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[Destructorlio]

BatmanTurian wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

Someone asked me in a PM if I ever have doubts about IT, and I figured you guys might be interested in my response:

Never doubted for more than a few seconds. Anytime I see anything circumstantially "tangible" that lends itself against IT in any way, I remind myself that from a narrative standpoint, IT makes 100% sense. All of the issues that people have with IT are based on non-narrative concerns. IT is quite literally, narrative nirvana. Or in common terms, the best damn storytelling experience ever conveyed through a videogame.

Now, what is Bioware's stance on the issue? Theyre sticking with their "Artistic vision" and "not changing the ending". That screams of narrative being their primary concern. I see that as one of the biggest hints toward IT, but unfortunately many ME players are not connoisseurs of literature, so that sort of hint flies over their head.

But rest assured, as someone that understands and appreciates narrative flow and subtlety, as well as being highly versed in the art of hiding lies within truths using semantics and secret context (dont ask how, lol, its a long, clandestine story), I can essentially promise you that IT is correct.

These are my thoughts down to the letter on IT. IT is narratively viable and the one thing in the series the player has never experienced except from the outside looking in on people who were already indoctrinated. It's capable of turning you against yourself and using your own personality to agree with the Reapers on a Meta level. Why else are there Synthesis and Control threads? Bioware is probably on top of the world knowing their interactive story element experiment accomplished probably more than they ever imagined

+1 to both of these. We may have the details wrong, but I am convinced we have the substance right.

[HellishFiend]

D.Sharrah wrote...

paxxton wrote...

D.Sharrah wrote...

paxxton wrote...

Turbo_J wrote...

Ah crap.

ME1

Shep: "What happens when a Specter goes Rouge, like Saren?"

Anderson: "It doesn't happen often. The council is careful when selecting their candidates. But when something does go wrong, there's usually only one solution. Send another Specter to bring the rouge agent down."

Could the final battle of indoctrination after the 'choice' in ME3 be a Specter vs. Specter situation; a Saren vs Shep roll reversal... Or could it crop up eventually based on choice as we traverse the DLC? Do you have enough Reputation and Paragon/Renegade points to, not only bring yourself back from the brink, but survive or talk your way out of a possible confrontation with the 'good' Specter sent to hunt you down? This could even be the VS if you didn't kill them or let them die.

Reputation has to be there for some reason we are yet aware of...

Yikes!

Fighting Ash or Kaidan? Wow, that would be powerful. Imagine what would they shout during the battle. Perhaps, before that there would be a chat resembling the one with TIM to talk Shepard out of indoctrination. Of course, the player would try to persuade the VS that he made the right choice.

Hellish had a great post about this kind of thing early (in regards to Anderson)  and why I won't pretend to lay it down as eloquently as he did...it went something like this, if you are going to have a character that has been a hero for the entire story, turn traitor, you better give them a moment of redemption.  So following this suggesting if Shep does become indoctrinated (especially given that not only he has been the hero - but the main protagonist), you are damn right that there better be a way that he can be redeemed.  A perfect example can be taken from Bioware's past in how they handled the Revan twist when the player chooses "light side".

But it's Shepard who turns evil in this case. Not the VS. Assuming that the only right choice is Destroy Shepards who chose otherwise are becoming indoctrinated.

Did you notice the bolded section?  I was talking about Shep...where's Hellish when you need him - he would have explained it so much better.

You called? 

Long story short, the same narrative requirements dont necessarily apply to Shep in this case because he can have vastly different endings, and one of those being the narrative equivalent of Critical Mission Failure is fair game.

What I was referring to is when you take a supporting character of what I consider to be the "pillar of support" archetype and then shoehorn his character into a trite role of betrayal for the sake of a plot twist. That's a horrible mistake in any sort of lengthy story, but it would be narrative suicide in a trilogy. Retrospect and subsequent consumption of the narrative would be soured by the knowledge of that pillar's ultimate fate, and the bitter role they play at the end. If you give them redemption or vindication though, that bitterness can turn into bittersweet, which is fair game for an author that knows how to wield that sort of twist with tact and finesse. 

