55528 réponses à ce sujet

[snfonseka]

But the important question is, will BW embrace the IT?

[Bill Casey]

HagarIshay wrote...

Okay, sorry I'm pestering you with questions, but I have another one.

We hear Dr.Kenson in Arrival talk about doubts. maybe what they are doing is wrong, they don't know the reapers, the reapers might be right. The talk of someone in the process of indoctrination.

Someone told me a while ago the in the end, when Shepard is talking with the squadmates, s/he seem to have doubts whether they will win.Yet I never heard Shepard saying that maybe the reapers are right or something.

So, are those doubts of "will we win the war?" are enough to say indoctrination is there?

The doubts as to whether the Reapers are right are present at the very end...



It's a pivotal moment...

Modifié par Bill Casey, 21 juin 2012 - 07:03 .

[Ageless Face]

boeloe wrote...

I don't think doubts about odds of succes are really a sign of indoctrination. I mean the reapers are crazy powerful machines who been at it for over a billion years, countless cycles. Having doubts about your odds of succes is just being realistic and it doesn't change your point of view regarding what must happen to the reapers. So, no.

Right, that's what I thought. So shouldn't Shepard have some sort of doubts about the reapers? Shepard never told us s/he thinks the reapers are right, maybe they can reason with the reapers.

Aren't the doubts about the reapers are signs of indoctrination?

[Ageless Face]

Bill Casey wrote...

The doubts are present at the very end...

*Snip*

It's a pivotal moment...

Oh. But shouldn't the doubts be for a while? You see it only at the very end. This doubt is when the hallucination take place accordin to the IT. Like the very end of the process of the inodctrination. Before that we heard nothing about Shepard thinking maybe the reapers are right.

[Bill Casey]

If Shepard starts thinking maybe the reapers are right, we're ****ed...

That's typically the breaking point in brainwashing...

Modifié par Bill Casey, 21 juin 2012 - 07:13 .

[Ageless Face]

Bill Casey wrote...

If Shepard starts thinking maybe the reapers are right, we're ****ed...

That's typically the breaking point in brainwashing...

Well, if Shepard will be indoctrianted at the end were all screwed anyway 

Dr. Kenson thought about the reapers being right long before she was actually indoctrinated. It's not really the breaking point. 

Modifié par HagarIshay, 21 juin 2012 - 07:16 .

[boeloe]

HagarIshay wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

The doubts are present at the very end...

*Snip*

It's a pivotal moment...

Oh. But shouldn't the doubts be for a while? You see it only at the very end. This doubt is when the hallucination take place accordin to the IT. Like the very end of the process of the inodctrination. Before that we heard nothing about Shepard thinking maybe the reapers are right.

Not necessarily, the slow version of indoctrination is an insidious process that worms it's way into your head without you knowing it and then at a pivotal moment it let's you make a decision that you normally wouldn't made, that ofcourse benefits the reapers (i.e. control, synthesis). Unless your resolve is strong enough (destroy).

[Ageless Face]

boeloe wrote...

Not necessarily, the slow version of indoctrination is an insidious process that worms it's way into your head without you knowing it and then at a pivotal moment it let's you make a decision that you normally wouldn't made, that ofcourse benefits the reapers (i.e. control, synthesis). Unless your resolve is strong enough (destroy).

But... We heard Shepard saying up until the end that destroying the reapers is the only way to win. If indoctriantion is actually there, shouldn't Shepard at least think before it? Shepard took killing the reapers as obvious. Even if the indoctrination is slow... We should have heard Shepard thinking differently once or twice? Or let the hate for the reapers to cool down a bit. Shepard was absolutly determind to kill the reapers till the very end. 

[FellishBeast]

I am wondering if anyone has any thoughts about the conversation with the Reaper on Rannoch, because what it says matches up with what Starbinger says at the end of the game. I think we can be pretty sure that Rannoch was not a hallucination, so does that mean that Reaper was lying and planting the idea into Shepard's mind for later, or was what it said true?

I hope what I'm saying makes sense; I'm about to go to sleep x]

[Starbuck8]

HagarIshay wrote...

boeloe wrote...

Not necessarily, the slow version of indoctrination is an insidious process that worms it's way into your head without you knowing it and then at a pivotal moment it let's you make a decision that you normally wouldn't made, that ofcourse benefits the reapers (i.e. control, synthesis). Unless your resolve is strong enough (destroy).

