55528 réponses à ce sujet

[EpyonX3]

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

Ahh, then no that's not what I mean.

I'm not saying that the person that's indoctrinated would come forward, I mean the crew that isn't would bring it to your attention. For example, Vega notices Ashley's spooked face, asks her if she's ok and she goes on to explain how she's ok just stressed. A subtle hint like that would get me on Ashley's case right away as that might be a symptom of Indoctrination.

Or finding a random crew member leaking information to an unkown source which could have been cerberus or other indoctrinated forces. Having Javik on the crew makes it even stranger that no one picks up on Shepard's or anyone else's indoctrination process.

You see where I'm going with this?

Javik dident pick up on the Indoctrination of his entire crew for all we know and Ashley herself says the line "How do you fight something which worms its way into your head?" It is pretty clear that Indoctrination is a foe no one really knows how to fight.

And as I allready said there is no shadow of doubt Shepard has the most exposure to Reaper tech in the crew. Those two days near Object Rho alone is more than most people we know of.

Most Indoctrination symptoms can be attributed to other causes. Bad dreams, headaches, hearing sounds? Who the hell would think Indoctrination as the first thing when hearing that, especially in the middle of a war, and even more so it is symptoms mostly centered on the person. If he/she dosent say a word of it no one is gonna know.

Every person we see or are told was Indoctrinated acts completely like the person he was before Indoctrination right up until the moment they reveal their true face. Doctor Amanda kenson was fully Indoctrinated when you get her out of the Batarian prison, but never shows any signs or even hints of thise before she reveals it full fledged standing before Object Rho.

That is what Indoctrination is, subtle and almost completely undetectable until the person him or herslef reveals their twisted alliance to the Reapers.

Like I said in a previous post above, I'm saying that Javik would detect indoctrination itself, but the changes in behavior of the crew, including Shepard. We can at least agree that Javik is good at reading people.

I'd believe the Object Rho thing if Shepard woke up next to the thing but he didn't. In fact, we don't see it again after he's knocked out. Also he was out for two days. Why didn't the indoctrination work while his brain was most vulnerable, but most effective when his brain is least vulnerable?

The limbic system, which is what the reapers attack, is actually more alert and active when under emotional and physical stress. An attack on this system during an event like that (After getting hit by Harbinger's beam) would go ignored as the brian prioritizes its signals to respond to the trauma. But a person who is out cold for hours and is not under physical stress (Shepard was sedated) would actually become indoctrinated much easier.

[HellishFiend]

FFZero wrote...

Finally finished looking through the ardat yakshi mission files and it would probably be easier to list which files DON’T have infra sound. It’s all over the place and I’ve got a headache to prove it...

Also found something else that’s interesting, in one of the background music files I’m pretty sure I can hear the music that plays at the end when we see star brat, just at a slightly lower volume.

I also found something interesting when I was recording footage that is very similar to that. I did one of my recordings with no music or sound effects so I could capture a clean version of the Reaperish "...choose.." whisper as the Starbinger says his very last line (props if you caught it in my video). After I captured it, I turned sound effects back on so I could capture some sounds of the gun firing, and I noticed something new. 

The same ascending "Shepard Tone" we hear after waking up from harby's beam is also present in the decision chamber. It is very, very quiet, but there. 

[Macross]

HellishFiend wrote...

Macross wrote...

So. I've been on a plane to the other side of the world for the past few days. Any news pieces of news or evidence?

The Sounds of Possession

Very interesting.

You know, it's crap like this that will make me smash my face against a wall if the EC comes out and Indoc is false. Why all this effort? Is Bioware's really that stupid to put all that effort into all these little things and not see the brilliance of it?

On a sidenote, I love this community. When Bioware comes out and shows us that Indoc is true (I stopped doubting this along time ago), I can proudly say I was there when the majority of an entire fandom worked it out piece by piece.

[BatmanTurian]

FellishBeast wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

We may different in opinions about what prolonged exposure to reaper tech means so I'm not going to get into that.

I'm pretty sure if they were seeing things, the crew would tell someone, like Chakwas if she's stationed there. They would probably start behaving oddly enough so that Traynor would advise you to check up on them. Shepard also tells Garrus about the child, but he doesn't refer to him a a ghost so how would Garrus know that Shepard is seeing things too?

EDIT: Also Indoctrination is talked about a lot on the Normandy. I'm sure the crew is well educated on the effects and symptoms of indoctrination at this point.

Epyon, not to be rude, but that is pretty ironic of you to cite that as a counter-point. Considering we as the players are also well educated on the effects and symptoms of indoctrination, yet there are still so many, including yourself, that doubt the validity of IT. 

Ok I'm missing something here. Is the crew talking about Indoctrination evidence for IT?

No, youre basically trying to use "well, the crew knows about indoctrination symptoms, so they would know if they were indoctrinated!" as a counterpoint.

Not only is that completely illogical since the whole point of subtle indoctrination is that you dont know its happening, but we, as the players, also know about the symptoms and effects of indoctrination, and we see them everywhere throughout ME3. 

In my opinion, your doubt of IT, considering how much you know about indoctrination, simply parallels the same denial that the indoctrinated characters display in the games. 

Ahh, then no that's not what I mean.

I'm not saying that the person that's indoctrinated would come forward, I mean the crew that isn't would bring it to your attention. For example, Vega notices Ashley's spooked face, asks her if she's ok and she goes on to explain how she's ok just stressed. A subtle hint like that would get me on Ashley's case right away as that might be a symptom of Indoctrination.

Or finding a random crew member leaking information to an unkown source which could have been cerberus or other indoctrinated forces. Having Javik on the crew makes it even stranger that no one picks up on Shepard's or anyone else's indoctrination process.