[paxxton]

D.Sharrah wrote...

paxxton wrote...

D.Sharrah wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

D.Sharrah wrote...

But were still not done. The app clearly states that the mechanic was tossed out of the game because Bioware was having trouble figuring out a way to implement the mechanic without compromising the dialogue system. What if rather than tossing out the "lose control" mechanic, they changed the dialogue system so that it would fit better?

Or they just had Shepard stand in one place...

But its not just that Shep stand in one place...he also is "forced" to shoot Anderson.  Even if you believe that this is part of his hallucination caused by the indoctrination attempt - it is a good example of how they could implement the mechanic in question.  Now, I will admit that this is jusy MHO and one possible interpertation.  But as I state later in the post given our attempts to figure out the pre-release clues, I think that the veracity of this particular statement in question - may point to the "Final Hours" app is being a possible source for the "red herring".

I posted this earlier.

paxxton wrote...

I agree that basically what we see is very similar to what they originally wanted to achieve. It always seemed strange to me that they considered that gameplay mechanic troublesome because honestly most cutscenes in Mass Effect are made that way (we have limited control over Shepard). Taking it one step further is not something that can't be done (either as a cutscene with dialogue choices or as a movie that unfolds according to your previous choices during the game). Though I think it's a bit far-fetched to suggest they changed the WHOLE dialogue system for a single scene. More so, that the change is for the worse not for the better (but perhaps they wanted to make ME3 more movie-like anyway)

I remember it was just that Salient's post brought it all up again...and not everyone was around earlier.

And I do concede that it is speculation on my part...that scene just seems to fit the description in the app.  And if it is the mechanic...then what does it mean?

So I just can't believe they would change the whole dialogue system for the worse only to fit a single scene, however an important one.

From what I understoof from the FH app, they said they scrapped the whole concept. Considering the current ending is similar to what they described there that text in the FH is simply a red herring to not give away IT.

Modifié par paxxton, 20 juin 2012 - 02:42 .

[HellishFiend]

Since the thread is moving slow right now, figured I would paste this here from my discussion board thread for people to see:

I've unofficially decided to attach the moniker "Choose Wisely" to my series of videos that I make prior to EC, however many that may be. In at least one of those videos, I may include a 100% voluntary opt-in list for people that want to be listed as a "Choose Wisely"/IT supporter. No contribution is necessary. Being associated with "Choose Wisely" will essentially just be visibly putting your name up for posterity's sake, for better or for worse.

Anyone wanting to opt-in, simply post in this topic. If you want me to use anything other than your BSN username, make sure to specify.

Thanks!

Lurkers, this can apply to you too, if you would like to opt-in. If youre not in the IT discussion group, you're welcome to either join it, or just PM me if you would like to be on the list.

Modifié par HellishFiend, 20 juin 2012 - 02:42 .

[SwiftSlash]

Lurked for pages and pages. Figure I'd add something. Don't know that it has much significance or not.

Replaying ME1 and I had Kaiden with me through the Presidium. Passing by the conduit's relay, Kaiden says: "Anyone hear that hum? Sounds like it is coming from that statue. Makes my teeth tingle."

Sorry if it's been discussed, but thought I would throw it in the blender for you people.

[paxxton]

SwiftSlash wrote...

Lurked for pages and pages. Figure I'd add something. Don't know that it has much significance or not.

Replaying ME1 and I had Kaiden with me through the Presidium. Passing by the conduit's relay, Kaiden says: "Anyone hear that hum? Sounds like it is coming from that statue. Makes my teeth tingle."

Sorry if it's been discussed, but thought I would throw it in the blender for you people.

Considering that the relay was built by the Protheans (not the Reapers) and still emits a hum (which is a sign of indoctrination) it is logical to conclude that the relay technology may have an inherent property - emission of indoctrination signals.

[HellishFiend]

paxxton wrote...
Considering that the relay was built by the Protheans (not the Reapers) and still emits a hum (which is a sign of indoctrination) it is logical to conclude that the relay technology may have an inherent property - emission of indoctrination signals.

