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Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark II!


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#22926
Bill Casey

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science.howstuffworks.com/environmental/life/inside-the-mind/brainwashing1.htm

It strikes me that Shepard is dealing with an identity crisis, extreme guilt, and a challenging of his beliefs...

­Each of thes­e stages takes place in an environment of isolation, meaning all "normal" social reference points are unavailable, and mind-clouding techniques like sleep deprivation and malnutrition are typically part of the process. There is often the presence or constant threat of physical harm, which adds to the target's difficulty in thinking critically and independently.

We can roughly divide the process Lifton identified into three stages: breaking down the self, introducing the possibility of  salvation, and rebuilding the self.Breaking down the self

  • Assault on identity: You are not who you think you are. This is a systematic
    attack on a target's sense of self (also called his identity or ego) and
    his core belief system. The agent denies everything that makes the
    target who he is: "You are not a soldier." "You are not a man." "You are
    not defending freedom." The target is under constant attack for days,
    weeks or months, to the point that he becomes exhausted, confused and
    disoriented. In this state, his beliefs seem less solid.
  • Guilt:
    You are bad. While the identity crisis is setting in, the agent is
    simultaneously creating an overwhelming sense of guilt in the target. He
    repeatedly and mercilessly attacks the subject for any "sin" the target
    has committed, large or small. He may criticize the target for
    everything from the "evilness" of his beliefs to the way he eats too
    slowly. The target begins to feel a general sense of shame, that
    everything he does is wrong.
  • Self-betrayal: Agree with me that
    you are bad. Once the subject is disoriented and drowning in guilt, the
    agent forces him (either with the threat of physical harm or of
    continuance of the mental attack) to denounce his family, friends and
    peers who share the same "wrong" belief system that he holds. This
    betrayal of his own beliefs and of people he feels a sense of loyalty to
    increases the shame and loss of identity the target is already
    experiencing.
  • Breaking point: Who am I, where am I and what am I supposed to do?
    With his identity in crisis, experiencing deep shame and having
    betrayed what he has always believed in, the target may undergo what in
    the lay community is referred to as a "nervous breakdown." In
    psychology, "nervous breakdown" is really just a collection of severe
    symptoms that can indicate any number of psychological disturbances. It
    may involve uncontrollable sobbing, deep depression and general
    disorientation. The target may have lost his grip on reality and have
    the feeling of being completely lost and alone. When
    the target reaches his breaking point, his sense of self is pretty much
    up for grabs -- he has no clear understanding of who he is or what is
    happening to him. At this point, the agent sets up the temptation to
    convert to another belief system that will save the target from his
    misery.


The Possibility of Salvation
  • ­­Leniency: I can help you. With ­the target in a state of
    crisis, the agent offers some small kindness or reprieve from the abuse.
    He may offer the target a drink of water, or take a moment to ask the
    target what he misses about home. In a state of breakdown resulting from
    an endless psychological attack, the small kindness seems huge, and the
    target may experience a sense of relief and gratitude completely out of
    proportion to the offering, as if the agent has saved his life.
  • Compulsion
    to confession:
    You can help yourself.For the first time in the
    brainwashing process, the target is faced with the contrast between the
    guilt and pain of identity assault and the sudden relief of leniency.
    The target may feel a desire to reciprocate the kindness offered to him,
    and at this point, the agent may present the possibility of confession
    as a means to relieving guilt and pain.
  • Channeling of guilt:
    This is why you're in pain.After weeks or months of assault, confusion,
    breakdown and moments of leniency, the target's guilt has lost all
    meaning -- he's not sure what he has done wrong, he just knows he is
    wrong. This creates something of a blank slate that lets the agent fill
    in the blanks: He can attach that guilt, that sense of "wrongness," to
    whatever he wants. The agent attaches the target's guilt to the belief
    system the agent is trying to replace. The target comes to believe it is
    his belief system that is the cause of his shame. The contrast between
    old and new has been established: The old belief system is associated
    with psychological (and usually physical) agony; and the new belief
    system is associated with the possibility of escaping that agony.
  • Releasing of guilt: It's not me; it's my beliefs.The
    embattled target is relieved to learn there is an external cause of his
    wrongness, that it is not he himself that is inescapably bad -- this
    means he can escape his wrongness by escaping the wrong belief system.
    All he has to do is denounce the people and institutions associated with
    that belief system, and he won't be in pain anymore. The target has the
    power to release himself from wrongness by confessing to acts
    associated with his old belief system. With his full
    confessions, the target has completed his psychological rejection of his
    former identity. It is now up to the agent to offer the target a new
    one.

