55528 réponses à ce sujet

[Eryri]

Dwailing wrote...

Eryri wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

1) It is never explicitly stated that the Catalyst created the Reapers, he says, "they are my solution", but not that he created them. It seems the Catalyst is just an AI of sorts.

2) But he never says he will die, just listen very carefully to what he says

3) We don't know of any organics actually being there before in that exact location.

4) As the Catalyst himself says, people like TIM and Saren cannot control the Reapers themselves because they themselves were indoctrinated; however Shepard isn't, and therefore can take control.. If one listens to the dialogue it is clear the parameters have changed considerably.

My thoughts on this:

4) - But we don't know that Shepard isn't indoctrinated. The whole point of indoctrination is that you don't know that you are. Saren and TIM both thought they were taking advantage of the Reapers rather than the other way around. It's presented as a gradual, subtle process. Shepard can't be absolutely sure that he's 100% free of any taint of it. And if the Reapers have even the smallest hold on him, what does that mean for the long term prospects of Control?

This point is driven home if you played Arrival.  Shepard was in the same base as Object Rho for two days.  There's no way you're going to tell me that he came through THAT ONE Reaper influence free.  I don't know how much influence, but there had to be SOME influence.

Absolutely. Even without Arrival, which some people haven't played, Shep's been around tons of Reaper tech.

I know some people make the point that Arrival is "inadmissable" because not every Shepard will have gone through it, but the fact is that many did.
Even if their non-Arrival Shepards should be OK, those who did go through it should be well and truly messed up by now.

Modifié par Eryri, 17 juin 2012 - 10:53 .

[Rifneno]

The biggest mystery to me isn't about the game itself, it's about why anyone is still even reading Sub's posts, let alone replying to them.

[HellishFiend]

Eryri wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

DrTsoni wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

Looking for a little creative help with my video, guys:

When thinking about the Indoctrination Theory, what are the most significant things that pop into your head? What stands out the most? As in events, cutscenes, dialog, etc. Something you see in the game that just speaks "Indoctrination!" to you personally.

I'm terribly late for this, but the first thing that comes to mind (aside from the weirdness of everything that happens once you're hit by Harbinger, as this will always be my main reason for even considering IT) is the dreams. The "oily shadows," the whispers, the kid burning - along with Shepard when she finally reaches him in the last one...It all just screams Indoctrination to me. Even more so now, actually, since I saw that video of the creepy sound effects.

Not late at all.  Still working on the infrasound video, and anything that doesnt make it into this one can go into one of my future videos. Thanks!

I'm sure you've considered this already, but I've just been replaying the opening scene, and the warning sign by the vent where the child hides really sticks out.

I don't remember ever seeing a sign like it in ME, and it's very odd the way the lightning bolt strikes the very top of that stylised face, almost like it's warning of a danger to the mind. In real life, electricity warning signs usually show a bolt striking a whole body, at least here in the UK.

Of course if that is a 4th wall breaking clue from Bioware, it would require that the child was fake even back in Vancouver, which isn't everybody's interpretation.

Thanks!

[SubAstris]

Eryri wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

1) It is never explicitly stated that the Catalyst created the Reapers, he says, "they are my solution", but not that he created them. It seems the Catalyst is just an AI of sorts.

2) But he never says he will die, just listen very carefully to what he says

3) We don't know of any organics actually being there before in that exact location.

4) As the Catalyst himself says, people like TIM and Saren cannot control the Reapers themselves because they themselves were indoctrinated; however Shepard isn't, and therefore can take control.. If one listens to the dialogue it is clear the parameters have changed considerably.

My thoughts on this:
1) - it may not be explicitly stated, but it is very heavily implied that he is their creator. "They are my solution" - implies that he was setting out to solve a problem, and came up with the Reapers. Also if you have low EMS, his words are "The Reapers are mine!" said in quite an arrogant way.

2) - again it's not explicit that Shepard will die, but the Catalyst goes out of his way to plant the idea that it's a very likely possibility. He has the politician's knack for lying without lying if you get my drift.

3) - True. Have to conceed that.

4) - But we don't know that Shepard isn't indoctrinated. The whole point of indoctrination is that you don't know that you are. Saren and TIM both thought they were taking advantage of the Reapers rather than the other way around. It's presented as a gradual, subtle process. Shepard can't be absolutely sure that he's 100% free of any taint of it. And if the Reapers have even the smallest hold on him, what does that mean for the long term prospects of Control?