You see where I'm going with this?

it's too subtle when Javik reads her. Obviously Protheans themselves can't tell if their own race was indoctrinated through their senses or they wouldn't have needed VIs. Also, certain crewmembers that you bring along with you to Chronos mention around the proto reaper's remains that they feel they are being watched etc. Some of them are partially indoctrinated as well. But Shepard is the Reaper's focus, not only because he's the protagonist and it's natural for the antagonist to focus on the protagonist, but also because of how important Shepard is.

Just to further counter epyon's point...if I'm not mistaken...didn't both Saren and the Illusive man STUDY indoctrination like crazy? They observed it, did it to other people, all of that good stuff. They probably knew the most about indoctrination of anyone, save the Reapers, and THEY were indoctrinated without realizing.

Case closed. 

" The transition between servant and slave is subtle. But it won't happen to me. "

[EpyonX3]

BatmanTurian wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

it's too subtle when Javik reads her. Obviously Protheans themselves can't tell if their own race was indoctrinated through their senses or they wouldn't have needed VIs. Also, certain crewmembers that you bring along with you to Chronos mention around the proto reaper's remains that they feel they are being watched etc. Some of them are partially indoctrinated as well. But Shepard is the Reaper's focus, not only because he's the protagonist and it's natural for the antagonist to focus on the protagonist, but also because of how important Shepard is.

It's not about detecting indoctrination itself, but studying the changes in behavior in the people around you. Look at the example of the derelect reaper scientists. Some started behaving odd before others and the other picked up on it. Unfortunately for them, they didn't understand what was happening until it was too late.

Behaving like that on the Normandy would get you thrown out of the airlock.

Yes I remember that. Did you know that early on when you attack the cerberus research lab to collect reaper tech, if you take Garrus, Garrus says, "Yup that's Reaper tech my brain hurts just looking at it." Does that mean that Garrus is now in the process of indoctrination and should be dreaming weird things and becoming paranoid?

It's not an on/off thing. Indoctrination is a slow process for a useful thrall. Headaches are a symptom of the early process.

My point is that Garrus' comment doesn't necessarily mean he had a headache and was only illustrating how weird it was. I had Vega along and he says, "yeah that's look really wierd, definitely reaper tech" or along those lines.

[HellishFiend]

HellishFiend wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

We may different in opinions about what prolonged exposure to reaper tech means so I'm not going to get into that.

I'm pretty sure if they were seeing things, the crew would tell someone, like Chakwas if she's stationed there. They would probably start behaving oddly enough so that Traynor would advise you to check up on them. Shepard also tells Garrus about the child, but he doesn't refer to him a a ghost so how would Garrus know that Shepard is seeing things too?

EDIT: Also Indoctrination is talked about a lot on the Normandy. I'm sure the crew is well educated on the effects and symptoms of indoctrination at this point.

Epyon, not to be rude, but that is pretty ironic of you to cite that as a counter-point. Considering we as the players are also well educated on the effects and symptoms of indoctrination, yet there are still so many, including yourself, that doubt the validity of IT. 

Ok I'm missing something here. Is the crew talking about Indoctrination evidence for IT?

No, youre basically trying to use "well, the crew knows about indoctrination symptoms, so they would know if they were indoctrinated!" as a counterpoint.

Not only is that completely illogical since the whole point of subtle indoctrination is that you dont know its happening, but we, as the players, also know about the symptoms and effects of indoctrination, and we see them everywhere throughout ME3. 

In my opinion, your doubt of IT, considering how much you know about indoctrination, simply parallels the same denial that the indoctrinated characters display in the games. 

Ahh, then no that's not what I mean.

I'm not saying that the person that's indoctrinated would come forward, I mean the crew that isn't would bring it to your attention. For example, Vega notices Ashley's spooked face, asks her if she's ok and she goes on to explain how she's ok just stressed. A subtle hint like that would get me on Ashley's case right away as that might be a symptom of Indoctrination.

Or finding a random crew member leaking information to an unkown source which could have been cerberus or other indoctrinated forces. Having Javik on the crew makes it even stranger that no one picks up on Shepard's or anyone else's indoctrination process.

You see where I'm going with this?

To the bolded statements: False, Horrible idea, and wouldnt happen. In that order.

To elaborate on the first one, the crew that isnt indoctrinated wouldnt bring anything to anyone's attention, because the people being affected by subtle indoctrination dont usually display outward symptoms. Even if they do, they are easily dismissable *coughPTSDcough*.

Second, that attitude would just result in a massive witch hunt that would destroy any chance for cohesive action and would likely end in a critical mission failure on principle alone.

Third, that also wouldnt happen, because subtle indoctrination doesnt cause the victim to overtly and blatantly aid the enemy, at least at first. Once the indoctrination progresses to the extent where the victim is ready to openly aid the Reapers, their belief is so strong that they are extremely careful not to blow their cover. Kenson, anyone?

So, either you dont know as much about indoctrination as I gave you credit for, or I stand by my statement that youre in denial.... :innocent:

Reposting this since you have thus far neglected to respond to it. 

These are uncounterable arguments if you stick to in game lore. Any arguments would have to rely on the use of creative license as a "just cuz" explanation for why things happen the way they do.

I believe you will fail to convince anybody that these findings are not incredibly damning to the face value interpretation. 

Modifié par HellishFiend, 18 juin 2012 - 06:18 .

[BatmanTurian]

EpyonX3 wrote...

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

Ahh, then no that's not what I mean.

I'm not saying that the person that's indoctrinated would come forward, I mean the crew that isn't would bring it to your attention. For example, Vega notices Ashley's spooked face, asks her if she's ok and she goes on to explain how she's ok just stressed. A subtle hint like that would get me on Ashley's case right away as that might be a symptom of Indoctrination.

