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Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark II!


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#22101
Andromidius

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UrgentArchengel wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

UrgentArchengel wrote...

Is it me, or do the Anti-IT posts feel like picket signs?


it's not just you. I wish they'd get over themselves. <_<


I already exposed them of there circular logic.  You know:

IT=Stupid and Bad Writing
ME3 Ending=Stupid
ME3=Bad Writing
Anti-IT=IT can't be true.

By their logic, Bad writers would never be capable of bad writing because they are bad writers.  Just like Starbringer.


To be fair, bad fiction can also have bad fanfiction to go with it.

Not that It is fanfiction, but a lot of people seem to think it is.  Which I find bizzare, especially considering how many people use 'head canon' so liberally while defending the literal endings.

#22102
Destructorlio

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Just listening to that podcast with Jennifer Hale... haven't reached the IT question yet, but amusingly, she did say:

Has it only been a month? Wow. You know what's so crazy, that job... crawled up inside of me so hard...I would be inside that universe inside my dreams, because it was like, 7000 lines, session after session. It crawled up inside me, in my subconscious, in my dreams I would be inside that universe and I really... I really got a chance to grow as an actor so much during that session because when you... for six, five years, you grow with them, it's like being on a series for that long, you can take the character to... new depths, new places- an incredible opportunity. I was a little in denial about the end of it. They work so hard.


Not IT related, but I was amused by the dreams bit.

Modifié par Destructorlio, 19 juin 2012 - 01:32 .


#22103
paxxton

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Destructorlio wrote...

Just listening to that podcast with Jennifer Hale... haven't reached the IT question yet, but amusingly, she did say:



Has it only been a month? Wow. You know what's so crazy, that job... crawled up inside of me so hard...I would be inside that universe inside my dreams, because it was like, 7000 lines, session after session. It crawled up inside me, in my subconscious, in my dreams I would be inside that universe and I really... I really got a chance to grow as an actor so much during that session because when you... for six, five years, you grow with them, it's like being on a series for that long, you can take the character to... new depths, new places- an incredible opportunity. I was a little in denial about the end of it. They work so hard.


Not IT related, but I was amused by the dreams bit.

Actually it is IT related. She very much describes how IT was possible. After so many hours people start to live and breath Mass Effect.

Modifié par paxxton, 19 juin 2012 - 01:38 .


#22104
HellishFiend

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Destructorlio wrote...

Just listening to that podcast with Jennifer Hale... haven't reached the IT question yet, but amusingly, she did say:

Has it only been a month? Wow. You know what's so crazy, that job... crawled up inside of me so hard...I would be inside that universe inside my dreams, because it was like, 7000 lines, session after session. It crawled up inside me, in my subconscious, in my dreams I would be inside that universe and I really... I really got a chance to grow as an actor so much during that session because when you... for six, five years, you grow with them, it's like being on a series for that long, you can take the character to... new depths, new places- an incredible opportunity. I was a little in denial about the end of it. They work so hard.


Not IT related, but I was amused by the dreams bit.


Hale seemed just as surprised as anyone to be called back in for the EC, and then she repeatedly flipped out over the NDA stuff she couldnt talk about. If thats not a powerful non-lore related clue, I'm not sure what is. People dont get excited over space magic. 

#22105
RaidShock

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UrgentArchengel wrote...
I already exposed them of there circular logic.  You know:

IT=Stupid and Bad Writing
ME3 Ending=Stupid
ME3=Bad Writing
Anti-IT=IT can't be true.

By their logic, Bad writers would never be capable of bad writing because they are bad writers.  Just like Starbringer.


In fairness, not all people that don't believe in IT, myself included, think that it is stupid. In fact I think it's pretty darn awesome, which is why I lurk/occasionally post in this thread.

Oh and for anyone wondering, Gamble has not responded to my tweet about HellishFiend's video.

#22106
Nightingale

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Wow, I've missed...like 30 pages! Something happen or are we just feeling more talkative today? :P

#22107
HellishFiend

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DrTsoni wrote...

Wow, I've missed...like 30 pages! Something happen or are we just feeling more talkative today? :P


I'll just leave this here:

The Sounds of Possession

#22108
Andromidius

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There was a period of rapid posting earlier. I had to skip 20 pages merely to catch back up :(

#22109
HellishFiend

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RaidShock wrote...
In fairness, not all people that don't believe in IT, myself included, think that it is stupid. In fact I think it's pretty darn awesome, which is why I lurk/occasionally post in this thread.

Oh and for anyone wondering, Gamble has not responded to my tweet about HellishFiend's video.


I wouldnt expect him to. The most I'd hope for is that he forwards it to the amazing sound engineers and storywriters that came up with the idea. 