But... We heard Shepard saying up until the end that destroying the reapers is the only way to win. If indoctriantion is actually there, shouldn't Shepard at least think before it? Shepard took killing the reapers as obvious. Even if the indoctrination is slow... We should have heard Shepard thinking differently once or twice? Or let the hate for the reapers to cool down a bit. Shepard was absolutly determind to kill the reapers till the very end. 

If you tell Hacket to delay the attack on Chronos station, the next time you talk to him you can actually ask him if TIM was right about controlling the reapers. There's a little bit of doubt right there, before the end.

Actually, I think the real goal of BW was putting the doubt into the player's mind, not necessarily making it obvious in Shep's dialogue. We played through 3 games with the sole goal of destroying the reapers, but at the end of ME3, how many did not choose Destroy?

[boeloe]

HagarIshay wrote...

boeloe wrote...

Not necessarily, the slow version of indoctrination is an insidious process that worms it's way into your head without you knowing it and then at a pivotal moment it let's you make a decision that you normally wouldn't made, that ofcourse benefits the reapers (i.e. control, synthesis). Unless your resolve is strong enough (destroy).

But... We heard Shepard saying up until the end that destroying the reapers is the only way to win. If indoctriantion is actually there, shouldn't Shepard at least think before it? Shepard took killing the reapers as obvious. Even if the indoctrination is slow... We should have heard Shepard thinking differently once or twice? Or let the hate for the reapers to cool down a bit. Shepard was absolutly determind to kill the reapers till the very end. 

The point is that YOU are Shepard. You the player is being indoctrinated. So what choice did you pick at the end?
I choose synthesis in my first playthrough even though I've spend 100+ hours playing with that Shepard trough ME1, ME2 and 99,9% of ME3 trying to find a way to destroy the reapers. And when it mattered most I was swayed from the path and choose synthesis, I was indoctrinated.

And further, the slow version of indoctrination is subtle, insidious and makes you think you are totally in control until a pivotal decision moment arises. If your resolve is strong enough then and only then will any doubt surface so it seems justified to me that Shepard only displays doubt towards the very end.

Modifié par boeloe, 21 juin 2012 - 07:48 .

[Starbuck8]

FellishBeast wrote...

I am wondering if anyone has any thoughts about the conversation with the Reaper on Rannoch, because what it says matches up with what Starbinger says at the end of the game. I think we can be pretty sure that Rannoch was not a hallucination, so does that mean that Reaper was lying and planting the idea into Shepard's mind for later, or was what it said true?

I hope what I'm saying makes sense; I'm about to go to sleep x]

Well I know a lot of people have speculated that Shep talking to the reaper on Rannoch actually was in his head. I am also tired so I forget some of the evidence cited. Other than your squadmates not commenting on the conversation or the reaper, and not seeing your squadmates and the reaper in the same scene during the convo.

Not sure where I stand on this, but it's interesting...

[Starbuck8]

boeloe wrote...

HagarIshay wrote...

boeloe wrote...

Not necessarily, the slow version of indoctrination is an insidious process that worms it's way into your head without you knowing it and then at a pivotal moment it let's you make a decision that you normally wouldn't made, that ofcourse benefits the reapers (i.e. control, synthesis). Unless your resolve is strong enough (destroy).

But... We heard Shepard saying up until the end that destroying the reapers is the only way to win. If indoctriantion is actually there, shouldn't Shepard at least think before it? Shepard took killing the reapers as obvious. Even if the indoctrination is slow... We should have heard Shepard thinking differently once or twice? Or let the hate for the reapers to cool down a bit. Shepard was absolutly determind to kill the reapers till the very end. 

The point is that YOU are Shepard. You the player is being indoctrinated. So what choice did you pick at the end?
I choose synthesis in my first playthrough even though I've spend 100+ hours playing with that Shepard trough ME1, ME2 and 99,9% of ME3 trying to find a way to destroy the reapers. And when it mattered most I was swayed from the path and choose synthesis, I was indoctrinated.

And further, the slow version of indoctrination is subtle, insidious and makes you think you are totally in control until a pivotal decision moment arises. If your resolve is strong enough then and only then will any doubt surface so it seems justified to me that Shepard only displays doubt towards the very end.

