55528 réponses à ce sujet

[Bill Casey]

D.Sharrah wrote...

But were still not done. The app clearly states that the mechanic was tossed out of the game because Bioware was having trouble figuring out a way to implement the mechanic without compromising the dialogue system. What if rather than tossing out the "lose control" mechanic, they changed the dialogue system so that it would fit better?

Or they just had Shepard stand in one place...

Modifié par Bill Casey, 20 juin 2012 - 12:56 .

[BatmanTurian]

hey guys, remember this? I still want to do this and I would never harm children.

[paxxton]

BatmanTurian wrote...

hey guys, remember this? I still want to do this and I would never harm children.

Mass Effect 3 made you a killer.  jk

Modifié par paxxton, 20 juin 2012 - 01:06 .

[Turbo_J]

I'm not either, but my first play through was my canon Shep and she in no way shape or form would diminish the fates of millions by morning the loss of a single child. In fact, I know something was up because I lost control of my Shepard within the first 30 minutes of the game. Her reaction was so OOC for a marine I was livid. It actually broke my immersion, but I trudged on.

The dream did it again. I'm was seriously like. F this kid (followed by getting yelled at by my daughter). Shep wouldn't dream about this little ****. Maybe the Virmire loss, but this kid out of nowhere. Amy's a Paragde but she'd 'suffer losses' to get the job done; including Kenny and pandas.

[ZerebusPrime]

I cast incinerate into that stupid duct so many times...

Also shot Incinerate at the Reapers in Vancouver. You can actually hit them, too.

[FellishBeast]

Salient Archer wrote...


Ok, So now that I have your attention this'll hopefully be the last time I have to post anything about the often misinterpreted final hours quote. After scrounging the internet, twitter feeds, art books, game guide and naturally the final hours app itself I've concluded that there's only one piece of evidence anti-ITers can possible use and it is actually more supportive of Shepard's indoctrination. Anyway, I hope my post proves [hopefully] once and for all that the app never once states that Shep isn't indoctrinated.

Firstly the quoted section itself:

"...In truth the final bits of dialogue were debated right up until the end of 2011. Martin Sheen's voice-over session for the Illusive Man, originally scheduled for August, was delayed until mid-November so the writers would have more time to finesse the ending. And even in November the gameplay team was still experimenting with an endgame sequence where players would suddenly loose control of Shepard's movements and fall under full Reaper control. (This sequence was ultimately dropped because the gameplay mechanic proved too troublesome to implement alongside dialogue choices.) With the ending coming together the team took a few days off over the holidays in December to regroup and decompress...

So firstly, find for me anywhere in that paragraph where it says outright that the planned concept of Commander Shepard's indoctrination was ever dropped? Or even that the dialogue options that would reflect it would be? - That's right, it doesn't ever say that the indoctrination was ever dropped but it does state that they planned that Shepard would be in the end game and it never says that they broke away from that idea. It only ever says that the Game Mechanic associated to it was, the game mechanic of the player loosing control was dropped but not the indoctrination idea itself.

Lets break it down ... hammer-time.

Firstly there’s this: “...The gameplay team was still experimenting with an endgame sequence where players would suddenly loose control of Shepard’s movements and fall under full Reaper control...”

So we know that BioWare absolutely intended for Shep to be indoctrinated during the endgame, so the point so many anti-ITers make that BioWare aren’t clever enough to come up with the ITD is really far from the truth.

“...(This sequence was ultimately dropped because the gameplay mechanic proved too troublesome to implement alongside dialogue choices.)...”

I assume most people haven't learnt how to read because they often state the line as “The Indoctrination of Shepard was dropped”, but not once does this line ever indicate this, it actually just reinforces the fact that BW wanted to make the process more subtle, personal and engaging opposed to shoehorning an ad hoc gameplay element. All that sentence actually says is that the mechanic of having the game suddenly take away control from the player was dropped but not the indoctrination of Shepard itself. It also says that it was hard to implement ALONG with the dialogue choices, but it never says that the related dialogue choices were ever removed and hence we are still presented them in the game during the end sequence, remember Martin Sheen was the last VA to record and his lines were actually recorded 'before' they dropped the game mechanic as evidenced in the App and Twitter posts from the developers themselves, meaning that the plan of indoctrinating Shepard was in execution during the time of recording Martin's lines.

Feel free to argue or try and disprove anything I've just posted but I'm feeling pretty cocky about this one.

