55528 réponses à ce sujet

[Big Bad]

@TSA 383 - yeah i kinda figured that my idea wasn't too practical, but i figured I would ask.

[HellishFiend]

draken-heart wrote...

Batman Turian, i have read a bit into Indoctrination, and know what it does, but Shepard is remarkably strong-willed. it would remarkably difficult for one reaper to even plant the seed let alone actually indoctrinate Shepard as IT states, it is harbinger indoctrinating Shepard. unless i read that wrong, in order for it to happen over 1 year (Shepard was dead, so that may have reset the Indoctrination count for Shepard) Shepard would have to be around reaper stuff for quite awhile and have Every reaper in the Sol System going for him/her.

Not trying to leap into your discussion, but I did want to mention that Shepard's death/revival could not have "reset the count" for Shepard. Indoctrination is a both a permanent physical and psychological effect on the brain that, as far as we know, cant be reversed in any way. 

[BatmanTurian]

draken-heart wrote...

Batman Turian, i have read a bit into Indoctrination, and know what it does, but Shepard is remarkably strong-willed. it would remarkably difficult for one reaper to even plant the seed let alone actually indoctrinate Shepard as IT states, it is harbinger indoctrinating Shepard. unless i read that wrong, in order for it to happen over 1 year (Shepard was dead, so that may have reset the Indoctrination count for Shepard) Shepard would have to be around reaper stuff for quite awhile and have Every reaper in the Sol System going for him/her.

Shepard has been in and around reapertech for a combined 3 years and was up-close and personal with the Proto-Reaper. Shepard is not invincible to indoctrination. He's not superman. He may have an iron will like Batman, but even Batman had his bad days. Even the strongest will can be broken with the right application of pressure and time.

[EpyonX3]

BatmanTurian wrote...

If you start looking at the game itself as an Unreliable Narrator and do some research into what slow Indoctrination by a Reaper does to a person, then you will begin to understand. Like I said, you're almost there. You just need to be a little open-minded and consider some of the observations we've made and how they fit the lore.

So who's the unreliable Narrator for ME3?

[BatmanTurian]

HellishFiend wrote...

draken-heart wrote...

Batman Turian, i have read a bit into Indoctrination, and know what it does, but Shepard is remarkably strong-willed. it would remarkably difficult for one reaper to even plant the seed let alone actually indoctrinate Shepard as IT states, it is harbinger indoctrinating Shepard. unless i read that wrong, in order for it to happen over 1 year (Shepard was dead, so that may have reset the Indoctrination count for Shepard) Shepard would have to be around reaper stuff for quite awhile and have Every reaper in the Sol System going for him/her.

Not trying to leap into your discussion, but I did want to mention that Shepard's death/revival could not have "reset the count" for Shepard. Indoctrination is a both a permanent physical and psychological effect on the brain that, as far as we know, cant be reversed in any way. 

Yeah, I've noticed people bring up that Shepard's death would reset it, but it never made sense. It causes permanent brain damage.

[EpyonX3]

BatmanTurian wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

draken-heart wrote...

Batman Turian, i have read a bit into Indoctrination, and know what it does, but Shepard is remarkably strong-willed. it would remarkably difficult for one reaper to even plant the seed let alone actually indoctrinate Shepard as IT states, it is harbinger indoctrinating Shepard. unless i read that wrong, in order for it to happen over 1 year (Shepard was dead, so that may have reset the Indoctrination count for Shepard) Shepard would have to be around reaper stuff for quite awhile and have Every reaper in the Sol System going for him/her.

Not trying to leap into your discussion, but I did want to mention that Shepard's death/revival could not have "reset the count" for Shepard. Indoctrination is a both a permanent physical and psychological effect on the brain that, as far as we know, cant be reversed in any way. 

Yeah, I've noticed people bring up that Shepard's death would reset it, but it never made sense. It causes permanent brain damage.

Never heard of that but if his brain were being repaired, couldn't that have repaired the damage done by the reapers? In any case i doesn't matter because IT, in my opinion, is stronger with Object Rho being the start point.

[BatmanTurian]

EpyonX3 wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

If you start looking at the game itself as an Unreliable Narrator
and do some research into what slow Indoctrination by a Reaper does to a
person, then you will begin to understand. Like I said, you're almost
there. You just need to be a little open-minded and consider some of the
observations we've made and how they fit the lore.

