253 réponses à ce sujet

[Miphious]

Erield wrote...

I didn't read all of the OP, and I haven't read any of the posts. I was really thinking (maybe hoping?) that the word would be boobs. Boobs are wonderful, magical things. They are the reason why The Trojan War was fought, and I firmly believe that they could (should?) have been used in the Reaper War.

Of course! It makes sense now. Reapers are jealous that none of their kind have boobs! That's the whole reason their here; that mumbo jumbo about advanced races is really just a line they feed you to throw you off their tracks. 

Had we called truce and agreed to parade boobs before them we could have won. 

[FoxShadowblade]

"You can't beat the Reapers conventionally!"

"Why not?!"

"Uh..we didn't really think that one through, so just because"

Seriously, when I played the demo and Anderson told Shepard: "We need every species and all their ships if we're even going to have a chance at beating the Reapers!"(or something like that) I was psyched to actually have my combined fleet fight the Reapers. Two missions later: "WE CAN'T BEAT THEM WITHOUT THIS ****TY DEUS EX"

[incinerator950]

daqs wrote...

You know, I've spent most of my life around fighting men and women, and most of the rest of it learning about, writing about, and teaching about ones that lived in the past. I tend to respect them immensely, and I especially respect those who have done so in the service of my adopted country (the United States). And the ones who've posted in this thread are right, after a fashion: morale, fighting spirit, esprit de corps, whatever - that can win battles, and has. It's one of Clausewitz's old dicta: the fog of war might obscure things to the commanders at the top, friction might prevent their orders from being carried out properly or whatever, but moral forces could compensate in part for those problems.

But high morale cannot and will not ever compensate for the sort of technological and numerical inferiority that the space navies of the united galaxy face in the Reaper War. Because, make no mistake: victory on the ground is nice, but it is irrelevant without victory in space. I don't doubt for a second that the armies of the Citadel races could be pitted against any Reaper ground force and win - even win handily, especially if they had high morale. But that's not really the decisive part of the war - the space fighting is. A victorious ground force could be annihilated by a Reaper capital ship in minutes. And the Reapers would undoubtedly take an even greater toll on a ground force before it is able to even reach the surface of a given planet.

It is in space naval combat that morale is much less useful. It doesn't matter how motivated you are, how ready to die you are - a motivated crew can't compensate for a technologically inferior vessel. High morale among the crew doesn't endow a ship with the ability to dodge a Reaper dreadnought's main guns, or provide a ship with enough armor to withstand a hit. High morale won't change the calculus of firepower and armor. Compare it not to the modern small-unit combat in the brushfire wars of Central Asia, the Middle East, and Africa, with which our soldiers here on BSN have experience, but to a modern naval battle (if such a thing existed). Pit a modern US Navy carrier battle group against the naval forces of Russia, Iran, or even China, and the Americans would wipe out the enemy before they even got within radar range of the carrier at the battle group's heart, no matter how well-motivated the Iranians or whomever might be. And I think we can all guess which fleet is the Reapers and which is the Citadel races in that analogy.

None of this is to say that morale isn't good or useful or necessary. It is. But high morale will not compensate for a deficiency all across the board, in numbers and in technology. And, it's worth noting, it historically has not done so, even in land engagements. Rare is the example of a battle won by an army that was outnumbered, outgunned, and outthought, but whose high morale permitted them to carry the day anyway. But, in land battles where everything else has been more or less equal, morale can and has been a key factor in determining the victor. We cannot say that the Citadel races are "more or less equal" to the Reapers.

I suppose the thing is that a soldier is told that high morale can win all on its own, because he or she needs to believe that that's true. That's what having high morale is: you need to believe you can win, even if it's not true. It's what prevents some of the soldiers here from having any sort of an objective opinion on the matter. They have experience, and I respect that, but they do not tend to have a neutral perspective.

