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[BatmanTurian]

I'm off for a bit. Someone please handle SA if he decides to poke his head in again and answer my post.

[paxxton]

Turian Councilor: "Commander, the door."

Modifié par paxxton, 19 juin 2012 - 11:50 .

[gpost]

byne wrote...

paxxton wrote...

So I got to know both Councils and my verdict is: thumbs up for the original one.

The new council sucks.

The original turian councilor, even with his air quotes, is pretty awesome, and I always kind of liked the salarian councilor.

I always felt that if you let the council die then the council should have become all human

[Dwailing]

paxxton wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

byne wrote...

paxxton wrote...

So I got to know both Councils and my verdict is: thumbs up for the original one.

The new council sucks.

The original turian councilor, even with his air quotes, is pretty awesome, and I always kind of liked the salarian councilor.

He earned my respect in ME3. He became a total bro.

Yeah, he was the only one of them to come down and offer real help. Maybe others also wanted to do that but he was first.

He kind of had a Conrad Verner moment.  Of all the people to offer help, the Turian Councilor.  May you live in interesting times indeed.

[Salient Archer]

Ok, So now that I have your attention this'll hopefully be the last time I have to post anything about the often misinterpreted final hours quote. After scrounging the internet, twitter feeds, art books, game guide and naturally the final hours app itself I've concluded that there's only one piece of evidence anti-ITers can possible use and it is actually more supportive of Shepard's indoctrination. Anyway, I hope my post proves [hopefully] once and for all that the app never once states that Shep isn't indoctrinated.

Firstly the quoted section itself:

"...In truth the final bits of dialogue were debated right up until the end of 2011. Martin Sheen's voice-over session for the Illusive Man, originally scheduled for August, was delayed until mid-November so the writers would have more time to finesse the ending. And even in November the gameplay team was still experimenting with an endgame sequence where players would suddenly loose control of Shepard's movements and fall under full Reaper control. (This sequence was ultimately dropped because the gameplay mechanic proved too troublesome to implement alongside dialogue choices.) With the ending coming together the team took a few days off over the holidays in December to regroup and decompress...

So firstly, find for me anywhere in that paragraph where it says outright that the planned concept of Commander Shepard's indoctrination was ever dropped? Or even that the dialogue options that would reflect it would be? - That's right, it doesn't ever say that the indoctrination was ever dropped but it does state that they planned that Shepard would be in the end game and it never says that they broke away from that idea. It only ever says that the Game Mechanic associated to it was, the game mechanic of the player loosing control was dropped but not the indoctrination idea itself.

Lets break it down ... hammer-time.

Firstly there’s this: “...The gameplay team was still experimenting with an endgame sequence where players would suddenly loose control of Shepard’s movements and fall under full Reaper control...”

So we know that BioWare absolutely intended for Shep to be indoctrinated during the endgame, so the point so many anti-ITers make that BioWare aren’t clever enough to come up with the ITD is really far from the truth.

“...(This sequence was ultimately dropped because the gameplay mechanic proved too troublesome to implement alongside dialogue choices.)...”

I assume most people haven't learnt how to read because they often state the line as “The Indoctrination of Shepard was dropped”, but not once does this line ever indicate this, it actually just reinforces the fact that BW wanted to make the process more subtle, personal and engaging opposed to shoehorning an ad hoc gameplay element. All that sentence actually says is that the mechanic of having the game suddenly take away control from the player was dropped but not the indoctrination of Shepard itself. It also says that it was hard to implement ALONG with the dialogue choices, but it never says that the related dialogue choices were ever removed and hence we are still presented them in the game during the end sequence, remember Martin Sheen was the last VA to record and his lines were actually recorded 'before' they dropped the game mechanic as evidenced in the App and Twitter posts from the developers themselves, meaning that the plan of indoctrinating Shepard was in execution during the time of recording Martin's lines.

Feel free to argue or try and disprove anything I've just posted but I'm feeling pretty cocky about this one.

Modifié par Salient Archer, 19 juin 2012 - 11:53 .

[Dwailing]

gpost wrote...

byne wrote...

paxxton wrote...

So I got to know both Councils and my verdict is: thumbs up for the original one.

The new council sucks.

The original turian councilor, even with his air quotes, is pretty awesome, and I always kind of liked the salarian councilor.

I always felt that if you let the council die then the council should have become all human

I did sound like that was going to happen.  I was kind of surprised that it didn't.

[BatmanTurian]

Salient Archer wrote...


*snip*

Kristin Bell as Femshep? Yes, please.

[byne]

gpost wrote...

byne wrote...

paxxton wrote...

So I got to know both Councils and my verdict is: thumbs up for the original one.

The new council sucks.

The original turian councilor, even with his air quotes, is pretty awesome, and I always kind of liked the salarian councilor.