Awesome post, man! Very well written and addresses some great points.

I completely agree with this. It actually almost looks like this was put into the app to actually hint at what we're suspecting...because people who are indoctrinated don't usually realize it...so if they made it obvious Shep was being indoctrinated, that would just be silly, wouldn't it? The way they (perhaps) implemented it in actuality effectively indoctrinates the player as well, which is much more immersive and artistic, in my opinion.

The idea that they ever intended to make you blatantly lose control due to IT and make it a gameplay element is what seems absurd to me.

[Turbo_J]

Ah crap.

ME1

Shep: "What happens when a Specter goes Rouge, like Saren?"

Anderson: "It doesn't happen often. The council is careful when selecting their candidates. But when something does go wrong, there's usually only one solution. Send another Specter to bring the rouge agent down."

Could the final battle of indoctrination after the 'choice' in ME3 be a Specter vs. Specter situation; a Saren vs Shep roll reversal... Or could it crop up eventually based on choice as we traverse the DLC? Do you have enough Reputation and Paragon/Renegade points to, not only bring yourself back from the brink, but survive or talk your way out of a possible confrontation with the 'good' Specter sent to hunt you down? This could even be the VS if you didn't kill them or let them die.

Reputation has to be there for some reason we are yet aware of...

Yikes!

Modifié par Turbo_J, 20 juin 2012 - 01:37 .

[D.Sharrah]

FellishBeast wrote...

Salient Archer wrote...


Snip...

Awesome post, man! Very well written and addresses some great points.

I completely agree with this. It actually almost looks like this was put into the app to actually hint at what we're suspecting...because people who are indoctrinated don't usually realize it...so if they made it obvious Shep was being indoctrinated, that would just be silly, wouldn't it? The way they (perhaps) implemented it in actuality effectively indoctrinates the player as well, which is much more immersive and artistic, in my opinion.

The idea that they ever intended to make you blatantly lose control due to IT and make it a gameplay element is what seems absurd to me.

I posted this earlier today, it is along the same line that Salient is highlighting...

First...it looks like there was some good discussion after I went to bed last night...kudos to all involved. That being said, I am not going to try to read the pages I missed to try to catch up. Which means if what I bring up again in this post has been talked to death, I do apologize, And without further ado...

Last night I very briefly mentioned something that was bothering me about one of the things from the "Final Hours" App. It was a statement that suggested that during the final hours of production Bioware made a decision to pull th plug on a game mechanic that they had been working on. Of course I am referring to the idea that they were considering IT all along and they had a game mechanic where we the players would "lose control of Shepard". The app goes onto to say that they pulled the plug on this gameplay mechanic because they (Bioware) were having trouble finding a way to implement this along with their conventional dialogue system.

It would seem on the surface that this is a rather valid observation. And is often used by Anti-IT'ers as "evidence" that IT can't be true. As many have pointed out this is quite silly in its own right, because they are misinterperting what the app says. The app says that the game mechanic was scrapped - and they take that to mean that IT was scrapped. They are extrapolating from the given data to come to a conclusion, that may very well be wrong. And no matter what we say, they don't want to admit that they might be wrong. It could be enough to stop there, but I think this deserves more attention.

Getting back to the game mechanic being scrapped statement, is this true? This point is what I brought up last night - I asked if the confrontation with TIM could be viewed as an in game example of what this mechanic would look like. And the one answer that I saw (and again I apologize if there were more answers later), was maybe. I don't remember exactly who stated it (BatmanTurian?) or what the exact words were, but it was something like, "It was supposed to be Harbinger, but maybe they changed it to TIM". Again, this could be a fair enough point to stop, but if we do then we could miss how it actually fits into how they designed that sequence and the entire game.

First of all, assuming that we are right about IT and that the TIM confrontation is an example of the mechanic in question - then that sequence is about indoctrination. And when interperting what we see from the viewpoint, then TIM is not the one exerting control - but it is the Reapers (most likely Harbinger as the culprit who is doing the indoctrinating). Following IT, then we know what we perceive as TIM's space magic control of Shep - is actually the Reapers twisting Shep's perception in their attempt to indoctrinate him.

But were still not done. The app clearly states that the mechanic was tossed out of the game because Bioware was having trouble figuring out a way to implement the mechanic without compromising the dialogue system. What if rather than tossing out the "lose control" mechanic, they changed the dialogue system so that it would fit better? I know one of the big complaints when the game came out was the rampant use of auto-dialogue. People felt that it took control away from them, didn't give them the choice that they once had (and I don't think that those feelings are wrong). But what if it was done throughout the entire game, so that when we get to this watershed moment - it didn't stick out.

