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[ThisOneIsPunny]

Turbo_J wrote...

Ha. Blast from the past.

ME1: Eden Prime Debrief

Anderson: "We don't know what information was stored in that beacon. Lost Prothean technology, blueprints for some ancient weapon of mass destruction... Whatever it was Saren took it..."

A thought planted in Sheps subconcious 3 years ago? I can't see it being literal forshadowing. Or maybe Anderson has a crystal ball somewhere.

He mentions it more than once, I think.

It's also funny hearing the audio cues whenever something mysterious or strange happens. I don't think ME2 had that? But then you get up to ME3...

[BatmanTurian]

paxxton wrote...

@Vox Draco: You should put a link in your sig to the ME4 concept you presented some time ago. It was really good. You know, the one about Shepard reliving his life in his twisted mind.

Explain this to me shorthand.

[Bill Casey]

The reaction is definitely more than expected...
The internet completely exploded...

I guarantee they didn't expect charity and cupcakes...

[Turbo_J]

HellishFiend wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

Someone asked me in a PM if I ever have doubts about IT, and I figured you guys might be interested in my response:

Never doubted for more than a few seconds. Anytime I see anything circumstantially "tangible" that lends itself against IT in any way, I remind myself that from a narrative standpoint, IT makes 100% sense. All of the issues that people have with IT are based on non-narrative concerns. IT is quite literally, narrative nirvana. Or in common terms, the best damn storytelling experience ever conveyed through a videogame.

Now, what is Bioware's stance on the issue? Theyre sticking with their "Artistic vision" and "not changing the ending". That screams of narrative being their primary concern. I see that as one of the biggest hints toward IT, but unfortunately many ME players are not connoisseurs of literature, so that sort of hint flies over their head.

But rest assured, as someone that understands and appreciates narrative flow and subtlety, as well as being highly versed in the art of hiding lies within truths using semantics and secret context (dont ask how, lol, its a long, clandestine story), I can essentially promise you that IT is correct.

These are my thoughts down to the letter on IT. IT is narratively viable and the one thing in the series the player has never experienced except from the outside looking in on people who were already indoctrinated. It's capable of turning you against yourself and using your own personality to agree with the Reapers on a Meta level. Why else are there Synthesis and Control threads? Bioware is probably on top of the world knowing their interactive story element experiment accomplished probably more than they ever imagined

Glad to know I'm not the only one that understands it from that angle. :happy:

I think there are quite a few that see it this way, just not many who articulate it well or bother to at all. You know; because of the hate.

[HellishFiend]

HellishFiend wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

Someone asked me in a PM if I ever have doubts about IT, and I figured you guys might be interested in my response:

Never doubted for more than a few seconds. Anytime I see anything circumstantially "tangible" that lends itself against IT in any way, I remind myself that from a narrative standpoint, IT makes 100% sense. All of the issues that people have with IT are based on non-narrative concerns. IT is quite literally, narrative nirvana. Or in common terms, the best damn storytelling experience ever conveyed through a videogame.

Now, what is Bioware's stance on the issue? Theyre sticking with their "Artistic vision" and "not changing the ending". That screams of narrative being their primary concern. I see that as one of the biggest hints toward IT, but unfortunately many ME players are not connoisseurs of literature, so that sort of hint flies over their head.

But rest assured, as someone that understands and appreciates narrative flow and subtlety, as well as being highly versed in the art of hiding lies within truths using semantics and secret context (dont ask how, lol, its a long, clandestine story), I can essentially promise you that IT is correct.

These are my thoughts down to the letter on IT. IT is narratively viable and the one thing in the series the player has never experienced except from the outside looking in on people who were already indoctrinated. It's capable of turning you against yourself and using your own personality to agree with the Reapers on a Meta level. Why else are there Synthesis and Control threads? Bioware is probably on top of the world knowing their interactive story element experiment accomplished probably more than they ever imagined

Glad to know I'm not the only one that understands it from that angle. :happy:

You know, I was thinking more about that last line in your post, and it just made me realize:

 

"On the contrary, we have achieved everything I ever imagined.  ...Almost everything."

