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[Overload_C14]

HagarIshay wrote...

nightcobra8928 wrote...

not really that different no, control and synthesis are both, IT or not, a way to compromise with the reapers.

Then why not give one choice instead of two, if the IT is right? 

Control is obviously dodgy, its a bit of a red herring. Bothdestroy and Control are shown as very extream (Even though the 3rd option is pretty screwed up when you think about it) Human nature will make you pick the middle road and this is the hardest to achive, so many would be drawn to belive that it must be the best.

[Ageless Face]

@nightcobra8928, @MegumiAzusa, @JestersShade,    @Overload_C14 

Thanks for the answers.

Modifié par HagarIshay, 20 juin 2012 - 12:44 .

[JestersShade]

HagarIshay wrote...

JestersShade wrote...

In the IT, you could think that only 2 choices, control or destroy, respectively represented by TIM and Anderson, could have had you side with Anderson.
But the existence of something "different" could be seen as a way of fooling the player into the same result as the "control" choice.

IMO.

Do you mean giving the idealist player a different choice, in case s/he wouldn't want to choose control, or will want a different choice?

Yes.

Only my point of view but, as said above, it's harder to choose between 3 than 2.
The synthesis is in the middle and not associated with some ideals (Anderson / TIM) so goes with the "ultimate solution" and the best choice... for those not willing to chose

Personnally, if I had only 2, I would have taken Destroy, but I took Synthesis, because Control didn't seem right, and Destroy would kill the Geth whereas in my game, I had stop the war between them and the Quarian so didn't feel right either to symply destroy them.

@Megumi : I hadn't thought of Saren's implants in the synthesis ... good catch!
--> In fact, I had seen it in the IT video and forgot it ^^

Modifié par JestersShade, 20 juin 2012 - 12:53 .

[estebanus]

I guess I can write HagarIshay down on my list of reasonable literalists!

[Ageless Face]

estebanus wrote...

I guess I can write HagarIshay down on my list of reasonable literalists!

I sure hope I am one! It would be quite arrogant of me to dislike the IT without at least try and understand it.

Besides, I think the IT is quite facinating, as much as I desagree with it. If BioWare actually planned it I really think they were geniuses. Won't even start about the fans who thought about it/discovered it. 

Modifié par HagarIshay, 20 juin 2012 - 01:08 .

[Rifneno]

Hmmm. I had a thought. We're told in Arrival that Kenson's indoctrination involved breaking down her will by torturing her over her past failures and mistakes. This is also how Shepard is indoctrinated for the most part. They keep harping on some damn kid that probably never existed to begin with.

People that didn't screw anything up too badly probably don't know this but you can end up having to face 3 former squad members. Jack, Legion, and Morinth. The first two are at Cronos Station and the last is in London. I think these appearances may be the same thing; the Reapers are torturing Shepard over terrible mistakes. All three of these encounters are past the Point of No Return meaning they're all highly suspect as to whether they were ever more than in Shepard's head, and none of the three make much sense when you think about it.

If Jack was alive at the start of ME3 but you didn't bother to save her and the kids at Grissom. She'll appear as a phantom with a name and she screams her usual battle phrases. "I will destroy you!" and the like. Cerberus was trying to study the potential of biotics for humans with her, that was the entire point originally. Why would they turn her into a generic phantom that they've already got armies of? That would be like finding the cure for cancer and then, instead of studying it, drinking it because it tastes great. Hell, the only reason we know it's Jack is because of her screaming her catchphrases, but have you ever seen another phantom (or any indoctrinated Cerberus troop for that matter) that retained its original mind after reprogramming?

Legion will appear shortly before the Kei Leng fight if I remember right. He's basically a nemesis. Same deal as Jack: they wanted Legion because he's the only in-tact geth they've ever had a chance to study. Why the hell would they take an invaluable research project and throw it away to create one more of a random trooper they have hordes of? It makes less than no sense. But it would make great sense if the purpose was to torment Shepard over giving the geth to Cerberus. That geth seemed to be an ally but Shepard refused to believe it and gave him to, and I'm quoting BioWare's debug script in ME2 here, "space (censored word for national socialist)." Come to find out the geth, aside from a fringe faction, are innocent victims having been betrayed and attacked by organics for no fault of their own time and again. And one of those times being at Shepard's ignorant hands. Perfect guilt trip material.

