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[Big Bad]

BatmanTurian wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

If he's been around Coats for a signifigant time or around people Coats also indoctrinated, then the Anderson we knew is already dead. If you think about it, the second we found the infrasonic signiture coming off Coats is the moment we should have known that Anderson was already gone. If you think it would ****** of the players... think how much it would ****** off Shepard (providing Shep doesn't become indoctrinated).

Yes, but this entire conversation is based around the point that Anderson's character needs vindication and closure in order to turncoat at the very end of the story.  paxxton seems to be saying that he doesnt think that vindication and closure is necessary in order to use his character that way because it would make sense in the lore.  That's narrative suicide. 

I agree with you. Anderson should attempt to break free again at Shepard's bidding through renegade or paragon but instead of shooting himself, he should hand the gun to Shep and have Shep do it. He's the kind of person who would want a friend to do it instead of cowardly doing it himself like Saren. I think that moment, with Shep in tears having to shoot his mentor while Anderson is still lucid, would be very powerful.

Oh god, just imagine the rage there would be in the forums if that happened.  Implications...problematic.

[monrapias]

Here is a funny little thing.

I'm watching the new season of masterchef, and there is someone called Tali there.

It's a dude though.

Oh sorry that has nothing to do with the topic.

Maybe his parents are indoctrinated so they named him Tali?

Modifié par monrapias, 19 juin 2012 - 03:26 .

[BatmanTurian]

KevShep wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

KevShep wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

KevShep wrote...

DrTsoni wrote...

ZerebusPrime wrote...

Continuing playthrough, just reached second dream. Turned off the music and raised the volume and now I must say...

...those oily shadows are obnoxiously loud (duh, I turned up the volume). Near the end when they gather together around the boy they sound decidedly mechanical. But we know this already.

I noticed that when Liara talks to her father, the writers made a point to remind us of Benezia's description of what it's like to be indoctrinated: hitting on the glass while watching your body act against your will. Very similar to players punching the television sets during the sequence with the Starchild. Yeah, so we think those ten minutes were bad? Imagine Benezia's point of view...

Anyhow, I had a thought. Someone mentioned that Indoctrination may involve nanid(t)es. As I was playing the Tuchanka mission I was once again confronted with the question of what that Reaper destroyer was doing at the Shroud. They stated that the Reapers were using the shroud to poison the atmosphere of the planet, but the question is: poison it with what? If indoctrination can occur through nanotech spores, then it seems to me that the Shroud is a perfect mechanism for rapidly dispensing such spores across the planet.

Very good point. I thought it was a different kind of indoctrination (the difference between being TIM/Saren and a husk) but it's possible that would work the same way. Considering how resiliant the Krogan are, it could take them longer to get indoctrinated and there's several theories floating around about the squadies being indoctrinated, too. There are several opportunities but this makes so much sense, it's actually worrisome.

Also, for some reason the way you worded this post made me giggle

No, indoctrination can not happen with spores. Its a process that is done through the limbic system. The reapers CANT control your thoughts they can only give you suggestions and the more you listen to there suggestions the harder it is to ignore because there will starts to look more and more correct.

The only way they can control your thoughts is with "Direct Control" (like saren had..."implants"). If they are using direct control then they are no longer useing the indoctrination process because indoctrination is about manipulation without direct control.

Actually, nanites are what they use to turn organics into slurpees and they're also used in dragon's teeth and other artifacts to turn organics into husks. So a nanite indoctrination/huskification process does exist.

No the husks by dragons teeth is NOT indoctrination. Its just plain husks.

How are they not indoctrinated if they are being controlled by the Reapers? Husks are the eventuality of EVERY indoctrination.

Husks as more then one meaning. The indoctrinated husks (like the ones on vermire) are in the final stage of functioning and they are nothing but gibbering animals that will stand there and die of starvation. These "husks" are not synthetic at all.

Indoctrination is manipulation through the limbic system. If direct control is used the the process of indoctrination is no longer used on the subject. In the derelict reaper in ME2 the people there were indoctrinated and then they put themselves on dragons teeth. Notice that they were not indoctrinated on dragons teeth as they were still alive. THEN...they were put on dragons teeth.

Okay, I understand.