Rebuilding the Self
  • ­Progress and harmony: If you want, you can choose good.The
    agent introduces a new belief system as the path to "good." At this
    stage, the agent stops the abuse, offering the target physical comfort
    and mental calm in conjunction with the new belief system. The target is
    made to feel that it is he who must choose between old and new, giving
    the target the sense that his fate is in his own hands. The target has
    already denounced his old belief system in response to leniency and
    to­rment, and making a "conscious choice" in favor of the contrasting
    belief system helps to further relieve his guilt: If he truly believes,
    then he really didn't betray anyone. The choice is not a difficult one:
    The new identity is safe and desirable because it is nothing like the
    one that led to his breakdown.
  • Final confession and rebirth: [/i][i]I choose good.Contrasting
    the agony of the old with the peacefulness of the new, the target
    chooses the new identity, clinging to it like a life preserver. He
    rejects his old belief system and pledges allegiance to the new one that
    is going to make his life better. At this final stage, there are often
    rituals or ceremonies to induct the converted target into his new
    community. This stage has been described by some brainwashing victims as
    a feeling of "rebirth."
(See How Cults Work: Indoctrination for details on the thought-reform process that takes place specifically in destructive cults.)


Modifié par Bill Casey, 19 juin 2012 - 11:27 .


#22927
BatmanTurian

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FellishBeast wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

how much you want to bet he moved on and I wasted my time answering that damn volus?

Posted Image


That's if you're lucky. He could be writing a 2 page retort.


It will be two pages of a bunch of words saying the same thing over again and misinterpreting me.

#22928
Dwailing

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FellishBeast wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

how much you want to bet he moved on and I wasted my time answering that damn volus?

Posted Image


That's if you're lucky. He could be writing a 2 page retort.


Yeah, a two page retort filled with standard Literalist arguments that we've already countered HUNDREDS of times in the past.  In other news, thanks a lot whoever posted the link of the Banshee photo. :blink:  Now I think I need to bleach my brain. <_<

Modifié par Dwailing, 19 juin 2012 - 11:26 .


#22929
paxxton

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BatmanTurian wrote...

paxxton wrote...

LOL. This completely changes the main revelations from Mass Effect 1's story:


those are just gross, honestly. Gamer poop is gross sometimes but not all of their humor is gross-out sexual stuff.

Sorry. I didn't mean to offend anyone. It's just so stupid that it becomes funny.

#22930
BatmanTurian

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Bill Casey wrote...

science.howstuffworks.com/environmental/life/inside-the-mind/brainwashing1.htm

*snip*


Wow, that's some great stuff.

#22931
BatmanTurian

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paxxton wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

paxxton wrote...

LOL. This completely changes the main revelations from Mass Effect 1's story:


those are just gross, honestly. Gamer poop is gross sometimes but not all of their humor is gross-out sexual stuff.

Sorry. I didn't mean to offend anyone. It's just so stupid that it becomes funny.


Nah, I've seen worse, believe me. The internet is a lovecraftian nightmare filled with things that should not be seen.

#22932
D.Sharrah

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Turbo_J wrote...

D.Sharrah wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

Guys, I'm behind on the thread since I'm working on the video, but I just realized something that I had to share. I'm still at the conceptualizing and storyboarding phase of my video, and mulling over subplots and themes (please PM me any ideas you have or post in the discussion board thread!), and I realized something about the Mordin/Genophage/Salarian/Krogan arc.

Which theme does that subplot arc fall under?

Control vs Freedom.

Salarians basically used Control on the Krogan, causing a massively depressing and regrettable storyline arc for the Krogan.

Now look at Mordin and the Salarians.

Mordin in ME2 is a character of deep insight and morals. One could say he symbolizes the better judgement of the organic perspective against the concept of Synthesis at some points, and the better judgement of the Freedom of growth over the Control of uplifting races.

Now look at ME3. The Salarians are continuing to make mistakes, trying to uplift races, only to have the Yahg literally burst out of their cages and wreak havoc. The Dalatrass is a complete tool. Now Mordin? He represents the voice of conscience for the Salarians, and sacrifices himself in the name of Freedom over Control.

That is some DEEP and subtle symbolism, there, folks. Blows my mind.


I think "Sacrifice" works really well for that arc as well...You can sacrifice all of the following things during that arc (covering ME 1 through 3); Saren's cure, Wrex, the genophage data, Maelon, Eve, Mordin, the future of the Krogan species/the cure, the support of the Dalatross...please let me know if I missed anything.


