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Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark II!


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#22876
BatmanTurian

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HellishFiend wrote...

MaximizedAction wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

Guys, I'm behind on the thread since I'm working on the video, but I just realized something that I had to share. I'm still at the conceptualizing and storyboarding phase of my video, and mulling over subplots and themes (please PM me any ideas you have or post in the discussion board thread!), and I realized something about the Mordin/Genophage/Salarian/Krogan arc.

Which theme does that subplot arc fall under?

Control vs Freedom.

Salarians basically used Control on the Krogan, causing a massively depressing and regrettable storyline arc for the Krogan.

Now look at Mordin and the Salarians.

Mordin in ME2 is a character of deep insight and morals. One could say he symbolizes the better judgement of the organic perspective against the concept of Synthesis at some points, and the better judgement of the Freedom of growth over the Control of uplifting races.

Now look at ME3. The Salarians are continuing to make mistakes, trying to uplift races, only to have the Yahg literally burst out of their cages and wreak havoc. The Dalatrass is a complete tool. Now Mordin? He represents the voice of conscience for the Salarians, and sacrifices himself in the name of Freedom over Control.

That is some DEEP and subtle symbolism, there, folks. Blows my mind.


Reposting for new page. Good read!  Anyway, back to work.... ;)


And it involves an elevator. Great symbolism, indeed.


Indeed, and the absolutely best part about it?

"I MADE A MISTAKE!"

When do you hear that line? If you pick Renegade option, encouraging Control.

Mind blown. 


Wow, I didn't even think of that connection. The story is really deep if you analyze it with an open mind and a lit. student's lens.

#22877
Andromidius

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SubAstris wrote...
I think the Catalyst used the kid image because: 1) He is familiar 2) He is a fairly "neutral" character in the respect that we don't really know his backstory or allegiance, he is "the representation of people on Earth".


And not for a more obvious reasons, for emotional sympathy?  Take the form of a poor defenseless innocent boy to get the big bad soldier who wants to kill all synthetics to listen to him?

Yeah, its obvious he's doing it to be deceptive.

And the fact he's taking the same form of the boy Shepard saw and kept dreaming about shows the Catalyst is playing Shepard's emotions like a champ.  And at the very least can mind read*.

*Unless there's a convoluted plot where the Reaper Destroyer was recording when it killed the boy, took a picture of the boy before he got onto the ship, and then plotted Shepard's line of sight and facial expression to see how badly he reacted to seeing the boy get killed before relaying that information to the Catalyst.  Who then made a perfect holographic copy to use if Shepard ever came face to face with him, and the fact he dreamed about him is a complete coincidence.  Yeah, that's believable.

#22878
Andromidius

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estebanus wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

FellishBeast wrote...

Okay I searched for this link de la estebanus, and since I have internet balls, I didn't expect anything to affect me. But #@!$# @!#$ #$#$! @ #@!!@#&$^*( (*% $#&*!^#@&!^#%^&*$*(@^!#&*^(@^$!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

NOT cool.


We told you not to do it.

also Estebanus's brother did it, so don't hold Estebanus accountable.



Well, it's also my fault because I forgot to log myself out when I went to the phone...


If that's true, your brother needs to grow up or find a hobby.  Waiting until you leave the computer to quickly jump on and post things seems a very boring existance to have.

#22879
MaximizedAction

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FellishBeast wrote...

MaximizedAction wrote...

Rather keep talking about flash games an banshee camel-toes?


Not at all...but I have no idea what you're talking about up there.


Back in the old thread there has been some speculations about the meaning of the ending and RGB as in red/green/blue. One intuitive interpretation was pixels. And as someone else pointed out, we see a hell of a lot of monitors, GUIs throughout ME3. And as an effect, BW made them decompose into red/green/blue on the sides. The difference to the previous games, here they are nearly everywhere and those RGB sides are also heavily accentuated.

For example, look at the consoles in these two pics:

Posted Image
Look at the right border of that small console on Garrus' left.

Posted Image
Here, it's that text, that isn't white, but a mix of the RGB colors. This is from the Jacob mission on Callix.

On Callix, it was the most extreme in my opinion. Depending on the angle you watch the consoles, you get to see the three colors seperately extremely well.

I didn't notice that anywhere during the scenes, EXCEPT on consoles.
So, me wonders, why do we see the same thing happen on bright white spots (my screenshot) during the final cinematics, which aren't supposed to be consoles.

Or are they...

#22880
BatmanTurian

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SubAstris wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

God, I knew SubAstris would come into this thread and the first thing out of his mouth when looking at the infrasonic video would be " PTSD". God, you are so predictable, SA.

Even when shown compelling evidence, You go purposefully obtuse, ignore the evidence, and just end up looking like you're in denial. This is why I don't have debates with you anymore. You ignore whatever's in front of you and refuse to concede evidence.


I am debating the evidence, not ignoring it, just because I don't agree with some of the conclusions made doesn't mean I am actively evading it. You better have a look at my comments again if you truly think I have evaded the evidence. Your definition of "compelling" must be different to mine. Feel free to say where I have gone so desperately wrong.