[BatmanTurian]

Big Bad wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

If he's been around Coats for a signifigant time or around people Coats also indoctrinated, then the Anderson we knew is already dead. If you think about it, the second we found the infrasonic signiture coming off Coats is the moment we should have known that Anderson was already gone. If you think it would ****** of the players... think how much it would ****** off Shepard (providing Shep doesn't become indoctrinated).

Yes, but this entire conversation is based around the point that Anderson's character needs vindication and closure in order to turncoat at the very end of the story.  paxxton seems to be saying that he doesnt think that vindication and closure is necessary in order to use his character that way because it would make sense in the lore.  That's narrative suicide. 

I agree with you. Anderson should attempt to break free again at Shepard's bidding through renegade or paragon but instead of shooting himself, he should hand the gun to Shep and have Shep do it. He's the kind of person who would want a friend to do it instead of cowardly doing it himself like Saren. I think that moment, with Shep in tears having to shoot his mentor while Anderson is still lucid, would be very powerful.

Oh god, just imagine the rage there would be in the forums if that happened.  Implications...problematic.

Yes, it would ****** people off. its a risk you could take in a movie, but not in a game like this. So in the end, Anderson needs some kind of plot armor.

[HellishFiend]

BatmanTurian wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

KevShep wrote...

No the husks by dragons teeth is NOT indoctrination. Its just plain husks.

How are they not indoctrinated if they are being controlled by the Reapers? Husks are the eventuality of EVERY indoctrination.

BT, KevShep is right on this one. By chance, have you read the books? They explore this topic in greater detail compared to the information presented by the games.

I always understood that focused, fast indoctrination produced husks. That was my understanding. but if you guys are right then my bad.

No worries, its not really laid out very well unless you make it a point to study the lore in detail. Roughly put, husks are 100% reaper tech held together by bits of organic tissue. Then you have indoctrinated organics, which are ordinary organics that have their thought processes scrambled remotely so that they do things the Reapers want them to do. In between that you have what is essentially Synthesis. A fully organic body with an intact brain and organs, but enhanced by Reaper tech. There are 2 main levels of synthesis, implant-based and nanide-based. Implant based preserves the organic's ability to think and act mostly on their own (though they are in fact, indoctrinated), while nanide-based allows the Reapers to assume direct control in the manner we see from the Collectors. 

[EpyonX3]

prettz wrote...

question
is the Derelict Reaper aware or is it the equivalent of brain dead?

The Derelict reaper isn't brain dead but it's not aware. I would say it's in a coma.


Example: "A dead God can dream."

Modifié par EpyonX3, 19 juin 2012 - 03:29 .

[BatmanTurian]

monrapias wrote...

Here is a funny little thing.

I'm watching the new season of masterchef, and there is someone called Tali there.

It's a dude though.

Oh sorry that has nothing to do with the topic.

Maybe his parents are indoctrinated so they named him Tali?

or it's a common name somewhere in the world? Taliesin is the closest name I can find on babynames.com and it's Welsh, and the name of some mythical poet in Welsh lore.

Modifié par BatmanTurian, 19 juin 2012 - 03:30 .

[HellishFiend]

paxxton wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

paxxton wrote...

Yes, it would be unpleasant but natural given what indoctrination is. I understand that Anderson in ME series represents "good" but still I can think of this "good" being polluted by "evil" because Anderson is only human. I want ME storytelling to present plausible situations given the lore and Reapers destroying (literally and figuratively) everything is definately something that can happen in that Universe.

Well, that may be your opinion, but no respectable author would ever do that, I assure you. Vindication and closure. Necessary for Anderson's archetype. End of story. 

I agree. But indoctrination is not preventing him from receiving closure and vindication afterwards. Think what could happen if ME was real and you'll understand why it makes sense.

ME is not real. It's not a historical account. It's entertainment... It's not about what makes sense, it's about what entertains... not sure how else to explain it. I'm not a literature professor, I just enjoy it as a hobby. But I'm quite positive that I'm right on this. Yours is a very rare opinion on this issue. 

[monrapias]

BatmanTurian wrote...

monrapias wrote...

Here is a funny little thing.

I'm watching the new season of masterchef, and there is someone called Tali there.

It's a dude though.