Or finding a random crew member leaking information to an unkown source which could have been cerberus or other indoctrinated forces. Having Javik on the crew makes it even stranger that no one picks up on Shepard's or anyone else's indoctrination process.

You see where I'm going with this?

Javik dident pick up on the Indoctrination of his entire crew for all we know and Ashley herself says the line "How do you fight something which worms its way into your head?" It is pretty clear that Indoctrination is a foe no one really knows how to fight.

And as I allready said there is no shadow of doubt Shepard has the most exposure to Reaper tech in the crew. Those two days near Object Rho alone is more than most people we know of.

Most Indoctrination symptoms can be attributed to other causes. Bad dreams, headaches, hearing sounds? Who the hell would think Indoctrination as the first thing when hearing that, especially in the middle of a war, and even more so it is symptoms mostly centered on the person. If he/she dosent say a word of it no one is gonna know.

Every person we see or are told was Indoctrinated acts completely like the person he was before Indoctrination right up until the moment they reveal their true face. Doctor Amanda kenson was fully Indoctrinated when you get her out of the Batarian prison, but never shows any signs or even hints of thise before she reveals it full fledged standing before Object Rho.

That is what Indoctrination is, subtle and almost completely undetectable until the person him or herslef reveals their twisted alliance to the Reapers.

Like I said in a previous post above, I'm saying that Javik would detect indoctrination itself, but the changes in behavior of the crew, including Shepard. We can at least agree that Javik is good at reading people.

I'd believe the Object Rho thing if Shepard woke up next to the thing but he didn't. In fact, we don't see it again after he's knocked out. Also he was out for two days. Why didn't the indoctrination work while his brain was most vulnerable, but most effective when his brain is least vulnerable?

The limbic system, which is what the reapers attack, is actually more alert and active when under emotional and physical stress. An attack on this system during an event like that (After getting hit by Harbinger's beam) would go ignored as the brian prioritizes its signals to respond to the trauma. But a person who is out cold for hours and is not under physical stress (Shepard was sedated) would actually become indoctrinated much easier.

Javik can't detect it because his people couldn't detect this. That's why they had to use VI's to detect it. I will keep saying this as many times as I have to.

The rest of your post is ironically evidence that Shepard is indeed in the process of indoctrination. Adrenaline causes the indoctrination faster. If I was in a fight for my life against 50+ soldiers and mechs in a closed space, you're darn right I would feel an adrenaline surge.

Modifié par BatmanTurian, 18 juin 2012 - 06:23 .

[EpyonX3]

FellishBeast wrote...

Just to further counter epyon's point...if I'm not mistaken...didn't both Saren and the Illusive man STUDY indoctrination like crazy? They observed it, did it to other people, all of that good stuff. They probably knew the most about indoctrination of anyone, save the Reapers, and THEY were indoctrinated without realizing.

Case closed. 

Again I clarified earlier and stated that persons not undergoing indoctrination would notice behavioral changes, especially those on the normandy. Not the individual him/herself.

[HellishFiend]

EpyonX3 wrote...

FellishBeast wrote...

Just to further counter epyon's point...if I'm not mistaken...didn't both Saren and the Illusive man STUDY indoctrination like crazy? They observed it, did it to other people, all of that good stuff. They probably knew the most about indoctrination of anyone, save the Reapers, and THEY were indoctrinated without realizing.

Case closed. 

Again I clarified earlier and stated that persons not undergoing indoctrination would notice behavioral changes, especially those on the normandy. Not the individual him/herself.

You're quickly approaching facedesk territory, Epyon....

[D.Sharrah]

HellishFiend wrote...

D.Sharrah wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

It can't be, but you know people will try. Or just outright dismiss it out of spite.

At the risk of sounding overly harsh, I dont really care about those people. They arent going to change the contents of the EC with pure seething malice and spite. My video, and the evidence it presents, is aimed at people on the fence, or IT believers that dont know what infrasound is or how it applies. Those are the people I care about. 

Hellish...

I had  a chance to think more about the video today...and I did have a question if you don't mind?  Why didn't you include more in the video about the discussion b/w real world implications of infrasound and the game mechanics of indoctrination?

I know that you included the brief bit on infrasound being reported to cause people to "being watched" during paranormal investigations...but wasn't there more than that?

Directing is a fine art. My intention was to convey the evidence in the most compelling, dramatic fashion possible. To that end, I followed a traditional exposition -> rising action -> climax -> conclusion arc. I had to omit some things I would have normally put in if it was an ordinary exposition-only analysis video. Based on the results, I think I made the right choice in the direction I took. :happy:

To clarify, your suggestion would have overly extended the exposition phase, which would put the video at risk of losing the audience's attention before the rising action. 

That makes sense...I thought it might be that you were trying very hard to hit people over the head with the hammer saying, "Ahhhh...indoctrination, people...duhhh"

That being said...the video is awesome and the find of the evidence is amazing!  It makes me wonder if there is anything else from the codex description for indoctrination that we can tease out and find evidence for it in game...

[EpyonX3]

BatmanTurian wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

Ahh, then no that's not what I mean.

I'm not saying that the person that's indoctrinated would come forward, I mean the crew that isn't would bring it to your attention. For example, Vega notices Ashley's spooked face, asks her if she's ok and she goes on to explain how she's ok just stressed. A subtle hint like that would get me on Ashley's case right away as that might be a symptom of Indoctrination.

Or finding a random crew member leaking information to an unkown source which could have been cerberus or other indoctrinated forces. Having Javik on the crew makes it even stranger that no one picks up on Shepard's or anyone else's indoctrination process.