Furthermore, I don't even remember bringing up "PTSD", I'm pretty sure it was someone else

Yeah it was Raistlin. Apologies.

However, your answer to this evidence, which is tangible, ( we can see the results, where it happens, why it happens, how much more work would be involved to create it despite players never going to hear it) is speculations about the kid based on a misinterpretation of the Final Hours app. It's a weak counterpoint and an example of your inability to concede and judge evidence based on its merits.


A misinterpretation? How so exactll?


Kid is the representitive of earth. You can't say Bioware lied about the game, then believe some random thing about the kid that they also said. We can't pick and choose when Bioware is telling the truth which is why we use evidence from the game.  We know the kid is more than a representive of Earth. Why else would the Catalyst take its form to manipulate your emotions?

Point is, Infrasonic noise that we wouldn't even be able to play on our speakers was put into the game in places related to reapers and possible indoctrination. Infrasonic noise, which is silent, is what is used by Reapers in their Indoctrination. That's solid.


Where exactly did I say BW lied about the game, and even if I did, what makes you think that everything they said is a lie? Why in that case even believe they are making an EC?

I think the Catalyst used the kid image because: 1) He is familiar 2) He is a fairly "neutral" character in the respect that we don't really know his backstory or allegiance, he is "the representation of people on Earth". As this "neutral" character, he is thus able to deliver his information in a way which he can be heard and not prejudiced, because tbh what he says is shocking and not really that nice to hear. I think I would have found it odd if someone like Anderson was the form adopted by the Catalyst, mainly because he is such a big character, while the Catalyst needs to find his own niche and character within the story. IMO The Catalyst operates as a messenger-like character, resolving the plot at the end, not convincingly but nonetheless he does it, instead of extending it.
. (In fact you can quite reasonably make the argument that the Catalyst, if he is an agent of indoctrination, would against work itself because it would remind Shepard of all the atrocities and deaths, including the child's, at the hands of the Reapers, thus strengthening his resolve to destroy them)

As for the infrasounds, I have very little knowledge when it comes to music in games, how they are created etc, and have no idea if it is common in other games as well. It would be interesting if it could be shown that whenever the Reapers or apparent signs of indoctrination come about, such as all through the dream sequence and all through the ending sequence. Instead what I appear to see, is people showing evidence for infrasound at a time when there are big noises on the screen anyway, which seems far from conclusive


Someone want to jump in here? SubAstris gives me an ulcer very quickly. Certainly not intentionally, I'm sure.


You seem to be very reluctant to answer. If you don't agree, then simply say "I don't agree", don't just try and slander me instead


No, it's just how you misinterpret, likely not on purpose at my most optimistic and forgiving, what I say and then I have to explain what I said all over again along with why I believe you are wrong again. It makes me sigh deeply with frustration.

#22881
D.Sharrah

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HellishFiend wrote...

Guys, I'm behind on the thread since I'm working on the video, but I just realized something that I had to share. I'm still at the conceptualizing and storyboarding phase of my video, and mulling over subplots and themes (please PM me any ideas you have or post in the discussion board thread!), and I realized something about the Mordin/Genophage/Salarian/Krogan arc.

Which theme does that subplot arc fall under?

Control vs Freedom.

Salarians basically used Control on the Krogan, causing a massively depressing and regrettable storyline arc for the Krogan.

Now look at Mordin and the Salarians.

Mordin in ME2 is a character of deep insight and morals. One could say he symbolizes the better judgement of the organic perspective against the concept of Synthesis at some points, and the better judgement of the Freedom of growth over the Control of uplifting races.

Now look at ME3. The Salarians are continuing to make mistakes, trying to uplift races, only to have the Yahg literally burst out of their cages and wreak havoc. The Dalatrass is a complete tool. Now Mordin? He represents the voice of conscience for the Salarians, and sacrifices himself in the name of Freedom over Control.

That is some DEEP and subtle symbolism, there, folks. Blows my mind.


I think "Sacrifice" works really well for that arc as well...You can sacrifice all of the following things during that arc (covering ME 1 through 3); Saren's cure, Wrex, the genophage data, Maelon, Eve, Mordin, the future of the Krogan species/the cure, the support of the Dalatross...please let me know if I missed anything.

#22882
FellishBeast

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SubAstris wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

God, I knew SubAstris would come into this thread and the first thing out of his mouth when looking at the infrasonic video would be " PTSD". God, you are so predictable, SA.

Even when shown compelling evidence, You go purposefully obtuse, ignore the evidence, and just end up looking like you're in denial. This is why I don't have debates with you anymore. You ignore whatever's in front of you and refuse to concede evidence.


I am debating the evidence, not ignoring it, just because I don't agree with some of the conclusions made doesn't mean I am actively evading it. You better have a look at my comments again if you truly think I have evaded the evidence. Your definition of "compelling" must be different to mine. Feel free to say where I have gone so desperately wrong.