A hidden message from Bioware? "...almost everything" alluding to the big reveal. Well played, if so. I'd love to think that's what it is. 

[HellishFiend]

Turbo_J wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

Glad to know I'm not the only one that understands it from that angle. :happy:

I think there are quite a few that see it this way, just not many who articulate it well or bother to at all. You know; because of the hate.

Yes, but it is good to be reminded once in awhile. 

[paxxton]

BatmanTurian wrote...

paxxton wrote...

@Vox Draco: You should put a link in your sig to the ME4 concept you presented some time ago. It was really good. You know, the one about Shepard reliving his life in his twisted mind.

Explain this to me shorthand.

The concept is that Harbinger is still in control of Shepard's mind and induces memories from his past. Shepard is fighting his way through different periods of his life (like the Skyllian Blits or pre-service times) but the memories are twisted, dark-tinted, horrorish, with Reaperish creatures and theReapers themselves. Then at the end Shepard has to fight Harbinger to break free of indoctrination.

Modifié par paxxton, 19 juin 2012 - 05:59 .

[BatmanTurian]

HellishFiend wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

Someone asked me in a PM if I ever have doubts about IT, and I figured you guys might be interested in my response:

Never doubted for more than a few seconds. Anytime I see anything circumstantially "tangible" that lends itself against IT in any way, I remind myself that from a narrative standpoint, IT makes 100% sense. All of the issues that people have with IT are based on non-narrative concerns. IT is quite literally, narrative nirvana. Or in common terms, the best damn storytelling experience ever conveyed through a videogame.

Now, what is Bioware's stance on the issue? Theyre sticking with their "Artistic vision" and "not changing the ending". That screams of narrative being their primary concern. I see that as one of the biggest hints toward IT, but unfortunately many ME players are not connoisseurs of literature, so that sort of hint flies over their head.

But rest assured, as someone that understands and appreciates narrative flow and subtlety, as well as being highly versed in the art of hiding lies within truths using semantics and secret context (dont ask how, lol, its a long, clandestine story), I can essentially promise you that IT is correct.

These are my thoughts down to the letter on IT. IT is narratively viable and the one thing in the series the player has never experienced except from the outside looking in on people who were already indoctrinated. It's capable of turning you against yourself and using your own personality to agree with the Reapers on a Meta level. Why else are there Synthesis and Control threads? Bioware is probably on top of the world knowing their interactive story element experiment accomplished probably more than they ever imagined

Glad to know I'm not the only one that understands it from that angle. :happy:

You know, I was thinking more about that last line in your post, and it just made me realize:

 

"On the contrary, we have achieved everything I ever imagined.  ...Almost everything."

A hidden message from Bioware? "...almost everything" alluding to the big reveal. Well played, if so. I'd love to think that's what it is. 

oh wow.

[Big Bad]

D.Sharrah wrote...

Big Bad wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

Vox Draco wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...
This is an excellent question and personally one I have been hoping to receive an answer to in the EC. Neither ME2 nor 3 clarifies this point. We never receive any evidence to indicate that anyone other than Shepard has ever communicated with Harbinger. To make it further suspicious, rewatch the scene with the Rannoch Reaper and watch how the camera vibrates and pulses when the Reaper is speaking to you. In addition, a character (usually Tali) will walk up behind Shepard during the scene, but the camera is careful to NOT show the Reaper in that shot. The camera never shows anyone but Shepard and the Reaper in the same shot while they are conversing. Could possibly be a hint that the conversation is not happening verbally. 

So...there really isn't any "clarification" yet on this? Not even in the DLCs? When Anderson (or was it Hackett?) announced Harbinger is coming...then how does he know his name, actually? Is Harbinger ever brought up since the end of ME2 up to the end in ME3? I can't remember, but then I played ME3 only once three months ago...