And by the way, thank you for being amiable with your skepticism regarding IT. Too many others decide to get angry over it and take it out on us, for some reason. 

#22110
paxxton

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Andromidius wrote...

There was a period of rapid posting earlier. I had to skip 20 pages merely to catch back up :(

Good times! Posted Image

#22111
SirLugash

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TJBartlemus wrote...

MaximizedAction wrote...

TJBartlemus wrote...

Okay, was going over the video with the questions about the ending with the lead writers this came up and found that maybe you guys might want to talk about how it affects the IT. I have no idea myself.

http://www.youtube.c...g9KIe0k#t=2678s

Supposedly people on the Citadel survived the explosions.... :blush:


I've never watched this bit of the PAX panel...man, Patrick Weekes goes all panicky explaining how "everything...IS...FINE!!! You got that?"

Might be their time running out, of course...but I still didn't forget how that supposed leak about how Casey and Mac wrote the ending was posted by a user that was supposedly Weekes' account...
so everything is up for...speculations.

But his explaination is still legit. But it still boggles me how noone during the question bit asked the more obvious questions...


Well it looked like the guy in the back who never got to ask his question looked like he had something important. He had a notepad man!!! I think they purposely cut him off....:whistle:

They said before they didn't want to discuss the ending at PAX, so it's no wonder to me that no big questions were asked.
About the Citadel: I find it interesting that he said the Citadel was destroyed in any but the Control ending.
Regardless, he said that there were casualties, most probably in the sections closest to the center of the explosion.

So let's see, there are casualties on the Citadel (as said probably close to the explosion) which are at least protected by kinetic barriers, but yet we are to believe that Shepard survived the explosion in the epicenter ?

I'm really curious what EC will bring up.

---

Anyways, I wanted to thank you guys for your awesome work in this thread.
I wish I had the time to constantly read all the new pages, but unfortunately I can't, therefore my replies to specific parts may come late, like this one:

Some pages ago, there were pictures of the Reaper Fleet shown with the different looking models and that one of them was actually as hologram in the game.
I never realised that, so Kudos to that!
As you all may know, Harby was degraded from a unique Reaper to a crippled Sovereign, therefore I just wanted to post a comparison of his model in ME2 and ME3:

Posted Image

I personally liked his his first model better, it's obviously more distinct and looks really great in the bad ending cutscene in Arrival.

Modifié par SirLugash, 19 juin 2012 - 01:46 .


#22112
Auralius Carolus

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HellishFiend wrote...

Destructorlio wrote...

Just listening to that podcast with Jennifer Hale... haven't reached the IT question yet, but amusingly, she did say:

Has it only been a month? Wow. You know what's so crazy, that job... crawled up inside of me so hard...I would be inside that universe inside my dreams, because it was like, 7000 lines, session after session. It crawled up inside me, in my subconscious, in my dreams I would be inside that universe and I really... I really got a chance to grow as an actor so much during that session because when you... for six, five years, you grow with them, it's like being on a series for that long, you can take the character to... new depths, new places- an incredible opportunity. I was a little in denial about the end of it. They work so hard.


Not IT related, but I was amused by the dreams bit.


Hale seemed just as surprised as anyone to be called back in for the EC, and then she repeatedly flipped out over the NDA stuff she couldnt talk about. If thats not a powerful non-lore related clue, I'm not sure what is. People dont get excited over space magic. 


I wasn't surprised a bit...

Posted Image
Bioware Edmonton, Late March 2012-

"Mr. Hudson, sir! I think you should have a look outside..."
"What is it George? Twitter's on fire, we had to reset our Facebook page and we're doing all we can to keep the peace in the forums!"
"They're right outside! And they have cupcakes..."

Modifié par Auralius Carolus, 19 juin 2012 - 01:48 .


#22113
Andromidius

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HellishFiend wrote...

And by the way, thank you for being amiable with your skepticism regarding IT. Too many others decide to get angry over it and take it out on us, for some reason. 


Seconded.

#22114
FellishBeast

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DrTsoni wrote...

Wow, I've missed...like 30 pages! Something happen or are we just feeling more talkative today? :P


We had a lot of off-topic discussion. I scanned it and saw mostly bragging about high IQ's and how many countries people have been too. Posted Image

#22115
RaidShock

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HellishFiend wrote...
I wouldnt expect him to. The most I'd hope for is that he forwards it to the amazing sound engineers and storywriters that came up with the idea. 

And by the way, thank you for being amiable with your skepticism regarding IT. Too many others decide to get angry over it and take it out on us, for some reason. 


Yeah I mean I was hoping he could have at least confirmed that the presence of infrasound was intentional, but I suppose that would veer too close to a confirmation/denial of IT depending on how he answered.

