Aller au contenu

Photo

Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark II!


55528 réponses à ce sujet

#20401
gunslinger_ruiz

gunslinger_ruiz
  • Members
  • 1 650 messages
Debating whether or not to post a drabble of a ME-OC fanfiction I threw together when I didn't feel like playing through ME3 since it's slow, or just go to bed since I've got work in the morning. But why not both, it is semi-on topic being a Nightmare:

Dead trees. Looking up. Their dead branches look like hands reaching for the metal ceiling. Why is there a metal ceiling? I look ahead and see a hallway, metallic, and a door at the end. To my sides and behind me there’s more dead trees and foliage. Feels familiar. Feels like Arcturus Station. Did a rotation here, guard detail for Admiral Hackett during some meet and greet with the Turians and Parliament. Stood around a door for hours, on station for a month. I run ahead to the door, feels like I should go that way. Can’t run fast, feels like I’m moving through water. When I reach the door I hear an explosion. It opens to the same hallway I was in but now the dead trees are on fire. Under attack. My rifle, where is it? Always have my rifle on guard duty. My biotics, I have my biotics. Wade through the fire to the next door, go through, it’s the same hallway but people are screaming somewhere. Go through the door again and freeze. It’s Bevele, her back to me, blue hair-tentacles and all. Commando leathers. More screaming in the distance. Her biotics are down.

“Bev?” Nothing. “Bevele!” Nothing. “Hey, blue!” She turns sharply, screams in fear. I’m afraid, nearly shaking, something is coming.

---

And goodnight everyone, I'm sure things will pick up in the morning.

Modifié par gunslinger_ruiz, 16 juin 2012 - 09:28 .


#20402
Salient Archer

Salient Archer
  • Members
  • 660 messages

Corik wrote...

Someone could give me an update of the last hours? Won't repeat again but I'm really interested if there's something new :P

Not really anything concrete, just more infrasound, a discussion on the QEC being a bit convenient and this and that. I posted a breakdown on the quote from the final hours about indoctrination but that about it.

#20403
DJBare

DJBare
  • Members
  • 6 510 messages

Corik wrote...

Hi guys. Sorry to ask but lots of new pages and too little time: Anything important in the last 13 hours?

Well, there was a pyramid building contest, a lot of off topic discussions....oh wait, you mean about I.T? sometimes I have to remind myself what this thread was originally about, cannot believe how many posts/pages I've skipped looking for the meat.

#20404
Arian Dynas

Arian Dynas
  • Members
  • 3 799 messages

gunslinger_ruiz wrote...

Debating whether or not to post a drabble of a ME-OC fanfiction I threw together when I didn't feel like playing through ME3 since it's slow, or just go to bed since I've got work in the morning. But why not both, it is semi-on topic being a Nightmare:

Dead trees. Looking up. Their dead branches look like hands reaching for the metal ceiling. Why is there a metal ceiling? I look ahead and see a hallway, metallic, and a door at the end. To my sides and behind me there’s more dead trees and foliage. Feels familiar. Feels like Arcturus Station. Did a rotation here, guard detail for Admiral Hackett during some meet and greet with the Turians and Parliament. Stood around a door for hours, on station for a month. I run ahead to the door, feels like I should go that way. Can’t run fast, feels like I’m moving through water. When I reach the door I hear an explosion. It opens to the same hallway I was in but now the dead trees are on fire. Under attack. My rifle, where is it? Always have my rifle on guard duty. My biotics, I have my biotics. Wade through the fire to the next door, go through, it’s the same hallway but people are screaming somewhere. Go through the door again and freeze. It’s Bevele, her back to me, blue hair-tentacles and all. Commando leathers. More screaming in the distance. Her biotics are down.

“Bev?” Nothing. “Bevele!” Nothing. “Hey, blue!” She turns sharply, screams in fear. I’m afraid, nearly shaking, something is coming.

---

And goodnight everyone, I'm sure things will pick up in the morning.


Posted Image

I'd read that.

Modifié par Arian Dynas, 16 juin 2012 - 10:33 .


#20405
Corik

Corik
  • Members
  • 471 messages

Salient Archer wrote...

Corik wrote...

Someone could give me an update of the last hours? Won't repeat again but I'm really interested if there's something new :P

Not really anything concrete, just more infrasound, a discussion on the QEC being a bit convenient and this and that. I posted a breakdown on the quote from the final hours about indoctrination but that about it.


Thanks, that was really interesting to read :D

#20406
Arian Dynas

Arian Dynas
  • Members
  • 3 799 messages
Night folks. See you all soon.

#20407
Salient Archer

Salient Archer
  • Members
  • 660 messages
Peace Arian.

Wow, this is a real downtime for this thread, no action at all... I'd even welcome a few literalists to debate to save us from this dead quiet.

#20408
Corik

Corik
  • Members
  • 471 messages
I guess 3 months since launch is quite a lot for this kind of discussion. We (well, you) have found every clue, evidence or possibility and we have discussed almost everything. Still everyday something new appears. It's awesome.

Modifié par Corik, 16 juin 2012 - 10:54 .