---

On a side note, I never really understood why this argument about conventional victory was even necessary. The people who developed the IP took great pains to state that conventional victory is impossible, ergo it is impossible. That's the way it is. You might as well argue about what color Liara's skin is, or whether Arcturus really is in Alliance space. It's not coming from one unreliable source, it comes from pretty much everybody Shepard talks to on the subject, with pretty much nary a dissenting voice. You might believe that the story would have been better if the forces of the united galaxy won with some sort of conventional victory, and you might disagree with the writers' decision to make the Reapers so powerful that conventional victory was impossible, but it seems ridiculous to claim that the writers are wrong. It's their IP.

I wondered where you dissapeared to.  Good read as always daq.  

[TiminatorT2000]

 I actually think a conventional victory is possible, hell in the codex it says when the repears attacked thessia they were basically forced to rely on starving the asari because of them all having natural biotics.

All that would really need to happen is one hard strike on the reapers after you've rallied and allied all of the galaxy. Imagine the combined fleets destroying all the repears on Palavan/Thessia or Earth.One hard blow to the repear fleet would be enough to give the galaxy a fighting chance.

Ground war is also possible to win but would require brutal tactics, (burning all dead soldiers to prevent husks , possibly civilian explosive suicide attacks) Along with a Krogan population cured of the genophage , and possible Salarian uplifted yagh (unlease them as shock toops behind enemy lines, possibly as orbital drop shock troops, they may have to be kept tranquilized until put until battle) Mass producing the prothean assualt rifle would be effective as well.

Also I seem to remember the Quarian civilian fleet being equipped with extremly powerful weapons , using them to flank reapers would be extrmely effective.

Now I agree the chance of a conventional victory is low but doubt it's impossible given all of the information bioware has given us.

daqs wrote... 
On a side note, I never really understood why this argument about conventional victory was even necessary. The people who developed the IP took great pains to state that conventional victory is impossible, ergo it is impossible. That's the way it is. You might as well argue about what color Liara's skin is, or whether Arcturus really is in Alliance space. It's not coming from one unreliable source, it comes from pretty much everybody Shepard talks to on the subject, with pretty much nary a dissenting voice. You might believe that the story would have been better if the forces of the united galaxy won with some sort of conventional victory, and you might disagree with the writers' decision to make the Reapers so powerful that conventional victory was impossible, but it seems ridiculous to claim that the writers are wrong. It's their IP.

 


It's not the same as Liara's skin colour, we can clearly see her colour of skin , we don't see that conventional victory is impossible just that most people think it is. But hell even in the game Hacket says that if you can't find out what the catalyst is then he'll try the galaxy's fleets luck against the reapers. 

Anyhow it's not about if it the story would be better (even though I think it would have been) , and to my knowledge the writers have never stated directly that convential victory is impossible (character dialouge is not the writers stating it's impossible , even ignoring my Hacket example) ,even if they did there's absolutly no reason we can't think about it as a hypothetical situation.

But hell it's not like we have to accept everything a character says at face value, if we did IT theory would never have been invented. Hackett/Anderson/whoever are not infallible and there's possibility's they may not have thought of.You could even argue that Alliance Brass are indoctrinated. Alot of the alliance is infiltrated by cerberus, It's not entirely impossible that they exposed Alliance leadership to Reaper artifacts.

Modifié par TiminatorT2000, 15 mai 2012 - 06:55 .

[garrusfan1]

Dantexr3 wrote...

I have another word:

Grunt.

Now a lot of reapers are going to die.

agreed just tell grunt to charge the reaper he does that laugh breaks through reaper aromor he destroys it from inside I think its possible

[garrusfan1]

TiminatorT2000 wrote...

 I actually think a conventional victory is possible, hell in the codex it says when the repears attacked thessia they were basically forced to rely on starving the asari because of them all having natural biotics.

All that would really need to happen is one hard strike on the reapers after you've rallied and allied all of the galaxy. Imagine the combined fleets destroying all the repears on Palavan/Thessia or Earth.One hard blow to the repear fleet would be enough to give the galaxy a fighting chance.

