war. His implants are special anyway, they are not working as they should be. Every other person, who had contact with the object which gives you these implants ended up beeing some sort of husk.
And once more everyone knows Cerberus is is using hell lot of Reaper stuff and its still impossible to bring dead people back to live.
Even Miranda doesn't know what was inside the black boxes, which where delivered to the Lazzarus project and the only person who could tell you what was used to bring Shep back to life was Willson. And guess what he is dead.

Btw: in the last moments of Paul Greyson life, he was sure the Reaper tech inside his body could keep him alive even if he was deadly wounded. It is quit a long quote with many interesting facts in it. Posted Image

Modifié par Gernbuster, 14 juin 2012 - 11:47 .


#19216
paxxton

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A thought came to my mind (Posted Image). If you haven't played MP your Galaxy at War map is red whereas if you played it a lot it's blue. Since red is good in the IT interpretation why it is used to indicate that you haven't fought Reaper forces a lot. Do you see the inversion?

Modifié par paxxton, 14 juin 2012 - 11:46 .


#19217
HellishFiend

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TJBartlemus wrote...

TJBartlemus wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

estebanus wrote...

Ok, please get back on topic, Chris Priestly is on another of his locking sprees tonight!


We're still talking about Mass Effect so all is well.


Well most of us are....

Has anyone checked this out? Found it and thought it strange. It doesn't seem faked and it certainly shows that the closer you get to the beam , the pitch gets higher.



Also has anyone determined that the beam in the end is the same as the one you went up in, but now the crucible is changing the energy? :blush:


Bumped it cause no one answered. :crying: Or gave any explaination...


Sorry. The beam at the end is feeding into the Citadel tower and is oriented away from Earth, not towards it. So it isnt the Conduit beam, to be sure.

As for the odd sound coming from the beam, I'm not sure what to make of it, to be honest. 

#19218
Dwailing

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TJBartlemus wrote...

TJBartlemus wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

estebanus wrote...

Ok, please get back on topic, Chris Priestly is on another of his locking sprees tonight!


We're still talking about Mass Effect so all is well.


Well most of us are....

Has anyone checked this out? Found it and thought it strange. It doesn't seem faked and it certainly shows that the closer you get to the beam , the pitch gets higher.



Also has anyone determined that the beam in the end is the same as the one you went up in, but now the crucible is changing the energy? :blush:


Bumped it cause no one answered. :crying: Or gave any explaination...


It's weird, I could SWEAR that I've heard that sound somewhere before.  Or maybe I'm just imagining things.  I don't know, but it sounds familiar.

#19219
MaximizedAction

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TJBartlemus wrote...

TJBartlemus wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

estebanus wrote...

Ok, please get back on topic, Chris Priestly is on another of his locking sprees tonight!


We're still talking about Mass Effect so all is well.


Well most of us are....

Has anyone checked this out? Found it and thought it strange. It doesn't seem faked and it certainly shows that the closer you get to the beam , the pitch gets higher.



Also has anyone determined that the beam in the end is the same as the one you went up in, but now the crucible is changing the energy? :blush:


Bumped it cause no one answered. :crying: Or gave any explaination...


You ain't heard nuffin, ok?

There have been quite a few debates about those sounds, especially those three high pitch noises you hear during the flashbacks. I think user gunslinger was especially involved into it. Maybe when he is back on we could ask him on whether he has new ideas on how the sounds are connected to the visuals.

And btw, any new concensus on why THOSE three flashbacks play. I don't remember it being discussed since 3 weeks...

#19220
Dwailing

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paxxton wrote...

A thought came to my mind (Posted Image). If you haven't played MP your Galaxy at War map is red whereas if you played it a lot it's blue. Since red is good in the IT interpretation why it is used to indicate that you haven't fought Reaper forces a lot. Do you see the inversion?


Huh, that could mean something.  Or it could just be that the galaxy map is red to represent the struggles against the Reapers and that the loss of the red coloration could just represent the reduction in conflict in the various theaters (Or something like that, anyway.).

#19221
BatmanTurian

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god these people are so deep in denial. I think I'm done with the rest of BSN.

