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[BatmanTurian]

Arian Dynas wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

Arian Dynas wrote...

No I think it's more your method of phrasing things, your posts (mine as well) have a certain tone that, if read the wrong (or right, depending on your interpretation) way makes you sound harsher than you intend.

Well, thank you for the honest observation. I'll keep an eye out for that on my posts if you do the same on yours. My opinion on yours is that *sigh*ing, employing sarcasm, or the use of caps, or prefaces like "dude...", are very poor ways to impress a point upon somebody... 

Smileys added to reduce harshness. :happy:

But yeah, peace.

for me, it's your avatar. I have a subconcious dislike of Batarians from three games of them being jerkasses. But I try to read your posts with neutrality.

Really? In my case, he's the first Batarian I ever liked!

Like I said, it's subliminal, subconcious, whatever. But I'm aware of it so I cancel it out in my own mind, if that makes any sense.

[Arian Dynas]

HagarIshay wrote...

Got a question, if you don't mind. I'm sure someone asked it before, but I'm not going to read... 783 pages to look for one question.

So, the prothean VI on Thessia talk to Shepard. Then exactly when Kai Leng approches the VI goes to hide because Leng was indoc. If that's true, then why didn't the VI closed itself if Shepard was indoc?

I read that the VI could have talked about Shepard and not Leng, but that doesn't make sense. Why didn't the VI immidietly detected the indoctrination? It happened exactly when Leng showed up?

As they said in the Princess Bride, there's a big difference between all dead and mostly dead. Shepard is in the process OF indoctrination, rather than actually being fully indoctrinated like Kai Leng, also, you'll notice the VI doesn't really tell him anything really, in fact he spends most of his time being evasive and leading Shepard around, and then later when you're in Chronus Station, he comments about how security protocols have been overwritten, which, well, why would he comment about that at all?

[Ageless Face]

BatmanTurian wrote...


Shepard isn't indoctrinated. Shepard is in the "process" of being indoctrinated. Shepard doesn't actually become indoctrinated until Shep gives in to the reapers. Kai Leng has Reapertech and is already indoctrinated. It was Kai Leng that the VI was protesting about.

So doesn't that mean that the dreams Shepard is dreaming and the hum Vega is hearing are not effects of indoctrination?

[Bill Casey]

Indoctrinated means you have been imbued with a belief structure...
You are confusing being brainwashed with being subjected to brainwashing techniques...

Modifié par Bill Casey, 15 juin 2012 - 06:38 .

[HellishFiend]

HagarIshay wrote...

Got a question, if you don't mind. I'm sure someone asked it before, but I'm not going to read... 783 pages to look for one question.

So, the prothean VI on Thessia talk to Shepard. Then exactly when Kai Leng approches the VI goes to hide because Leng was indoc. If that's true, then why didn't the VI closed itself if Shepard was indoc?

I read that the VI could have talked about Shepard and not Leng, but that doesn't make sense. Why didn't the VI immidietly detected the indoctrination? It happened exactly when Leng showed up?

Not at all. If I'm welcome in your thread, you're most certainly welcome in ours!

A reasonable conclusion can be reached that the Prothean VI can only detect either fully indoctrinated individuals whose mental condition has already started to deteriorate somewhat, or implant-based indoctrination where, basically, their indoctrination is being caused by physical reaper tech rather than the other methods listed in the codes (infrasonic noise, subliminal, etc). Additionally, it is stated by both Javik and the VI that indoctrinated agents contributed to their downfall, so it stands to reason that their Indoc detection was not infallible.

Essentially, Shepard is not indoctrinated at any point that he has dialog with a Prothean VI. For that matter, we believe he is never indoctrinated at all unless he picks something other than Destroy in the decision chamber. 

[BatmanTurian]

HagarIshay wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...


Shepard isn't indoctrinated. Shepard is in the "process" of being indoctrinated. Shepard doesn't actually become indoctrinated until Shep gives in to the reapers. Kai Leng has Reapertech and is already indoctrinated. It was Kai Leng that the VI was protesting about.