Ground war is also possible to win but would require brutal tactics, (burning all dead soldiers to prevent husks , possibly civilian explosive suicide attacks) Along with a Krogan population cured of the genophage , and possible Salarian uplifted yagh (unlease them as shock toops behind enemy lines, possibly as orbital drop shock troops, they may have to be kept tranquilized until put until battle) Mass producing the prothean assualt rifle would be effective as well.

Also I seem to remember the Quarian civilian fleet being equipped with extremly powerful weapons , using them to flank reapers would be extrmely effective.

Now I agree the chance of a conventional victory is low but doubt it's impossible given all of the information bioware has given us.

daqs wrote... 
On a side note, I never really understood why this argument about conventional victory was even necessary. The people who developed the IP took great pains to state that conventional victory is impossible, ergo it is impossible. That's the way it is. You might as well argue about what color Liara's skin is, or whether Arcturus really is in Alliance space. It's not coming from one unreliable source, it comes from pretty much everybody Shepard talks to on the subject, with pretty much nary a dissenting voice. You might believe that the story would have been better if the forces of the united galaxy won with some sort of conventional victory, and you might disagree with the writers' decision to make the Reapers so powerful that conventional victory was impossible, but it seems ridiculous to claim that the writers are wrong. It's their IP.

 


It's not the same as Liara's skin colour, we can clearly see her colour of skin , we don't see that conventional victory is impossible just that most people think it is. But hell even in the game Hacket says that if you can't find out what the catalyst is then he'll try the galaxy's fleets luck against the reapers. 

Anyhow it's not about if it the story would be better (even though I think it would have been) , and to my knowledge the writers have never stated directly that convential victory is impossible (character dialouge is not the writers stating it's impossible , even ignoring my Hacket example) ,even if they did there's absolutly no reason we can't think about it as a hypothetical situation.

But hell it's not like we have to accept everything a character says at face value, if we did IT theory would never have been invented. Hackett/Anderson/whoever are not infallible and there's possibility's they may not have thought of.You could even argue that Alliance Brass are indoctrinated. Alot of the alliance is infiltrated by cerberus, It's not entirely impossible that they exposed Alliance leadership to Reaper artifacts.

alright I agree that honestly in the entire series  noone except the reapers and that stupid holo kid knows all about the reapers I mean even shepard doesn`t really know much except they destroy all advanced organic life in galaxy and they harvest other species  to make reapers so really hackett knows their insanly strong and are way more advanced than us but he doesn`t know if they have a weak spot or some weakness really it is like aliens invaded us know we know nothing about them  

[azerSheppard]

Sure, right after Shepard takes one on foot.

That's ironic btw, because he had the support of the entire quarian fleet to kill it.

[The Night Mammoth]

daqs wrote....

On a side note, I never really understood why this argument about conventional victory was even necessary. The people who developed the IP took great pains to state that conventional victory is impossible, ergo it is impossible. That's the way it is. You might as well argue about what color Liara's skin is, or whether Arcturus really is in Alliance space. It's not coming from one unreliable source, it comes from pretty much everybody Shepard talks to on the subject, with pretty much nary a dissenting voice. You might believe that the story would have been better if the forces of the united galaxy won with some sort of conventional victory, and you might disagree with the writers' decision to make the Reapers so powerful that conventional victory was impossible, but it seems ridiculous to claim that the writers are wrong. It's their IP.

Evidently, they didn't go to that great lengths, as several threads courtesy of that splendid chap a.m.p show.

Some random characters saying some things does not make it true, especially when you're shown differently. It's happened I think four times now in Mass Effect. 

Certain task is widely believed impossible, most characters believe so. Add Shepard to the equation, then said task is no longer impossible. Like finding the Mu Relays and getting to Ilos. 

This is like Liara saying her skin is blue, when you can't actually see her. 

Until the fleet is outright defeated or they win this is a very open argument, there's no conclusion yet. 

As a side note: not everyone thinks the Reapers are unbeatable. Garrus doesn't. Shepard doesn't. Anyone with a creative brain in their body doesn't. Conventional tactics won't win this, so put men like Coronati and Victus in charge, you know, people that understand that when your standard strategies are invalid, you get creative. 