You see where I'm going with this?

Javik dident pick up on the Indoctrination of his entire crew for all we know and Ashley herself says the line "How do you fight something which worms its way into your head?" It is pretty clear that Indoctrination is a foe no one really knows how to fight.

And as I allready said there is no shadow of doubt Shepard has the most exposure to Reaper tech in the crew. Those two days near Object Rho alone is more than most people we know of.

Most Indoctrination symptoms can be attributed to other causes. Bad dreams, headaches, hearing sounds? Who the hell would think Indoctrination as the first thing when hearing that, especially in the middle of a war, and even more so it is symptoms mostly centered on the person. If he/she dosent say a word of it no one is gonna know.

Every person we see or are told was Indoctrinated acts completely like the person he was before Indoctrination right up until the moment they reveal their true face. Doctor Amanda kenson was fully Indoctrinated when you get her out of the Batarian prison, but never shows any signs or even hints of thise before she reveals it full fledged standing before Object Rho.

That is what Indoctrination is, subtle and almost completely undetectable until the person him or herslef reveals their twisted alliance to the Reapers.

Like I said in a previous post above, I'm saying that Javik would detect indoctrination itself, but the changes in behavior of the crew, including Shepard. We can at least agree that Javik is good at reading people.

I'd believe the Object Rho thing if Shepard woke up next to the thing but he didn't. In fact, we don't see it again after he's knocked out. Also he was out for two days. Why didn't the indoctrination work while his brain was most vulnerable, but most effective when his brain is least vulnerable?

The limbic system, which is what the reapers attack, is actually more alert and active when under emotional and physical stress. An attack on this system during an event like that (After getting hit by Harbinger's beam) would go ignored as the brian prioritizes its signals to respond to the trauma. But a person who is out cold for hours and is not under physical stress (Shepard was sedated) would actually become indoctrinated much easier.

Javik can't detect it because his people couldn't detect this. That's why they had to use VI's to detect it. I will keep saying this as many times as I have to.

The rest of your post is ironically evidence that Shepard is indeed in the process of indoctrination.

Sorry that's my bad.

Like I said in a previous post above, I'm saying that Javik
would detect indoctrination itself, but the changes in behavior of the
crew, including Shepard. We can at least agree that Javik is good at
reading people.

This sentence is supposed to be:

Like I said in a previous post above, I'm NOT saying that Javik
would detect indoctrination itself, but the changes in behavior of the
crew, including Shepard. We can at least agree that Javik is good at
reading people.

Forgot to put not. One word make me look like a crazy person!

[FellishBeast]

EpyonX3 wrote...

FellishBeast wrote...

Just to further counter epyon's point...if I'm not mistaken...didn't both Saren and the Illusive man STUDY indoctrination like crazy? They observed it, did it to other people, all of that good stuff. They probably knew the most about indoctrination of anyone, save the Reapers, and THEY were indoctrinated without realizing.

Case closed. 

Again I clarified earlier and stated that persons not undergoing indoctrination would notice behavioral changes, especially those on the normandy. Not the individual him/herself.

*sigh* Did you not see that I said "case closed?" If I wasn't OCD and loved doing paperwork I'd be slightly frustrated with you right now...uuuuugh.



Here I come, paperwork! We can be together at long last! <3:kissing:<3:kissing:

[Eryri]

HellishFiend wrote...

Eryri wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

Ok, for anyone curious, or doubting the validity of the intentional nature of the infrasound, I direct you to this post:

http://social.biowar...32/838#12618332 

Specifically, the file he put up for download:

http://www.sendspace...om/file/unhhv1 

TSA not only discovered the infrasound, but went a step further and furnished undeniable proof that the sounds are intentional by isolating and pitch shifting them upwards. When pitch shifted, the sounds become playable by speakers and audible by human ears. Think of it like using Autotune on a bad singer. Normally you wouldnt listen to them, but Autotune makes it to where you can hear it without becoming nauseated (usually). They are clearly engineered sounds, rather than unintentional noise bleeding down the spectrum. 

In my opinion, this is the most tangible, un-debunkable evidence that we've uncovered to date. It cant be dismissed.

First of all brilliant video! I can't even imagine the technical skill and dedication needed to look into this kind of thing.

Apologies if you've already adressed this, but just to play devil's advocate for a minute, have you analysed any of the "benign" scenes in the game, without any indoctrination related weirdness or Reapers, to check that they don't have any infra-sound?

My inner science geek is interested in things like falsifiable hypothesese. If there are any instances of creepy infrasound being there for no thematic reason it could just be some weird glitch with the sound software. But if there are absolutely no instances of infrasound where it shouldn't be, then it makes your proof all the more solid.

Thanks!

Good question, and yes, the presence of infrasound seems to be unique to the scenes and situations where Bioware wants to convey either an indoctrination signal, or the presence of an indoctrinated character (maybe both?). I attempted to kill two birds with one stone by showing the infrasound when Coats is around, and also showing that it goes away entirely when he leaves. And you can be sure that isnt the only part of the game where infrasound is absent....

Yes your point about the sound switching off abruptly when Coates leaves is very convincing.

I really do hope this was Bioware's plan all along and they have some terrific gameplay up their sleeve for the EC. If it comes out and has nothing to do with IT and instead just elaborates on the, at face value, bizarre endings  then I will probably facepalm hard enough to give myself concussion!

[LazyTechGuy]

Humakt83 wrote...

After exiting the turret:



Note that I tried the same sections with high ems Engineer (Renegade male) and Vanguard (Paragon female), no flashes.

Image is with low ems (1800 or so) Infiltrator.