So doesn't that mean that the dreams Shepard is dreaming and the hum Vega is hearing are not effects of indoctrination?

They are symptoms of the process.

[HellishFiend]

Arian Dynas wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

Andromidius wrote...

If it helps I don't think you come across as an arse, Hellish. Maybe blunt and direct at times, but nothing that bothers me.

And that Infrasonic sound discover. Oh ma gawd. That's pretty damning stuff. Is it only in those scenes, or in others?

Yeah, direct and objective is what I've been going for lately, and I'm glad that not everyone has taken offense to it. Everyone's opinion matters to me though (heck thats why I started trying to be more objective in the first place), so if I'm coming off as offensive to anybody then I need to change it. That isnt how I want my role to be remembered in all this. 

It's not really that we take offense to it, in as much as it's "You seem harsh, uncaring and emotionless, focused with keeping things serious." basically acting the fuddy-duddy. If that makes sense.

It does. 

[plfranke]

HagarIshay wrote...

Got a question, if you don't mind. I'm sure someone asked it before, but I'm not going to read... 783 pages to look for one question.

So, the prothean VI on Thessia talk to Shepard. Then exactly when Kai Leng approches the VI goes to hide because Leng was indoc. If that's true, then why didn't the VI closed itself if Shepard was indoc?

I read that the VI could have talked about Shepard and not Leng, but that doesn't make sense. Why didn't the VI immidietly detected the indoctrination? It happened exactly when Leng showed up?

I personally believe that the VI was planted by the Reapers though there are other reasons. I believe the consensus here is that the VI can only detect those who have been indoctrinated not who are currently being indoctrinated.  Also it's not like the VI was perfect the protheans were brought down by indoctrinated agents after all.

[Rosewind]

HellishFiend wrote...

Arian Dynas wrote...

Really? In my case, he's the first Batarian I ever liked!

No clue who that is they all look the same to me......

[plfranke]

Hey guys if on my first playthrough I was dead set on controlling the Reapers but picked to destroy them by accident because I did't know where I was going... Was I or was I not indoctrinated?

[Arian Dynas]

Rosewind wrote...

Arian Dynas wrote...

Rosewind wrote...

Arian Dynas wrote...

Auralius Carolus wrote...

Arian Dynas wrote...

Nah I kid, but yeah, it is my own personal unpleasant brand of charm coming through.

And you guys wonder why I don't imagine myself to be the nicest person, or paticuarly worthy of your praise.

It's part of who I am, you shouldn't deny yours either. We're all buddies here, and buddies can take a bit of rough edges.

I can't help but get the impression that you're a "Sheriff of Rottingham" type.

Never watched "Men in Tights" so idk.

Though I do look alot like Alan Rickman as the Sheriff in the Kevin Costner one. Though my beard isn't nearly so magnificent.

Do you have his voice?

Hmm. I suppose so. I can sound very convincingly like him if I pitch my voice a bit lower.

Do it with the accent and my mum would love you lol.

Hmm, I'm not my father, I'm not in to older women.

[deltacypresss]

plfranke wrote...

Hey guys if on my first playthrough I was dead set on controlling the Reapers but picked to destroy them by accident because I did't know where I was going... Was I or was I not indoctrinated?

indoc'd but clumsy.

also. princess bride AND men in tights referenced within 2 pages? NERDGASM.

[Arian Dynas]

Rosewind wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

Arian Dynas wrote...

Really? In my case, he's the first Batarian I ever liked!

No clue who that is they all look the same to me......

It's...

well it's Balak.

And I hate Balak (not in the "I hate his character because he sucks being written way" the "OH I HATE THIS MOTHER****ER AND WANT TO KILL HIM WITH A RUSTY KNIFE!" way.)

You can tell because he's wearing red armor, and only Balak wore completely red armor in ME1. That and his flesh is yellowish colored.

[Ageless Face]

BatmanTurian wrote...


They are symptoms of the process.

Oh, okay then. Thanks for the answers.

[Auralius Carolus]

Arian Dynas wrote...

Auralius Carolus wrote...

Arian Dynas wrote...