Furthermore, I don't even remember bringing up "PTSD", I'm pretty sure it was someone else

Yeah it was Raistlin. Apologies.

However, your answer to this evidence, which is tangible, ( we can see the results, where it happens, why it happens, how much more work would be involved to create it despite players never going to hear it) is speculations about the kid based on a misinterpretation of the Final Hours app. It's a weak counterpoint and an example of your inability to concede and judge evidence based on its merits.


A misinterpretation? How so exactll?


Kid is the representitive of earth. You can't say Bioware lied about the game, then believe some random thing about the kid that they also said. We can't pick and choose when Bioware is telling the truth which is why we use evidence from the game.  We know the kid is more than a representive of Earth. Why else would the Catalyst take its form to manipulate your emotions?

Point is, Infrasonic noise that we wouldn't even be able to play on our speakers was put into the game in places related to reapers and possible indoctrination. Infrasonic noise, which is silent, is what is used by Reapers in their Indoctrination. That's solid.


Where exactly did I say BW lied about the game, and even if I did, what makes you think that everything they said is a lie? Why in that case even believe they are making an EC?

I think the Catalyst used the kid image because: 1) He is familiar 2) He is a fairly "neutral" character in the respect that we don't really know his backstory or allegiance, he is "the representation of people on Earth". As this "neutral" character, he is thus able to deliver his information in a way which he can be heard and not prejudiced, because tbh what he says is shocking and not really that nice to hear. I think I would have found it odd if someone like Anderson was the form adopted by the Catalyst, mainly because he is such a big character, while the Catalyst needs to find his own niche and character within the story. IMO The Catalyst operates as a messenger-like character, resolving the plot at the end, not convincingly but nonetheless he does it, instead of extending it.
. (In fact you can quite reasonably make the argument that the Catalyst, if he is an agent of indoctrination, would against work itself because it would remind Shepard of all the atrocities and deaths, including the child's, at the hands of the Reapers, thus strengthening his resolve to destroy them)

As for the infrasounds, I have very little knowledge when it comes to music in games, how they are created etc, and have no idea if it is common in other games as well. It would be interesting if it could be shown that whenever the Reapers or apparent signs of indoctrination come about, such as all through the dream sequence and all through the ending sequence. Instead what I appear to see, is people showing evidence for infrasound at a time when there are big noises on the screen anyway, which seems far from conclusive


Someone want to jump in here? SubAstris gives me an ulcer very quickly. Certainly not intentionally, I'm sure.


You seem to be very reluctant to answer. If you don't agree, then simply say "I don't agree", don't just try and slander me instead


If you look at the kid from the beginning of the game, I think it is pretty clear that he was never real, which means he isn't the Catalyst.

In response to what you said about the kid being a poor choice of indoctrination avatar, I disagree. The child doesn't anger Shepard and strengthen his resolve, it weakens him. It shows him that he can't beat the Reapers, and that their victory is inevitable, which then makes the hologram's offer at the end seem like a miracle, that he can actually end the war with a mutual victory.

#22883
Nightingale

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HellishFiend wrote...

Guys, I'm behind on the thread since I'm working on the video, but I just realized something that I had to share. I'm still at the conceptualizing and storyboarding phase of my video, and mulling over subplots and themes (please PM me any ideas you have or post in the discussion board thread!), and I realized something about the Mordin/Genophage/Salarian/Krogan arc.

Which theme does that subplot arc fall under?

Control vs Freedom.

Salarians basically used Control on the Krogan, causing a massively depressing and regrettable storyline arc for the Krogan.

Now look at Mordin and the Salarians.

Mordin in ME2 is a character of deep insight and morals. One could say he symbolizes the better judgement of the organic perspective against the concept of Synthesis at some points, and the better judgement of the Freedom of growth over the Control of uplifting races.

Now look at ME3. The Salarians are continuing to make mistakes, trying to uplift races, only to have the Yahg literally burst out of their cages and wreak havoc. The Dalatrass is a complete tool. Now Mordin? He represents the voice of conscience for the Salarians, and sacrifices himself in the name of Freedom over Control.

That is some DEEP and subtle symbolism, there, folks. Blows my mind.


Sorry, got distracted by lunch :P
That actually is a nice catch. The themes of the end were present throughtout most of the game, but I hadn't thought of it like that. It's especially well done when you think that Mordin wants to cure the genophage now because he believes it's wrong, when at the time he altered it he believed that he was doing the right thing, the best choice at the time. Paragon was always doing the "right" thing, or what Shepard believed to be the right thing, anyway. The Control ending is the "paragon" choice and seems to be the best choice: sacrifice yourself to control the Reapers and the Geth/EDI get to live, while everyone else (Reapers excluded, obviously) maintain their individuality and freedom. And, if things get out of control, you could always start the cycle all over again. The same could be said for the genophage; if the Krogan got out of control again, the would have just altered the genophage again/more.
So who's to say that just because it seems to be the right choice now, further down the line Shepard wouldn't think it was a mistake? You know, when s/he ends up realizing it was a Reaper trap and they're not indoctrinated.