I chose synthesis as well. How could I not have caught on to the whole pinnacle of evolution thing? BW, very clever. The ending was quite disorienting, and they got me

[Ageless Face]

@StarBuck8, @boeloe

Fair enough. It may have some sense that BioWare wanted the player to "be inodc", I guess. I don't know if I agree they actually did it that way if the IT was planned, but I also can't argue with that. It's our game after all, not Shepard's. I guess...

Thanks for the answers, anyway.

[boeloe]

Starbuck8 wrote...

boeloe wrote...

HagarIshay wrote...

boeloe wrote...

Not necessarily, the slow version of indoctrination is an insidious process that worms it's way into your head without you knowing it and then at a pivotal moment it let's you make a decision that you normally wouldn't made, that ofcourse benefits the reapers (i.e. control, synthesis). Unless your resolve is strong enough (destroy).

But... We heard Shepard saying up until the end that destroying the reapers is the only way to win. If indoctriantion is actually there, shouldn't Shepard at least think before it? Shepard took killing the reapers as obvious. Even if the indoctrination is slow... We should have heard Shepard thinking differently once or twice? Or let the hate for the reapers to cool down a bit. Shepard was absolutly determind to kill the reapers till the very end. 

The point is that YOU are Shepard. You the player is being indoctrinated. So what choice did you pick at the end?
I choose synthesis in my first playthrough even though I've spend 100+ hours playing with that Shepard trough ME1, ME2 and 99,9% of ME3 trying to find a way to destroy the reapers. And when it mattered most I was swayed from the path and choose synthesis, I was indoctrinated.

And further, the slow version of indoctrination is subtle, insidious and makes you think you are totally in control until a pivotal decision moment arises. If your resolve is strong enough then and only then will any doubt surface so it seems justified to me that Shepard only displays doubt towards the very end.

I chose synthesis as well. How could I not have caught on to the whole pinnacle of evolution thing? BW, very clever. The ending was quite disorienting, and they got me

I know that feel.

HagarIshay wrote...

@StarBuck8, @boeloe

Fair enough. It may have some sense that BioWare wanted the player to "be inodc", I guess. I don't know if I agree they actually did it that way if the IT was planned, but I also can't argue with that. It's our game after all, not Shepard's. I guess...

Thanks for the answers, anyway.

You're welcome. :happy:

[MaximizedAction]

Starbuck8 wrote...

boeloe wrote...

HagarIshay wrote...

boeloe wrote...

Not necessarily, the slow version of indoctrination is an insidious process that worms it's way into your head without you knowing it and then at a pivotal moment it let's you make a decision that you normally wouldn't made, that ofcourse benefits the reapers (i.e. control, synthesis). Unless your resolve is strong enough (destroy).

But... We heard Shepard saying up until the end that destroying the reapers is the only way to win. If indoctriantion is actually there, shouldn't Shepard at least think before it? Shepard took killing the reapers as obvious. Even if the indoctrination is slow... We should have heard Shepard thinking differently once or twice? Or let the hate for the reapers to cool down a bit. Shepard was absolutly determind to kill the reapers till the very end. 

The point is that YOU are Shepard. You the player is being indoctrinated. So what choice did you pick at the end?
I choose synthesis in my first playthrough even though I've spend 100+ hours playing with that Shepard trough ME1, ME2 and 99,9% of ME3 trying to find a way to destroy the reapers. And when it mattered most I was swayed from the path and choose synthesis, I was indoctrinated.

And further, the slow version of indoctrination is subtle, insidious and makes you think you are totally in control until a pivotal decision moment arises. If your resolve is strong enough then and only then will any doubt surface so it seems justified to me that Shepard only displays doubt towards the very end.

I chose synthesis as well. How could I not have caught on to the whole pinnacle of evolution thing? BW, very clever. The ending was quite disorienting, and they got me

I chose destroy, but not at all light minded and confident. When the Catalyst was telling me the choices I got all panicky and thought,
"wtf? What? Wait, that's not so easy. I it's so natural for me to control the Reapers, then why make TIM the antagonist? And Synthesis? How can I force something on every organic in the galaxy? And where are my squadmates, why was Anderson's jacket so clean, and why...hey, you know what: go right because that's why you got here in the first place....and theeere we go."
i.e. I forced myself to stop thinking and just do what I 'had' to do. In retrospect, it was one hell of an awesome moment.

Modifié par MaximizedAction, 21 juin 2012 - 08:05 .