That's pure assumption, but not necessarily an illogical one. 

[LazyTechGuy]

Or .. sometimes things just hum.

[SwiftSlash]

Side note, maybe Kaiden should go to the dentist...Or at least barrow Traynor's mass effect field emitting toothbrush.

[HellishFiend]

LazyTechGuy wrote...

Or .. sometimes things just hum.

One does not simply.... hum.

j/k 

[paxxton]

HellishFiend wrote...

paxxton wrote...
Considering that the relay was built by the Protheans (not the Reapers) and still emits a hum (which is a sign of indoctrination) it is logical to conclude that the relay technology may have an inherent property - emission of indoctrination signals.

That's pure assumption, but not necessarily an illogical one. 

But this hypothesis is highly probable.  Why would only the Citadel have this capability, anyway?

Modifié par paxxton, 20 juin 2012 - 03:03 .

[Dwailing]

paxxton wrote...

HellishFiend wrote...

paxxton wrote...
Considering that the relay was built by the Protheans (not the Reapers) and still emits a hum (which is a sign of indoctrination) it is logical to conclude that the relay technology may have an inherent property - emission of indoctrination signals.

That's pure assumption, but not necessarily an illogical one. 

But this hypothesis is highly probable.  Why would only the Citadel have this capability, anyway?

Yeah, I agree.  I mean, think about it, no one KNOWS what piece of Reaper Tech is responsible for indoctrination.  When the Protheans created a miniature mass relay, it's quite possible that they accidentally copied the part that is responsible for indoctrination.  Yes, I know that it's never said that the relays cause indoctrination, but it seems like a perfectly resonable assumption, considering that almost all Reaper Tech that we've encountered emits an indoctrination signal of some sort.  One thing that I like about this is that, assuming this assumption to be true, it ties into the Crucible is a trap hypothesis that's been bouncing around lately.  Think about it, since we don't KNOW what piece of Reaper Tech is responsible for indoctrination, we could have built a massive indoctrination device without even knowing it!

Modifié par Dwailing, 20 juin 2012 - 03:09 .

[Taco Del Marr]

SwiftSlash wrote...

Lurked for pages and pages. Figure I'd add something. Don't know that it has much significance or not.

Replaying ME1 and I had Kaiden with me through the Presidium. Passing by the conduit's relay, Kaiden says: "Anyone hear that hum? Sounds like it is coming from that statue. Makes my teeth tingle."

Sorry if it's been discussed, but thought I would throw it in the blender for you people.

I believe that line was mearily used to forshadow that the statue was an dormant mass relay, if i recall correctly Garrus makes a comment as well saying the keepers don't pay attention to it. We all know the conduit was built by the protheans so I doubt it has the same inherent properties as reaper tech.

[HellishFiend]

 Thats why I say it's not an illogical assumption, but it's not really much of a theory without any direct supporting evidence... I'm just being objective, not trying to shoot the idea down. 

[HellishFiend]

magnetite wrote...

Has anyone figured out why the last mission is called "Citadel: The Return"? If the dream begins before Shepard gets to the Citadel (which is why we find him on Earth at the end), then why is the last mission called "Citadel: The Return"? Some theorize that Shepard never made it to the Citadel, and the last 20 minutes took place in his head, hence IT is born. Can't figure out the mission name though.

Never thought about it before. I assumed it was just an appropriate name for that last mission. If it symbolizes something though? It would have to be something within Shepard's psyche that he's returning to. Revisiting memories, perhaps.

[GethPrimeMKII]

HellishFiend wrote...

Since the thread is moving slow right now, figured I would paste this here from my discussion board thread for people to see:

I've unofficially decided to attach the moniker "Choose Wisely" to my series of videos that I make prior to EC, however many that may be. In at least one of those videos, I may include a 100% voluntary opt-in list for people that want to be listed as a "Choose Wisely"/IT supporter. No contribution is necessary. Being associated with "Choose Wisely" will essentially just be visibly putting your name up for posterity's sake, for better or for worse.