It's definitely got my attention even if it turns out to be nothing.  Curious that it's not something that's continuous through different play throughs.  

If I remember right, at one point this blue flash happened and then the three soliders in the previous room disappeared.  Is that right?

[BatmanTurian]

EpyonX3 wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

Ahh, then no that's not what I mean.

I'm not saying that the person that's indoctrinated would come forward, I mean the crew that isn't would bring it to your attention. For example, Vega notices Ashley's spooked face, asks her if she's ok and she goes on to explain how she's ok just stressed. A subtle hint like that would get me on Ashley's case right away as that might be a symptom of Indoctrination.

Or finding a random crew member leaking information to an unkown source which could have been cerberus or other indoctrinated forces. Having Javik on the crew makes it even stranger that no one picks up on Shepard's or anyone else's indoctrination process.

You see where I'm going with this?

Javik dident pick up on the Indoctrination of his entire crew for all we know and Ashley herself says the line "How do you fight something which worms its way into your head?" It is pretty clear that Indoctrination is a foe no one really knows how to fight.

And as I allready said there is no shadow of doubt Shepard has the most exposure to Reaper tech in the crew. Those two days near Object Rho alone is more than most people we know of.

Most Indoctrination symptoms can be attributed to other causes. Bad dreams, headaches, hearing sounds? Who the hell would think Indoctrination as the first thing when hearing that, especially in the middle of a war, and even more so it is symptoms mostly centered on the person. If he/she dosent say a word of it no one is gonna know.

Every person we see or are told was Indoctrinated acts completely like the person he was before Indoctrination right up until the moment they reveal their true face. Doctor Amanda kenson was fully Indoctrinated when you get her out of the Batarian prison, but never shows any signs or even hints of thise before she reveals it full fledged standing before Object Rho.

That is what Indoctrination is, subtle and almost completely undetectable until the person him or herslef reveals their twisted alliance to the Reapers.

Like I said in a previous post above, I'm saying that Javik would detect indoctrination itself, but the changes in behavior of the crew, including Shepard. We can at least agree that Javik is good at reading people.

I'd believe the Object Rho thing if Shepard woke up next to the thing but he didn't. In fact, we don't see it again after he's knocked out. Also he was out for two days. Why didn't the indoctrination work while his brain was most vulnerable, but most effective when his brain is least vulnerable?

The limbic system, which is what the reapers attack, is actually more alert and active when under emotional and physical stress. An attack on this system during an event like that (After getting hit by Harbinger's beam) would go ignored as the brian prioritizes its signals to respond to the trauma. But a person who is out cold for hours and is not under physical stress (Shepard was sedated) would actually become indoctrinated much easier.

Javik can't detect it because his people couldn't detect this. That's why they had to use VI's to detect it. I will keep saying this as many times as I have to.

The rest of your post is ironically evidence that Shepard is indeed in the process of indoctrination.

Sorry that's my bad.

Like I said in a previous post above, I'm saying that Javik
would detect indoctrination itself, but the changes in behavior of the
crew, including Shepard. We can at least agree that Javik is good at
reading people.

This sentence is supposed to be:

Like I said in a previous post above, I'm NOT saying that Javik
would detect indoctrination itself, but the changes in behavior of the
crew, including Shepard. We can at least agree that Javik is good at
reading people.

Forgot to put not. One word make me look like a crazy person!

To Javik, it would just seem like stress fighting the reapers and having your homeworld being torn down, which he would understand. He wouldn't automatically jump to indoctrination. Shepard isn't trying to kill him.

[D.Sharrah]

EpyonX3 wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

it's too subtle when Javik reads her. Obviously Protheans themselves can't tell if their own race was indoctrinated through their senses or they wouldn't have needed VIs. Also, certain crewmembers that you bring along with you to Chronos mention around the proto reaper's remains that they feel they are being watched etc. Some of them are partially indoctrinated as well. But Shepard is the Reaper's focus, not only because he's the protagonist and it's natural for the antagonist to focus on the protagonist, but also because of how important Shepard is.

It's not about detecting indoctrination itself, but studying the changes in behavior in the people around you. Look at the example of the derelect reaper scientists. Some started behaving odd before others and the other picked up on it. Unfortunately for them, they didn't understand what was happening until it was too late.

Behaving like that on the Normandy would get you thrown out of the airlock.

Yes I remember that. Did you know that early on when you attack the cerberus research lab to collect reaper tech, if you take Garrus, Garrus says, "Yup that's Reaper tech my brain hurts just looking at it." Does that mean that Garrus is now in the process of indoctrination and should be dreaming weird things and becoming paranoid?

Given Garrus's position as the "adviser fro all things against the Reaper threat" in ME 3...he would make as much sense as a target for indoctrination as Shep...

For that matter, look at the rest of the crew...there is a arguement that you can make why each and everyone would be a viable target...

Tali - Fleet Admiral
Liara - Shadow Broker
Garrus - as mentioned above
VS - as close to Shep (in terms of galactic importance) as possible
James - ?, not exactly sure, Can anyone help?
EDI - AI
Javik - last of his race?

[HellishFiend]

FellishBeast wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

FellishBeast wrote...

Just to further counter epyon's point...if I'm not mistaken...didn't both Saren and the Illusive man STUDY indoctrination like crazy? They observed it, did it to other people, all of that good stuff. They probably knew the most about indoctrination of anyone, save the Reapers, and THEY were indoctrinated without realizing.

Case closed. 

Again I clarified earlier and stated that persons not undergoing indoctrination would notice behavioral changes, especially those on the normandy. Not the individual him/herself.

*sigh* Did you not see that I said "case closed?" If I wasn't OCD and loved doing paperwork I'd be slightly frustrated with you right now...uuuuugh.