1) I haven't heard "the Reapers are mine" bit but still interesting. I still maintain he is an AI, working for something else.

2) I have always thought that the line doesn't mean he will die, but rather his life will be worse without synthetics, I think that makes more sense and ties better with the fact he lives in destroy.

3) Cool

4) As far as we are he isn't, although we don't know we aren't. But the whole of IT is predicated on the point that at that moment he isn't indoctrinated anyway

[Rifneno]

HellishFiend wrote...

Eryri wrote...

I'm sure you've considered this already, but I've just been replaying the opening scene, and the warning sign by the vent where the child hides really sticks out.

I don't remember ever seeing a sign like it in ME, and it's very odd the way the lightning bolt strikes the very top of that stylised face, almost like it's warning of a danger to the mind. In real life, electricity warning signs usually show a bolt striking a whole body, at least here in the UK.

Of course if that is a 4th wall breaking clue from Bioware, it would require that the child was fake even back in Vancouver, which isn't everybody's interpretation.

Thanks!

I did an entire playthrough once for the sole purpose of combing through the game looking for just one other instance of that sign being used.  I couldn't find one.  Most of the other warning stickers were used dozens of times over.  That one is unique and it makes no sense for it to be where it is if taken literally.

[SubAstris]

Rifneno wrote...

The biggest mystery to me isn't about the game itself, it's about why anyone is still even reading Sub's posts, let alone replying to them.

And yet another constructive comment!

[demersel]

SubAstris wrote...


I'm not getting into a discussion about Arrival...

And why not exactly?  I didn't happened? So Liara isn't a shadow broker? And you don't really know who is kasumi.... And the rig that send the signal to control all geth that was made in project overlord, was not instulled by reapers into geth dreadnought, right? 

[HellishFiend]

Rifneno wrote...

In retrospect, I can see the problem with Grunt. He's just not an experienced leader. Same with Samara. She's got centuries of experience but justicars almost always work alone. She's not used to having to account for allies.  

Shhhh... byne will hear you... he needs to keep believing it wasnt his fault.... 

[Dwailing]

Eryri wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

Eryri wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

1) It is never explicitly stated that the Catalyst created the Reapers, he says, "they are my solution", but not that he created them. It seems the Catalyst is just an AI of sorts.

2) But he never says he will die, just listen very carefully to what he says

3) We don't know of any organics actually being there before in that exact location.

4) As the Catalyst himself says, people like TIM and Saren cannot control the Reapers themselves because they themselves were indoctrinated; however Shepard isn't, and therefore can take control.. If one listens to the dialogue it is clear the parameters have changed considerably.

My thoughts on this:

4) - But we don't know that Shepard isn't indoctrinated. The whole point of indoctrination is that you don't know that you are. Saren and TIM both thought they were taking advantage of the Reapers rather than the other way around. It's presented as a gradual, subtle process. Shepard can't be absolutely sure that he's 100% free of any taint of it. And if the Reapers have even the smallest hold on him, what does that mean for the long term prospects of Control?

This point is driven home if you played Arrival.  Shepard was in the same base as Object Rho for two days.  There's no way you're going to tell me that he came through THAT ONE Reaper influence free.  I don't know how much influence, but there had to be SOME influence.

Absolutely. Even without Arrival, which some people haven't played, Shep's been around tons of Reaper tech.

I know some people make the point that Arrival is "inadmissable" because not every Shepard will have gone through it, but the fact is that many did.
Even if their non-Arrival Shepards should be OK, those who did go through it should be well and truly messed up by now.

Many did.  And I'm fairly certain Mac Walters originally was going to make Shepard destroying the relay canon.  Heck, I think it IS canon, it's just that since there ARE people who didn't play it, he's going to have to adapt the story for those who didn't.

[SubAstris]

Dwailing wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

Eryri wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

1) It is never explicitly stated that the Catalyst created the Reapers, he says, "they are my solution", but not that he created them. It seems the Catalyst is just an AI of sorts.

2) But he never says he will die, just listen very carefully to what he says

3) We don't know of any organics actually being there before in that exact location.

4) As the Catalyst himself says, people like TIM and Saren cannot control the Reapers themselves because they themselves were indoctrinated; however Shepard isn't, and therefore can take control.. If one listens to the dialogue it is clear the parameters have changed considerably.