Morinth. If you killed Samara and spared Morinth, what the hell is wrong with you! ... Sorry, I just--no seriously, what were you thinking! ... *deep breath* Sorry, I'll try to restrain myself. Okay, so Morinth sends Shepard a goodbye e-mail at the beginning of the game is not heard from again until showing up in London. As a banshee. There's no dialogue as with Jack, there's literally no way you could possibly know that was Morinth except because the target indicator lists her name. How does Shepard know that's Morinth? And out of the millions of banshees that the Reapers have, she's one of the few on London that ends up battling Shepard? What exactly are the odds of that? The one ardat-yakshi that Shepard is responsible for, one who's extremely talented at going underground and hiding when the **** hits the fan, gets caught and winds up as one of the 0.01% of banshees that Shepard faces.

[Ageless Face]

@Rifneno

Sorry to jump in there, just wanted to argue The squadmates seem to also see the phantom is Jack. Even if your squadmates can also be in the process of indoctrination, does that mean they will all see the same hallucination?

Modifié par HagarIshay, 20 juin 2012 - 01:40 .

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

HagarIshay wrote...

@Rifneno

Sorry to jump in there, just wanted to argue The squadmates seem to also see the phantom is Jack. Even if your squadmates can also be in the process of indoctrination, does that mean they will all see the same hallucination?

How do we know they see them? Do they comment on it? Just curious because I have never been in the situation myself.

I can see the problem in it beeing a halucination if your squad comments on them (and still think it is bit of a stretch to think them as halucination) but if they dont comment, they might be seeing a simple Phantom or Cerberus Soldier, where Shepard sees Jack or Legion.

[Ageless Face]

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

How do we know they see them? Do they comment on it? Just curious because I have never been in the situation myself.

I can see the problem in it beeing a halucination if your squad comments on them (and still think it is bit of a stretch to think them as halucination) but if they dont comment, they might be seeing a simple Phantom or Cerberus Soldier, where Shepard sees Jack or Legion.

 1:05

They comment at the end.

Modifié par HagarIshay, 20 juin 2012 - 01:50 .

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

HagarIshay wrote...

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

How do we know they see them? Do they comment on it? Just curious because I have never been in the situation myself.

I can see the problem in it beeing a halucination if your squad comments on them (and still think it is bit of a stretch to think them as halucination) but if they dont comment, they might be seeing a simple Phantom or Cerberus Soldier, where Shepard sees Jack or Legion.

 1:05

They comment at the end.

Yeah okay, I doubt they are sharing a halucination.

[byne]

Rifneno wrote...

Morinth. If you killed Samara and spared Morinth, what the hell is wrong with you! ... Sorry, I just--no seriously, what were you thinking! ... *deep breath* Sorry, I'll try to restrain myself.

My renegade Shep spared Morinth because Samara had already stated that if I did things that were against her code, she would kill me when her oath expired. Morinth is less likely to kill me unless I'm extremely stupid, plus my Shep viewed her as less of a threat than Samara if she ever had to fight either of them at any point.

[MegumiAzusa]

For Morinth it looks more like an easter egg to me. Also she's hot.

Modifié par MegumiAzusa, 20 juin 2012 - 01:54 .

[Turbo_J]

HagarIshay wrote...

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

How do we know they see them? Do they comment on it? Just curious because I have never been in the situation myself.

I can see the problem in it beeing a halucination if your squad comments on them (and still think it is bit of a stretch to think them as halucination) but if they dont comment, they might be seeing a simple Phantom or Cerberus Soldier, where Shepard sees Jack or Legion.

 1:05

They comment at the end.

Remember the videos on the derelict Reaper? Shared memories and potentially shared experiences and delusions may be possible. It's completely inconclusive in my opinion, but it is still possible.

We'll know the answers soon enough.

[JestersShade]

In the IT, I thought the "dream" part was only at the end, so, for me, all that happens on Cerberus base is "true".

For your former squadmates, it may also be interpreted as a way for Bioware to show the player that actions have consequences, as in the rest of the game.
I know that the odd would be low but the fact of seeing former allies turned into monsters/enemies can make some people feel regret and show them to think about possible consequences.

Modifié par JestersShade, 20 juin 2012 - 02:21 .

[Turbo_J]

byne wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

Morinth. If you killed Samara and spared Morinth, what the hell is wrong with you! ... Sorry, I just--no seriously, what were you thinking! ... *deep breath* Sorry, I'll try to restrain myself.