Here I come, paperwork! We can be together at long last! <3:kissing:<3:kissing:

Epyon has that effect on me a lot, too.  He is civil though, which is more than I can say for most Anti-IT that come in here. So if nothing else, he helps us realize if we have any holes in our theories. In this case we dont, but he'll still try....

[TSA_383]

FFZero wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

FFZero wrote...

Very well done Hellishfiend! Also thanks for adding me in the credits, feels good to have finally contributed something the indoc theory.

Also I've been finding even more instances of infra sound in the game, the ardat yakshi mission has quite a few, one of which is particularly interesting since there's no audible bass. Found a few from the Geth dreadnought mission, which isn't surprising, and found a few on the mission where you save the Cerberus scientists.

Do you guys think the Banshees emit infrasonic in their screams? Has that been analyzed? They consistantly create terror as soon as I hear them in SP and MP. Some of it might have to do with the Slenderman power they exibit, jumping at you so fast, having an instakill move. But I think it's more than that.

I thought the same thing about their screams but sadly no, there's no infra sound. However their crazy violin music cues do have infrasound, this is the sound I was referring to as having no audible bass. Here’s the analysis



And here is the analysis for the track for that mission that’s on the OST.

That first one's really interesting - second one could...maaybe be analysis noise, but is probably also infrasonic to some extent...

Actually, I find it interesting there's so much bass in banshee screams - it's not something I'd picked up on.

Salient Archer wrote...

Had a weird thought that I haven't
fully formed but need to express before I forget it... Anyway; as we
know Indoctrination is essentially inception; it's having somebody
else's idea (in this case the Reapers) planted so deeply inside your
psyche that you truly believe it to be your own. So what if the uniting
of the galactic fleet and hence galaxy was a Reaper concept planted
inside Shepard's head? We know that TIM was indoctrinated and thought
that his actions were working towards stoping/controlling the Reapers
and we know that the Reapers just adapted TIMs core beliefs and aptitude
to use him to their advantage. So what if the Reapers have just twisted
Shepard's desire to stop them to their own advantage by getting him to
 gift wrap the galactic fleet for them so they can destroy the fleets
collective asses in one foul swoop? This could also explain why
Starbinger seems so disappointed when Shepard does a ******-poor job of
uniting everyone... Anyway I'm not personally sold on the idea and I'm
sure it has some plot holes in it but I just thought I'd offer it up for
debate.

Sounds about right actually - not sure what that'd do for replayability though, as it stands I'm having trouble not skipping quests that only get you crucible assets

[EpyonX3]

HellishFiend wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

We may different in opinions about what prolonged exposure to reaper tech means so I'm not going to get into that.

I'm pretty sure if they were seeing things, the crew would tell someone, like Chakwas if she's stationed there. They would probably start behaving oddly enough so that Traynor would advise you to check up on them. Shepard also tells Garrus about the child, but he doesn't refer to him a a ghost so how would Garrus know that Shepard is seeing things too?

EDIT: Also Indoctrination is talked about a lot on the Normandy. I'm sure the crew is well educated on the effects and symptoms of indoctrination at this point.

Epyon, not to be rude, but that is pretty ironic of you to cite that as a counter-point. Considering we as the players are also well educated on the effects and symptoms of indoctrination, yet there are still so many, including yourself, that doubt the validity of IT. 

Ok I'm missing something here. Is the crew talking about Indoctrination evidence for IT?

No, youre basically trying to use "well, the crew knows about indoctrination symptoms, so they would know if they were indoctrinated!" as a counterpoint.

Not only is that completely illogical since the whole point of subtle indoctrination is that you dont know its happening, but we, as the players, also know about the symptoms and effects of indoctrination, and we see them everywhere throughout ME3. 

In my opinion, your doubt of IT, considering how much you know about indoctrination, simply parallels the same denial that the indoctrinated characters display in the games. 

Ahh, then no that's not what I mean.

I'm not saying that the person that's indoctrinated would come forward, I mean the crew that isn't would bring it to your attention. For example, Vega notices Ashley's spooked face, asks her if she's ok and she goes on to explain how she's ok just stressed. A subtle hint like that would get me on Ashley's case right away as that might be a symptom of Indoctrination.

Or finding a random crew member leaking information to an unkown source which could have been cerberus or other indoctrinated forces. Having Javik on the crew makes it even stranger that no one picks up on Shepard's or anyone else's indoctrination process.

You see where I'm going with this?

To the bolded statements: False, Horrible idea, and wouldnt happen. In that order.

To elaborate on the first one, the crew that isnt indoctrinated wouldnt bring anything to anyone's attention, because the people being affected by subtle indoctrination dont usually display outward symptoms. Even if they do, they are easily dismissable *coughPTSDcough*.

Second, that attitude would just result in a massive witch hunt that would destroy any chance for cohesive action and would likely end in a critical mission failure on principle alone.

Third, that also wouldnt happen, because subtle indoctrination doesnt cause the victim to overtly and blatantly aid the enemy, at least at first. Once the indoctrination progresses to the extent where the victim is ready to openly aid the Reapers, their belief is so strong that they are extremely careful not to blow their cover. Kenson, anyone?

So, either you dont know as much about indoctrination as I gave you credit for, or I stand by my statement that youre in denial.... :innocent:

Reposting this since you have thus far neglected to respond to it. 

These are uncounterable arguments if you stick to in game lore. Any arguments would have to rely on the use of creative license as a "just cuz" explanation for why things happen the way they do.

I believe you will fail to convince anybody that these findings are not incredibly damning to the face value interpretation. 

Sorry I've been responding to multiple people.