#20409
shepdog77

shepdog77
  • Members
  • 2 634 messages
 Posted Image

#20410
MaximizedAction

MaximizedAction
  • Members
  • 3 293 messages

Corik wrote...

I guess 3 months since launch is quite a lot for this kind of discussion. We (well, you) have found every clue, evidence or possibility and we have discussed almost everything. Still everyday something new appears. It's awesome.


Yep, but I'm still hoping for the next 'ultimate clue' equivalent to the gun swap thing at Destroy. For example, no one has found any special occurance in Synthesis that no other choice has.
- Destroy has the gun swap, including the gunshot sound chaning (thx prettz for the awesome vid!);
- Control has the train sounds;
- Synthesis has ???

Without bragging or trying to sell any personal theories, I think there's something about the view decomposing into RGB, once Shepard is inside of the beam. Dunno really what it means, but no other choice has it. But it's still nothing as obvious as the stuff in the other two endings.

Another thing: the entire content of this video (again, kudos to prettz for being awesome).
- What do the sounds mean? And
- why is the last flashback only Liara or VS?

Those two have already been discussed, but not to any general consensus, yet.

Modifié par MaximizedAction, 16 juin 2012 - 11:47 .


#20411
SirLugash

SirLugash
  • Members
  • 388 messages

MaximizedAction wrote...

Corik wrote...

I guess 3 months since launch is quite a lot for this kind of discussion. We (well, you) have found every clue, evidence or possibility and we have discussed almost everything. Still everyday something new appears. It's awesome.


Yep, but I'm still hoping for the next 'ultimate clue' equivalent to the gun swap thing at Destroy. For example, no one has found any special occurance in Synthesis that no other choice has.
- Destroy has the gun swap, including the gunshot sound chaning (thx prettz for the awesome vid!);
- Control has the train sounds;
- Synthesis has ???

Without bragging or trying to sell any personal theories, I think there's something about the view decomposing into RGB, once Shepard is inside of the beam. Dunno really what it means, but no other choice has it. But it's still nothing as obvious as the stuff in the other two endings.

Another thing: the entire content of this video (again, kudos to prettz for being awesome).
- What do the sounds mean? And
- why is the last flashback only Liara or VS?

Those two have already been discussed, but not to any general consensus, yet.

I probably missed the page, what is that with train horns in the control ending ?
€dit: Nevermind, just saw the video in your post.
Really weird.

Modifié par SirLugash, 16 juin 2012 - 11:54 .


#20412
MaximizedAction

MaximizedAction
  • Members
  • 3 293 messages

SirLugash wrote...

MaximizedAction wrote...

Corik wrote...

I guess 3 months since launch is quite a lot for this kind of discussion. We (well, you) have found every clue, evidence or possibility and we have discussed almost everything. Still everyday something new appears. It's awesome.


Yep, but I'm still hoping for the next 'ultimate clue' equivalent to the gun swap thing at Destroy. For example, no one has found any special occurance in Synthesis that no other choice has.
- Destroy has the gun swap, including the gunshot sound chaning (thx prettz for the awesome vid!);
- Control has the train sounds;
- Synthesis has ???

Without bragging or trying to sell any personal theories, I think there's something about the view decomposing into RGB, once Shepard is inside of the beam. Dunno really what it means, but no other choice has it. But it's still nothing as obvious as the stuff in the other two endings.

Another thing: the entire content of this video (again, kudos to prettz for being awesome).
- What do the sounds mean? And
- why is the last flashback only Liara or VS?

Those two have already been discussed, but not to any general consensus, yet.

I probably missed the page, what is that with train horns in the control ending ?


It's included in prettz video I linked, here's the bit with the train: www.youtube.com/watch.

To me, the best explaination someone here came up with, is that in makes sense in terms of dream interpretation:

from www.dreamsleep.net/train_dream_meaning.html...

Psychological Meaning: Your future is ‘on track’. As trains follow a fixed route, this dream may suggest that you are being helped with your journey through life. If you dream of missing a train or passing your destination, it may indicate that you feel that you have missed an opportunity.

Also, are you a conformist? Jung believed that to dream of taking a public vehicle often means that the dreamer is not finding their own way forward and is behaving like everyone else. (Freud believed that to dream of missing a train meant missing death.


But this one is even cooler:

from www.thecuriousdreamer.com/dreamdictionary/symbol/4/...

- You're afraid of something catastrophic happening that's out of your control
- You're feeling things are out of control somehow in your life right now


I'm usually not really a suscriber to excessive dream interpretation, but they are derived from psychology, so...not so far fetched in my opinion.

Modifié par MaximizedAction, 16 juin 2012 - 12:03 .


#20413
NoSpin

NoSpin
  • Members
  • 369 messages
1. I love the train evidence. Just a great bit of psychology.

2. Every time I leave this thread and post elsewhere, I remember why I shouldn't leave this thread.

#20414
Salient Archer

Salient Archer
  • Members
  • 660 messages
hmm

Modifié par Salient Archer, 16 juin 2012 - 12:31 .