So who's the unreliable Narrator for ME3?

Bioware, of course. They're the writers.
of course they could also be doing Lying Creator or some combination of both.

[TSA_383]

One more quick note on infrasound (it's time for a science lesson!)

This is why we ignore super-low frequencies unless they're seriously apparent:

When you record something at, say, 48Khz, then downsample it to, say, 24Khz (as was done with some of the ME3 audio files) then occasionally you get signals created at very low frequencies as noise.

With the magic of MS Paint I've explained why:


Now, suspend disbelief for a moment and pretend that I don't have the mouse control of a drunk epileptic at a prodigy gig, and I'll explain what happens.

Say you have a 48Khz recording and you've got a sound in there at 22Khz (which you probably wouldn't care about anyway). When you downshift to 24Khz you'll end up with the original wave (represented in blue) being sampled only slightly more regularly than it cycles, and as a result you'll actually end up with a wave of much, much lower frequency (represented in green) being recorded into the new lower sample-rate audio.

Now, this is something that will usually happen at low-ish volumes, so you'll almost always get a bit of infrasound in a recording that's undergone this process.

In addition to that you also get spectral leakage, and pretty quickly you have to stop trusting that the low-level infrasound you see is intentional.


BUT.
This is not something that will happen at high volumes, so when we get the massively loud infrasound we saw in the dream sequences for example, this effect can be pretty much discounted.

[BatmanTurian]

EpyonX3 wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

draken-heart wrote...

Batman Turian, i have read a bit into Indoctrination, and know what it does, but Shepard is remarkably strong-willed. it would remarkably difficult for one reaper to even plant the seed let alone actually indoctrinate Shepard as IT states, it is harbinger indoctrinating Shepard. unless i read that wrong, in order for it to happen over 1 year (Shepard was dead, so that may have reset the Indoctrination count for Shepard) Shepard would have to be around reaper stuff for quite awhile and have Every reaper in the Sol System going for him/her.

Not trying to leap into your discussion, but I did want to mention that Shepard's death/revival could not have "reset the count" for Shepard. Indoctrination is a both a permanent physical and psychological effect on the brain that, as far as we know, cant be reversed in any way. 

Yeah, I've noticed people bring up that Shepard's death would reset it, but it never made sense. It causes permanent brain damage.

Never heard of that but if his brain were being repaired, couldn't that have repaired the damage done by the reapers? In any case i doesn't matter because IT, in my opinion, is stronger with Object Rho being the start point.

Rho is a good starting point, but just to cover the people that go " I didn't play Arrival", I'd rather start with Reaper Jr.

[Arashi08]

EpyonX3 wrote...

Arashi08 wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

Arashi08 wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

Arashi08 wrote...


1) Tali as an admiral adds a point to the point system that determines whether it is possible to broker peace between quarians and geth or not.  the wiki page elaborates on how it is a contributing factor.

2) Liara is STILL the Shadow Broker.  Did you not go into her office and read her messages? Or speak to Barla Von when prompted? She still has her information newtork, her network of agents, her connections.   The only thing she doesn't have is her ship, which she destroyed to stop TIM from getting it.  The essential equipment from her ship was put on the Normandy when she (and possibly Feron) loaded it onto their shuttle and escaped.

Those are the only points I wanted to bring up that were factually incorrect, the others are really based on speculation and personal interpretation.

Edited for grammar

1) Tali may be an admiral in one possible playthrough but she alone could never have gotten the Geth and Quarians to stand down. Getting geth and quarian peace without Tali being an Admiral makes Tali being an Admiral less influencial.

Also, she did little to stop the Quarians from attacking the Geth and trying to retake Rannoch. That whole situation played out the same no matter what.

2) I did say she isn't or at least she' not a very capable broker. Since she lost her ship and contact with most of her informants, her abilities to gather info isn't as good as it once was. TIM has a better network than Liara.

Irrelevant, I was merely pointing out that Tali as an Admiral DOES affect the possibility for peace, that is in-game.  doesn't matter whether she can or can't do it herself.  the fact remains her being an admiral adds to the point valus.  can you still get peace without it? yes, I was pointing out that her statusas an admiral always does contribute a point to it.