Edit: Typo :pinched:

Modifié par DrTsoni, 19 juin 2012 - 09:58 .


#22884
FellishBeast

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MaximizedAction wrote...

FellishBeast wrote...

MaximizedAction wrote...

Rather keep talking about flash games an banshee camel-toes?


Not at all...but I have no idea what you're talking about up there.


Back in the old thread there has been some speculations about the meaning of the ending and RGB as in red/green/blue. One intuitive interpretation was pixels. And as someone else pointed out, we see a hell of a lot of monitors, GUIs throughout ME3. And as an effect, BW made them decompose into red/green/blue on the sides. The difference to the previous games, here they are nearly everywhere and those RGB sides are also heavily accentuated.

For example, look at the consoles in these two pics:

Posted Image
Look at the right border of that small console on Garrus' left.

Posted Image
Here, it's that text, that isn't white, but a mix of the RGB colors. This is from the Jacob mission on Callix.

On Callix, it was the most extreme in my opinion. Depending on the angle you watch the consoles, you get to see the three colors seperately extremely well.

I didn't notice that anywhere during the scenes, EXCEPT on consoles.
So, me wonders, why do we see the same thing happen on bright white spots (my screenshot) during the final cinematics, which aren't supposed to be consoles.

Or are they...



Oooh, I see. Very interesting. I only noticed the RGB on one of the circled areas on that other pic, so that's why it confused me.

I'm not sure if this means anything, but it's definitely a good find. I guess if it lined up with IT, it would imply that the ending wasn't in Shepard's head, but rather in some sort of virtual reality, correct?

#22885
paxxton

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LOL. Something similar to Gamer Poop:

Modifié par paxxton, 19 juin 2012 - 09:59 .


#22886
MaximizedAction

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@paxxton. Of course I noticed, that you commented on it. :)

FellishBeast wrote...

Oooh, I see. Very interesting. I only noticed the RGB on one of the circled areas on that other pic, so that's why it confused me.

I'm not sure if this means anything, but it's definitely a good find. I guess if it lined up with IT, it would imply that the ending wasn't in Shepard's head, but rather in some sort of virtual reality, correct?


...for example, yes.

That is my claim, that without assuming it to be a hallucination, yet, these RGBs on the circled spots indicate something uncommon in the visualisation of reality.

And this is just a claim. So if anyone can disprove it by showing a scene where 'real world' events also have this effect, then be my guest. ;)

Modifié par MaximizedAction, 19 juin 2012 - 10:03 .


#22887
estebanus

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Andromidius wrote...

estebanus wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

FellishBeast wrote...

Okay I searched for this link de la estebanus, and since I have internet balls, I didn't expect anything to affect me. But #@!$# @!#$ #$#$! @ #@!!@#&$^*( (*% $#&*!^#@&!^#%^&*$*(@^!#&*^(@^$!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

NOT cool.


We told you not to do it.

also Estebanus's brother did it, so don't hold Estebanus accountable.



Well, it's also my fault because I forgot to log myself out when I went to the phone...


If that's true, your brother needs to grow up or find a hobby.  Waiting until you leave the computer to quickly jump on and post things seems a very boring existance to have.



meh, my brother is a scientist, so I guess that's something exciting.

The reason he's here is because he, my sister and I are going to visit my grandparents in the USA next week.

I think he just saw I wasn't there, and decided to be a little "funny." Thing is, his sense of humor was always a little... weird, and he likes scaring people. A lot. Seriously, you can't go around in my home without expecting him to lure around each corner!

Modifié par estebanus, 19 juin 2012 - 10:05 .


#22888
Turbo_J

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D.Sharrah wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

Guys, I'm behind on the thread since I'm working on the video, but I just realized something that I had to share. I'm still at the conceptualizing and storyboarding phase of my video, and mulling over subplots and themes (please PM me any ideas you have or post in the discussion board thread!), and I realized something about the Mordin/Genophage/Salarian/Krogan arc.

Which theme does that subplot arc fall under?

Control vs Freedom.

Salarians basically used Control on the Krogan, causing a massively depressing and regrettable storyline arc for the Krogan.

Now look at Mordin and the Salarians.

Mordin in ME2 is a character of deep insight and morals. One could say he symbolizes the better judgement of the organic perspective against the concept of Synthesis at some points, and the better judgement of the Freedom of growth over the Control of uplifting races.

Now look at ME3. The Salarians are continuing to make mistakes, trying to uplift races, only to have the Yahg literally burst out of their cages and wreak havoc. The Dalatrass is a complete tool. Now Mordin? He represents the voice of conscience for the Salarians, and sacrifices himself in the name of Freedom over Control.

That is some DEEP and subtle symbolism, there, folks. Blows my mind.