[Starbuck8]

HagarIshay wrote...

@StarBuck8, @boeloe

Fair enough. It may have some sense that BioWare wanted the player to "be inodc", I guess. I don't know if I agree they actually did it that way if the IT was planned, but I also can't argue with that. It's our game after all, not Shepard's. I guess...

Thanks for the answers, anyway.

No problem

I'll just add this: If Shepard had started talking about controlling the reapers (like TIM) or hearing the reapers out (like Kenson) or siding with them (like Saren) or even just expressing major doubts about defeating the reapers or alternatives to destroying them, would you not have thought there was something wrong with her? We're all fairly certain BW did not want it to be obvious, in order to achieve indoctrination of the player, and not simply employing it as a game mechanic.

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

MaximizedAction wrote...

I chose destroy, but not at all light minded and confident. When the Catalyst was telling me the choices I got all panicky and thought,
"wtf? What? Wait, that's not so easy. I it's so natural for me to control the Reapers, then why make TIM the antagonist? And Synthesis? How can I force something on every organic in the galaxy? And where are my squadmates, why was Anderson's jacket so clean, and why...hey, you know what: go right because that's why you got here in the first place....and theeere we go."

Same I also became confused when presented with the choices, but i calmed myself and thought things through.

Control was out of the question from the start for me, nothing, not even some little star kid was gonna convince me that was a good idea, not with all we had seen.

Synthesis was more tempting, but Legion saved me there. What was it he had told us about the Geth in ME2 and what we saw in ME3. They wanted to make their own future, not have it given to them, like Synthesis would for every species in the galaxy.

It might seem hypocritical to then Destroy them instead as Destroy does if taken face value, but one thought lead to the next and I remembered what Shepard said about not sacrificing the soul of our species.

So in the end i choose destroy because of Legion and the Geth...quite a powerful moment for me even if the ending was bull****.

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

snfonseka wrote...

But the important question is, will BW embrace the IT?

It is not a question of them embracing it, it is question of if they planned it from the start. All  the hints, everything making up this theory comes from the game and Bioware themselves so you can be certain that if IT turns out to be true it was planned from the start.

[boeloe]

MaximizedAction wrote...

I chose destroy, but not at all light minded and confident. When the Catalyst was telling me the choices I got all panicky and thought,
"wtf? What? Wait, that's not so easy. I it's so natural for me to control the Reapers, then why make TIM the antagonist? And Synthesis? How can I force something on every organic in the galaxy? And where are my squadmates, why was Anderson's jacket so clean, and why...hey, you know what: go right because that's why you got here in the first place....and theeere we go."
i.e. I forced myself to stop thinking and just do what I 'had' to do. In retrospect, it was one hell of an awesome moment.

I applaud you.

I just wanted to save EDI and the Geth. Also it was 5 a.m. when I made my final decision and I was really tired, but I couldn't just stop in the middle of Priority:Earth. At least that's the excuse I keep telling myself.

[MaximizedAction]

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

snfonseka wrote...

But the important question is, will BW embrace the IT?

It is not a question of them embracing it, it is question of if they planned it from the start. All  the hints, everything making up this theory comes from the game and Bioware themselves so you can be certain that if IT turns out to be true it was planned from the start.

And I will patiently waiting for the documentary where Casey tells us when that start actually was: ME2? Or even ME1? Because we still lack that typical amount of making of, that is mandatory for RPGs nowadays. In fact, if one thinks about it, if you forget for a second that the game has been released, then they actually behave as if it hadn't been released yet. As if they're still developing the main game (not DLC).

I can't believe how I didn't see that before I hopped on the IT bandwagon. Their silence, anbiguous answers, lacking making ofs besides the Final Hour app, no OST CD released...

Modifié par MaximizedAction, 21 juin 2012 - 08:22 .

[MaximizedAction]

boeloe wrote...

MaximizedAction wrote...

I chose destroy, but not at all light minded and confident. When the Catalyst was telling me the choices I got all panicky and thought,
"wtf? What? Wait, that's not so easy. I it's so natural for me to control the Reapers, then why make TIM the antagonist? And Synthesis? How can I force something on every organic in the galaxy? And where are my squadmates, why was Anderson's jacket so clean, and why...hey, you know what: go right because that's why you got here in the first place....and theeere we go."
i.e. I forced myself to stop thinking and just do what I 'had' to do. In retrospect, it was one hell of an awesome moment.