My renegade Shep spared Morinth because Samara had already stated that if I did things that were against her code, she would kill me when her oath expired. Morinth is less likely to kill me unless I'm extremely stupid, plus my Shep viewed her as less of a threat than Samara if she ever had to fight either of them at any point.

I think our Renegade Sheps have a few things in common.

[dorktainian]

Yeah the IT kinda relies on the final part to make sense, but i've said for ages that shep has in my opinion been indoctrinated for a long time. It explains so much when you throw Indoctrination into the equation.

[Ageless Face]

Turbo_J wrote...

Remember the videos on the derelict Reaper? Shared memories and potentially shared experiences and delusions may be possible. It's completely inconclusive in my opinion, but it is still possible.

We'll know the answers soon enough.

Yeah, at the derelict reaper they shared an hallucination, but they didn't see it together. They all saw it separately. Like the two men who thought they married the same woman. They didn't married her together. Were other consoles there that said they all saw the same thing at the same time? 

Besides, Can EDI even be indocrinated?

Modifié par HagarIshay, 20 juin 2012 - 02:00 .

[Turbo_J]

JestersShade wrote...

In the IT, the "dream" part is only at the end, so, for me, all that happens on Cerberus base is "true".

For your former squadmates, it may also be interpreted as a way for Bioware to show the player that actions have consequences, as in the rest of the game.
I know that the odd would be low but the fact of seeing former allies turned into monsters/enemies can make some people feel regret and show them to think about possible consequences.

Please don't make FACT statements like this. Not everyone who supports IT sees things in black and white and even fewer would be so errogant to suggests they are fact. I for one don't for a minute believe the 'dream' is at the end; but that's personal opinion, however. It's very likely hallucinations are prevalent throughout ME3 and there is potential for waking dreams and even broken periods of complete, but lengthy hallucinations from the beginning of Cronos to the end of the game.

These are observations of which I used to form a hypothesis. Nothing more.

[MegumiAzusa]

btw anyone got an idea how I can contact the author of http://masseffectind...on.blogspot.de? I deleted my youtube videos so I wanted to inform him/her about that.

[Turbo_J]

HagarIshay wrote...

Turbo_J wrote...

Remember the videos on the derelict Reaper? Shared memories and potentially shared experiences and delusions may be possible. It's completely inconclusive in my opinion, but it is still possible.

We'll know the answers soon enough.

Yeah, at the derelict reaper they shared an hallucination, but they didn't see it together. They all saw it separately. Like the two men who thought they married the same woman. They didn't married her together. Were other consoles there that said they all saw the same thing at the same time? 

Besides, Can EDI even be indocrinated?

Good catch on EDI. If she can be I'd assume it would be extremely difficult. Her perception could be hacked (interceptions of signals altered so feed back is thus altered), That body can be cut off from the Normandy. It's still a bit of a stretch though.

It does make sense that Jack seems wasted here, but Cerberus is facilitating Reaper goals. Jack is possibly simply a way to mess with Shepard's mind and nothing more.

Not sure on the Morinth thing, but I look at London quite different than most. I see it as full on delusion. Could be real, but Shepard's perceptions may be way out of wack.

[DirtyPhoenix]

Turbo_J wrote...

byne wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

Morinth. If you killed Samara and spared Morinth, what the hell is wrong with you! ... Sorry, I just--no seriously, what were you thinking! ... *deep breath* Sorry, I'll try to restrain myself.

My renegade Shep spared Morinth because Samara had already stated that if I did things that were against her code, she would kill me when her oath expired. Morinth is less likely to kill me unless I'm extremely stupid, plus my Shep viewed her as less of a threat than Samara if she ever had to fight either of them at any point.

I think our Renegade Sheps have a few things in common.

Mine too! And yes, it makes sense from a renegade Shep's point of view. Morinth's "code" is more liberal than Samarra's.

[JestersShade]

@Turbo_J : you're right, I shouldn't have put it this way
--> post edited.

[MaximizedAction]

been wrong, move along please,

Modifié par MaximizedAction, 20 juin 2012 - 02:57 .

[paxxton]

I didn't save the Grissom Academy in one playtrhrough (for the record, not the main one ) but I don't remember Jack turning against me on Cronos Station. Maybe I didn't pay attention.

Modifié par paxxton, 20 juin 2012 - 02:36 .

[MegumiAzusa]

Never heard they should have been deleted scenes.