I think "Sacrifice" works really well for that arc as well...You can sacrifice all of the following things during that arc (covering ME 1 through 3); Saren's cure, Wrex, the genophage data, Maelon, Eve, Mordin, the future of the Krogan species/the cure, the support of the Dalatross...please let me know if I missed anything.


Aresh from Pragia in ME2. If you let him go he saves a shuttle full of kids in ME3. I can't remember what conoly but if it was Tiptree that could prove interesting...

#22889
SubAstris

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Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

I think the Catalyst used the kid image because: 1) He is familiar 2) He is a fairly "neutral" character in the respect that we don't really know his backstory or allegiance, he is "the representation of people on Earth". As this "neutral" character, he is thus able to deliver his information in a way which he can be heard and not prejudiced, because tbh what he says is shocking and not really that nice to hear. I think I would have found it odd if someone like Anderson was the form adopted by the Catalyst, mainly because he is such a big character, while the Catalyst needs to find his own niche and character within the story. IMO The Catalyst operates as a messenger-like character, resolving the plot at the end, not convincingly but nonetheless he does it, instead of extending it.
. (In fact you can quite reasonably make the argument that the Catalyst, if he is an agent of indoctrination, would against work itself because it would remind Shepard of all the atrocities and deaths, including the child's, at the hands of the Reapers, thus strengthening his resolve to destroy them)


Dude you did not just call the catalyst a neutral character, really you just did not.

First of a child is not neutral by default, it is innocent. An innocent figure is more liekly to be believed, but it sure as hell is not a "neutral" character. Simply by appearing human you would not asociate it with the Reapers, a deception as we know it is a Reaper or related to them.

Also its entire tone is not neutral at all. It clearly tries to get you away from Destroy y shining it in a negative light and control/synthesis in a positive light. the catalyst is not enutral in any sense of theword.

An automated computer voice laying out the pros and cons of each choice equally and without any emotion in its voice would be neutral, this kid is not. Simply by taking the shape it did it is clearly trying to make sShepard feel something, manipulate him.

In fact on that shape, how did the Catalyst learn of it? Did it watch Shepard from the start of the game, from the Citadel? How? Or did it do deep memory scan (I am pretty sure Shepard was not thinking of the child as he fell uncounscious on the Citadel) to find out?Something like that would completely new to ME, oh wait so is the catalyst.

And then there is its name. Catalyst, a catalyst is something speedinjg up a chemical process without beeing consumed in it or changing...but the Catalyst says it was changed, its entire name is a lie.

Also it would work against the Reapers...had it not been for the image of the boy allready been worked into Shepards head as something he was seeking to protect. It takes the face of something Shepard wanted to protect and that makes Shepard more likely to believe its words (again not neutral at all).



Perhaps "neutral" is not the correct word, I just mean our judgement on him, by the use of that form, aren't prejudiced as the child is not really established as a character with a deep background. We might not like what he is saying but that by itself doesn't mean anything.

You would not expect a Reaper because the whole reveal is that the Catalyst is the master behind the Reapers, not a Reaper himself. He is might be associated with the Reapers, but remember he is not one himself (perhaps that's your IT bias coming in :)

I do agree, according to his evidence, destroy is potentially the worst choice. But this is someone who considers the Reapers a good thing . It might be deeply wrong in its moral, but that doesn't necessarily mean it is deceptive here. It is neutral in the sense that although he might favour one option, according to his evidence, he doesn't force you into any path at all.

A computer-like voice could have been good, probably even better than the kid, but I don't think he is manipulating to choose destroy to get indoctrinated . As far as I am concerned, he is just making sure Shepard listens to him; if he presented himself as a Reaper, the idea that his evidence could be given objectively would have been in jeopardy.

Just because something is in a different from to what you might have expected before doesn't mean it doesn't exist, the Catalyst is referenced many times and there are hints that it is the master of the Reapers.

The Catalyst is instrumental in making sure the Crucible works (the reaction in this case) but he cannot make the decision himself (the Catalyst can't be used up). His name fits.

You seem to have the belief that Shepard cannot distinguish between the child, a representation of the people on Earth, and the form the Catalyst takes, there is a difference

#22890
SubAstris

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BatmanTurian wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

SubAstris wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

God, I knew SubAstris would come into this thread and the first thing out of his mouth when looking at the infrasonic video would be " PTSD". God, you are so predictable, SA.

Even when shown compelling evidence, You go purposefully obtuse, ignore the evidence, and just end up looking like you're in denial. This is why I don't have debates with you anymore. You ignore whatever's in front of you and refuse to concede evidence.


I am debating the evidence, not ignoring it, just because I don't agree with some of the conclusions made doesn't mean I am actively evading it. You better have a look at my comments again if you truly think I have evaded the evidence. Your definition of "compelling" must be different to mine. Feel free to say where I have gone so desperately wrong.

Furthermore, I don't even remember bringing up "PTSD", I'm pretty sure it was someone else

Yeah it was Raistlin. Apologies.