I know that we have tried to interpret all the pre-release clues in different ways - and I am not sure that we have them completely nailed down yet. But is it possible that the "red herring" is the "Final Hours" app? And that we were meant to misinterpret the information presented or take it for granted that it was "truth"...all so that we were thrown off the IT trail?

Sorry for the wall of text (hope that is formatted so it is an easier read). Please read and let me know what you think.

[paxxton]

Turbo_J wrote...

Ah crap.

ME1

Shep: "What happens when a Specter goes Rouge, like Saren?"

Anderson: "It doesn't happen often. The council is careful when selecting their candidates. But when something does go wrong, there's usually only one solution. Send another Specter to bring the rouge agent down."

Could the final battle of indoctrination after the 'choice' in ME3 be a Specter vs. Specter situation; a Saren vs Shep roll reversal... Or could it crop up eventually based on choice as we traverse the DLC? Do you have enough Reputation and Paragon/Renegade points to, not only bring yourself back from the brink, but survive or talk your way out of a possible confrontation with the 'good' Specter sent to hunt you down? This could even be the VS if you didn't kill them or let them die.

Reputation has to be there for some reason we are yet aware of...

Yikes!

Fighting Ash or Kaidan? Wow, that would be powerful. Imagine what would they shout during the battle. Perhaps, before that there would be a chat resembling the one with TIM to talk Shepard out of indoctrination. Of course, the player would try to persuade the VS that he made the right choice.

[D.Sharrah]

Bill Casey wrote...

D.Sharrah wrote...

But were still not done. The app clearly states that the mechanic was tossed out of the game because Bioware was having trouble figuring out a way to implement the mechanic without compromising the dialogue system. What if rather than tossing out the "lose control" mechanic, they changed the dialogue system so that it would fit better?

Or they just had Shepard stand in one place...

But its not just that Shep stand in one place...he also is "forced" to shoot Anderson.  Even if you believe that this is part of his hallucination caused by the indoctrination attempt - it is a good example of how they could implement the mechanic in question.  Now, I will admit that this is jusy MHO and one possible interpertation.  But as I state later in the post given our attempts to figure out the pre-release clues, I think that the veracity of this particular statement in question - may point to the "Final Hours" app is being a possible source for the "red herring".

[Dwailing]

Turbo_J wrote...

I'm not either, but my first play through was my canon Shep and she in no way shape or form would diminish the fates of millions by morning the loss of a single child. In fact, I know something was up because I lost control of my Shepard within the first 30 minutes of the game. Her reaction was so OOC for a marine I was livid. It actually broke my immersion, but I trudged on.

The dream did it again. I'm was seriously like. F this kid (followed by getting yelled at by my daughter). Shep wouldn't dream about this little ****. Maybe the Virmire loss, but this kid out of nowhere. Amy's a Paragde but she'd 'suffer losses' to get the job done; including Kenny and pandas.

Yeah, that's the truth.  I'll admit, I cried when I saw the child die the first time.  I still cry when I see him die, though I'll blame THAT on the music (Leaving Earth is such a moving piece, isn't it?).  The big thing with the kid, for me anyway, is this.  He's just one kid.  Depending on what background you chose, Shepard had probably seen dozens of dead civilians, and more than a few dead kids.  Look at the Colonist background.  Shepard saw his colony destroyed, his family killed, and countless innocents, many of them kids I'd guess, killed or turned into slaves.  And you're going to tell me that ONE KID caused him this much trauma?  No, that's crazy, if you ask me.  

[paxxton]

According to The Art of Mass Effect Universe the kid is meant as a symbol of all the people Shepard lost or couldn't have saved.

Modifié par paxxton, 20 juin 2012 - 01:49 .

[Turbo_J]

paxxton wrote...

Turbo_J wrote...

Ah crap.

ME1

Shep: "What happens when a Specter goes Rouge, like Saren?"

Anderson: "It doesn't happen often. The council is careful when selecting their candidates. But when something does go wrong, there's usually only one solution. Send another Specter to bring the rouge agent down."