Nah I kid, but yeah, it is my own personal unpleasant brand of charm coming through.

And you guys wonder why I don't imagine myself to be the nicest person, or paticuarly worthy of your praise.

It's part of who I am, you shouldn't deny yours either. We're all buddies here, and buddies can take a bit of rough edges.

I can't help but get the impression that you're a "Sheriff of Rottingham" type.

Never watched "Men in Tights" so idk.

You never WHAT????

What's wrong with you man? Argh!

[Arian Dynas]

HellishFiend wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

for me, it's your avatar. I have a subconcious dislike of Batarians from three games of them being jerkasses. But I try to read your posts with neutrality.

I've been considering changing the avatar. I mainly changed it because I wanted it to be something unique that stands out, and because I like the Batarian characters in MP. The only reason I havent changed it yet is because I figure people identify me by it at this point. But maybe it's time to change it after all. 

Nah, leave it, you can redeem the Batarian race.

[Bill Casey]

There's a lovely episode of Star Trek: The Next Generation where Jean Luc Picard is captured and subjected to physical and psychological conditioning techniques designed to wear down his mind...

This is the closest non-literature parallel I have readily available...

www.youtube.com/watch

Modifié par Bill Casey, 15 juin 2012 - 06:49 .

[MegaSovereign]

Here is a quote I read on another thread. I'm sure number 4 is debatable, but honestly the fact that Weekes and Gamble do talk about the ending in a literal sense makes me doubt the IT entirely.

osbornep wrote...

Posted this somewhere else, but the thread pretty much died after I did, so I thought I'd just re-post it here:

Here's most of the evidence I'm aware of against IT. This is intended more as reference than as definitive refutation, as I don't think there is any such thing. The evidence is also presented in an extremely quick fashion; I'll leave more detailed discussion to further posts. I'm not an IT supporter, but if the EC comes out and IT is true, I'll certainly be willing to admit my mistake. Still, looking back it will be useful to have a catalogue of all the evidence we had for/against the theory before the EC came out. Anyway, here goes:

1. Mike Gamble's tweets:

twitter.com/#!/GambleMike/status/189481533239865344

Above is a link to a thread discussing another tweet from Gamble where he defends the synthesis ending against the objection that it is worse than control. Why is he defending the synthesis ending if it is the losing ending?

2. Unofficial interview with Patrick Weekes:

social.bioware.com/forums/forum/1/topic/355/index/11154234/1

Everything in this interview is paraphrased, not directly quoted, so perhaps it should be taken with a grain of salt. Still, I'm going to assume that it is mostly accurate. Of particular interest are two passages:

"Yes. We would never, ever do anything that made the player feel, on replay, that it would be better for everyone on the Citadel if they just died. The Citadel has emergency shelters and kinetic barriers - even if it blows up, millions might survive."

If IT is true, the crucible hasn't fired yet, so the question of whether or not people on the Citadel survived doesn't even arise. So why is Weekes saying this? Also, in response to a question regarding whether or not the relay explosions destroyed entire solar systems, there is this passage:

"We really didn't mean to imply that the whole galaxy had been destroyed. People interpreted the ending in ways we really didn't expect."

If IT is true, the relay explosions don't even occur. So Weekes would effectively be clarifying events that didn't take place. Also, the suggestion that the developers did not anticipate that players would draw a connection between Arrival and the ending is problematic from the point of view of IT. I've always found it unlikely that they would not expect us to make this connection, but that they would expect us to make connections with Object Rho, Ashley and Kaiden's armor in ME1 & ME2, the Rachni Queen's description of indoctrination, etc.

3.
The ending message and the "Mission Accomplished" achievement. These are relatively self-explanatory. There's no message at the end of Blade Runner saying "Deckard is not a replicant"; there's no message at the end of High Plains Drifter saying "By the way, that dude you saw disappear into the desert? TOTALLY NOT the ghost of Marshal Jim Duncan." So why include the message at the end of ME3, if IT is true?