I always felt that if you let the council die then the council should have become all human

Hell, if you're renegade and let the council die, that was the plan at the end of ME1. Shepard even suggested that the other races wouldnt be happy with an all human council, and that they'd need to use the fleets to bring them in line.

ME1 technically had four endings, not two, since letting the council live had different scenes depending on if you were paragon or renegade. Same with letting them die.

[BatmanTurian]

Salient Archer wrote...

Ok, So now that I have your attention this'll hopefully be the last time I have to post anything about the often misinterpreted final hours quote. After scrounging the internet, twitter feeds, art books, game guide and naturally the final hours app itself I've concluded that there's only one piece of evidence anti-ITers can possible use and it is actually more supportive of Shepard's indoctrination. Anyway, I hope my post proves [hopefully] once and for all that the app never once states that Shep isn't indoctrinated.

Firstly the quoted section itself:

"...In truth the final bits of dialogue were debated right up until the end of 2011. Martin Sheen's voice-over session for the Illusive Man, originally scheduled for August, was delayed until mid-November so the writers would have more time to finesse the ending. And even in November the gameplay team was still experimenting with an endgame sequence where players would suddenly loose control of Shepard's movements and fall under full Reaper control. (This sequence was ultimately dropped because the gameplay mechanic proved too troublesome to implement alongside dialogue choices.) With the ending coming together the team took a few days off over the holidays in December to regroup and decompress...

So firstly, find for me anywhere in that paragraph where it says outright that the planned concept of Commander Shepard's indoctrination was ever dropped? Or even that the dialogue options that would reflect it would be? - That's right, it doesn't ever say that the indoctrination was ever dropped but it does state that they planned that Shepard would be in the end game and it never says that they broke away from that idea. It only ever says that the Game Mechanic associated to it was, the game mechanic of the player loosing control was dropped but not the indoctrination idea itself.

Lets break it down ... hammer-time.

Firstly there’s this: “...The gameplay team was still experimenting with an endgame sequence where players would suddenly loose control of Shepard’s movements and fall under full Reaper control...”

So we know that BioWare absolutely intended for Shep to be indoctrinated during the endgame, so the point so many anti-ITers make that BioWare aren’t clever enough to come up with the ITD is really far from the truth.

“...(This sequence was ultimately dropped because the gameplay mechanic proved too troublesome to implement alongside dialogue choices.)...”

I assume most people haven't learnt how to read because they often state the line as “The Indoctrination of Shepard was dropped”, but not once does this line ever indicate this, it actually just reinforces the fact that BW wanted to make the process more subtle, personal and engaging opposed to shoehorning an ad hoc gameplay element. All that sentence actually says is that the mechanic of having the game suddenly take away control from the player was dropped but not the indoctrination of Shepard itself. It also says that it was hard to implement ALONG with the dialogue choices, but it never says that the related dialogue choices were ever removed and hence we are still presented them in the game during the end sequence, remember Martin Sheen was the last VA to record and his lines were actually recorded 'before' the dropped the game mechanic as evidenced in the App and Twitter posts from the developers themselves, meaning that the plan of indoctrinating Shepard was in execution during the time of recording Martin's lines.

Feel free to argue or try and disprove anything I've just posted but I'm feeling pretty cocky about this one.

Anyway, just to be fair, I read this and I agree with all of this. You are always a great asset to this thread, Salient, and I always look forward to your posts because you bring up something new and different or sometimes old things in a new angle and light.

[Andromidius]

byne wrote...
ME1 technically had four endings, not two, since letting the council live had different scenes depending on if you were paragon or renegade. Same with letting them die.

Yep.  Shame that was dropped in ME2, and then completely retconned in ME3.  Guess it made the story too hard to plan out

[D.Sharrah]

Salient Archer wrote...


Ok, So now that I have your attention this'll hopefully be the last time I have to post anything about the often misinterpreted final hours quote. After scrounging the internet, twitter feeds, art books, game guide and naturally the final hours app itself I've concluded that there's only one piece of evidence anti-ITers can possible use and it is actually more supportive of Shepard's indoctrination. Anyway, I hope my post proves [hopefully] once and for all that the app never once states that Shep isn't indoctrinated.

Firstly the quoted section itself:

"...In truth the final bits of dialogue were debated right up until the end of 2011. Martin Sheen's voice-over session for the Illusive Man, originally scheduled for August, was delayed until mid-November so the writers would have more time to finesse the ending. And even in November the gameplay team was still experimenting with an endgame sequence where players would suddenly loose control of Shepard's movements and fall under full Reaper control. (This sequence was ultimately dropped because the gameplay mechanic proved too troublesome to implement alongside dialogue choices.) With the ending coming together the team took a few days off over the holidays in December to regroup and decompress...