Could the final battle of indoctrination after the 'choice' in ME3 be a Specter vs. Specter situation; a Saren vs Shep roll reversal... Or could it crop up eventually based on choice as we traverse the DLC? Do you have enough Reputation and Paragon/Renegade points to, not only bring yourself back from the brink, but survive or talk your way out of a possible confrontation with the 'good' Specter sent to hunt you down? This could even be the VS if you didn't kill them or let them die.

Reputation has to be there for some reason we are yet aware of...

Yikes!

Fighting Ash or Kaidan? Wow, that would be powerful. Imagine what would they shout during the battle. Perhaps, before that there would be a chat resembling the one with TIM to talk Shepard out of indoctrination. Of course, the player would try to persuade the VS that he made the right choice.

Yeah, very powerful. I can't say it would be any less so if it was Jondum Bau or Kirrahe. No matter how bad things get, at least one of the Specters we see in our travels will likely be alive. Jondum does not fill Thane or Kirrahe's shoes to save the Salarian Councilor... alway wondered why not; if he lives though the Hanar Diplomat mission.

[Dwailing]

paxxton wrote...

According to The Art of Mass Effect Universe, the kid is meant as a symbol of all the people Shepard lost or couldn't have saved.

Yeah, I know that, but it still seems weird that he's so obsessed this one kid.  If he's feeling the losses of others, then why not show them?  Why is it that all we get are whispers?  If he's in pain over the death of, say, Kaidan/Ashley, why not show Kaidan/Ashley in a dream?  Why is it all we see is the kid?  

[paxxton]

Turbo_J wrote...

paxxton wrote...

Turbo_J wrote...

Ah crap.

ME1

Shep: "What happens when a Specter goes Rouge, like Saren?"

Anderson: "It doesn't happen often. The council is careful when selecting their candidates. But when something does go wrong, there's usually only one solution. Send another Specter to bring the rouge agent down."

Could the final battle of indoctrination after the 'choice' in ME3 be a Specter vs. Specter situation; a Saren vs Shep roll reversal... Or could it crop up eventually based on choice as we traverse the DLC? Do you have enough Reputation and Paragon/Renegade points to, not only bring yourself back from the brink, but survive or talk your way out of a possible confrontation with the 'good' Specter sent to hunt you down? This could even be the VS if you didn't kill them or let them die.

Reputation has to be there for some reason we are yet aware of...

Yikes!

Fighting Ash or Kaidan? Wow, that would be powerful. Imagine what would they shout during the battle. Perhaps, before that there would be a chat resembling the one with TIM to talk Shepard out of indoctrination. Of course, the player would try to persuade the VS that he made the right choice.

Yeah, very powerful. I can't say it would be any less so if it was Jondum Bau or Kirrahe. No matter how bad things get, at least one of the Specters we see in our travels will likely be alive. Jondum does not fill Thane or Kirrahe's shoes to save the Salarian Councilor... alway wondered why not; if he lives though the Hanar Diplomat mission.

Kirrahe is a Spectre?

[paxxton]

Dwailing wrote...

paxxton wrote...

According to The Art of Mass Effect Universe, the kid is meant as a symbol of all the people Shepard lost or couldn't have saved.

Yeah, I know that, but it still seems weird that he's so obsessed this one kid.  If he's feeling the losses of others, then why not show them?  Why is it that all we get are whispers?  If he's in pain over the death of, say, Kaidan/Ashley, why not show Kaidan/Ashley in a dream?  Why is it all we see is the kid?  

Because a symbol works that way. It substitutes everything it symbolizes. That's the justification outside of IT. In IT he's the taint of indoctrination.

[paxxton]

D.Sharrah wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

D.Sharrah wrote...

But were still not done. The app clearly states that the mechanic was tossed out of the game because Bioware was having trouble figuring out a way to implement the mechanic without compromising the dialogue system. What if rather than tossing out the "lose control" mechanic, they changed the dialogue system so that it would fit better?

Or they just had Shepard stand in one place...

But its not just that Shep stand in one place...he also is "forced" to shoot Anderson.  Even if you believe that this is part of his hallucination caused by the indoctrination attempt - it is a good example of how they could implement the mechanic in question.  Now, I will admit that this is jusy MHO and one possible interpertation.  But as I state later in the post given our attempts to figure out the pre-release clues, I think that the veracity of this particular statement in question - may point to the "Final Hours" app is being a possible source for the "red herring".

I posted this earlier.

paxxton wrote...