4.
The whole EMS thing: This is a very murky issue, so I'm just bringing it up to start discussion. If your EMS is low, you can only get the destroy option. So why is your reward for doing better the opportunity to choose losing endings? That seems unlikely. Also, here's what I believe to be a passage from the leaked script:

"Shepard must now make his final decision - to control the Reapers, to destroy the Reapers, or if they had a perfect game to become one with the Reapers."

We can guess that the idea of "becoming one with the Reapers" is what evolved into synthesis. So the association of this ending with a 'perfect game' suggests that the developers didn't think of it as a losing ending. Here's the source:

www.reddit.com/r/masseffect/comments/rgfq2/the_leaked_script_was_not_responsible_for_mass/

Since I'm a bit lazy and didn't do a ridiculous amount of research for this, I'm not 100% sure if this is reliable. If anyone can debunk this, I'd appreciate that information, and apologize in advance if it turns out incorrect. Again, this is all intended more for reference than as some kind of definitive refutation. Anyway, I hope this is useful to the OP, and hope that many speculations will ensue.

EDIT: Fixed paragraphs

[Arian Dynas]

plfranke wrote...

Hey guys if on my first playthrough I was dead set on controlling the Reapers but picked to destroy them by accident because I did't know where I was going... Was I or was I not indoctrinated?

Nope. Since Destroy is the only one you have to conciously choose. The others lock you in since it's the Reapers taking advantage of your confusion.

[Arian Dynas]

Auralius Carolus wrote...

Arian Dynas wrote...

Auralius Carolus wrote...

Arian Dynas wrote...

Nah I kid, but yeah, it is my own personal unpleasant brand of charm coming through.

And you guys wonder why I don't imagine myself to be the nicest person, or paticuarly worthy of your praise.

It's part of who I am, you shouldn't deny yours either. We're all buddies here, and buddies can take a bit of rough edges.

I can't help but get the impression that you're a "Sheriff of Rottingham" type.

Never watched "Men in Tights" so idk.

You never WHAT????

What's wrong with you man? Argh!

Well I'm willing to bet you've never watched the Marx brothers.

[HellishFiend]

plfranke wrote...

Hey guys if on my first playthrough I was dead set on controlling the Reapers but picked to destroy them by accident because I did't know where I was going... Was I or was I not indoctrinated?

Good question... To be fair, according to the metagaming experience we think Bioware planned out, you were indoctrinated since you wanted to pick Control (I know that feel...), but you may be off the hook since you wound up picking Destroy.

Speaking of that, did we ever determine if the LegendSave locks in your initial decision and that it cant be changed? Or was that debunked?

[BatmanTurian]

HagarIshay wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...


They are symptoms of the process.

Oh, okay then. Thanks for the answers.

you're welcome. some of the others had better ones with more information. I'm just more short and sweet.

[Bill Casey]

Arian Dynas wrote...

Nah, leave it, you can redeem the Batarian race.

Batarian Gratitude
Batarian Refugee

[Rosewind]

Arian Dynas wrote...

Rosewind wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

Arian Dynas wrote...

Really? In my case, he's the first Batarian I ever liked!

No clue who that is they all look the same to me......

It's...

well it's Balak.

And I hate Balak (not in the "I hate his character because he sucks being written way" the "OH I HATE THIS MOTHER****ER AND WANT TO KILL HIM WITH A RUSTY KNIFE!" way.)

You can tell because he's wearing red armor, and only Balak wore completely red armor in ME1. That and his flesh is yellowish colored.

Oh the one from bring down the sky!!! Yeah he was a meany, he made garrus cry well not really

and then in ME3 he made me cry when he said he was the highest ranking batarian in the hegenomy, that was abit sad only cause I had no clue who he was....

Modifié par Rosewind, 15 juin 2012 - 06:52 .

[HellishFiend]

Bill Casey wrote...

There's a lovely episode of Star Trek: The Next Generation where Jean Luc Picard is captured and subjected to physical and psychological conditioning techniques designed to wear down his mind...

This is the closest non-literature parallel I have readily available...

www.youtube.com/watch

Picard picked Destroy.  He does admit towards the end of the ep though that he was tempted to pick Synthesis... I think...