#20415
Salient Archer

Salient Archer
  • Members
  • 660 messages
So here we go again, finally found the time to sit down and revise this sucker, so all that have read it before be prepared to reread it (not really, there’s not too much new stuff in here) but those that haven’t ... Be prepared to read the biggest, most grand, convoluted wall of text ever!!!

What the EMS system could be about
The EMS rating relates directly to Shepard’s resolve and hence willpower. This is most evident in how the citadel presents new options with slightly improved outcomes as the EMS rating starts to increase. The higher the players EMS is the greater Shepard’s hope or desire to survive increases which eventually culminates to him waking up in the rubble shown in the final breath scene, which can only be unlocked with the highest EMS rating. Looking at EMS as proof of Shepard’s galactic clout it could also be instrumental in influencing the Reapers desire to indoctrinate Shepard due it being proof of his military, political and social influence on others, making him the perfect Reaper agent.

Posted Image
The Crucible
The crucible is supposedly a super-weapon orinally thought to be developed by the Protheans which one would imagine requires some very specific parts to function correctly, however the crucible doesn’t seem to mind if you hunt down and implement every advantageous piece or not as long as the player has a high enough EMS from promoting countless numbers of N7 special forces characters, yet the StarChild says specifically that the Crucible is what has changed him but yet his demeanor towards Shepard and the choices he presents you with are dependent on your EMS rating not the parts present in the crucible itself.

The Choices
But how would a construct suddenly present you with less or more options because of your effective military strength? How would it logically be able to determine this? Did the StarChild take a gander outside, do a quick head count, checked to see how the N7 spec op teams are doing and then based on this information decided to turn a few options off just because he felt Shep did a pretty average job of rallying the galaxy together!? Seems the crucibles construction and materials has little to no effect on these choices but rather how well Shepard did at uniting the galaxy.

The two low EMS options
Depending on if you either kept the Collector base or Destroyed it in ME2 the choice your offered when you have a low EMS is different; Either offering you Control if you’ve kept it or Destroy if you decided to give The Illusive Man’s offer the middle finger, indicating that StarChild’s first option is to offer you something that connects with your Shepard’s core beliefs. It should also be noted that with such a low EMS the StarChild treats Shepard with a certain sense of disdain which could insinuate that he doesn’t ever care about Shepard he just wants him gone one way or another and hence why he’s presented with a morally connected choice to pacify him.

Anyway, If Shepard made the choice of retaining the collector (Reaper) technology it could be argued that he’s either made a choice to try and win no matter what the cost or that he’s willing to sacrifice his morality to try and use his enemies technology to destroy them insinuating that the ends justifies the means; Regardless Shepard will be ultimately making the choice to hand ‘control’ of the base over to the illusive man. It should be noted that because the collector base is of Reaper design that it is more than likely going to indoctrinate anyone who is in contact with it as demonstrated with the derelict reaper and object rho in ME2. The only physical difference keeping the collector base makes to the Crucible porject is that instead of having the Reaper heart installed, the Reaper brain is discovered in Cronos station in its place.

It’s interesting to see that what was once considered a renegade action now leads to the “paragon-colored” conclusion to the series, Indicating that Shepard’s perception (or rather the players perception) of what is right and wrong has now been clouded by the Reapers indoctrination which the codex points out to be one of their methods, this could also be why he doesn’t actually see this option for what it really is. This also raises another issue, which is “why would Shepard actually care if it was blue, red, purple, tangerine or pink with plaid stripes?” the simple answer is: Shepard wouldn’t, the blue paragon and red renegade options are a game mechanic that only us the player are a witnesses too, it’s a system for us to judge quickly and easily what those options outcomes are going to be. So if we separate the colors out of the equation, we could look at it from the point of view that Shepard had already once sided with the illusive man (an agent of the reapers) and potentially could see the value in the dangled carrot of power that is the “control ending”, not only this but Shepard also showed he was able to help secure one of the most crucial bits of tech in the universe and that he was willing to sacrifice humanities soul to do so, proving that he was malleable and more willing to see things from the enemies perspective, not only making him easier to indoctrinate but that he had enough clout to keep around as an asset due to his outcome focussed attitude. This might also have been the easiest way for the reapers to get Shepard out of the picture and remove him as a liability in their war against organics.

This could be paralleled with the alternative low EMS option of Destroy being the only option, demonstrating Shepard’s desire to overcome the Reapers but never actually having the strength to do so. Either way the Reapers win their psychological battle with Shepard and in both cases plays to Shepard’s weaknesses to take him out of the picture one way or another depending on his stance. This could possibly just be demonstrating their desire to take the path of least resistance when dealing with Shepard.

When does reality become fantasy?
Now, if we chose to believe that everything from Harbingers beam onward is just happening in Shepard’s head and that he’s actually heading down the slippery slopes of indoctrination, than we can assume that everything that takes places in the citadel onwards; from the arguments with Anderson and TIM to the choices Shepard can make, are just illusionary fictions. Some may argue that the full blown hallucination takes place earlier in the game, possible during the shuttle crash before the hades cannon or even the glossed over APC crash just before the beam run itself. Regardless the idea of Shepard somehow surviving the citadel explosion based on a face value ending is about as believe as, well this:
Posted Image

A different interpretation of EMS
Now for arguments sake lets stop thinking of EMS as Effective Military Strength and start thinking of it as Shepard’s willpower and to help illustrate this point I will break down each level. 