My thoughts on this:

4) - But we don't know that Shepard isn't indoctrinated. The whole point of indoctrination is that you don't know that you are. Saren and TIM both thought they were taking advantage of the Reapers rather than the other way around. It's presented as a gradual, subtle process. Shepard can't be absolutely sure that he's 100% free of any taint of it. And if the Reapers have even the smallest hold on him, what does that mean for the long term prospects of Control?

This point is driven home if you played Arrival.  Shepard was in the same base as Object Rho for two days.  There's no way you're going to tell me that he came through THAT ONE Reaper influence free.  I don't know how much influence, but there had to be SOME influence.

I'm not getting into a discussion about Arrival...

I'm not getting into this discussion either.  I've debated enough Literalists on this point that I know it's fruitless.  However, would you please answer my earlier question?  Did you ever play a BW game before ME3?

Of course, played all ME games and DLC, including other BW games such as KOTOR

[HellishFiend]

This is a real "can of worms" day, isnt it?

[Dwailing]

Never mind.

Modifié par Dwailing, 17 juin 2012 - 10:57 .

[Dwailing]

SubAstris wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

Eryri wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

1) It is never explicitly stated that the Catalyst created the Reapers, he says, "they are my solution", but not that he created them. It seems the Catalyst is just an AI of sorts.

2) But he never says he will die, just listen very carefully to what he says

3) We don't know of any organics actually being there before in that exact location.

4) As the Catalyst himself says, people like TIM and Saren cannot control the Reapers themselves because they themselves were indoctrinated; however Shepard isn't, and therefore can take control.. If one listens to the dialogue it is clear the parameters have changed considerably.

My thoughts on this:

4) - But we don't know that Shepard isn't indoctrinated. The whole point of indoctrination is that you don't know that you are. Saren and TIM both thought they were taking advantage of the Reapers rather than the other way around. It's presented as a gradual, subtle process. Shepard can't be absolutely sure that he's 100% free of any taint of it. And if the Reapers have even the smallest hold on him, what does that mean for the long term prospects of Control?

This point is driven home if you played Arrival.  Shepard was in the same base as Object Rho for two days.  There's no way you're going to tell me that he came through THAT ONE Reaper influence free.  I don't know how much influence, but there had to be SOME influence.

I'm not getting into a discussion about Arrival...

I'm not getting into this discussion either.  I've debated enough Literalists on this point that I know it's fruitless.  However, would you please answer my earlier question?  Did you ever play a BW game before ME3?

Of course, played all ME games and DLC, including other BW games such as KOTOR

Then how can you think that Bioware would have bad writers?  I mean seriously, how?  I know that you could argue that it wasn't BW in general that wrote the ending, but just Mac Walters, but why would they hire him if he was a bad writer?

Modifié par Dwailing, 17 juin 2012 - 11:00 .

[SubAstris]

demersel wrote...

SubAstris wrote...


I'm not getting into a discussion about Arrival...

And why not exactly?  I didn't happened? So Liara isn't a shadow broker? And you don't really know who is kasumi.... And the rig that send the signal to control all geth that was made in project overlord, was not instulled by reapers into geth dreadnought, right? 

Mainly because I have been in lengthy discussions about it and don't really want to start to churn up the same evidence again. The events of the relay being destroyed clearly happened, whether Shepard did them or not depends on whether you did the DLC. With LOTSB, Liara becomes Shadow Broker with your help. if you didn't play that DLC, you are not involved

[Eryri]

SubAstris wrote...

Eryri wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

1) It is never explicitly stated that the Catalyst created the Reapers, he says, "they are my solution", but not that he created them. It seems the Catalyst is just an AI of sorts.

2) But he never says he will die, just listen very carefully to what he says

3) We don't know of any organics actually being there before in that exact location.

4) As the Catalyst himself says, people like TIM and Saren cannot control the Reapers themselves because they themselves were indoctrinated; however Shepard isn't, and therefore can take control.. If one listens to the dialogue it is clear the parameters have changed considerably.

My thoughts on this:
1) - it may not be explicitly stated, but it is very heavily implied that he is their creator. "They are my solution" - implies that he was setting out to solve a problem, and came up with the Reapers. Also if you have low EMS, his words are "The Reapers are mine!" said in quite an arrogant way.

2) - again it's not explicit that Shepard will die, but the Catalyst goes out of his way to plant the idea that it's a very likely possibility. He has the politician's knack for lying without lying if you get my drift.