Ahh but they do! Vega hears a hum, Garrus says his head hurts when looking at reaper tech, conversations about indoctrination going on around the ship. Some one is bound to say something about it, especially Chakwas, since she's responsible for the health and well being of the entire crew.

Also about outward symptoms, I'll refer you to the crew on the Derelict Reaper. The crew didn't get mind freaked all at once, and the changes in behavior were noticed by other crew members.

Isn't a witch hunt exactly what the reapers want when they indoctrinate? Divide and conquer, in fighting between organic civilizations. That's in the lore as well.

We also don't know many of the people stationed on the Normandy. There are new faces who may have been in contact or is even indoctrinated. It would be easy for bioware to plant one of these random agents on the normandy.  And this wouldn't be known until the agent is caught aiding the enemy. It would even explain the hum on the normandy.

[EpyonX3]

BatmanTurian wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

Ahh, then no that's not what I mean.

I'm not saying that the person that's indoctrinated would come forward, I mean the crew that isn't would bring it to your attention. For example, Vega notices Ashley's spooked face, asks her if she's ok and she goes on to explain how she's ok just stressed. A subtle hint like that would get me on Ashley's case right away as that might be a symptom of Indoctrination.

Or finding a random crew member leaking information to an unkown source which could have been cerberus or other indoctrinated forces. Having Javik on the crew makes it even stranger that no one picks up on Shepard's or anyone else's indoctrination process.

You see where I'm going with this?

Javik dident pick up on the Indoctrination of his entire crew for all we know and Ashley herself says the line "How do you fight something which worms its way into your head?" It is pretty clear that Indoctrination is a foe no one really knows how to fight.

And as I allready said there is no shadow of doubt Shepard has the most exposure to Reaper tech in the crew. Those two days near Object Rho alone is more than most people we know of.

Most Indoctrination symptoms can be attributed to other causes. Bad dreams, headaches, hearing sounds? Who the hell would think Indoctrination as the first thing when hearing that, especially in the middle of a war, and even more so it is symptoms mostly centered on the person. If he/she dosent say a word of it no one is gonna know.

Every person we see or are told was Indoctrinated acts completely like the person he was before Indoctrination right up until the moment they reveal their true face. Doctor Amanda kenson was fully Indoctrinated when you get her out of the Batarian prison, but never shows any signs or even hints of thise before she reveals it full fledged standing before Object Rho.

That is what Indoctrination is, subtle and almost completely undetectable until the person him or herslef reveals their twisted alliance to the Reapers.

Like I said in a previous post above, I'm saying that Javik would detect indoctrination itself, but the changes in behavior of the crew, including Shepard. We can at least agree that Javik is good at reading people.

I'd believe the Object Rho thing if Shepard woke up next to the thing but he didn't. In fact, we don't see it again after he's knocked out. Also he was out for two days. Why didn't the indoctrination work while his brain was most vulnerable, but most effective when his brain is least vulnerable?

The limbic system, which is what the reapers attack, is actually more alert and active when under emotional and physical stress. An attack on this system during an event like that (After getting hit by Harbinger's beam) would go ignored as the brian prioritizes its signals to respond to the trauma. But a person who is out cold for hours and is not under physical stress (Shepard was sedated) would actually become indoctrinated much easier.

Javik can't detect it because his people couldn't detect this. That's why they had to use VI's to detect it. I will keep saying this as many times as I have to.

The rest of your post is ironically evidence that Shepard is indeed in the process of indoctrination.

Sorry that's my bad.

Like I said in a previous post above, I'm saying that Javik
would detect indoctrination itself, but the changes in behavior of the
crew, including Shepard. We can at least agree that Javik is good at
reading people.

This sentence is supposed to be:

Like I said in a previous post above, I'm NOT saying that Javik
would detect indoctrination itself, but the changes in behavior of the
crew, including Shepard. We can at least agree that Javik is good at
reading people.

Forgot to put not. One word make me look like a crazy person!

To Javik, it would just seem like stress fighting the reapers and having your homeworld being torn down, which he would understand. He wouldn't automatically jump to indoctrination. Shepard isn't trying to kill him.

Not just Shepard though, but others on the Normandy as well.

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

D.Sharrah wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

it's too subtle when Javik reads her. Obviously Protheans themselves can't tell if their own race was indoctrinated through their senses or they wouldn't have needed VIs. Also, certain crewmembers that you bring along with you to Chronos mention around the proto reaper's remains that they feel they are being watched etc. Some of them are partially indoctrinated as well. But Shepard is the Reaper's focus, not only because he's the protagonist and it's natural for the antagonist to focus on the protagonist, but also because of how important Shepard is.

It's not about detecting indoctrination itself, but studying the changes in behavior in the people around you. Look at the example of the derelect reaper scientists. Some started behaving odd before others and the other picked up on it. Unfortunately for them, they didn't understand what was happening until it was too late.

Behaving like that on the Normandy would get you thrown out of the airlock.

Yes I remember that. Did you know that early on when you attack the cerberus research lab to collect reaper tech, if you take Garrus, Garrus says, "Yup that's Reaper tech my brain hurts just looking at it." Does that mean that Garrus is now in the process of indoctrination and should be dreaming weird things and becoming paranoid?

Given Garrus's position as the "adviser fro all things against the Reaper threat" in ME 3...he would make as much sense as a target for indoctrination as Shep...

For that matter, look at the rest of the crew...there is a arguement that you can make why each and everyone would be a viable target...

Tali - Fleet Admiral
Liara - Shadow Broker
Garrus - as mentioned above
VS - as close to Shep (in terms of galactic importance) as possible
James - ?, not exactly sure, Can anyone help?
EDI - AI
Javik - last of his race?