With a Destroyed Collector Base from ME2 (as I’ve already discussed the result of keeping it)

0-1749
So with the lowest EMS Shepard can only choose one option. If you destroyed the collector base in ME2 the default option will be to destroy the reapers. Not only this, but the StarChild treats Shepard with more indifference than usual. So why the one option? and why is it based on the end choice from ME2? Simply put the Reapers feel that Shepard has no worth, influence or value. He couldn’t rally the galaxy to defend earth and hence his death or indoctrination doesn’t carry a consequence for them. Essentially they just don’t give a frak about him either way and although Shepard’s resolve is high, his will power is too low, even Shepard knows he hasn’t done a very good job and knows that defeat is imminent and despite take this option he doesn’t have the strength to survive the journey back from indoctrination.

1750-2049
The Reapers treat Shepard a little more seriously this time. He might not have rallied the Galaxy to the full potential he could have, but he was still more successful than before. The Reapers now offer him an additional choice: Control (become indoctrinated) because as a servant to the Reaper cause; Shepard could now potentially influence the amassed galaxy forces to secure a quick and efficient victory for the Reapers.

Notes:
The the two handles Shepard holds in the control option are labeled BadEnding in the game design map.

Shepard’s eyes not only glow bright blue in the control ending but his iris’ also have identical patterns to those of the illusive man.

Codex clearly states that the Reapers chose to indoctrinate those in key positions of power and influence, Who fits this bill better than Commander Shepard? Considering their past candidates for indoctrinated agents.

Desolas Arterius was a high-ranked Turian general famous for his work during the first contact war. 
Jack Harper (aka TIM) is possibly the most powerful human in the whole galaxy. 
Saren Arterius was one of the finest Spectre of his time and carried incredible clout with both the Turian military and the citadel council. 
Dr. Shu Qian was the project leader on Sidon who were developing Artificial intelligence systems for the Alliance. 
Edan Had’dah was a powerful and incredibly rich Batarian aristocrat and skilled negotiator
Matriarch Benezia was a much revered and respected Asari matriarch and spiritual leader among her people.
Commander Shepard: is the first human spectre, was instrumental in stopping sovereigns attack on the citadel, stopped the collector threat, prevented the Reapers from using the alpha relay and possibly amassed the greatest united fleet in the galaxy through diplomacy and acts of valor, essentially making him the most famous and influential person of his time.

2050-2799
These present increasingly better versions of the above two options, each improvement representing both Shepard’s increase in will power (Destroy option) or the Reaper’s desire for Shepard as an asset (Control option) hence why he starts to envision better outcomes due to the Reaper’s trying to solidify their hold on him or Shepard being closer to breaking free of the indoctrination process.

The notable improvements happen at these stages.
2050 - Earth is only ravaged and the Normandy crew now survives in Destroy ending.
2350 - Earth now survives opposed to being ravaged in the control ending
2650 - Earth now survives opposed to being ravaged in the destroy ending

2800 - 3999
Shepard by this stage has proven how valuable he really is as an asset to the Reapers, not only this but by this stage the Reapers realize how powerful Shepard’s will is becoming and hence they fear he might break free of the indoctrination process, not only this they now will be facing an even large threat in the form of galactic fleet Shepard helped secure and might require a trump card to bring the war squarely back into their favor.

Fearful of loosing their best potential asset, the Reapers pull out their big guns and present another tempting choice: The synthesis of Organics and Synthetics. This choice is not only the moral high-ground but also seems incredibly amazing due to implications it has of galactic peace for both Synthetics and Organics for all eternity and essentially ends the cycle and removes the need of the Reapers. It represents the hope of a permanent end to the  cycle of destruction and the dawn of the next evolutionary step for galactic life. To bad it’s a big fat lie.

Pause and think about what Synthesis and final evolution is to the Reapers; well to be honest it's more Reapers. Think about Sovereign’s conversation with Shepard or any of the taunts Harbinger gives you in ME2, both reapers state that "they are our destiny, they are the final evolution". Also take note that during the suicide mission EDI points out that the human reaper was both made from organic and non-organic materials, which would be the very definition of Synthesis from a Reaper's perspective.

This added choice is also the Reapers attempt to get Shepard to see things their way, just as they did with Jack Harper and Saren. Indoctrination isn't about being told what to do or being controlled, it's more subtle than that, it's design is more like inception in that it makes the individual full heartedly believe that the Reapers are to be revered, and that the individual came to this conclusion themselves, this creates the distinction of the control they have of the husks and the conviction of their indoctrinated mouth pieces such as Saren. Indoctrination is to truly believe that whatever thought they've planted in your head is your own.

What about Synthesis being the last additional choice as far as being a game mechanic?, aren’t ‘we’ as players expected to be rewarded for more work and accomplishments? Well, yes we are!, We’ve been conditioned time and time again for this to be the case! So wouldn’t it stand to reason that if BioWare wanted to indoctrinate “us the player” that they would use a game mechanic and typical reward system as their last best chance to throw us off the right path?