3) - True. Have to conceed that.

4) - But we don't know that Shepard isn't indoctrinated. The whole point of indoctrination is that you don't know that you are. Saren and TIM both thought they were taking advantage of the Reapers rather than the other way around. It's presented as a gradual, subtle process. Shepard can't be absolutely sure that he's 100% free of any taint of it. And if the Reapers have even the smallest hold on him, what does that mean for the long term prospects of Control?

1) I haven't heard "the Reapers are mine" bit but still interesting. I still maintain he is an AI, working for something else.

2) I have always thought that the line doesn't mean he will die, but rather his life will be worse without synthetics, I think that makes more sense and ties better with the fact he lives in destroy.

3) Cool

4) As far as we are he isn't, although we don't know we aren't. But the whole of IT is predicated on the point that at that moment he isn't indoctrinated anyway

2) I can't quite remember the sequence but I think the Catalyst's lines were "You can destroy all synthetic life if you want. Including the Geth. Even you are partly synthetic." In context, juxtaposed with the bit about destroying the Geth, I think that's meant to imply that Shepard will also be destroyed. However I can't remember exactly so I may be wrong here.

4) I don't think every interpretation is predicated on Shep being totally free of indoctrination up until that point. I think it's presented more as a continuum, - ranging from terrified fear of the Reapers but still hating them, - through to imagining you can work with them (Saren / TIM), - through to worship (the scientist in Arrival, sorry I forget her name), - finally to mindless compliance.

[SubAstris]

Dwailing wrote...

Then how can you think that Bioware would have bad writers?  I mean seriously, how?  I know that you could argue that it wasn't BW in general that wrote the ending, but just Mac Walters, but why would they hire him if he was a bad writer?

I think you only need to look at the plot of ME2 aswell certain aspects of ME3 to see aspects of "bad" writing. For all intents and purposes, Walters is a decent writer, but with the way EA have positioned the game, the importance of plot (and writing a good, coherent one) have been reduced.

[Rifneno]

Dwailing wrote...

Then how can you think that Bioware would have bad writers?  I mean seriously, how?  I know that you could argue that it wasn't BW in general that wrote the ending, but just Mac Walters, but why would they hire him if he was a bad writer?

Dragon Age 2.

[Andromidius]

SubAstris wrote...

Andromidius wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

1) It is never explicitly stated that the Catalyst created the Reapers, he says, "they are my solution", but not that he created them. It seems the Catalyst is just an AI of sorts.

2) But he never says he will die, just listen very carefully to what he says

3) We don't know of any organics actually being there before in that exact location.

4) As the Catalyst himself says, people like TIM and Saren cannot control the Reapers themselves because they themselves were indoctrinated; however Shepard isn't, and therefore can take control.. If one listens to the dialogue it is clear the parameters have changed considerably.

Its still deception, pure and simple.  You can make all the excuses you like, but its still demonstrably wrong about almost everything it says and uses very weak circular logic.

But if you disagree, fair enough.

You say he is demonstrably wrong and yet when I provide some rebuttals to your assertions that he is on those matters, you don't reply to them. I wouldn't advise using such blanket statements.

Considering I already made my statements demonstrating why he was wrong and you brushed them aside, its clear you don't actually care about the facts of the matter.

He is wrong.  Deal with it.  End of dialogue.

[Dwailing]

SubAstris wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

Then how can you think that Bioware would have bad writers?  I mean seriously, how?  I know that you could argue that it wasn't BW in general that wrote the ending, but just Mac Walters, but why would they hire him if he was a bad writer?

I think you only need to look at the plot of ME2 aswell certain aspects of ME3 to see aspects of "bad" writing. For all intents and purposes, Walters is a decent writer, but with the way EA have positioned the game, the importance of plot (and writing a good, coherent one) have been reduced.

Oh God, an EA hater.  Also, ME2 had a great story, so... yeah.  I'd love to fill that gap in with some carefully chosen words, but I won't.

Modifié par Dwailing, 17 juin 2012 - 11:06 .

[Dwailing]

Rifneno wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

Then how can you think that Bioware would have bad writers?  I mean seriously, how?  I know that you could argue that it wasn't BW in general that wrote the ending, but just Mac Walters, but why would they hire him if he was a bad writer?

Dragon Age 2.

Don't spoil anything, I just got it, and I'm going to be playing through it pretty soon.  Also, I should point out that it was a different team.