However, your answer to this evidence, which is tangible, ( we can see the results, where it happens, why it happens, how much more work would be involved to create it despite players never going to hear it) is speculations about the kid based on a misinterpretation of the Final Hours app. It's a weak counterpoint and an example of your inability to concede and judge evidence based on its merits.


A misinterpretation? How so exactll?


Kid is the representitive of earth. You can't say Bioware lied about the game, then believe some random thing about the kid that they also said. We can't pick and choose when Bioware is telling the truth which is why we use evidence from the game.  We know the kid is more than a representive of Earth. Why else would the Catalyst take its form to manipulate your emotions?

Point is, Infrasonic noise that we wouldn't even be able to play on our speakers was put into the game in places related to reapers and possible indoctrination. Infrasonic noise, which is silent, is what is used by Reapers in their Indoctrination. That's solid.


Where exactly did I say BW lied about the game, and even if I did, what makes you think that everything they said is a lie? Why in that case even believe they are making an EC?

I think the Catalyst used the kid image because: 1) He is familiar 2) He is a fairly "neutral" character in the respect that we don't really know his backstory or allegiance, he is "the representation of people on Earth". As this "neutral" character, he is thus able to deliver his information in a way which he can be heard and not prejudiced, because tbh what he says is shocking and not really that nice to hear. I think I would have found it odd if someone like Anderson was the form adopted by the Catalyst, mainly because he is such a big character, while the Catalyst needs to find his own niche and character within the story. IMO The Catalyst operates as a messenger-like character, resolving the plot at the end, not convincingly but nonetheless he does it, instead of extending it.
. (In fact you can quite reasonably make the argument that the Catalyst, if he is an agent of indoctrination, would against work itself because it would remind Shepard of all the atrocities and deaths, including the child's, at the hands of the Reapers, thus strengthening his resolve to destroy them)

As for the infrasounds, I have very little knowledge when it comes to music in games, how they are created etc, and have no idea if it is common in other games as well. It would be interesting if it could be shown that whenever the Reapers or apparent signs of indoctrination come about, such as all through the dream sequence and all through the ending sequence. Instead what I appear to see, is people showing evidence for infrasound at a time when there are big noises on the screen anyway, which seems far from conclusive


Someone want to jump in here? SubAstris gives me an ulcer very quickly. Certainly not intentionally, I'm sure.


You seem to be very reluctant to answer. If you don't agree, then simply say "I don't agree", don't just try and slander me instead


No, it's just how you misinterpret, likely not on purpose at my most optimistic and forgiving, what I say and then I have to explain what I said all over again along with why I believe you are wrong again. It makes me sigh deeply with frustration.


And again who don't actually answer the question. You clearly don't want to so I won't ask

#22891
Andromidius

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SubAstris wrote...
You seem to have the belief that Shepard cannot distinguish between the child, a representation of the people on Earth, and the form the Catalyst takes, there is a difference


I'd say that's what the Catalyst is attempting.  Clouding Shepard's judgement and all.

And Starbinger pretty much outright states its a Reaper.  Just because it controls the Reapers doesn't mean it isn't one.  TIM controls Cerberus and its made up of humans, so is TIM a human or not?

#22892
FellishBeast

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Andromidius wrote...

SubAstris wrote...
You seem to have the belief that Shepard cannot distinguish between the child, a representation of the people on Earth, and the form the Catalyst takes, there is a difference


I'd say that's what the Catalyst is attempting.  Clouding Shepard's judgement and all.

And Starbinger pretty much outright states its a Reaper.  Just because it controls the Reapers doesn't mean it isn't one.  TIM controls Cerberus and its made up of humans, so is TIM a human or not?


"I know you've thought about destroying us."

#22893
Andromidius

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FellishBeast wrote...

Andromidius wrote...

SubAstris wrote...
You seem to have the belief that Shepard cannot distinguish between the child, a representation of the people on Earth, and the form the Catalyst takes, there is a difference


I'd say that's what the Catalyst is attempting.  Clouding Shepard's judgement and all.

And Starbinger pretty much outright states its a Reaper.  Just because it controls the Reapers doesn't mean it isn't one.  TIM controls Cerberus and its made up of humans, so is TIM a human or not?


"I know you've thought about destroying us."


"Or, do you think you can control us?"

Modifié par Andromidius, 19 juin 2012 - 10:15 .


#22894
Big Bad

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You know, the more I think about it the more I come to believe that the whole catalyst contradicting the definition of his name thing is pretty much just the writers winking at us. The way he says that the crucible changed him is just so specific...I just don't think it could be accidental. Once you get the "joke", it's almost fourth wall-breaking in its obviousness. Of course, many people have pointed this out already, but some earlier posts got me thinking about it again.

To me, this kind of "evidence" is just the most convincing.

#22895
masster blaster

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DrTsoni wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

Guys, I'm behind on the thread since I'm working on the video, but I just realized something that I had to share. I'm still at the conceptualizing and storyboarding phase of my video, and mulling over subplots and themes (please PM me any ideas you have or post in the discussion board thread!), and I realized something about the Mordin/Genophage/Salarian/Krogan arc.