Notes: When picking this option Shepard seems to morph into an almost husk like appearance complete with glowing blue eyes which also share the same iris pattern as the Illusive man.

4000 (or 5000)
The only notable difference with an EMS of 4000+ is that Shepard now survives after the Destroy ending. Hence alluding to the fact that his will power is now strong enough to overcome the indoctrination process.

Also, this threshold is knocked up to 5000 if Anderson doesn’t survive his encounter with TIM, once again proving how EMS is directly related to Shepard’s will to survive. After all, what would distress Shepard’s mental state further? Seeing the execution of his best friend and mentor, plunging a deeper mental wound into his mind forcing him to realize that surviving this war could be a fools goal.

The indoctrination alternative
So if the events on the Crucible are real than Shepard can apparently survive coping a face full of explosion (about 1,000,000,000 that of TNT) from  the complete destruction of the crucible/catalyst/citadel, he also hurtles through the vacuum of space (without a breathing mask?), manages to avoid his circulatory system from stoping after the first 90 seconds of exposure, than also manages to propel himself at around 50,000kph (31068mph) so he only takes 13 hours to reach earths outer atmosphere and resists temperatures of up to 1480 degrees C (2700 F) to than also survive the 200 mile drop to the ground by magically coming to a slow gentle stop in a neat little pile of rubble, and despite all this he takes a deep breath?.

Or, the events all took place in his mind, and because his will is strong enough and has the desire to keep fighting he breaks free of the indoctrination process, takes a deep breath and wakes up in the rubble of London where Harbinger’s beam struck him.

I know which I feel is more likely and sticks much more tightly to the lore of the ME universe.

Here’s a detailed breakdown of why this shouldn’t be possible in a face value explanation:

Supernovas
Produces the same destructive power of 10^162 Gigaton of TNT
The full strength of the blast has a range of 10au depending on the size of the star, but the remnant shockwave and radiation has a travel distance of around 50au with dissipating intensity over distance.

The Sol System Relay
The Sol Relay approximately is 39au from our star.

The Mu Relay
It was estimated that the Mu Relay was much closer to the star that went supernova (possibly as close at 13au based on in-game star charts) but just to be lenient to naysayers lets say it was still 39au from the blast center.

Due to It’s distance from the blast center it was hit with approximately only 10 Gigaton of TNT and as a result was not damaged but was flung out of it’s orbit. Although it could have been as high as 10^6 Gigaton.

The Citadel
As stated in Mass Effect Revelation The Citadel is made from the same materials as the Mass Relays. The presidium and each arm also contains pods that produce mass effect fields the protect the wards by keeping the outer skin separate from the rest of the structures, which protects it from intense external damage. It stands to reason the Citadel (with it’s arms closed) could also sustain external hits of a Gigaton or greater.

In essence; the Citadel would have to incur a massive internalized explosion, where it is most vulnerable. To be lenient lets place the explosion at no greater than 1 Gigaton (although could be as great as 10 Gigaton).

Kinetic Barriers
The shielding afforded by kinetic barriers protects against fast moving projectiles but they do not protect against extremes of temperature, toxins, or radiation.

Could Shepard outrun the blast?
The Presidium Is 7.6 kilometers in diameter, the explosion presented in the destruction cinematic has an estimated radius of 19 kilometers. To out run an explosion of this size the average person would need either a head start of 1 hour 11 minutes and 15 seconds to escape the blast or be capable of running at 900kph for the 1 minute and 19 seconds shown between the tube destruction and the central explosion.

Posted Image

The Human Body
At 537 degrees celsius (1000 Fahrenheit) the human skin catches fire.
At 982 degrees celsius (1800 Fahrenheit) human bones can turn to ash
The blast that would have destroyed the Citadel would have to produce temperatures in excess of 8,000,000 degrees celsius (14,400,032 Fahrenheit) vaporizing anyone inside the blast zone.

If Shepard is shown to be breathing on earth how did he get there?....
Well it wouldn't be by falling there, that's for sure...

If the Citadel was parked about 238,855 miles (384,000km) from Earth (using the moons orbital distance as a frame of reference) it would take Shepard at least 13+ hours to reach earths outer atmosphere if he was able to propel himself at a direct vector and at the safe orbital re-entry speed of 17,500 mph (28,163 kph). This could become problematic without an envirosuit as the human respiratory system can only last up to 90 seconds within a vacuum.

Posted Image

Now assuming he can survive temps of up to 11,726 degrees Celsius (21,138 fahrenheit) during the re-entry stage he would now have scrubbed off most of his speed due to air friction. He still needs to be able to survive the extreme drop to the ground. During this stage he should reach his max terminal velocity speed of 126mph (203kph) once he enters past the thermosphere, making his fall last around around 1.6 hours before the ground breaks his fall. However the air from 9 kilometers and up has an average tempt of around -35 degrees celsius causing Shepard to suffer from both Hypothermia and Hypoxia making him totally incapable of controlling his fall.

But yet we see this....