#19222
ZerebusPrime

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 So I completed my run through ME2.  The only relevant piece of information I have to discuss that has not already been discussed to death comes from the Aequitas Mission.  Some of you may recall that Aequitas was supposed to be some sort of major hint given to us before the release of ME3... or it may have been a red herring (and I tend to think that the red herring is a literal clue, given the deceptive nature of the ending of the game).  I was not privy to those hints at the time nor do I know where to find them now, so I'll be dependent on someone else to provide answers to any questions that might be raised about them.

Anyway, the Aequitas Mission centers around an abandoned mine where a mining team unearthed a Reaper indoctrination and huskification device.  In the early stages of the mission you find memos from the miners that detail their deterioration.  In particular:

A Strange Glow
Cooper and Joregenzen say they saw that damned alien thing glowing and hell if I'm going near it to prove them wrong. I don't get paid enough to expose myself to weird alien artifacts. I have to admit, though...that's an awful pretty sound coming from that back room. 


And then...

Something's Different
Cooper, Joregenzen, and them ain't doing so well. Not feeling so good myself either. Stay near the machine, feel better. Not sure I want to let them Elanus folk take it. Think it should stay right here with us. 


You can find a picture of the device on the link I provided.  Suffice to say that it's primarily a glowing orb.

So from this we learn that...

1. A powerful Reaper indoctrination and huskification device emits blue light/energy.

2. Once you are sufficiently exposed to that signal, you are drawn into the blue light (please, no Skyline jokes).

3. After some point if you try to leave the light you will become physically ill, so powerful is its pull.

4. Even if you try to avoid contact, the signal eventually draws you in closer for a look.

We can apply these lessons to the Conduit Run of ME3 and the final choices sequence like so:

1.  The beam to the Citadel oh so bright blue.  It's also a much, much larger and more powerful mechanism than the Aequitas device (or the Arrival device).  In fact, it's such a point of fixation that should Shepard try not to run towards it, he collapses for no good reason.  IIRC, there was a memo warning that people who approach the beam do not come back the same, so the so called transport beam could in fact be part of a large scale indoctrination device.

2. Remember how the three choice paths for Control, Synthesis, and Destruction seem to line up with the physical surroundings around the conduit?  All three choice paths have you walking towards the beam, albeit deviating to the left or right just a bit based on circumstances, willpower/EMS, and personal selection.  Walking away from the beam, again, results in game over.  I would posit that the entire Citadel sequence is occurring inside Shepard's head, but he may still be stumbling towards that indoctrination beam in the real world (and reaching it probably means getting turned into a husk, much as the device on Aequitas did to the miners).  What's special about the Destroy ending here is that you manage to walk up to an explosive tank and get it to explode in your face, smacking yourself back into reality.

3. If the London conduit really is a massive "lure them in" indoctrination device, it would finally explain why everyone is fixated on getting to London.  The conduit/device is subtly calling everyone towards it.

Modifié par ZerebusPrime, 14 juin 2012 - 11:52 .


#19223
TJBartlemus

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HellishFiend wrote...

Sorry. The beam at the end is feeding into the Citadel tower and is oriented away from Earth, not towards it. So it isnt the Conduit beam, to be sure.

As for the odd sound coming from the beam, I'm not sure what to make of it, to be honest. 


Then what happened to the beam? It would make more sense that the Crucible is more like a lens and uses dark energy to redirect the energy to suit which decision you choose. Otherwise then the Crucible is making all the energy? It has to come from somewhere...

#19224
Gernbuster

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HellishFiend wrote...

Trauma3x wrote...

Its probably been mentioned but could the "tech" cerberus used to resurrect Shep with, have a little taint of indoctrination (i.e. Reaper tech)?


Impossible to be sure, but the current common belief is that the tech within Shepard is not responsible for any of the Indoctrination effects. 



Btw can you remember my listen to the Reaper voices= renegade?
 implants get stronger and there is more and similarity to Paul Greyson or TIM in the dream sequenz, if you do so Posted Image

#19225
HellishFiend

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TJBartlemus wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

Sorry. The beam at the end is feeding into the Citadel tower and is oriented away from Earth, not towards it. So it isnt the Conduit beam, to be sure.

As for the odd sound coming from the beam, I'm not sure what to make of it, to be honest. 


Then what happened to the beam? It would make more sense that the Crucible is more like a lens and uses dark energy to redirect the energy to suit which decision you choose. Otherwise then the Crucible is making all the energy? It has to come from somewhere...


Dont know, but we're operating under the assumption that those events arent actually taking place, so I havent put a lot of thought into it.