Aresh from Pragia in ME2. If you let him go he saves a shuttle full of kids in ME3. I can't remember what conoly but if it was Tiptree that could prove interesting...


Yes that fits the theme, but not the Genophage story arc...and tha's what Hellish was discussing.  But again it just points out how prevalent some of the themes are in the game.

#22933
paxxton

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So I got to know both Councils and my verdict is: thumbs up for the original one.

#22934
Bill Casey

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BatmanTurian wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

science.howstuffworks.com/environmental/life/inside-the-mind/brainwashing1.htm

*snip*


Wow, that's some great stuff.

The third dream could be symbolic of Shepard's identity crisis...
"Maybe I'm just a VI that thinks he's Commander Shepard" can be uttered in the following mission...

Modifié par Bill Casey, 19 juin 2012 - 11:36 .


#22935
byne

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paxxton wrote...

So I got to know both Councils and my verdict is: thumbs up for the original one.


The new council sucks.

The original turian councilor, even with his air quotes, is pretty awesome, and I always kind of liked the salarian councilor.

#22936
Dwailing

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paxxton wrote...

So I got to know both Councils and my verdict is: thumbs up for the original one.


The new one is even WORSE?! :blink:  I didn't think that was possible.

#22937
paxxton

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Dwailing wrote...

paxxton wrote...

So I got to know both Councils and my verdict is: thumbs up for the original one.


The new one is even WORSE?! :blink:  I didn't think that was possible.

They are all nice but simply don't seem like people who can wield power in their hands.

#22938
D.Sharrah

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FellishBeast wrote...

EpyonX3 wrote...

FellishBeast wrote...

TSA_383 wrote...

FellishBeast wrote...

What's up, speculators? I'm gonna ask that question...you know...this one:

Any new finds?? :)


Why yes;
http://i644.photobuc...ket/forreal.jpg


Not as bad as EDI's cameltoe <_<


There's no way in my mind I find EDI's cameltoe less appealing than that which is posted above.

I know you may not be saying that but still.



EDI is a robot with no genitalia, yet when you put clothes on her, she has a cameltoe. "Artistic integrity."
Is it weird that I wasn't grossed out by that banshee pic? It made sense to me, and wasn't any more revolting than her breasts, which always happen to be what I see zoomed down my scope...<_<


I have succumbed to the raunchy humor...they could of had the Banshee do this:



I blame all of you for this, by the way. Posted Image

#22939
Dwailing

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byne wrote...

paxxton wrote...

So I got to know both Councils and my verdict is: thumbs up for the original one.


The new council sucks.

The original turian councilor, even with his air quotes, is pretty awesome, and I always kind of liked the salarian councilor.


Well, he WAS less of a jerk than the rest of them.  Although, after I cured the Genophage, it sounded like he threatened me, which was ridiculous when you consider that I'M THE ONLY HOPE THE GALAXY HAS!!!

#22940
paxxton

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byne wrote...

paxxton wrote...

So I got to know both Councils and my verdict is: thumbs up for the original one.


The new council sucks.

The original turian councilor, even with his air quotes, is pretty awesome, and I always kind of liked the salarian councilor.

The original has more majesty to it. The new one is like a bunch of bros. Both aren't willing to cooperate though.

Modifié par paxxton, 19 juin 2012 - 11:40 .


#22941
Bill Casey

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Dwailing wrote...

Well, he WAS less of a jerk than the rest of them.  Although, after I cured the Genophage, it sounded like he threatened me, which was ridiculous when you consider that I'M THE ONLY HOPE THE GALAXY HAS!!!

The new Salarian Councillor is a lot nicer to you about that...
Shepard gives her a way to spin it, and she commends Shepard's thinking...

Modifié par Bill Casey, 19 juin 2012 - 11:40 .


#22942
byne

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Dwailing wrote...

byne wrote...

paxxton wrote...

So I got to know both Councils and my verdict is: thumbs up for the original one.


The new council sucks.

The original turian councilor, even with his air quotes, is pretty awesome, and I always kind of liked the salarian councilor.


Well, he WAS less of a jerk than the rest of them.  Although, after I cured the Genophage, it sounded like he threatened me, which was ridiculous when you consider that I'M THE ONLY HOPE THE GALAXY HAS!!!


Hell, if you had a fleet of stealth dreadnoughts with Reaper IFFs installed aboard, you'd feel pretty invincible too.