Posted Image
Posted Image
Posted Image

Also, here' a very in-depth rubble comparison of the ending scene done by Gunslinger_ruiz: http://social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/9727423/2140#11951474

Other things to keep into consideration: 

The illusive man (Jack Harper) was altered by a Reaper Artifact on Shanxi during the first contact war (about 3 decades before ME2) Not only did this encounter change his eyes (that’s right, they’re not implants), it also makes him able to sense Reaper artifacts and also gave him the ability to speak every alien dialect including that of the Reapers themselves. It’s also to be noted that he started Cerberus after this and that it’s possibly an idea that Reapers implanted into him... he’s also indoctrinated.

Shepard’s encounter with Object Rho is considered Canon by ME3 lead writer Mac Walters as stated in his comic ME:Conviction.

Posted Image

Object Rho is considered only one of the many possible points in which Shepard’s indoctrination could begin, although it’s the most obvious considering this artifact affects Shepard much in the same way the Arch Monolith affected Jack Harper (by putting him in a coma).

Posted Image

The illusive man is the only person (other than Reaper-Child) to consider Control as a viable option, and considering he’s indoctrinated would you really consider this to be a wise choice?
Only Saren and maybe Kai Leng consider Synthesis to be the only way forward, but yet again “Indoctrinated”
All you most trusted friends and allies (even EDI and the Geth) would consider Destroy to be the only option... and none of them are indoctrinated.

All through ME2 Harbinger wants to capture Shepard as mentioned in all of his comments to the commander, not only this but it’s shown in ME:Redemption that the Collectors want Shepard’s body. So why doesn’t the illusive man just hand Shep’s body over to them? Simple: He’s indoctrinated, not a husk, the Reapers have planted subtle ideas in his head not assumed control of him, The Illusive man still has some degree of free will and in all honesty he believes that what he is doing is right, unfortunately the Reapers have clouded his judgement.

The meaning of the word Catalyst:

Chemistry: a substance that causes or accelerates a chemical reaction without itself being affected.2. something that causes activity between two or more persons or forces without itself being affected.3. a person or thing that precipitates an event or change.4. a person whose talk, enthusiasm, or energy causes others to be more friendly, enthusiastic, or energetic.

Would BioWare even intend for Shepard to be indoctrinated during the production of ME3?
The short answer is yes. We have proof of this in the documentary app “The final hours of Mass Effect 3”.

Posted Image

“...The gameplay team was still experimenting with an endgame sequence where players would suddenly loose control of Shepard’s movements and fall under full Reaper control...”

So the first thing we can garner from this is that it was intended by BioWare to have Shepard indoctrinated at the end of the game, so the argument that BioWare aren’t clever enough to come up with ITD is false. Anyway, If they did intend to have Shep indoctrinated than there must have been some point in Shepard’s history that lead to his indoctrination, especially if it was full-blown enough so he’d be under complete control. This sentence also alludes to the fact that there are multiple stages of indoctrination by utilizing the adjective “full”.

“...(This sequence was ultimately dropped because the gameplay mechanic proved too troublesome to implement alongside dialogue choices.)...”

Anyone who just glances over this sentence might be lead to believe that it says “The Indoctrination of Shepard was dropped because it was too troublesome to implement” but it doesn’t say anything of the kind. All that sentence says is that the mechanic of having the game suddenly take control away from the player was dropped but not the indoctrination concept. It also says that it was hard to implement along with the dialogue choices, but it never says that the related dialogue choices were ever removed and hence we are still presented them in the game during the end sequence. The sentence never once mentions that Shepard being indoctrinated was dropped, just that one physical gameplay component related to it was.

#20416
MaximizedAction

MaximizedAction
  • Members
  • 3 293 messages
Call me impressed. Great sum up, Archer! Should be made into a google doc. If anyone wholeheartedly anti-IT calls this TL;DR, they will never get it:

IT(and thus BioWare's possible plan) is just that more substantial than 'Derp, Bioware is lazy !!1'.

Modifié par MaximizedAction, 16 juin 2012 - 01:01 .


#20417
TSA_383

TSA_383
  • Members
  • 2 013 messages

MaximizedAction wrote...

Corik wrote...

I guess 3 months since launch is quite a lot for this kind of discussion. We (well, you) have found every clue, evidence or possibility and we have discussed almost everything. Still everyday something new appears. It's awesome.


Yep, but I'm still hoping for the next 'ultimate clue' equivalent to the gun swap thing at Destroy. For example, no one has found any special occurance in Synthesis that no other choice has.
- Destroy has the gun swap, including the gunshot sound chaning (thx prettz for the awesome vid!);
- Control has the train sounds;
- Synthesis has ???

Without bragging or trying to sell any personal theories, I think there's something about the view decomposing into RGB, once Shepard is inside of the beam. Dunno really what it means, but no other choice has it. But it's still nothing as obvious as the stuff in the other two endings.

Another thing: the entire content of this video (again, kudos to prettz for being awesome).
- What do the sounds mean? And
- why is the last flashback only Liara or VS?

Those two have already been discussed, but not to any general consensus, yet.