No matter how damaged her newtork is Liara is still the Shadow Broker.  she still has contacts and data feeds.  the war caused her damage but she never stopped being SB because of it.  and quite frankly I think that her ability to keep her info network in tact while losing her ship, alot of her resources and losing some of her agents due to reaper attacks, is more compelling evidence that she IS actually very capable.  she's working with more limited resources and yet she can still pull all this together.  so ya she lost hership and her info network is downgraded due to losing so much so now TIM has the advantage, but that doesn't mean she's any less capable.

That may be but it has nothing to do with the point I was making. Tali being an admiral doesn't automatically make her a target for indoctrination, especially since it's obvious she has little power in decision making.

Ok I don't know why we're even arguing the point about Liara especially since I acknowledged, twice, that she's still Shadow Broker. But even she admits that her network isn't as good as it should be. Sure she's still going at it but TIM, who isn't the Shadow Broker, knew about Thessia before Liara. That alone speaks volumes as to how the shadow broker network is a shell of what it once was.

I was just pointing out the factual errors, the indoc target thing is irrelevant for me, but you said her admrial role didn't matter and that Liara isn't the shadow broker, I was pointing out that these were incorrect statements.

As for how her network is in comparison to TIM's it seels likely to me that...

Wait!

I've suddenly stopped caring...

I said Tali's Admiral position doesn't matter in the context of her being a target for indoctrination, not int eh context of the story mechanics. So yo were correcting me for something I wasn't talking about.

Um... Excuse me! not caring over here!

Some people...so inconsiderate

oh btw this is yours:

Tali was exiled in my playthrough, but even as an Admiral, the actions of the Quarians didn't really depend much on her word.

Liara's no longer the Shadow broker, or at least a very capable one from the start of the game.

[Gernbuster]

draken-heart wrote...

Batman Turian, i have read a bit into Indoctrination, and know what it does, but Shepard is remarkably strong-willed. it would remarkably difficult for one reaper to even plant the seed let alone actually indoctrinate Shepard as IT states, it is harbinger indoctrinating Shepard. unless i read that wrong, in order for it to happen over 1 year (Shepard was dead, so that may have reset the Indoctrination count for Shepard) Shepard would have to be around reaper stuff for quite awhile and have Every reaper in the Sol System going for him/her.

A human with remarkibly strong will, against the strongest thread organics know so far, comming from an ancient super race of  machines, which havent loss a war for million of years, with their godlike leader?
ARE U KIDDING? Shepard is a soldier and not the most powerful superhero of all times.
Btw its impossible not to get indoctrinated at least over time after u met an indoctrination device.
If the virus is inside your head it will expand. And even if Shepard can't get indoctrinated there must at least be a fight against indoctrination.

[Xavendithas]

draken-heart wrote...

Batman Turian, i have read a bit into Indoctrination, and know what it does, but Shepard is remarkably strong-willed. it would remarkably difficult for one reaper to even plant the seed let alone actually indoctrinate Shepard as IT states, it is harbinger indoctrinating Shepard. unless i read that wrong, in order for it to happen over 1 year (Shepard was dead, so that may have reset the Indoctrination count for Shepard) Shepard would have to be around reaper stuff for quite awhile and have Every reaper in the Sol System going for him/her.

I dunno, look at what happened to Rana Thanoptis.

[HellishFiend]

TSA_383 wrote...

One more quick note on infrasound (it's time for a science lesson!)

This is why we ignore super-low frequencies unless they're seriously apparent:

When you record something at, say, 48Khz, then downsample it to, say, 24Khz (as was done with some of the ME3 audio files) then occasionally you get signals created at very low frequencies as noise.

With the magic of MS Paint I've explained why:


Now, suspend disbelief for a moment and pretend that I don't have the mouse control of a drunk epileptic at a prodigy gig, and I'll explain what happens.

Say you have a 48Khz recording and you've got a sound in there at 22Khz (which you probably wouldn't care about anyway). When you downshift to 24Khz you'll end up with the original wave (represented in blue) being sampled only slightly more regularly than it cycles, and as a result you'll actually end up with a wave of much, much lower frequency (represented in green) being recorded into the new lower sample-rate audio.

Now, this is something that will usually happen at low-ish volumes, so you'll almost always get a bit of infrasound in a recording that's undergone this process.

In addition to that you also get spectral leakage, and pretty quickly you have to stop trusting that the low-level infrasound you see is intentional.


BUT.
This is not something that will happen at high volumes, so when we get the massively loud infrasound we saw in the dream sequences for example, this effect can be pretty much discounted.