I agree that basically what we see is very similar to what they originally wanted to achieve. It always seemed strange to me that they considered that gameplay mechanic troublesome because honestly most cutscenes in Mass Effect are made that way (we have limited control over Shepard). Taking it one step further is not something that can't be done (either as a cutscene with dialogue choices or as a movie that unfolds according to your previous choices during the game). Though I think it's a bit far-fetched to suggest they changed the WHOLE dialogue system for a single scene. More so, that the change is for the worse not for the better (but perhaps they wanted to make ME3 more movie-like anyway)

Modifié par paxxton, 20 juin 2012 - 01:59 .

[Turbo_J]

Dwailing wrote...

Turbo_J wrote...

I'm not either, but my first play through was my canon Shep and she in no way shape or form would diminish the fates of millions by morning the loss of a single child. In fact, I know something was up because I lost control of my Shepard within the first 30 minutes of the game. Her reaction was so OOC for a marine I was livid. It actually broke my immersion, but I trudged on.

The dream did it again. I'm was seriously like. F this kid (followed by getting yelled at by my daughter). Shep wouldn't dream about this little ****. Maybe the Virmire loss, but this kid out of nowhere. Amy's a Paragde but she'd 'suffer losses' to get the job done; including Kenny and pandas.

Yeah, that's the truth.  I'll admit, I cried when I saw the child die the first time.  I still cry when I see him die, though I'll blame THAT on the music (Leaving Earth is such a moving piece, isn't it?).  The big thing with the kid, for me anyway, is this.  He's just one kid.  Depending on what background you chose, Shepard had probably seen dozens of dead civilians, and more than a few dead kids.  Look at the Colonist background.  Shepard saw his colony destroyed, his family killed, and countless innocents, many of them kids I'd guess, killed or turned into slaves.  And you're going to tell me that ONE KID caused him this much trauma?  No, that's crazy, if you ask me.  

Yeah... I actually have a Blitz back story for Amy. She used civilians as cannon fodder pre breach, setting small groups up as diversion squads so the few experienced people she could find could flank the enemy as they entered a kill zone. She'd trail the mercs and take out any trying to flee the kill zone.

As a leader, you have a job to do. Keeping everyone alive is not it.

Modifié par Turbo_J, 20 juin 2012 - 01:59 .

[D.Sharrah]

paxxton wrote...

Turbo_J wrote...

Ah crap.

ME1

Shep: "What happens when a Specter goes Rouge, like Saren?"

Anderson: "It doesn't happen often. The council is careful when selecting their candidates. But when something does go wrong, there's usually only one solution. Send another Specter to bring the rouge agent down."

Could the final battle of indoctrination after the 'choice' in ME3 be a Specter vs. Specter situation; a Saren vs Shep roll reversal... Or could it crop up eventually based on choice as we traverse the DLC? Do you have enough Reputation and Paragon/Renegade points to, not only bring yourself back from the brink, but survive or talk your way out of a possible confrontation with the 'good' Specter sent to hunt you down? This could even be the VS if you didn't kill them or let them die.

Reputation has to be there for some reason we are yet aware of...

Yikes!

Fighting Ash or Kaidan? Wow, that would be powerful. Imagine what would they shout during the battle. Perhaps, before that there would be a chat resembling the one with TIM to talk Shepard out of indoctrination. Of course, the player would try to persuade the VS that he made the right choice.

Hellish had a great post about this kind of thing early (in regards to Anderson)  and why I won't pretend to lay it down as eloquently as he did...it went something like this, if you are going to have a character that has been a hero for the entire story, turn traitor, you better give them a moment of redemption.  So following this suggesting if Shep does become indoctrinated (especially given that not only he has been the hero - but the main protagonist), you are damn right that there better be a way that he can be redeemed.  A perfect example can be taken from Bioware's past in how they handled the Revan twist when the player chooses "light side".

[D.Sharrah]

paxxton wrote...

D.Sharrah wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

D.Sharrah wrote...

But were still not done. The app clearly states that the mechanic was tossed out of the game because Bioware was having trouble figuring out a way to implement the mechanic without compromising the dialogue system. What if rather than tossing out the "lose control" mechanic, they changed the dialogue system so that it would fit better?

Or they just had Shepard stand in one place...

But its not just that Shep stand in one place...he also is "forced" to shoot Anderson.  Even if you believe that this is part of his hallucination caused by the indoctrination attempt - it is a good example of how they could implement the mechanic in question.  Now, I will admit that this is jusy MHO and one possible interpertation.  But as I state later in the post given our attempts to figure out the pre-release clues, I think that the veracity of this particular statement in question - may point to the "Final Hours" app is being a possible source for the "red herring".