On the synthesis sounds, take a look at the sound file "biod_end002_530green.Wwise_End002_Streaming.cineanim_end02_green_good".
It's the "good" synthesis ending, and frankly it's creepy as all holy ****.

Also Salient - that's a master of a post, gold star to you sir :lol:


So have I missed anything since page 799 or has it all been off-topic? ;)

Modifié par TSA_383, 16 juin 2012 - 01:02 .


#20418
lex0r11

lex0r11
  • Members
  • 2 190 messages
Posted Image

#20419
TSA_383

TSA_383
  • Members
  • 2 013 messages
[quote]Salient Archer wrote...

I've been playing through the genophage story arc again and just finished my conversation with Eve about how she became a Korgan Shaman and I remembered that when I first played through that scene I really thought that both the crystal she hands you and her quote "Take it as a reminder, commander. In the darkest hour, there is always a way out." were going to relate directly to the end game somehow (as cheesy as that sounds).[/quote]

Between this, Liara's "gift", the consort from ME1, Shiala's cipher, your contact with the prothean beam etc etc etc, I think this will have something to do with your ability to overcome indoctrination...

[quote]MaximizedAction wrote...

[quote]HellishFiend wrote...

[quote]TSA_383 wrote...

Guys,
quick thought on foreshadowing that I had whilst looking through the
sound files from the beginning - the cinematography from the whole "walk
to trial" scene seems weird, but it seems to be absolutely loaded with
foreshadowing of the ending.

Which got me thinking, could it give us hints on what will be in the EC?

What
happens in this one? The beam hits, shepard gets knocked out or almost
and you hear the reaper noises from the dreams (the ones complete with
proper infrasound), then Anderson snaps you out of it, just like he does
when you're talking to the child later...

You hear the sound of
groaning metal as he does so, very similar to the sound in the "breath"
scene at the end, then Anderson gets you on your feet and hands you a
Predator pistol.

I think it's worth a look generally, there's other stuff but it's getting late here and I'm off.[/quote]

Nice
connections! It seems Anderson may be emphasized as a symbol of
Shepard's resistance to Indoctrination even more than we thought. 

[/quote]

Well,
I just can't get rid of my head-theory, that all of ME3's SP we all
replayed multiple times until now is just Shepard either remembering or
retelling it to someone (nothing to do with Stargazer). Maybe that's the
story he's telling to the judge during the trial.
Because, who says
(if existent) the ending DLC that plugs right on our saves won't start
the way ME3 started: throw you right into the story like a short story:
Whoop, there are we as Shepard, telling (or dreaming) about what we just
did to make us end up wehere we ended up. Or a trial because we as an
indoctrinated Shepard did something we shouldn't have done, which is
what DJBare suggested a few days ago: that we were on the Normandy all
along but only thought we were in London.
[/quote]
I don't buy that you didn't make it to London.

I think what you see as the weirdness in london is just the slow effect of reaper indoctrination. If everything suddenly became weird you would reject it. But no, the further into the london level you get, the stranger everything becomes - the last third of the mission is almost beyond surreal, so you get to the beam sequence and it's less of a jarring contrast.

I reckon it's all happening at least up until the scene with the missiles at the end, but your perception of reality is drifting further and further from the truth.
Chances are all of your squadmates are similarly effected, given the notes about people in london wandering towards the beam...

After all, indoctrination isn't something that happens instantly, but as you're in london for longer you're increasingly exposed to the beam and its effects...

[quote]Big Bad wrote...

[quote]Auralius Carolus wrote...

[quote]Big Bad wrote...

I'm 29.  Anybody who is younger than that should absolutely not feel old! 
[/quote]

I
turned 25 on the 12th and I feel ancient. Still being in college and
living with my parents, I also feel rather unimportant. However, the
latter seems to be a massively growing trend given the economy.

Anyway...

[/quote]

Yeah,
you shouldn't feel bad about that.  I just (finally) got my bachelor's
degree in biology last year, and I'll be starting a master's program in
the fall.  I will mostly likely be the oldest person in my group, but
I've sort of gotten used to that.  Everybody takes a different track,
yours doesn't make you unimportant.  I for one know that mine has been
pretty winding and bizarre.  [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/smile.png[/smilie]

[/quote]
I just missed out on direct Masters entry by ~2% on my course :(
Now doing BEng Aeronautical engineering this year, and an MSc in 2013 in something exotic.
Am 20, by the by :lol: I feel almost young in this thread...

[quote]paxxton wrote...

Have you ever noticed that Liara doesn't have ears?[/quote]
This is going to irritate me now :blink:

[quote]HellishFiend wrote...

BTW Turbo, I'm running through
Cronos and recording footage, and I definitely see that circuitboard
pattern you were talking about on the protoreaper. I cant believe I
didnt notice it the other day....

Wonder if its the same pattern we see in the Synthesis ending on Joker's skin?[/quote]
It is, exactly the same.

[quote]Turbo_J wrote...

[quote]HellishFiend wrote...