It's no problem, I like to keep an open mind. I strongly admire the amount of work you guys have put in finding clues and putting evidence together, and there have been more than a few occasions when I've said, "Hmmm..." But at the end of the day, I can't bring myself to believe it's true. I don't really have any evidence, just more of a gut feeling really. But here's to hoping IT is true because you guys deserve a pay off for all the effort you guys have put in(and it would make the game a lot better too)! :)

#22116
Taco Del Marr

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I don't if someone has mentioned this yet, but if Coats is indoctrinated as well as Anderson in a slighter exten,t could the reason Anderson claims he was born in London be a result of him having a memory swap with Coats similiar to the one we see in Mass Effect 2 on the direlect reaper involving the two Cerberus scientists?

#22117
Destructorlio

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UrgentArchengel wrote...

Is it me, or do the Anti-IT posts feel like picket signs?


I can understand not caring about IT... or not being persuaded by the evidence... or being angry about the ending....

But I can't understand being so angry about the idea of IT that you'd come in here just to mindlessly tear at it, without obviously having considered it... I don't understand that.

I had a frustrating encounter with a friend, though. He recently finished the game, was complaining about the ending (as you do), so I said... well, hell, this was on twitter, I can transcript it:

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Me: "How do you feel about INDOCTRINATION THEORY?!?"

Him: "I have no idea what that is."

"There are numerous video that lay it out very comprehensively, but the definitive explanation is here: http://masseffectind...on.blogspot.com I would maintain that no analysis of the ending which does not at least consider IT is deeply flawed."

"This is one of those 'the story you saw was not the REAL story' things, isn't it? You know I don't understand those things."

"I think this is a very interesting data point in our prev conversation* on the issue- how many clues in the text does I think this is a very interesting data point in our prev conversation on the issue- how many clues in the text does it take before you can attribute authorial intent towards a nonliteral meaning? The interesting thing about this case is that we can't know until the EC comes out- but I am placing all my bets on IT being validated come August."

"It's less about authorial intent than about assessing a story solely as a work of fiction without projecting more into it. I fully understand 'I think X would have been a better story', but can't get into 'I think this story was actually X'. Sure, if the DLC develops and reshapes the story, that's interesting - but that's modification, not interpretation. I'm not saying it's 'wrong' to look at stories this way, but it's fundamentally not something I get. But it's cool that you do."

"But that is not what IT is- it is driven entirely by in-game evidence. It maintains this was the intent of the author (Bioware). The beauty of IT is that the EC does not have to modify the ending- it can just lift the veil. Bioware have said they are not going to change the ending, and IT is entirely consistent with the existing ending."

"I tend to apply Occam's Razor. What's likelier - subtle clubs buried in the work to reward the true fans, or just bad writing?"

"In this case, the former is far more likely, especially given the preponderance of in-game evidence."

"I'm all in favour of subtle clues in stories - I'm a big fan of Gene Wolfe - but a good writer reveals the trick at the end. If there are all these IT clues, but the story never admits to them at the end, then that's just another form of bad writing."

"IT maintains that the EC will be the 'prestige', giving everyone time to experience/interpret the ending before the reveal."

"Well, we'll see. I don't really have a problem with the ending either way in terms of story, just in terms of bad storytelling."

"Yes, unfortunately we can only 'know' once the EC is revealed, but I am really enjoying not knowing- its a genuine mystery. In a wikipedia world where you can find the answers to everything, it's nice to have a genuine mystery to puzzle over."

"Hmm. Okay, I get that, but I think that mass-market narratives aren't the best place for such. Better for ARGs and the like. But yeah, okay, that's an interesting point."

------------------------------------------------------------------------

So... the frustrating this about this friend is that he is an author, he is very interested in the craft of writing... but is utterly uninterested in subtext, implication, ambiguity in narrative, metaphor as communication... it's very frustrating to me, because those are the things that interest me most in fiction. He is basically going to dismiss IT because it's not explicit... but that's the point!

*We had an argument about whether or not Irene Adler dies in the latest Sherlock Holmes movie (Game of Shadows)- I maintained that there was some onscreen evidence that she did not- he maintained that it 'didn't matter' whether she did or not, because unless it is EXPLICIT in the text, it cannot be considered.

Modifié par Destructorlio, 19 juin 2012 - 01:49 .


#22118
monrapias

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DrTsoni wrote...

Wow, I've missed...like 30 pages! Something happen or are we just feeling more talkative today? :P

Don't worry about it, I've missed over 800 pages.  Didn't know someone made a new topic after the old one got closed.

#22119
FellishBeast

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Taco Del Marr wrote...