Anyone wanting to opt-in, simply post in this topic. If you want me to use anything other than your BSN username, make sure to specify.

Thanks!

Lurkers, this can apply to you too, if you would like to opt-in. If youre not in the IT discussion group, you're welcome to either join it, or just PM me if you would like to be on the list.

Aside from trying to "convert" the occasional skeptics in the multiplayer scene, my contributions to IT have been very small. If thats still not a problem I would love to be on this list.

Ok, back to shadow lurking the forums for me. 

[Naruana]

magnetite wrote...

Has anyone figured out why the last mission is called "Citadel: The Return"? If the dream begins before Shepard gets to the Citadel (which is why we find him on Earth at the end), then why is the last mission called "Citadel: The Return"? Some theorize that Shepard never made it to the Citadel, and the last 20 minutes took place in his head, hence IT is born. Can't figure out the mission name though.

I have wondered about that a bit. Who's returning, and what/where are they returning to? I guess the dullest answer is that Shepard is returning to the Citadel for the first time, but that's a bit droll. I honestly have no idea.

On another topic, if IT turns out to be true, how will you all feel about it? It's a brilliant bit of story-telling, but the truth is we paid for an unfinished game. I trust Bioware to not charge us for the ending, but I won't put that past EA.

[Naruana]

Honestly, I'm surprised EA let them get away with it. It's one hell of a ballsy move, and they nearly paid for it. I don't think they were expecting lawsuits.

[Dwailing]

HellishFiend wrote...

 Thats why I say it's not an illogical assumption, but it's not really much of a theory without any direct supporting evidence... I'm just being objective, not trying to shoot the idea down. 

I know, it's definitely a hypothesis, not a theory.  However, it's a really good hypothesis, if you ask me.  And until the EC comes out, I don't think we'll be able to come up with anything other than good hypothesis (Other than IT of course, which actually IS a theory in the scientific sense.).

[Dwailing]

HellishFiend wrote...

Since the thread is moving slow right now, figured I would paste this here from my discussion board thread for people to see:

I've unofficially decided to attach the moniker "Choose Wisely" to my series of videos that I make prior to EC, however many that may be. In at least one of those videos, I may include a 100% voluntary opt-in list for people that want to be listed as a "Choose Wisely"/IT supporter. No contribution is necessary. Being associated with "Choose Wisely" will essentially just be visibly putting your name up for posterity's sake, for better or for worse.

Anyone wanting to opt-in, simply post in this topic. If you want me to use anything other than your BSN username, make sure to specify.

Thanks!

Lurkers, this can apply to you too, if you would like to opt-in. If youre not in the IT discussion group, you're welcome to either join it, or just PM me if you would like to be on the list.

Would this be account name or real name?  'Cause I have NO problems whatsoever with you recording my account name for posterity.  That would be awesome.

Modifié par Dwailing, 20 juin 2012 - 03:34 .

[Naruana]

I've gotten the impression Bioware didn't have the story so fully planned out while they were working on ME1, at least as far as the ending of ME3 (which, according to the leaked script, was never going to involve indoctrination initially). So I don't think they would have been planting clues so early.

[Golferguy758]

HellishFiend wrote...

Since the thread is moving slow right now, figured I would paste this here from my discussion board thread for people to see:

I've unofficially decided to attach the moniker "Choose Wisely" to my series of videos that I make prior to EC, however many that may be. In at least one of those videos, I may include a 100% voluntary opt-in list for people that want to be listed as a "Choose Wisely"/IT supporter. No contribution is necessary. Being associated with "Choose Wisely" will essentially just be visibly putting your name up for posterity's sake, for better or for worse.

Anyone wanting to opt-in, simply post in this topic. If you want me to use anything other than your BSN username, make sure to specify.

Thanks!

Lurkers, this can apply to you too, if you would like to opt-in. If youre not in the IT discussion group, you're welcome to either join it, or just PM me if you would like to be on the list.

I can dig it. Regardless of Bioware "fleshing out" IT, IT will still be my head canon.