So firstly, find for me anywhere in that paragraph where it says outright that the planned concept of Commander Shepard's indoctrination was ever dropped? Or even that the dialogue options that would reflect it would be? - That's right, it doesn't ever say that the indoctrination was ever dropped but it does state that they planned that Shepard would be in the end game and it never says that they broke away from that idea. It only ever says that the Game Mechanic associated to it was, the game mechanic of the player loosing control was dropped but not the indoctrination idea itself.

Lets break it down ... hammer-time.

Firstly there’s this: “...The gameplay team was still experimenting with an endgame sequence where players would suddenly loose control of Shepard’s movements and fall under full Reaper control...”

So we know that BioWare absolutely intended for Shep to be indoctrinated during the endgame, so the point so many anti-ITers make that BioWare aren’t clever enough to come up with the ITD is really far from the truth.

“...(This sequence was ultimately dropped because the gameplay mechanic proved too troublesome to implement alongside dialogue choices.)...”

I assume most people haven't learnt how to read because they often state the line as “The Indoctrination of Shepard was dropped”, but not once does this line ever indicate this, it actually just reinforces the fact that BW wanted to make the process more subtle, personal and engaging opposed to shoehorning an ad hoc gameplay element. All that sentence actually says is that the mechanic of having the game suddenly take away control from the player was dropped but not the indoctrination of Shepard itself. It also says that it was hard to implement ALONG with the dialogue choices, but it never says that the related dialogue choices were ever removed and hence we are still presented them in the game during the end sequence, remember Martin Sheen was the last VA to record and his lines were actually recorded 'before' they dropped the game mechanic as evidenced in the App and Twitter posts from the developers themselves, meaning that the plan of indoctrinating Shepard was in execution during the time of recording Martin's lines.

Feel free to argue or try and disprove anything I've just posted but I'm feeling pretty cocky about this one.

I posted this earlier today, it is along the same line...

First...it looks like there was some good discussion after I went to bed last night...kudos to all involved. That being said, I am not going to try to read the pages I missed to try to catch up. Which means if what I bring up again in this post has been talked to death, I do apologize, And without further ado...

Last night I very briefly mentioned something that was bothering me about one of the things from the "Final Hours" App. It was a statement that suggested that during the final hours of production Bioware made a decision to pull th plug on a game mechanic that they had been working on. Of course I am referring to the idea that they were considering IT all along and they had a game mechanic where we the players would "lose control of Shepard". The app goes onto to say that they pulled the plug on this gameplay mechanic because they (Bioware) were having trouble finding a way to implement this along with their conventional dialogue system.

It would seem on the surface that this is a rather valid observation. And is often used by Anti-IT'ers as "evidence" that IT can't be true. As many have pointed out this is quite silly in its own right, because they are misinterperting what the app says. The app says that the game mechanic was scrapped - and they take that to mean that IT was scrapped. They are extrapolating from the given data to come to a conclusion, that may very well be wrong. And no matter what we say, they don't want to admit that they might be wrong. It could be enough to stop there, but I think this deserves more attention.

Getting back to the game mechanic being scrapped statement, is this true? This point is what I brought up last night - I asked if the confrontation with TIM could be viewed as an in game example of what this mechanic would look like. And the one answer that I saw (and again I apologize if there were more answers later), was maybe. I don't remember exactly who stated it (BatmanTurian?) or what the exact words were, but it was something like, "It was supposed to be Harbinger, but maybe they changed it to TIM". Again, this could be a fair enough point to stop, but if we do then we could miss how it actually fits into how they designed that sequence and the entire game.

First of all, assuming that we are right about IT and that the TIM confrontation is an example of the mechanic in question - then that sequence is about indoctrination. And when interperting what we see from the viewpoint, then TIM is not the one exerting control - but it is the Reapers (most likely Harbinger as the culprit who is doing the indoctrinating). Following IT, then we know what we perceive as TIM's space magic control of Shep - is actually the Reapers twisting Shep's perception in their attempt to indoctrinate him.

But were still not done. The app clearly states that the mechanic was tossed out of the game because Bioware was having trouble figuring out a way to implement the mechanic without compromising the dialogue system. What if rather than tossing out the "lose control" mechanic, they changed the dialogue system so that it would fit better? I know one of the big complaints when the game came out was the rampant use of auto-dialogue. People felt that it took control away from them, didn't give them the choice that they once had (and I don't think that those feelings are wrong). But what if it was done throughout the entire game, so that when we get to this watershed moment - it didn't stick out.

I know that we have tried to interpret all the pre-release clues in different ways - and I am not sure that we have them completely nailed down yet. But is it possible that the "red herring" is the "Final Hours" app? And that we were meant to misinterpret the information presented or take it for granted that it was "truth"...all so that we were thrown off the IT trail?