Which theme does that subplot arc fall under?

Control vs Freedom.

Salarians basically used Control on the Krogan, causing a massively depressing and regrettable storyline arc for the Krogan.

Now look at Mordin and the Salarians.

Mordin in ME2 is a character of deep insight and morals. One could say he symbolizes the better judgement of the organic perspective against the concept of Synthesis at some points, and the better judgement of the Freedom of growth over the Control of uplifting races.

Now look at ME3. The Salarians are continuing to make mistakes, trying to uplift races, only to have the Yahg literally burst out of their cages and wreak havoc. The Dalatrass is a complete tool. Now Mordin? He represents the voice of conscience for the Salarians, and sacrifices himself in the name of Freedom over Control.

That is some DEEP and subtle symbolism, there, folks. Blows my mind.


Sorry, got distracted by lunch :P
That actually is a nice catch. The themes of the end were present throughtout most of the game, but I hadn't thought of it like that. It's especially well done when you think that Mordin wants to cure the genophage now because he believes it's wrong, when at the time he altered it he believed that he was doing the right thing, the best choice at the time. Paragon was always doing the "right" thing, or what Shepard believed to be the right thing, anyway. The Control ending is the "paragon" choice and seems to be the best choice: sacrifice yourself to control the Reapers and the Geth/EDI get to live, while everyone else (Reapers excluded, obviously) maintain their individuality and freedom. And, if things get out of control, you could always start the cycle all over again. The same could be said for the genophage; if the Krogan got out of control again, the would have just altered the genophage again/more.
So who's to say that just because it seems to be the right choice now, further down the line Shepard wouldn't think it was a mistake? You know, when s/he ends up realizing it was a Reaper trap and they're not indoctrinated.

Edit: Typo :pinched:


But that's jsut it Bioware wanted the fans to think which chocies is right because it's intresting to see what people come up with and they needed to know were the fans just playing ME for the action, or for the stroy.

#22896
FellishBeast

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Big Bad wrote...

You know, the more I think about it the more I come to believe that the whole catalyst contradicting the definition of his name thing is pretty much just the writers winking at us. The way he says that the crucible changed him is just so specific...I just don't think it could be accidental. Once you get the "joke", it's almost fourth wall-breaking in its obviousness. Of course, many people have pointed this out already, but some earlier posts got me thinking about it again.

To me, this kind of "evidence" is just the most convincing.


I was not a huge fan of biology and chemistry. I'm assuming part of the definition of "catalyst" is that it can't be changed or something along those lines? I know it's not used up in reactions, and that's about it. I think.

#22897
FellishBeast

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masster blaster wrote...

DrTsoni wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

Guys, I'm behind on the thread since I'm working on the video, but I just realized something that I had to share. I'm still at the conceptualizing and storyboarding phase of my video, and mulling over subplots and themes (please PM me any ideas you have or post in the discussion board thread!), and I realized something about the Mordin/Genophage/Salarian/Krogan arc.

Which theme does that subplot arc fall under?

Control vs Freedom.

Salarians basically used Control on the Krogan, causing a massively depressing and regrettable storyline arc for the Krogan.

Now look at Mordin and the Salarians.

Mordin in ME2 is a character of deep insight and morals. One could say he symbolizes the better judgement of the organic perspective against the concept of Synthesis at some points, and the better judgement of the Freedom of growth over the Control of uplifting races.

Now look at ME3. The Salarians are continuing to make mistakes, trying to uplift races, only to have the Yahg literally burst out of their cages and wreak havoc. The Dalatrass is a complete tool. Now Mordin? He represents the voice of conscience for the Salarians, and sacrifices himself in the name of Freedom over Control.

That is some DEEP and subtle symbolism, there, folks. Blows my mind.


Sorry, got distracted by lunch :P
That actually is a nice catch. The themes of the end were present throughtout most of the game, but I hadn't thought of it like that. It's especially well done when you think that Mordin wants to cure the genophage now because he believes it's wrong, when at the time he altered it he believed that he was doing the right thing, the best choice at the time. Paragon was always doing the "right" thing, or what Shepard believed to be the right thing, anyway. The Control ending is the "paragon" choice and seems to be the best choice: sacrifice yourself to control the Reapers and the Geth/EDI get to live, while everyone else (Reapers excluded, obviously) maintain their individuality and freedom. And, if things get out of control, you could always start the cycle all over again. The same could be said for the genophage; if the Krogan got out of control again, the would have just altered the genophage again/more.
So who's to say that just because it seems to be the right choice now, further down the line Shepard wouldn't think it was a mistake? You know, when s/he ends up realizing it was a Reaper trap and they're not indoctrinated.

Edit: Typo :pinched:


But that's jsut it Bioware wanted the fans to think which chocies is right because it's intresting to see what people come up with and they needed to know were the fans just playing ME for the action, or for the stroy.