I posted this earlier.

paxxton wrote...

I agree that basically what we see is very similar to what they originally wanted to achieve. It always seemed strange to me that they considered that gameplay mechanic troublesome because honestly most cutscenes in Mass Effect are made that way (we have limited control over Shepard). Taking it one step further is not something that can't be done (either as a cutscene with dialogue choices or as a movie that unfolds according to your previous choices during the game). Though I think it's a bit far-fetched to suggest they changed the WHOLE dialogue system for a single scene. More so, that the change is for the worse not for the better (but perhaps they wanted to make ME3 more movie-like anyway)

I remember it was just that Salient's post brought it all up again...and not everyone was around earlier.

And I do concede that it is speculation on my part...that scene just seems to fit the description in the app.  And if it is the mechanic...then what does it mean?

[paxxton]

D.Sharrah wrote...

paxxton wrote...

Turbo_J wrote...

Ah crap.

ME1

Shep: "What happens when a Specter goes Rouge, like Saren?"

Anderson: "It doesn't happen often. The council is careful when selecting their candidates. But when something does go wrong, there's usually only one solution. Send another Specter to bring the rouge agent down."

Could the final battle of indoctrination after the 'choice' in ME3 be a Specter vs. Specter situation; a Saren vs Shep roll reversal... Or could it crop up eventually based on choice as we traverse the DLC? Do you have enough Reputation and Paragon/Renegade points to, not only bring yourself back from the brink, but survive or talk your way out of a possible confrontation with the 'good' Specter sent to hunt you down? This could even be the VS if you didn't kill them or let them die.

Reputation has to be there for some reason we are yet aware of...

Yikes!

Fighting Ash or Kaidan? Wow, that would be powerful. Imagine what would they shout during the battle. Perhaps, before that there would be a chat resembling the one with TIM to talk Shepard out of indoctrination. Of course, the player would try to persuade the VS that he made the right choice.

Hellish had a great post about this kind of thing early (in regards to Anderson)  and why I won't pretend to lay it down as eloquently as he did...it went something like this, if you are going to have a character that has been a hero for the entire story, turn traitor, you better give them a moment of redemption.  So following this suggesting if Shep does become indoctrinated (especially given that not only he has been the hero - but the main protagonist), you are damn right that there better be a way that he can be redeemed.  A perfect example can be taken from Bioware's past in how they handled the Revan twist when the player chooses "light side".

But it's Shepard who turns evil in this case. Not the VS. Assuming that the only right choice is Destroy Shepards who chose otherwise are becoming indoctrinated.

Modifié par paxxton, 20 juin 2012 - 02:15 .

[Turbo_J]

paxxton wrote...

Kirrahe is a Spectre?

No, high ranking STG Black Ops Captain. As close as you can get really. He'd probably be a candidate, but I doubt he'd accept.

[D.Sharrah]

Turbo_J wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

Turbo_J wrote...

I'm not either, but my first play through was my canon Shep and she in no way shape or form would diminish the fates of millions by morning the loss of a single child. In fact, I know something was up because I lost control of my Shepard within the first 30 minutes of the game. Her reaction was so OOC for a marine I was livid. It actually broke my immersion, but I trudged on.

The dream did it again. I'm was seriously like. F this kid (followed by getting yelled at by my daughter). Shep wouldn't dream about this little ****. Maybe the Virmire loss, but this kid out of nowhere. Amy's a Paragde but she'd 'suffer losses' to get the job done; including Kenny and pandas.

Yeah, that's the truth.  I'll admit, I cried when I saw the child die the first time.  I still cry when I see him die, though I'll blame THAT on the music (Leaving Earth is such a moving piece, isn't it?).  The big thing with the kid, for me anyway, is this.  He's just one kid.  Depending on what background you chose, Shepard had probably seen dozens of dead civilians, and more than a few dead kids.  Look at the Colonist background.  Shepard saw his colony destroyed, his family killed, and countless innocents, many of them kids I'd guess, killed or turned into slaves.  And you're going to tell me that ONE KID caused him this much trauma?  No, that's crazy, if you ask me.  

Yeah... I actually have a Blitz back story for Amy. She used civilians as cannon fodder pre breach, setting small groups up as diversion squads so the few experienced people she could find could flank the enemy as they entered a kill zone. She'd trail the mercs and take out any trying to flee the kill zone.