#22943
Big Bad

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byne wrote...

paxxton wrote...

So I got to know both Councils and my verdict is: thumbs up for the original one.


The new council sucks.

The original turian councilor, even with his air quotes, is pretty awesome, and I always kind of liked the salarian councilor.


One thing I've always wondered - are there any actual serious negative consequences for letting the council die in ME1?  If I remember write, the Salarian Councilor in ME3 has a vrey cryptic comment about how it's a good thing that Shepard saved them, so I wonder if not saving them has some sort of negative impact.

#22944
Dwailing

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paxxton wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

paxxton wrote...

So I got to know both Councils and my verdict is: thumbs up for the original one.


The new one is even WORSE?! :blink:  I didn't think that was possible.

They are all nice but simply don't seem like people who can wield power in their hands.


You know, I've been considering doing a FailShep playthrough of ME2 and ME3 (That DefaultShep for those not in the know.  What can I say, FailShep describes the choices made by DefaultShep perfectly.).  I guess I should do it so I can meet the new Council.

#22945
byne

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Big Bad wrote...

byne wrote...

paxxton wrote...

So I got to know both Councils and my verdict is: thumbs up for the original one.


The new council sucks.

The original turian councilor, even with his air quotes, is pretty awesome, and I always kind of liked the salarian councilor.


One thing I've always wondered - are there any actual serious negative consequences for letting the council die in ME1?  If I remember write, the Salarian Councilor in ME3 has a vrey cryptic comment about how it's a good thing that Shepard saved them, so I wonder if not saving them has some sort of negative impact.


I think saving them works out to like 25 extra war asset points, but thats really it

#22946
paxxton

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Dwailing wrote...

paxxton wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

paxxton wrote...

So I got to know both Councils and my verdict is: thumbs up for the original one.


The new one is even WORSE?! :blink:  I didn't think that was possible.

They are all nice but simply don't seem like people who can wield power in their hands.


You know, I've been considering doing a FailShep playthrough of ME2 and ME3 (That DefaultShep for those not in the know.  What can I say, FailShep describes the choices made by DefaultShep perfectly.).  I guess I should do it so I can meet the new Council.

You can just start a clean playthrough and they're just there.

#22947
BatmanTurian

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byne wrote...

paxxton wrote...

So I got to know both Councils and my verdict is: thumbs up for the original one.


The new council sucks.

The original turian councilor, even with his air quotes, is pretty awesome, and I always kind of liked the salarian councilor.


He earned my respect in ME3. He became a total bro.

#22948
Big Bad

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byne wrote...

Big Bad wrote...

byne wrote...

paxxton wrote...

So I got to know both Councils and my verdict is: thumbs up for the original one.


The new council sucks.

The original turian councilor, even with his air quotes, is pretty awesome, and I always kind of liked the salarian councilor.


One thing I've always wondered - are there any actual serious negative consequences for letting the council die in ME1?  If I remember write, the Salarian Councilor in ME3 has a vrey cryptic comment about how it's a good thing that Shepard saved them, so I wonder if not saving them has some sort of negative impact.


I think saving them works out to like 25 extra war asset points, but thats really it


Lame. :(  I hope the EC will give us some bigger consequences to "major" decisions like that.

#22949
paxxton

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BatmanTurian wrote...

byne wrote...

paxxton wrote...

So I got to know both Councils and my verdict is: thumbs up for the original one.


The new council sucks.

The original turian councilor, even with his air quotes, is pretty awesome, and I always kind of liked the salarian councilor.


He earned my respect in ME3. He became a total bro.

Yeah, he was the only one of them to come down and offer real help. Maybe others also wanted to do that but he was first.

#22950
Dwailing

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paxxton wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

paxxton wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

paxxton wrote...

So I got to know both Councils and my verdict is: thumbs up for the original one.


The new one is even WORSE?! :blink:  I didn't think that was possible.

They are all nice but simply don't seem like people who can wield power in their hands.


You know, I've been considering doing a FailShep playthrough of ME2 and ME3 (That DefaultShep for those not in the know.  What can I say, FailShep describes the choices made by DefaultShep perfectly.).  I guess I should do it so I can meet the new Council.

You can just start a clean playthrough and they're just there.


That's what I mean.  I picked up the term FailShep when I was googling... something.  It refers to starting a cleam playthrough.  I'm thinking about doing a clean playthrough of ME2 to import into ME3, and a stand alone clean playthrough of ME3.