To be fair, they could have gotten the name from Shepard's reports. But then again, according to Vega, the Alliance had a few run ins with the collectors as well so he may have announced it then as well.

Speaking of Vega and the Collectors, I am still confused as hell by the fact that he told Shep that Cerberus had been working with the Collectors back when they were abducting human colonists. Uhhh...what? If this doesn't get explained at some point, I will not be a happy camper.

It wasn't the only example of this given...in the Firewalker DLC, one of the scientists was working with the Collector's- in turn they had promised him that they would not hit the colony where his wife was...when I first heard this in the game, I wondered it it was the same scientist or a similar situation.  People have been know to do all sorts of crazy things when it comes to trying to protect their loved ones...

Yeah, I guess it could be some sort of "desperate times call for desparate actions" situation, but I hope there is some specific explanation provided in thd narrative. As of now, what Vega told me kind of forces me to radically alter my perception of what was going on in ME2.

[Turbo_J]

HellishFiend wrote...

Turbo_J wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

Glad to know I'm not the only one that understands it from that angle. :happy:

I think there are quite a few that see it this way, just not many who articulate it well or bother to at all. You know; because of the hate.

Yes, but it is good to be reminded once in awhile. 

Edit: Context!

Did you see my post on Anderson in ME1. He mentions blueprints for a weapon of mass distruction in the Eden Prime beacon... just an off hand remark, but still. I LOLed.

Modifié par Turbo_J, 19 juin 2012 - 06:10 .

[BatmanTurian]

paxxton wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

paxxton wrote...

@Vox Draco: You should put a link in your sig to the ME4 concept you presented some time ago. It was really good. You know, the one about Shepard reliving his life in his twisted mind.

Explain this to me shorthand.

The concept is that Harbinger is still in control of Shepard's mind and induces memories from his past. Shepard is fighting his way through different periods of his life (like the Skyllian Blits or pre-service times) but the memories are twisted, dark-tinted, horrorish, with Reaperish creatures and theReapers themselves. Then at the end Shepard has to fight Harbinger to break free of indoctrination.

Ah so a way to make a prequel but also include the Reapers. nice.

[Vox Draco]

BatmanTurian wrote...

paxxton wrote...

@Vox Draco: You should put a link in your sig to the ME4 concept you presented some time ago. It was really good. You know, the one about Shepard reliving his life in his twisted mind.

Explain this to me shorthand.

Actually not my thoughts on a possible ME4, yet merely a possible expansion of ME3...

A focal point of IT is the "choose destroy to free yourself from indoctrination"-element. I have no problems with Shepard waking up from the rubble in London and continue the fight, but jsut because she shot a tube in a dream? I think it should be harder, and more interesting. A true battle in Shepard's mind, and the destroy-option is only the first step in the right direction.
Just imagine: After you shot the tube and have endured the nonsensical Normandy-chase you wake up. No, not in London, and you don't "really" wake up.
You are on the colony of Mindoir. Or in the slums on Earth. Or on an Alliance Starship/Spacestation. And as a younger version of Shepard (or if this is technically impossible, and because it is still a "dream", keep your Shepard as old as s/he is, would only add to the surrealism) you fight your way through a distorted, twisted version of your past, depending on your shepard's background.
I could see two or three "chapters" until you broke free:
First your early past, mostly without any combat, but more dialogue, more interaction and avoiding conflict, or using renegade/paragon-interrupts when violence is needed, or a quick escape.
On Mindoir, you witness the atrocities of the Batarian slavers, see how your people are killed and abducted, you feel the helplessness of your Shepard as all s/he can do is stay alive. And all of this with a Reaper-twist, like huskified Batarians instead of real ones, or something like this.
On Earth, you would be confronted with crime, gang-fights and survival at the bottom of society.
On the Alliance Spaceship, I could see something like a training-ground where you practice for future Alliance-memebership, to make your parents etc proud, and you are confronted with all the pressure that is laid upon Shepard shoulders. And I would love to see Hannah Shepard in person for the first time...though in a nightmarish version, like a Banshee...
Next chapter: More combat-oriented, as we would join Shepard in her/his assignments that cemented his/her reputation...
You fight in the Skyllian Blitz.
You try to survive the terrible onslaught of the Thresher-Maws on Akuze
You infiltrate and sacrifice your entire squad to destroy the Batarian Base on Torfan
A last chapter could be the same for any Shepard. A mission from ME1 would be cool. Maybe the suicide mission on Virmire, though this time you are confronted with different/altered results and choices to make (your LI might play a major role here...)
The point of all this would be to have Shepard really fight her way out of indoctrination. All chapters would force you to make decisions, and the Reapers would try their best to lure you away from your path. You would have to stick to your goals, and be true to your paragon/renegade self (though, to be fair, this would only make the final confrontation easier, but not impossible if you make some "wrong" decisions...)