As a leader, you have a job to do. Keeping everyone alive is not it.

It's funny how much the origin stories really play into how I "play" my Shep...Earthborn Ruthless = Renegade, Spacer War Hero = Paragon, Colonist Sole Survivor - Paragade/Renegon (w/e you want to call it)

[D.Sharrah]

paxxton wrote...

D.Sharrah wrote...

paxxton wrote...

Turbo_J wrote...

Ah crap.

ME1

Shep: "What happens when a Specter goes Rouge, like Saren?"

Anderson: "It doesn't happen often. The council is careful when selecting their candidates. But when something does go wrong, there's usually only one solution. Send another Specter to bring the rouge agent down."

Could the final battle of indoctrination after the 'choice' in ME3 be a Specter vs. Specter situation; a Saren vs Shep roll reversal... Or could it crop up eventually based on choice as we traverse the DLC? Do you have enough Reputation and Paragon/Renegade points to, not only bring yourself back from the brink, but survive or talk your way out of a possible confrontation with the 'good' Specter sent to hunt you down? This could even be the VS if you didn't kill them or let them die.

Reputation has to be there for some reason we are yet aware of...

Yikes!

Fighting Ash or Kaidan? Wow, that would be powerful. Imagine what would they shout during the battle. Perhaps, before that there would be a chat resembling the one with TIM to talk Shepard out of indoctrination. Of course, the player would try to persuade the VS that he made the right choice.

Hellish had a great post about this kind of thing early (in regards to Anderson)  and why I won't pretend to lay it down as eloquently as he did...it went something like this, if you are going to have a character that has been a hero for the entire story, turn traitor, you better give them a moment of redemption.  So following this suggesting if Shep does become indoctrinated (especially given that not only he has been the hero - but the main protagonist), you are damn right that there better be a way that he can be redeemed.  A perfect example can be taken from Bioware's past in how they handled the Revan twist when the player chooses "light side".

But it's Shepard who turns evil in this case. Not the VS. Assuming that the only right choice is Destroy Shepards who chose otherwise are becoming indoctrinated.

Did you notice the bolded section?  I was talking about Shep...where's Hellish when you need him - he would have explained it so much better.

[paxxton]

D.Sharrah wrote...

paxxton wrote...

D.Sharrah wrote...

paxxton wrote...

Turbo_J wrote...

Ah crap.

ME1

Shep: "What happens when a Specter goes Rouge, like Saren?"

Anderson: "It doesn't happen often. The council is careful when selecting their candidates. But when something does go wrong, there's usually only one solution. Send another Specter to bring the rouge agent down."

Could the final battle of indoctrination after the 'choice' in ME3 be a Specter vs. Specter situation; a Saren vs Shep roll reversal... Or could it crop up eventually based on choice as we traverse the DLC? Do you have enough Reputation and Paragon/Renegade points to, not only bring yourself back from the brink, but survive or talk your way out of a possible confrontation with the 'good' Specter sent to hunt you down? This could even be the VS if you didn't kill them or let them die.

Reputation has to be there for some reason we are yet aware of...

Yikes!

Fighting Ash or Kaidan? Wow, that would be powerful. Imagine what would they shout during the battle. Perhaps, before that there would be a chat resembling the one with TIM to talk Shepard out of indoctrination. Of course, the player would try to persuade the VS that he made the right choice.

Hellish had a great post about this kind of thing early (in regards to Anderson)  and why I won't pretend to lay it down as eloquently as he did...it went something like this, if you are going to have a character that has been a hero for the entire story, turn traitor, you better give them a moment of redemption.  So following this suggesting if Shep does become indoctrinated (especially given that not only he has been the hero - but the main protagonist), you are damn right that there better be a way that he can be redeemed.  A perfect example can be taken from Bioware's past in how they handled the Revan twist when the player chooses "light side".

But it's Shepard who turns evil in this case. Not the VS. Assuming that the only right choice is Destroy Shepards who chose otherwise are becoming indoctrinated.

Did you notice the bolded section?  I was talking about Shep...where's Hellish when you need him - he would have explained it so much better.

LOL. I must have been inattentive while reading. Sorry.

Actually, it was my post that provoked HellishFiend's response and I agree that there needs to be some form of closure for a character. It would go like this: the VS tried to evade this, is very sorry and displeased but has to kill Shepard because he leaves him/her no choice.

Modifié par paxxton, 20 juin 2012 - 02:17 .