Just to get one thing on the clear. The sciencetists on the derelict reaper did not undergo slow and subtle Indoctrination like Shepard is beeing subjected to, the proof of that is in the fact that they were Indoctrinated so cquickly. They were subjected to the fast kind, the kind that erodes your mind very fast and leaves you little more than a Husk...oh wait that is all we encountered on the Derelict reaper.

None of them were subverted in the way Saren and TIM are, they simply had their mind crushed so to speak and the clearly noticeable effects are a result of that.

[EpyonX3]

FellishBeast wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

FellishBeast wrote...

Just to further counter epyon's point...if I'm not mistaken...didn't both Saren and the Illusive man STUDY indoctrination like crazy? They observed it, did it to other people, all of that good stuff. They probably knew the most about indoctrination of anyone, save the Reapers, and THEY were indoctrinated without realizing.

Case closed. 

Again I clarified earlier and stated that persons not undergoing indoctrination would notice behavioral changes, especially those on the normandy. Not the individual him/herself.

*sigh* Did you not see that I said "case closed?" If I wasn't OCD and loved doing paperwork I'd be slightly frustrated with you right now...uuuuugh.



Here I come, paperwork! We can be together at long last! <3:kissing:<3:kissing:

You can't close the case! The killer is still out there!

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

EpyonX3 wrote...

Not just Shepard though, but others on the Normandy as well.

To bring this up again.

Javiks entire crew was Indoctrinated and nothing indicates he ever realized it before it was too late...yeah it is really something he would quickly catch on to...

[D.Sharrah]

EpyonX3 wrote...

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

Ahh, then no that's not what I mean.

I'm not saying that the person that's indoctrinated would come forward, I mean the crew that isn't would bring it to your attention. For example, Vega notices Ashley's spooked face, asks her if she's ok and she goes on to explain how she's ok just stressed. A subtle hint like that would get me on Ashley's case right away as that might be a symptom of Indoctrination.

Or finding a random crew member leaking information to an unkown source which could have been cerberus or other indoctrinated forces. Having Javik on the crew makes it even stranger that no one picks up on Shepard's or anyone else's indoctrination process.

You see where I'm going with this?

Javik dident pick up on the Indoctrination of his entire crew for all we know and Ashley herself says the line "How do you fight something which worms its way into your head?" It is pretty clear that Indoctrination is a foe no one really knows how to fight.

And as I allready said there is no shadow of doubt Shepard has the most exposure to Reaper tech in the crew. Those two days near Object Rho alone is more than most people we know of.

Most Indoctrination symptoms can be attributed to other causes. Bad dreams, headaches, hearing sounds? Who the hell would think Indoctrination as the first thing when hearing that, especially in the middle of a war, and even more so it is symptoms mostly centered on the person. If he/she dosent say a word of it no one is gonna know.

Every person we see or are told was Indoctrinated acts completely like the person he was before Indoctrination right up until the moment they reveal their true face. Doctor Amanda kenson was fully Indoctrinated when you get her out of the Batarian prison, but never shows any signs or even hints of thise before she reveals it full fledged standing before Object Rho.

That is what Indoctrination is, subtle and almost completely undetectable until the person him or herslef reveals their twisted alliance to the Reapers.

Like I said in a previous post above, I'm saying that Javik would detect indoctrination itself, but the changes in behavior of the crew, including Shepard. We can at least agree that Javik is good at reading people.

I'd believe the Object Rho thing if Shepard woke up next to the thing but he didn't. In fact, we don't see it again after he's knocked out. Also he was out for two days. Why didn't the indoctrination work while his brain was most vulnerable, but most effective when his brain is least vulnerable?

The limbic system, which is what the reapers attack, is actually more alert and active when under emotional and physical stress. An attack on this system during an event like that (After getting hit by Harbinger's beam) would go ignored as the brian prioritizes its signals to respond to the trauma. But a person who is out cold for hours and is not under physical stress (Shepard was sedated) would actually become indoctrinated much easier.

Perhaps Harbinger wanted to save the final push of indoctrination at the point to himself...much like Sovereign did to Saren...I do not think that it is coincidence that Shep was lured to the very place that the Reapers were going to use as their launching pad to the rest of the galaxy...it wouldn't even surprise me if Shep was meant to survive that encounter and get away...and the point is that we don't really know what happened during the two days that Shep was sedated - he could have been implanted with reaper tech then for all we know.

That post was alot of incoherent rambling...I hope you get what I am trying to say, if not then perhaps one of our more eloquent members can translate (given that they understand)...

[HellishFiend]

EpyonX3 wrote...

Sorry I've been responding to multiple people.

Ahh but they do! Vega hears a hum, Garrus says his head hurts when looking at reaper tech, conversations about indoctrination going on around the ship. Some one is bound to say something about it, especially Chakwas, since she's responsible for the health and well being of the entire crew.

Also about outward symptoms, I'll refer you to the crew on the Derelict Reaper. The crew didn't get mind freaked all at once, and the changes in behavior were noticed by other crew members.

Isn't a witch hunt exactly what the reapers want when they indoctrinate? Divide and conquer, in fighting between organic civilizations. That's in the lore as well.

We also don't know many of the people stationed on the Normandy. There are new faces who may have been in contact or is even indoctrinated. It would be easy for bioware to plant one of these random agents on the normandy.  And this wouldn't be known until the agent is caught aiding the enemy. It would even explain the hum on the normandy.

Look around you, Epyon. You're not convincing anyone but yourself. I could counter every point in that post using in game lore and events instead of mere speculation, but I dont think it would work on you at this point. I'm satisfied that this evidence is solid, and so is everyone else.