[EpyonX3]

paxxton wrote...


LOL. You have a sense of humor.

@TSA_383: Great PC. 2nd place, WOW.
Have your neighbors reported any power shortages yet?

Paxxton I'm surprised at you. Of couse I have a sense of humor.

[Turbo_J]

Big Bad wrote...

D.Sharrah wrote...

Big Bad wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

Vox Draco wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...
This is an excellent question and personally one I have been hoping to receive an answer to in the EC. Neither ME2 nor 3 clarifies this point. We never receive any evidence to indicate that anyone other than Shepard has ever communicated with Harbinger. To make it further suspicious, rewatch the scene with the Rannoch Reaper and watch how the camera vibrates and pulses when the Reaper is speaking to you. In addition, a character (usually Tali) will walk up behind Shepard during the scene, but the camera is careful to NOT show the Reaper in that shot. The camera never shows anyone but Shepard and the Reaper in the same shot while they are conversing. Could possibly be a hint that the conversation is not happening verbally. 

So...there really isn't any "clarification" yet on this? Not even in the DLCs? When Anderson (or was it Hackett?) announced Harbinger is coming...then how does he know his name, actually? Is Harbinger ever brought up since the end of ME2 up to the end in ME3? I can't remember, but then I played ME3 only once three months ago...

To be fair, they could have gotten the name from Shepard's reports. But then again, according to Vega, the Alliance had a few run ins with the collectors as well so he may have announced it then as well.

Speaking of Vega and the Collectors, I am still confused as hell by the fact that he told Shep that Cerberus had been working with the Collectors back when they were abducting human colonists. Uhhh...what? If this doesn't get explained at some point, I will not be a happy camper.

It wasn't the only example of this given...in the Firewalker DLC, one of the scientists was working with the Collector's- in turn they had promised him that they would not hit the colony where his wife was...when I first heard this in the game, I wondered it it was the same scientist or a similar situation.  People have been know to do all sorts of crazy things when it comes to trying to protect their loved ones...

Yeah, I guess it could be some sort of "desperate times call for desparate actions" situation, but I hope there is some specific explanation provided in thd narrative. As of now, what Vega told me kind of forces me to radically alter my perception of what was going on in ME2.

It was all part of the cycle splinter group setup. I touched on this 30-40 pages back but it was ignored. Cerberus has unknowingly been doing the bidding of the Reapers for decades. However, it's much more evident during the ME-ME3 timeline.

It's an organic algorithm of sorts, ala Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy.

[BatmanTurian]

Vox Draco wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

paxxton wrote...

@Vox Draco: You should put a link in your sig to the ME4 concept you presented some time ago. It was really good. You know, the one about Shepard reliving his life in his twisted mind.

Explain this to me shorthand.