I applaud you.

I just wanted to save EDI and the Geth. Also it was 5 a.m. when I made my final decision and I was really tired, but I couldn't just stop in the middle of Priority:Earth. At least that's the excuse I keep telling myself.

And it was 4am at my place. Thus, the lack of proper decision making. "Just do it" is not a proper argument.
Of course you can't stop in the middle of that final mission. And if the time doesn't tear down your concentration, or the Thanix missle defense fight, or the amount of confusion on the Citadel, then the Catalyst will.

Modifié par MaximizedAction, 21 juin 2012 - 08:20 .

[Starbuck8]

MaximizedAction wrote...

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

snfonseka wrote...

But the important question is, will BW embrace the IT?

It is not a question of them embracing it, it is question of if they planned it from the start. All  the hints, everything making up this theory comes from the game and Bioware themselves so you can be certain that if IT turns out to be true it was planned from the start.

And I will patiently waiting for the documentary where Casey tells us when that start actually was: ME2? Or even ME1? Because we still lack that typical amount of making of, that is mandatory for RPGs nowadays. In fact, if one thinks about it, if you forget for a second that the game has been released, then they actually behave as if it hadn't been released yet. As if they're still developing the main game (not DLC).

I can't believe how I didn't see that before I hopped on the IT bandwagon. Their silence, anbiguous answers, lacking making offs besides the Final Hour app, no OST CD released...

I think the "making of" will be the only way, and the best way, to silence those who will claim BW just pandered to ITers. It'll be great

[Starbuck8]

MaximizedAction wrote...

boeloe wrote...

MaximizedAction wrote...

I chose destroy, but not at all light minded and confident. When the Catalyst was telling me the choices I got all panicky and thought,
"wtf? What? Wait, that's not so easy. I it's so natural for me to control the Reapers, then why make TIM the antagonist? And Synthesis? How can I force something on every organic in the galaxy? And where are my squadmates, why was Anderson's jacket so clean, and why...hey, you know what: go right because that's why you got here in the first place....and theeere we go."
i.e. I forced myself to stop thinking and just do what I 'had' to do. In retrospect, it was one hell of an awesome moment.

I applaud you.

I just wanted to save EDI and the Geth. Also it was 5 a.m. when I made my final decision and I was really tired, but I couldn't just stop in the middle of Priority:Earth. At least that's the excuse I keep telling myself.

And it was 4am at my place. Thus, the lack of proper decision making. "Just do it" is not a proper argument.
Of course you can't stop in the middle of that final mission. And if the time doesn't tear down your concentration, or the Thanix missle defense fight, or the amount of confusion on the Citadel, then the Catalyst will.

Lol I swear they made the ending purposely so that we'd have been playing for hours, unable to stop, into the early morning hours, perfect targets for indoctrination.

[boeloe]

Starbuck8 wrote...

MaximizedAction wrote...

boeloe wrote...

MaximizedAction wrote...

I chose destroy, but not at all light minded and confident. When the Catalyst was telling me the choices I got all panicky and thought,
"wtf? What? Wait, that's not so easy. I it's so natural for me to control the Reapers, then why make TIM the antagonist? And Synthesis? How can I force something on every organic in the galaxy? And where are my squadmates, why was Anderson's jacket so clean, and why...hey, you know what: go right because that's why you got here in the first place....and theeere we go."
i.e. I forced myself to stop thinking and just do what I 'had' to do. In retrospect, it was one hell of an awesome moment.

I applaud you.

I just wanted to save EDI and the Geth. Also it was 5 a.m. when I made my final decision and I was really tired, but I couldn't just stop in the middle of Priority:Earth. At least that's the excuse I keep telling myself.

And it was 4am at my place. Thus, the lack of proper decision making. "Just do it" is not a proper argument.
Of course you can't stop in the middle of that final mission. And if the time doesn't tear down your concentration, or the Thanix missle defense fight, or the amount of confusion on the Citadel, then the Catalyst will.

Lol I swear they made the ending purposely so that we'd have been playing for hours, unable to stop, into the early morning hours, perfect targets for indoctrination.

Right. And the weird thing was that I couldn't sleep afterwards, I kept thinking "Wait, what just happened?"

To be fair, Garrus did warn us after Priority:Tuchanka that we'd need a clear head to win the war.