Sorry for the wall of text (hope that is formatted so it is an easier read). Please read and let me know what you think.

[paxxton]

Salient Archer wrote...



*snip*

Would you mind posting the face code?

[D.Sharrah]

BatmanTurian wrote...

Salient Archer wrote...


*snip*

Kristin Bell as Femshep? Yes, please.

Seconded...if they dye her hair red.

[D.Sharrah]

Gotta go...re-runs of Big Bang Theory are on...

[Humakt83]

gpost wrote...

I always felt that if you let the council die then the council should have become all human

Alien's wouldn't submit to that. I'd say humans should have even harder position in council if you let original council die.

[Golferguy758]

So, I feel that I should bring this up. It's in relation to that little infrasound bit from a while ago. I was speaking with a good friend of mien who is in sound design about the use of infrasound. He mentioned that it can be used to change the sound of the sounds that we can actually hear. We can't hear the infrasound itself, but it can be used to alter the sounds that we do hear to make them feel different to our ears.

Just something to think about.

[byne]

Golferguy758 wrote...

So, I feel that I should bring this up. It's in relation to that little infrasound bit from a while ago. I was speaking with a good friend of mien who is in sound design about the use of infrasound. He mentioned that it can be used to change the sound of the sounds that we can actually hear. We can't hear the infrasound itself, but it can be used to alter the sounds that we do hear to make them feel different to our ears.

Just something to think about.

Golferguy! Long time no see!

[paxxton]

It's really calm today.

[Dwailing]

Hey, Golferguy758! Good to see you again.

[Naruana]

FellishBeast wrote...

masster blaster wrote...

DrTsoni wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

Guys, I'm behind on the thread since I'm working on the video, but I just realized something that I had to share. I'm still at the conceptualizing and storyboarding phase of my video, and mulling over subplots and themes (please PM me any ideas you have or post in the discussion board thread!), and I realized something about the Mordin/Genophage/Salarian/Krogan arc.

Which theme does that subplot arc fall under?

Control vs Freedom.

Salarians basically used Control on the Krogan, causing a massively depressing and regrettable storyline arc for the Krogan.

Now look at Mordin and the Salarians.

Mordin in ME2 is a character of deep insight and morals. One could say he symbolizes the better judgement of the organic perspective against the concept of Synthesis at some points, and the better judgement of the Freedom of growth over the Control of uplifting races.

Now look at ME3. The Salarians are continuing to make mistakes, trying to uplift races, only to have the Yahg literally burst out of their cages and wreak havoc. The Dalatrass is a complete tool. Now Mordin? He represents the voice of conscience for the Salarians, and sacrifices himself in the name of Freedom over Control.

That is some DEEP and subtle symbolism, there, folks. Blows my mind.

Sorry, got distracted by lunch
That actually is a nice catch. The themes of the end were present throughtout most of the game, but I hadn't thought of it like that. It's especially well done when you think that Mordin wants to cure the genophage now because he believes it's wrong, when at the time he altered it he believed that he was doing the right thing, the best choice at the time. Paragon was always doing the "right" thing, or what Shepard believed to be the right thing, anyway. The Control ending is the "paragon" choice and seems to be the best choice: sacrifice yourself to control the Reapers and the Geth/EDI get to live, while everyone else (Reapers excluded, obviously) maintain their individuality and freedom. And, if things get out of control, you could always start the cycle all over again. The same could be said for the genophage; if the Krogan got out of control again, the would have just altered the genophage again/more.
So who's to say that just because it seems to be the right choice now, further down the line Shepard wouldn't think it was a mistake? You know, when s/he ends up realizing it was a Reaper trap and they're not indoctrinated.

Edit: Typo

But that's jsut it Bioware wanted the fans to think which chocies is right because it's intresting to see what people come up with and they needed to know were the fans just playing ME for the action, or for the stroy.

To me, the ending sort of seemed like a test to see if you were paying attention in the previous two games. To me, picking anything other than destroy is just absurd and unjustified based on the premise of the whole series. 

I would agree, which makes me feel like an even bigger jackass for falling for the Catalyst's trick the first time. I've been an ME fanatic from the beginning and yet I screw up when it really counts...

[munnellyladt]

Hey guys seems theres not alot to talk about but i'm not sure it was brought up,but i'm going to tell it anyway.
I was doing a replay of the endibg and saw something very odd.
When Anderson dies and shepard starts crawling to the control panel,theres kind of an oily cloud thing in the backround.
Anybody got any thoughts on it?

[Golferguy758]

Byne.

Dwailing.

...Shepard.

[paxxton]

Wrex.

[Turbo_J]

Ha! Avoided the by Pax by not posting...

[paxxton]

Ha!

Modifié par paxxton, 20 juin 2012 - 12:57 .