[Andromidius]

HellishFiend wrote...

Oh come on... you know you bought it the first time.... <_<

First time I was confused about what the hell was going on.  But I continued my mission in fighting against the Reapers.  Starbinger changed nothing.

Only reason I shot the tube was because I had no other option.

[Dwailing]

Andromidius wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

Oh come on... you know you bought it the first time.... <_<

First time I was confused about what the hell was going on.  But I continued my mission in fighting against the Reapers.  Starbinger changed nothing.

Only reason I shot the tube was because I had no other option.

Ah, someone with a low EMS.  If nothing else, at least that made the choice easy. 

[Rifneno]

Dwailing wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

Then how can you think that Bioware would have bad writers?  I mean seriously, how?  I know that you could argue that it wasn't BW in general that wrote the ending, but just Mac Walters, but why would they hire him if he was a bad writer?

Dragon Age 2.

Don't spoil anything, I just got it, and I'm going to be playing through it pretty soon.  Also, I should point out that it was a different team.

Spoil?  Oh dear.  You seem to care about the story.  Stock up on tissues.  Hope you aren't too attached to whatever decisions to made in DAO.

[SubAstris]

Eryri wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

Eryri wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

1) It is never explicitly stated that the Catalyst created the Reapers, he says, "they are my solution", but not that he created them. It seems the Catalyst is just an AI of sorts.

2) But he never says he will die, just listen very carefully to what he says

3) We don't know of any organics actually being there before in that exact location.

4) As the Catalyst himself says, people like TIM and Saren cannot control the Reapers themselves because they themselves were indoctrinated; however Shepard isn't, and therefore can take control.. If one listens to the dialogue it is clear the parameters have changed considerably.

My thoughts on this:
1) - it may not be explicitly stated, but it is very heavily implied that he is their creator. "They are my solution" - implies that he was setting out to solve a problem, and came up with the Reapers. Also if you have low EMS, his words are "The Reapers are mine!" said in quite an arrogant way.

2) - again it's not explicit that Shepard will die, but the Catalyst goes out of his way to plant the idea that it's a very likely possibility. He has the politician's knack for lying without lying if you get my drift.

3) - True. Have to conceed that.

4) - But we don't know that Shepard isn't indoctrinated. The whole point of indoctrination is that you don't know that you are. Saren and TIM both thought they were taking advantage of the Reapers rather than the other way around. It's presented as a gradual, subtle process. Shepard can't be absolutely sure that he's 100% free of any taint of it. And if the Reapers have even the smallest hold on him, what does that mean for the long term prospects of Control?

1) I haven't heard "the Reapers are mine" bit but still interesting. I still maintain he is an AI, working for something else.

2) I have always thought that the line doesn't mean he will die, but rather his life will be worse without synthetics, I think that makes more sense and ties better with the fact he lives in destroy.

3) Cool

4) As far as we are he isn't, although we don't know we aren't. But the whole of IT is predicated on the point that at that moment he isn't indoctrinated anyway

2) I can't quite remember the sequence but I think the Catalyst's lines were "You can destroy all synthetic life if you want. Including the Geth. Even you are partly synthetic." In context, juxtaposed with the bit about destroying the Geth, I think that's meant to imply that Shepard will also be destroyed. However I can't remember exactly so I may be wrong here.

4) I don't think every interpretation is predicated on Shep being totally free of indoctrination up until that point. I think it's presented more as a continuum, - ranging from terrified fear of the Reapers but still hating them, - through to imagining you can work with them (Saren / TIM), - through to worship (the scientist in Arrival, sorry I forget her name), - finally to mindless compliance.

2) Those are the lines. I still maintain my original position, but even so if you are correct, we have no way of knowing Shepard's actual state at the end in the breath scene, so we don't know how well he is doing.

4) When you say indoctrinated, I took that to mean "fully indoctrinated", it wasn't clear

[Andromidius]

Dwailing wrote...

Andromidius wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

Oh come on... you know you bought it the first time.... <_<

First time I was confused about what the hell was going on.  But I continued my mission in fighting against the Reapers.  Starbinger changed nothing.

Only reason I shot the tube was because I had no other option.

Ah, someone with a low EMS.  If nothing else, at least that made the choice easy. 

Nah.  I had all three open, its just the other two were big no-noes that screamed 'bad'.

What I mean is Destroy was the only way forward.  I couldn't shoot the kid and there was no other path to choose.