To me, the ending sort of seemed like a test to see if you were paying attention in the previous two games. To me, picking anything other than destroy is just absurd and unjustified based on the premise of the whole series. :pinched:

#22898
paxxton

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EpyonX3 wrote...

paxxton wrote...

Only 100 pages and a dragon will eat the world! Posted ImagePosted Image


This sounds familiar. Can't put my finger on it.

This is a reference to a historical account of events from before the year 1000. The Pope Sylvester scared people to death stating that a dragon that lived in the Vatican's dungeons would come out at the end of the millennium and do something very bad to the world (I don't remember exactly what). When that didn't happen people ran out to the streets in their happiness and they were  . This is how New Year's Eve (also known as Sylvester) got some of its traditions.

Modifié par paxxton, 19 juin 2012 - 10:46 .


#22899
Big Bad

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FellishBeast wrote...

Big Bad wrote...

You know, the more I think about it the more I come to believe that the whole catalyst contradicting the definition of his name thing is pretty much just the writers winking at us. The way he says that the crucible changed him is just so specific...I just don't think it could be accidental. Once you get the "joke", it's almost fourth wall-breaking in its obviousness. Of course, many people have pointed this out already, but some earlier posts got me thinking about it again.

To me, this kind of "evidence" is just the most convincing.


I was not a huge fan of biology and chemistry. I'm assuming part of the definition of "catalyst" is that it can't be changed or something along those lines? I know it's not used up in reactions, and that's about it. I think.

Yep, a catalyst is something that facilitates a chemical reaction but is not used up or altered in the process.

#22900
BatmanTurian

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@SubAstris

Where exactly did I say BW lied about the game, and even if I did, what
makes you think that everything they said is a lie? Why in that case
even believe they are making an EC?


Never said you said that. Everybody says they lied about things. This is a fact. They've been deceptive. We're not sure why.


I think the Catalyst used
the kid image because: 1) He is familiar

It's a kid shepard doesn't know that died. It's not familiar. And it's a downer.

2) He is a fairly "neutral"
character in the respect that we don't really know his backstory or
allegiance,

We know that his backstory is that he is the reaper boss and his allegiance is to keeping the reaper status quo. This is obvious. He states it himself!

he is "the representation of people on Earth".
So said Bioware. But why would he take the form of a representation that would fill Shepard with grief, guilt, and shame?

As this
"neutral" character,

He's not neutral. He identifies himself as a Reaper or as their publicist at the very least, which means he is suspect and NOT neutral since he represents a race known for manipulation and deception.

he is thus able to deliver his information in a way
which he can be heard and not prejudiced,

He is prejudiced because he is a Reaper agent. How can you say he is not prejudiced when the choices he paints in a good light favor the status quo of Reaper existence?

because tbh what he says is
shocking and not really that nice to hear.

No duh, he's telling us he saves us from machines by killing us and turning us into machines and we don't even get to keep our conciousnesses intact.


I think I would have found it
odd if someone like Anderson was the form adopted by the Catalyst,
mainly because he is such a big character, while the Catalyst needs to
find his own niche and character within the story.

Well he did. He's a Reaper agent, whether AI or Reaper mental construction. He already has his whole niche and character explained in his 22 lines.

IMO The Catalyst
operates as a messenger-like character, resolving the plot at the end,
not convincingly but nonetheless he does it, instead of extending it.

Your opinion is baseless. Why not have Harbinger tell us himself since it's implied Harbinger is the leader? No, the Catalyst is a con artist selling snake oil for the Reapers so that they can profit from it.


.
(In fact you can quite reasonably make the argument that the Catalyst,
if he is an agent of indoctrination, would against work itself because
it would remind Shepard of all the atrocities and deaths, including the
child's, at the hands of the Reapers, thus strengthening his resolve to
destroy them)

The point is to remind Shepard of the atrocities and death to appeal to Shepard's heroic personality. Shepard wants freedom for organics or at least sapient beings including sapient AI. The Catalyst is using Shep's personality and inclinations against him, just as the Reapers did with Saren, Benezia, TIM, and Kai Leng.

As for the infrasounds, I have very little
knowledge when it comes to music in games, how they are created etc, and
have no idea if it is common in other games as well. It would be
interesting if it could be shown that whenever the Reapers or apparent
signs of indoctrination come about, such as all through the dream
sequence and all through the ending sequence.

They are througout the dream sequences. We have shown that the infrasonic sounds appear during the dream sequences, they appear during the run to the beam, and other cases when Shepard is being influenced by Reapers or near Reaper agents.

Instead what I appear to
see, is people showing evidence for infrasound at a time when there are
big noises on the screen anyway, which seems far from conclusive.

It's conclusive because it's sound that would never play on a speaker unless it was engineered with a program to make it semi-audible with a sub-woofer. This means that it's just extra work for Bioware to create that effect. Why would they do that? Because infrasonic noise is present during indoctrination attempts.

Happy now? I need some Ibruprophen...

Modifié par BatmanTurian, 19 juin 2012 - 10:40 .