Oh sorry that has nothing to do with the topic.

Maybe his parents are indoctrinated so they named him Tali?

or it's a common name somewhere in the world? Taliesin is the closest name I can find on babynames.com and it's Welsh, and the name of some mythical poet in Welsh lore.

It's not a common name here  And I assumed that it was a girls name.

Unless Tali is actually a dude in mass effect? 

[BatmanTurian]

HellishFiend wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

KevShep wrote...

No the husks by dragons teeth is NOT indoctrination. Its just plain husks.

How are they not indoctrinated if they are being controlled by the Reapers? Husks are the eventuality of EVERY indoctrination.

BT, KevShep is right on this one. By chance, have you read the books? They explore this topic in greater detail compared to the information presented by the games.

I always understood that focused, fast indoctrination produced husks. That was my understanding. but if you guys are right then my bad.

No worries, its not really laid out very well unless you make it a point to study the lore in detail. Roughly put, husks are 100% reaper tech held together by bits of organic tissue. Then you have indoctrinated organics, which are ordinary organics that have their thought processes scrambled remotely so that they do things the Reapers want them to do. In between that you have what is essentially Synthesis. A fully organic body with an intact brain and organs, but enhanced by Reaper tech. There are 2 main levels of synthesis, implant-based and nanide-based. Implant based preserves the organic's ability to think and act mostly on their own (though they are in fact, indoctrinated), while nanide-based allows the Reapers to assume direct control in the manner we see from the Collectors. 

okay, thanks for the lore lesson.

[BatmanTurian]

monrapias wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

monrapias wrote...

Here is a funny little thing.

I'm watching the new season of masterchef, and there is someone called Tali there.

It's a dude though.

Oh sorry that has nothing to do with the topic.

Maybe his parents are indoctrinated so they named him Tali?

or it's a common name somewhere in the world? Taliesin is the closest name I can find on babynames.com and it's Welsh, and the name of some mythical poet in Welsh lore.

It's not a common name here  And I assumed that it was a girls name.

Unless Tali is actually a dude in mass effect? 

yeah there are a lot of girl versions with Tali at the beginning but that was the only guy one.

[EpyonX3]

HellishFiend wrote...

paxxton wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

paxxton wrote...

Yes, it would be unpleasant but natural given what indoctrination is. I understand that Anderson in ME series represents "good" but still I can think of this "good" being polluted by "evil" because Anderson is only human. I want ME storytelling to present plausible situations given the lore and Reapers destroying (literally and figuratively) everything is definately something that can happen in that Universe.

Well, that may be your opinion, but no respectable author would ever do that, I assure you. Vindication and closure. Necessary for Anderson's archetype. End of story. 

I agree. But indoctrination is not preventing him from receiving closure and vindication afterwards. Think what could happen if ME was real and you'll understand why it makes sense.

ME is not real. It's not a historical account. It's entertainment... It's not about what makes sense, it's about what entertains... not sure how else to explain it. I'm not a literature professor, I just enjoy it as a hobby. But I'm quite positive that I'm right on this. Yours is a very rare opinion on this issue. 

I have to remember this quote for future discussion.

[TJBartlemus]

Could someone explain this...you know the eyes that glow are a sign of indoctrination at the end of the game and were both Saren/TIM's eyes?? Well when you play as renegade your scars become more pronounced and your eyes start to glow red, but they have the same design as TIM's eyes. What's up with that?

[paxxton]

HellishFiend wrote...

paxxton wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

paxxton wrote...

Yes, it would be unpleasant but natural given what indoctrination is. I understand that Anderson in ME series represents "good" but still I can think of this "good" being polluted by "evil" because Anderson is only human. I want ME storytelling to present plausible situations given the lore and Reapers destroying (literally and figuratively) everything is definately something that can happen in that Universe.

Well, that may be your opinion, but no respectable author would ever do that, I assure you. Vindication and closure. Necessary for Anderson's archetype. End of story. 

I agree. But indoctrination is not preventing him from receiving closure and vindication afterwards. Think what could happen if ME was real and you'll understand why it makes sense.

ME is not real. It's not a historical account. It's entertainment... It's not about what makes sense, it's about what entertains... not sure how else to explain it. I'm not a literature professor, I just enjoy it as a hobby. But I'm quite positive that I'm right on this. Yours is a very rare opinion on this issue. 