Actually not my thoughts on a possible ME4, yet merely a possible expansion of ME3...

A focal point of IT is the "choose destroy to free yourself from indoctrination"-element. I have no problems with Shepard waking up from the rubble in London and continue the fight, but jsut because she shot a tube in a dream? I think it should be harder, and more interesting. A true battle in Shepard's mind, and the destroy-option is only the first step in the right direction.
Just imagine: After you shot the tube and have endured the nonsensical Normandy-chase you wake up. No, not in London, and you don't "really" wake up.
You are on the colony of Mindoir. Or in the slums on Earth. Or on an Alliance Starship/Spacestation. And as a younger version of Shepard (or if this is technically impossible, and because it is still a "dream", keep your Shepard as old as s/he is, would only add to the surrealism) you fight your way through a distorted, twisted version of your past, depending on your shepard's background.
I could see two or three "chapters" until you broke free:
First your early past, mostly without any combat, but more dialogue, more interaction and avoiding conflict, or using renegade/paragon-interrupts when violence is needed, or a quick escape.
On Mindoir, you witness the atrocities of the Batarian slavers, see how your people are killed and abducted, you feel the helplessness of your Shepard as all s/he can do is stay alive. And all of this with a Reaper-twist, like huskified Batarians instead of real ones, or something like this.
On Earth, you would be confronted with crime, gang-fights and survival at the bottom of society.
On the Alliance Spaceship, I could see something like a training-ground where you practice for future Alliance-memebership, to make your parents etc proud, and you are confronted with all the pressure that is laid upon Shepard shoulders. And I would love to see Hannah Shepard in person for the first time...though in a nightmarish version, like a Banshee...
Next chapter: More combat-oriented, as we would join Shepard in her/his assignments that cemented his/her reputation...
You fight in the Skyllian Blitz.
You try to survive the terrible onslaught of the Thresher-Maws on Akuze
You infiltrate and sacrifice your entire squad to destroy the Batarian Base on Torfan
A last chapter could be the same for any Shepard. A mission from ME1 would be cool. Maybe the suicide mission on Virmire, though this time you are confronted with different/altered results and choices to make (your LI might play a major role here...)
The point of all this would be to have Shepard really fight her way out of indoctrination. All chapters would force you to make decisions, and the Reapers would try their best to lure you away from your path. You would have to stick to your goals, and be true to your paragon/renegade self (though, to be fair, this would only make the final confrontation easier, but not impossible if you make some "wrong" decisions...)

I like this as possible post-ending DLC.

[HellishFiend]

Turbo_J wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

Turbo_J wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

Glad to know I'm not the only one that understands it from that angle. :happy:

I think there are quite a few that see it this way, just not many who articulate it well or bother to at all. You know; because of the hate.

Yes, but it is good to be reminded once in awhile. 

Edit: Context!

Did you see my post on Anderson in ME1. He mentions blueprints for a weapon of mass distruction in the Eden Prime beacon... just an off hand remark, but still. I LOLed.

Yeah, I did see that, and I'd like to believe that too! Gives me hope that this was all truly planned out from the beginning. 

[D.Sharrah]

Destroy

Synthetics v Organics
Sacrifice

Geth v Quarians
Genophage Cure

Synthesis

Transhumanism
"Diversity vs. Absolute Unity"
Sacrifice

Shep's Implants
EDI's Evolution
Genophage Cure

Control

Sacrifice
Synthetics v Organics
"Diversity vs Absolute Unity"

Geth v Quarians
"The Splinter Group" (Cerberus/Prothean Splinter)

That's what I have so far...

[HellishFiend]

 BT, I need to thank you. That one line of your post, and the resulting idea I had from it, just gave me another absolutely fantastic idea for my video. Thank you! 

[BatmanTurian]

HellishFiend wrote...

Turbo_J wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

Turbo_J wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

Glad to know I'm not the only one that understands it from that angle. :happy:

I think there are quite a few that see it this way, just not many who articulate it well or bother to at all. You know; because of the hate.