<3

[BatmanTurian]

check it. This guy says we're in permanent denial and that:

"The problem with IT is that it has been directly contradicted multiple times by people working on EC/Biowares EC statements."

Dealing with this BS every day, I hope the EC makes it all worth it...

Modifié par BatmanTurian, 18 juin 2012 - 08:47 .

[Jadebaby]

Jade8aby88 wrote...


Oh also guys, important... Check out this vid by .. ehh I'll just post the OP...

It's from the "why you chose destroy" thread. The video relates heavily to the IT, it does touch on a lot of things you have probably seen before... But he really highlights the plotholes going back to ME1 with Sovereign, it's done very well so I thought it deserved more appreciation

Check it out if you have the time, it goes for 28 mins.

Xellith wrote...

www.youtube.com/user/Xellith

I chose destroy because of this. This is my interpretation of the ending.

[Riot86]

Just had some quick thought about the "Catalyst" (NOT the Starchild)...

So, despite having the galaxy's best engineers and scientists working on the Crucible, nobody can tell what the missing part called the "Catalyst" actually is. Also, no one knows what the Crucible itself really does. So I guess it is save to assume, that at least some of those brilliant scientists have tried to figure those two things out. So far, so good...I have no problem with this part.

Then the Prothean VI tells you, that the Citadel is the Catalyst....
And suddently it seems to be clear, that we have to attach the Crucible at the backside of the Presidium tower? And of course, it fits perfect...how convienient 


So now I have a question:

Why did not one(!!) of the most brilliant minds in the whole galaxy figure this out before? Wouldn't studiying the plans reveal that the 4 Crucible "arms" have the exact same span as the Presidum Ring's radius? Wouldn't some computer assisted analysis of the blueprints at least point out this "conincidence"? Remember, were not talking about some random space station in the Horsehead Nebula, we're talking about the Centre of the Galactic Community. If the last hope we have in this war has the same scale as the Citadel, I find it VERY hard to believe that nobody found out about this. This makes no friggin sense! :happy:

I'm actually starting to believe, that the whole Prothean VI part on Cronos Station (maybe even the whole mission) was also a hallucination and we still don't know what the Catalyst is.


And this part being a dream would also fit in with one of my favorite aspect of the IT - the hallucination consists of elements from Shepard's memory.

Just look at the ending of Mass Effect 1. We talk to a Prothean VI which tells us, the way to stop the Reapers is to go to the Citadel. To the Presidium Tower to be specific. We also get the info that our adversary (= Saren) is already there. We finally reach the Citadel through the "Conduit".

In Mass Effect 3 we talk to a Prothean VI which tells us the way to stop the Reapers is to bring the Crucible to the Citadel. And dock it at the backside of the Presidium Tower to be specific. We also get the info that our adversary (= TIM) is already there. We finally reach the Citadel through a "Conduit".

Sounds pretty similar to me...

Modifié par Riot86, 18 juin 2012 - 08:51 .

[Jadebaby]

BatmanTurian wrote...

check it. This guy says we're in permanent denial and that:

"The problem with IT is that it has been directly contradicted multiple times by people working on EC/Biowares EC statements."

Dealing with this BS every day, I hope the EC makes it all worth it...

While it seems increasingly unlikely, it could just be Bioware trying to spin things in the other direction, remember IT popularity is at an all time high.

[lex0r11]

BatmanTurian wrote...

check it. This guy says we're in permanent denial and that:

"The problem with IT is that it has been directly contradicted multiple times by people working on EC/Biowares EC statements."

Dealing with this BS every day, I hope the EC makes it all worth it...

[HellishFiend]

BatmanTurian wrote...

check it. This guy says we're in permanent denial and that:

"The problem with IT is that it has been directly contradicted multiple times by people working on EC/Biowares EC statements."

Dealing with this BS every day, I hope the EC makes it all worth it...

You certainly are a brave soldier traversing the breach, BT.

Fortunately, you can feel a lot better now, because at this point we finally have rock-solid tangible evidence rather than just a bevy of thematic/symbolic evidence.

In my opinion, thematic/symbolic evidence is equally powerful, but thats just me.

In any case, with the addition of this tangible evidence to our case, we can now simply present it to people and watch as they struggle to disregard it without looking like it is they who are in denial. If they do that, you know you can just feel good about walking away.