I don't if someone has mentioned this yet, but if Coats is indoctrinated as well as Anderson in a slighter exten,t could the reason Anderson claims he was born in London be a result of him having a memory swap with Coats similiar to the one we see in Mass Effect 2 on the direlect reaper involving the two Cerberus scientists?


Wow! That actually makes sense. Anderson's alzheimers...not alzheimers but indoctrination?

Modifié par FellishBeast, 19 juin 2012 - 01:58 .


#22120
EpyonX3

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paxxton wrote...

This is irrefutable proof that Shepard is indoctrinated. Posted Image

Posted Image


Must learn this tweak NOW!

#22121
paxxton

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SirLugash wrote...

TJBartlemus wrote...

MaximizedAction wrote...

TJBartlemus wrote...

Okay, was going over the video with the questions about the ending with the lead writers this came up and found that maybe you guys might want to talk about how it affects the IT. I have no idea myself.

http://www.youtube.c...g9KIe0k#t=2678s

Supposedly people on the Citadel survived the explosions.... :blush:


I've never watched this bit of the PAX panel...man, Patrick Weekes goes all panicky explaining how "everything...IS...FINE!!! You got that?"

Might be their time running out, of course...but I still didn't forget how that supposed leak about how Casey and Mac wrote the ending was posted by a user that was supposedly Weekes' account...
so everything is up for...speculations.

But his explaination is still legit. But it still boggles me how noone during the question bit asked the more obvious questions...


Well it looked like the guy in the back who never got to ask his question looked like he had something important. He had a notepad man!!! I think they purposely cut him off....:whistle:

They said before they didn't want to discuss the ending at PAX, so it's no wonder to me that no big questions were asked.
About the Citadel: I find it interesting that he said the Citadel was destroyed in any but the Control ending.
Regardless, he said that there were casualties, most probably in the sections closest to the center of the explosion.

So let's see, there are casualties on the Citadel (as said probably close to the explosion) which are at least protected by kinetic barriers, but yet we are to believe that Shepard survived the explosion in the epicenter ?

I'm really curious what EC will bring up.

---

Anyways, I wanted to thank you guys for your awesome work in this thread.
I wish I had the time to constantly read all the new pages, but unfortunately I can't, therefore my replies to specific parts may come late, like this one:

Some pages ago, there were pictures of the Reaper Fleet shown with the different looking models and that one of them was actually as hologram in the game.
I never realised that, so Kudos to that!
As you all may know, Harby was degraded from a unique Reaper to a crippled Sovereign, therefore I just wanted to post a comparison of his model in ME2 and ME3:

Posted Image

Yeah! Patrick Weekes was just making things up. I mentioned that a few weeks ago. The other thing about that panel was what Michael Gamble said about IT. He said they do not want to be prescriptive. Then he wanted to add something and just repeated the word "'prescriptive" because he could admit that IT is true by saying more. The answer to that question was prepared in advance.

Modifié par paxxton, 19 juin 2012 - 01:50 .


#22122
Nightingale

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HellishFiend wrote...

DrTsoni wrote...

Wow, I've missed...like 30 pages! Something happen or are we just feeling more talkative today? :P


I'll just leave this here:

The Sounds of Possession

Ooh you finished it :o
Incredible job, very comprehensive and wonderfully put together. It's a great piece of evidence and I actually didn't know all the details about Coats, so it's not only informative for everyone that already knows/believes the theory, but may be able to convince people on the fence about it too ^_^

#22123
Auralius Carolus

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Taco Del Marr wrote...

I don't if someone has mentioned this yet, but if Coats is indoctrinated as well as Anderson in a slighter exten,t could the reason Anderson claims he was born in London be a result of him having a memory swap with Coats similiar to the one we see in Mass Effect 2 on the direlect reaper involving the two Cerberus scientists?


It's possible. The exact extent of control over an individual is unknown, but the more important question is "Why?"

Anderson has, thus far, proven highly capable as a resistance leader; if there was to be a personality swap, it turned out for the worst.

#22124
Destructorlio

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HellishFiend wrote...

DrTsoni wrote...

Wow, I've missed...like 30 pages! Something happen or are we just feeling more talkative today? :P


I'll just leave this here:

The Sounds of Possession


Required watching and the biggest piece of new IT evidence in... weeks, at least. 

Codex: "Indoctrination is caused by infrasonic sound."

Bioware: "Here's some infrasonic sound in the dreams. Clue here! Big honking clue right here!"

#22125
paxxton

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EpyonX3 wrote...

paxxton wrote...

This is irrefutable proof that Shepard is indoctrinated. Posted Image

*snip*


Must learn this tweak NOW!

I didn't do it but probably you have to change some texture files.

Modifié par paxxton, 19 juin 2012 - 01:53 .