Yes, but it is good to be reminded once in awhile. 

Edit: Context!

Did you see my post on Anderson in ME1. He mentions blueprints for a weapon of mass distruction in the Eden Prime beacon... just an off hand remark, but still. I LOLed.

Yeah, I did see that, and I'd like to believe that too! Gives me hope that this was all truly planned out from the beginning. 

Actually, isn't it like they're all talking about Saren in the amabassador's office and Tali reveals Saren and Benezia talking about the Conduit and Anderson theorizes that the conduit could be a weapon when it turns out it's just a back door to the citadel?

[HellishFiend]

D.Sharrah wrote...

Destroy

Synthetics v Organics
Sacrifice

Geth v Quarians
Genophage Cure

Synthesis

Transhumanism
"Diversity vs. Absolute Unity"
Sacrifice

Shep's Implants
EDI's Evolution
Genophage Cure

Control

Sacrifice
Synthetics v Organics
"Diversity vs Absolute Unity"

Geth v Quarians
"The Splinter Group" (Cerberus/Prothean Splinter)

That's what I have so far...

Excellent! Thank you!  

Here is a repost of my request for anyone that missed it:

Guys, if anyone would like to jump into the credits for my upcoming video, help me out a bit with this. This is a deep question that requires some thought to be put into the answer, so dont expect an easy-in. 

Ready? Here goes:

List what are, in your opinion, the primary subplots and themes in ME3 (specifically, with regard to the context of IT).
Next, link those subplots to their corresponding theme.
Finally, link those themes to their corresponding decision chamber choice (all 3 of them). 

I'm thinking we should have at least 1 or 2 subplots per theme, and 1 or 2 themes per decision chamber choice.

You dont have to provide every single one, but you have to come up with one I havent already thought of to get credit in the video, so please, the more you can come up with, the better! 

[paxxton]

Proof of the Galactic Intoxication Theory:

Modifié par paxxton, 19 juin 2012 - 06:20 .

[BatmanTurian]

HellishFiend wrote...

 BT, I need to thank you. That one line of your post, and the resulting idea I had from it, just gave me another absolutely fantastic idea for my video. Thank you! 

um thanks. Glad you liked it. Didn't even realize it would be that relevant!

[TJBartlemus]

Sup guys!! What have I missed??

[HellishFiend]

BatmanTurian wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

 BT, I need to thank you. That one line of your post, and the resulting idea I had from it, just gave me another absolutely fantastic idea for my video. Thank you! 

um thanks. Glad you liked it. Didn't even realize it would be that relevant!

The thing is, I loved that line from TIM. Martin Sheen is the man. 
"On the contrary, we have achieved everything I ever imagined.  ...Almost everything."

Such an awesome line. Even just in the context of the story. But when you said something very similar to that line, but in the context of Bioware, I was like.... OH SNAP! 

Modifié par HellishFiend, 19 juin 2012 - 06:18 .

[Turbo_J]

D.Sharrah wrote...

Destroy

Synthetics v Organics
Sacrifice

Geth v Quarians
Genophage Cure

Synthesis

Transhumanism
"Diversity vs. Absolute Unity"
Sacrifice

Shep's Implants
EDI's Evolution
Genophage Cure

Control

Sacrifice
Synthetics v Organics
"Diversity vs Absolute Unity"

Geth v Quarians
"The Splinter Group" (Cerberus/Prothean Splinter)

That's what I have so far...

Good so far. You could add in the Batarian Slavers to control. Some of the worst offenders. Slavery in general pops up and most of the time is shown as reprehensible.

EDIs evolution also falls under Destroy as Starbinger claims all Synthetic tech will be destroyed.

Biodiversity vs. Uniformity argument backed up by Javik on cultural and doctrine differences being advantages. Synthesis causes stagnation and is counter to evolution.