[Bill Casey]

TSA_383 wrote...
It's not possible to put in frequencies above the nyquist frequency (wikipedia it ).

So for the sounds in ME3, which are stored at 24/32Khz mostly, the highest frequency possible (even with distortion) is 12Khz/16Khz.

Just curious...
What's the frequency of the high pitched ringing here?

www.youtube.com/watch

[BatmanTurian]

Jade8aby88 wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

check it. This guy says we're in permanent denial and that:

"The problem with IT is that it has been directly contradicted multiple times by people working on EC/Biowares EC statements."

Dealing with this BS every day, I hope the EC makes it all worth it...

While it seems increasingly unlikely, it could just be Bioware trying to spin things in the other direction, remember IT popularity is at an all time high.

I don't remember any time that they have directly contradicted it flat-out. Otherwise this whole forum would be full of Anti-IT " I told you so, NYEH!!!"

[Dwailing]

 So, what up my IT peeps? 

[BatmanTurian]

HellishFiend wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

check it. This guy says we're in permanent denial and that:

"The problem with IT is that it has been directly contradicted multiple times by people working on EC/Biowares EC statements."

Dealing with this BS every day, I hope the EC makes it all worth it...

You certainly are a brave soldier traversing the breach, BT.

Fortunately, you can feel a lot better now, because at this point we finally have rock-solid tangible evidence rather than just a bevy of thematic/symbolic evidence.

In my opinion, thematic/symbolic evidence is equally powerful, but thats just me.

In any case, with the addition of this tangible evidence to our case, we can now simply present it to people and watch as they struggle to disregard it without looking like it is they who are in denial. If they do that, you know you can just feel good about walking away.

I know but I'm going to wait until we have a lot more infrasonic findings compiled into one video before throwing it out there.

But yeah, I go out and try to be nice and counter some of the on-the-fence people. Sometimes it works and I make friends. I don't try to influence people, just educate them on their misinformation. I'm trying to be a teacher and not a preacher.

[HellishFiend]

Riot86 wrote...

Just had some quick thought about the "Catalyst" (NOT the Starchild)...

So, despite having the galaxy's best engineers and scientists working on the Crucible, nobody can tell what the missing part called the "Catalyst" actually is. Also, no one knows what the Crucible itself really does. So I guess it is save to assume, that at least some of those brilliant scientists have tried to figure those two things out. So far, so good...I have no problem with this part.

Then the Prothean VI tells you, that the Citadel is the Catalyst....
And suddently it seems to be clear, that we have to attach the Crucible at the backside of the Presidium tower? And of course, it fits perfect...how convienient 


So now I have a question:

Why did not one(!!) of the most brilliant minds in the whole galaxy figure this out before? Wouldn't studiying the plans reveal that the 4 Crucible "arms" have the exact same span as the Presidum Ring's radius? Wouldn't some computer assisted analysis of the blueprints at least point out this "conincidence"? Remember, were not talking about some random space station in the Horsehead Nebula, we're talking about the Centre of the Galactic Community. If the last hope we have in this war has the same scale as the Citadel, I find it VERY hard to believe that nobody found out about this. This makes no friggin sense! :happy:

I'm actually starting to believe, that the whole Prothean VI part on Cronos Station (maybe even the whole mission) was also a hallucination and we still don't know what the Catalyst is.


And this part being a dream would also fit in with one of my favorite aspect of the IT - the hallucination consists of elements from Shepard's memory.

Just look at the ending of Mass Effect 1. We talk to a Prothean VI which tells us, the way to stop the Reapers is to go to the Citadel. To the Presidium Tower to be specific. We also get the info that our adversary (= Saren) is already there. We finally reach the Citadel through the "Conduit".

In Mass Effect 3 we talk to a Prothean VI which tells us the way to stop the Reapers is to bring the Crucible to the Citadel. And dock it at the backside of the Presidium Tower to be specific. We also get the info that our adversary (= TIM) is already there. We finally reach the Citadel through a "Conduit".

Sounds pretty similar to me...

Nice connection there at the end of your post! Chalk up another tick mark in the "Events based on memories" column for the ending sequence. 

I'm still of the opinion that the whole "Crucible + Catalyst = Defeat of the Reapers" thing is very doubtful, but we'll see.

[Dwailing]

Also, @ Bill Casey, did you see that on your poll, Destroy currently has 80% of the votes for best ending?