I know it's not real but it still can present believable ("real life") situations within the universum.

Anyway, it was your idea that Anderson might be indoctrinated. Now you say he shouldn't or I'm misunderstanding you?

Modifié par paxxton, 19 juin 2012 - 03:34 .

[HellishFiend]

EpyonX3 wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

paxxton wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

paxxton wrote...

Yes, it would be unpleasant but natural given what indoctrination is. I understand that Anderson in ME series represents "good" but still I can think of this "good" being polluted by "evil" because Anderson is only human. I want ME storytelling to present plausible situations given the lore and Reapers destroying (literally and figuratively) everything is definately something that can happen in that Universe.

Well, that may be your opinion, but no respectable author would ever do that, I assure you. Vindication and closure. Necessary for Anderson's archetype. End of story. 

I agree. But indoctrination is not preventing him from receiving closure and vindication afterwards. Think what could happen if ME was real and you'll understand why it makes sense.

ME is not real. It's not a historical account. It's entertainment... It's not about what makes sense, it's about what entertains... not sure how else to explain it. I'm not a literature professor, I just enjoy it as a hobby. But I'm quite positive that I'm right on this. Yours is a very rare opinion on this issue. 

I have to remember this quote for future discussion.

You can quote it out of context if you want, but it's not going to win you any arguments. But then again, you are a literalist, so context is ostensibly one of your weak areas. 

[BatmanTurian]

TJBartlemus wrote...

Could someone explain this...you know the eyes that glow are a sign of indoctrination at the end of the game and were both Saren/TIM's eyes?? Well when you play as renegade your scars become more pronounced and your eyes start to glow red, but they have the same design as TIM's eyes. What's up with that?

They don't have the same design

1) the triangle is upside down

2) there are no tiny reaper cables between the dots.

[Arashi08]

Ok...so I think I MAY have found a hole in the Sound of Possession evidence. the question is, do you all want to hear it? I figure anti-ITers may come forward with this eventually so I wondered if you wanted to hear this from someone who supports IT. granted it is a small hole, but I don't want to get yelled at for just posting it lol

[BatmanTurian]

Arashi08 wrote...

Ok...so I think I MAY have found a hole in the Sound of Possession evidence. the question is, do you all want to hear it? I figure anti-ITers may come forward with this eventually so I wondered if you wanted to hear this from someone who supports IT. granted it is a small hole, but I don't want to get yelled at for just posting it lol

just go for it, we're all friends here and we're all here to seek truth.

Modifié par BatmanTurian, 19 juin 2012 - 03:38 .

[TJBartlemus]

BatmanTurian wrote...

TJBartlemus wrote...

Could someone explain this...you know the eyes that glow are a sign of indoctrination at the end of the game and were both Saren/TIM's eyes?? Well when you play as renegade your scars become more pronounced and your eyes start to glow red, but they have the same design as TIM's eyes. What's up with that?

They don't have the same design

1) the triangle is upside down

2) there are no tiny reaper cables between the dots.

Okay so could that mean anything symbolically? You are the absolute opposite to TIM? But wait that would make no sense cause Renegade shep helps TIM....

[BatmanTurian]

TJBartlemus wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

TJBartlemus wrote...

Could someone explain this...you know the eyes that glow are a sign of indoctrination at the end of the game and were both Saren/TIM's eyes?? Well when you play as renegade your scars become more pronounced and your eyes start to glow red, but they have the same design as TIM's eyes. What's up with that?

They don't have the same design

1) the triangle is upside down

2) there are no tiny reaper cables between the dots.

Okay so could that mean anything symbolically? You are the absolute opposite to TIM? But wait that would make no sense cause Renegade shep helps TIM....

It just means that the cybernetic eyes that Cerberus gave Shep are a different design. I don't think it means anything symbolically. That may be reaching.

[UrgentArchengel]

TJBartlemus wrote...

Could someone explain this...you know the eyes that glow are a sign of indoctrination at the end of the game and were both Saren/TIM's eyes?? Well when you play as renegade your scars become more pronounced and your eyes start to glow red, but they have the same design as TIM's eyes. What's up with that?