Anyone
else ever hear the laughter on board the Normandy? I never noticed it
before it was pointed out, but I can definitely hear it now. [/quote]

Yes.
In the lounge. Possibly one time in my cabin; I was like WTF? And I
believe on deck 3 in Thane's old room or just outside the door. Not sure
if it means anything. I only caught this when wearing headphones and
verified it the last few days when looking of oddities around the
Ship... That's when I found the citadel ward cube map in the lounge.

I really just thought of it as ambiant noise. I tried hard to hear whispers, but nadda.

[/quote]
At the moment I'm staying in a house from 1660, which has an incredible reputation for hauntings.
I was playing ME3 on speakers at 2am - heard the laugh and just sat there like this :blink: for several minutes trying to work out whether it was from the game or not...

#20420
Salient Archer

Salient Archer
  • Members
  • 660 messages
Thanks guys, to be honest my work isn't anything new, I just finally managed to sit down and compose into one complete piece. I will however make a google docs version of it as to make it better formated for easy reading, but once again, thank you so much for the encouragement.

#20421
SirLugash

SirLugash
  • Members
  • 388 messages

MaximizedAction wrote...

It's included in prettz video I linked, here's the bit with the train: www.youtube.com/watch.

To me, the best explaination someone here came up with, is that in makes sense in terms of dream interpretation:

from www.dreamsleep.net/train_dream_meaning.html...

Psychological Meaning: Your future is ‘on track’. As trains follow a fixed route, this dream may suggest that you are being helped with your journey through life. If you dream of missing a train or passing your destination, it may indicate that you feel that you have missed an opportunity.

Also, are you a conformist? Jung believed that to dream of taking a public vehicle often means that the dreamer is not finding their own way forward and is behaving like everyone else. (Freud believed that to dream of missing a train meant missing death.


But this one is even cooler:

from www.thecuriousdreamer.com/dreamdictionary/symbol/4/...

- You're afraid of something catastrophic happening that's out of your control
- You're feeling things are out of control somehow in your life right now


I'm usually not really a suscriber to excessive dream interpretation, but they are derived from psychology, so...not so far fetched in my opinion.


Yep I watched it, interesting indeed.
The dream interpretation thing fits really well.
The first thing I thought about when hearing those train horn sound was a video where it was said that Bioware uses distorted (train) horn sounds for Reapers...

#20422
Salient Archer

Salient Archer
  • Members
  • 660 messages

TSA_383 wrote...

Salient Archer wrote...

I've been playing through the genophage story arc again and just finished my conversation with Eve about how she became a Korgan Shaman and I remembered that when I first played through that scene I really thought that both the crystal she hands you and her quote "Take it as a reminder, commander. In the darkest hour, there is always a way out." were going to relate directly to the end game somehow (as cheesy as that sounds).


Between this, Liara's "gift", the consort from ME1, Shiala's cipher, your contact with the prothean beam etc etc etc, I think this will have something to do with your ability to overcome indoctrination...

Agreed, the more I think about it the more I refuse to believe that all that foreshadowing would just be ignored, why establish any of it in the first place only to not have them play out.

#20423
Salient Archer

Salient Archer
  • Members
  • 660 messages
I know this is off topic but here's an image I discovered while doing my 4,000+ word essay that I found pretty damn hilarious. Posted Image

#20424
Arian Dynas

Arian Dynas
  • Members
  • 3 799 messages

Salient Archer wrote...

TSA_383 wrote...

Salient Archer wrote...

I've been playing through the genophage story arc again and just finished my conversation with Eve about how she became a Korgan Shaman and I remembered that when I first played through that scene I really thought that both the crystal she hands you and her quote "Take it as a reminder, commander. In the darkest hour, there is always a way out." were going to relate directly to the end game somehow (as cheesy as that sounds).


Between this, Liara's "gift", the consort from ME1, Shiala's cipher, your contact with the prothean beam etc etc etc, I think this will have something to do with your ability to overcome indoctrination...

Agreed, the more I think about it the more I refuse to believe that all that foreshadowing would just be ignored, why establish any of it in the first place only to not have them play out.


Couldn't sleep, came back on to pester all of you.

Very well done Salient, you should A). proofread it, B). Make a thread for it and see what you get, and C). Send this to Parabolee.

#20425
MaximizedAction

MaximizedAction
  • Members
  • 3 293 messages

TSA_383 wrote...

On the synthesis sounds, take a look at the sound file "biod_end002_530green.Wwise_End002_Streaming.cineanim_end02_green_good".
It's the "good" synthesis ending, and frankly it's creepy as all holy ****.


I will, but in the meantime, could you please take a look at
Wwise_Main_Menu_Streaming/Wwise_Main_Menu_Streaming.4.ogg
and
Wwise_End001_Streaming/Wwise_End001_Streaming.90 around 1:50?

The first one I think is supposed to be the Normandy's FTL engine sound, but those intermezzos every now and then sound creepy as hell.

But more interestingly, the second one. It's the London background noise I guess, but at the time mark I wrote, there's some weird sound.
It seems to play twice in the soundfile, but that second one just doesn't sound like just a warning sirene, but remind me more of the dream white noise, and the 'Shepard tone' when you stand up after Harby's shot. In the frequency spectrum this part is also shows more of a white noise characteristic.