The design is technically different.  Renegade Shep's are upside down/inverted compared to Indoct. Eyes.  Kinda reminds me of an inverted cross meaning evil.  It's like Sheps's eyes do a total 180 for no reason unless he's been indoctrinated or something. 

[Nightingale]

TJBartlemus wrote...

Could someone explain this...you know the eyes that glow are a sign of indoctrination at the end of the game and were both Saren/TIM's eyes?? Well when you play as renegade your scars become more pronounced and your eyes start to glow red, but they have the same design as TIM's eyes. What's up with that?

It's the implants that do that, so...I don't know. I actually haven't seen them up-close in ME3, maybe that's just how synthetic eyes look? Or it could be that it's the same sort of thing as TIM and while it doesn't affect Shepard entirely, it's an early sign of indoctrination? Chakwas says something about the scars but I couldn't give you an exact quote.

[BatmanTurian]

DrTsoni wrote...

TJBartlemus wrote...

Could someone explain this...you know the eyes that glow are a sign of indoctrination at the end of the game and were both Saren/TIM's eyes?? Well when you play as renegade your scars become more pronounced and your eyes start to glow red, but they have the same design as TIM's eyes. What's up with that?

It's the implants that do that, so...I don't know. I actually haven't seen them up-close in ME3, maybe that's just how synthetic eyes look? Or it could be that it's the same sort of thing as TIM and while it doesn't affect Shepard entirely, it's an early sign of indoctrination? Chakwas says something about the scars but I couldn't give you an exact quote.

Chakwas said the scars will keep healing if you avoid stress resulting from aggression or something to that extent. Basically in Star Wars terms, if you get dark side points and be a jerk, the scars and your eye implants will start to show.

[TJBartlemus]

BatmanTurian wrote...

TJBartlemus wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

TJBartlemus wrote...

Could someone explain this...you know the eyes that glow are a sign of indoctrination at the end of the game and were both Saren/TIM's eyes?? Well when you play as renegade your scars become more pronounced and your eyes start to glow red, but they have the same design as TIM's eyes. What's up with that?

They don't have the same design

1) the triangle is upside down

2) there are no tiny reaper cables between the dots.

Okay so could that mean anything symbolically? You are the absolute opposite to TIM? But wait that would make no sense cause Renegade shep helps TIM....

It just means that the cybernetic eyes that Cerberus gave Shep are a different design. I don't think it means anything symbolically. That may be reaching.

Yeah, maybe I'm going crazy...just always thought something was up with the eye similarities...

Found another similarity on another playthrough of ME2. Whenever Harbinger took control of a collector the collector burned and when killed became ashes. So in the dreams when the child burns it's Harbinger trying to take control over you??

[HellishFiend]

paxxton wrote...

I know it's not real but it still can present believable ("real life") situations within the universum.

Anyway, it was your idea that Anderson might be indoctrinated. Now you say he shouldn't or I'm misunderstanding you?

Yes, I believe we are still at the misunderstanding stage.

I'll try using an example to see if that helps.

Remember when I said earlier how my video follows a standard narrative flow?

exposition -> rising action -> climax -> conclusion?

Well, characters need a narrative flow just as much as a plot or story. If you indoctrinate Anderson and have him betray Shepard at the end of the story without providing proper closure for his character, you are essentially left with this:

exposition -> rising action -> climax -> falling action

That is no way to end a story, and it is no way to end a character of Anderson's archetype. Look up archetype on wikipedia if you arent familiar with the term. 

Essentially, for an overall story to be entertaining, it cant contain a character of Anderson's archetype that ends with falling action instead of conclusion. 

Does this mean his character can NOT be indoctrinated? Not at all, it just means the author has to finesse or finagle (look up finagle too if you're not familiar with it) some form of closure so that you have:

exposition -> rising action -> climax -> falling action -> conclusion

In the case of ME3, Anderson being used to portray Shepard's willpower serves that purpose well. So like I said when I jumped into this discussion, since Anderson's closure has already been provided on-disc, they can safely indoctrinate him in the EC as long as they do it tastefully. If that closure was not on-disc, I would be very, very doubtful that they would do that to his character, despite the evidence we have to support the idea. 

Does that do a better job of explaining?