Modifié par The Night Mammoth, 15 mai 2012 - 04:12 .

[Zix13]

J0HNL3I wrote...

Dantexr3 wrote...

I have another word:

Kirrahe

Now all the reapers are going to die.

fixed:whistle:

re-fixed.

[Der Bibliothekar]

I'd rather say Currahee than Kirrahe...

[clipped_wolf]

ReXspec wrote...

ShepnTali wrote...

We're talking fantasy fiction here, not real wars.

If the writers goal was to make the battles, history, and scale over-the-top, then I would buy that.

But, my impression, based on the tremendously detailed codex entries on military doctrine and technology, is that Bioware wanted to base the universe (the war included) in some sort of plausible facts grounded in some sort of reality.

Sadly, I have to agree with ShepnTali here.  Bioware didn't make ME3 sci-fi, they made it a space fantasy.  The codex is a remnant from the beginning of the series.
Where in the cut-scene are the tactics or tech that were in the codex anyway?  To make military sci-fi it would help to have knowledge of the military (strategy, tactics) and science.  It can be so much easier to make it a fantasy, just make it consistant with it's own laws and rules, (arguably, the team of writers had trouble doing that) and so why not?  Why can't moral win wars in this magical space fantasy?

[Elyiia]

azerSheppard wrote...

Sure, right after Shepard takes one on foot.

That's ironic btw, because he had the support of the entire quarian fleet to kill it.

I thought the entire Quarian fleet was 50,000 odd ships. Not a handful of them. Wow have I been mistaken.

[someguy1231]

All the morale in the universe will mean nothing if you're hopelessly inferior to your enemy in some vital way, whether logistically or technologically. Go look up the Battle of Omdurman (1898). 8,000 British soldiers versus 50,000+ followers of a self-proclaimed Islamic messiah, which gave them pretty high fighting spirits. The result? 47 British deaths compared to 20,000+ killed or wounded on the other side. The reason? Two words: machine guns.

Modifié par someguy1231, 16 mai 2012 - 07:27 .

[HBC Dresden]

Meatus wrote...

 Not to mention we single-handedly took down a Reaper on foot before, in less than 10 minutes. Sovereign was shredded similarly. And the one on Tuchanka was essentially hugged to death.

So yeah, I'd say they can be conventionally defeated as well.

So, the entire Quarian Fleet to take down the Rannoch Reaper Destroyer, the entire Alliance fleet plus Saren feedback loop to defeat Sovereign, and the biggest thresher maw in exisitance to defeat the Tuchanka Reaper Destroyer are all conventional techniques?!

[ShepnTali]

FoxShadowblade wrote...

"You can't beat the Reapers conventionally!"

"Why not?!"

"Uh..we didn't really think that one through, so just because"

Seriously, when I played the demo and Anderson told Shepard: "We need every species and all their ships if we're even going to have a chance at beating the Reapers!"(or something like that) I was psyched to actually have my combined fleet fight the Reapers. Two missions later: "WE CAN'T BEAT THEM WITHOUT THIS ****TY DEUS EX"

Yeah. A let down for sure. We got magic button solutions, without the victorious feeling.

[Elyiia]

HBC Dresden wrote...

Meatus wrote...

 Not to mention we single-handedly took down a Reaper on foot before, in less than 10 minutes. Sovereign was shredded similarly. And the one on Tuchanka was essentially hugged to death.

So yeah, I'd say they can be conventionally defeated as well.

So, the entire Quarian Fleet to take down the Rannoch Reaper Destroyer, the entire Alliance fleet plus Saren feedback loop to defeat Sovereign, and the biggest thresher maw in exisitance to defeat the Tuchanka Reaper Destroyer are all conventional techniques?!

I thought the entire Quarian fleet was 50,000 odd ships. Not a handful of them. Wow have I been mistaken.

The entire Alliance fleet, being the Fifth fleet with kinetic weapons while also fighting a Geth fleet. The Tuchanka was killed by crushing power of an organic creature, something that can be easily topped by our weapons. Also, the Destroyer on Earth killed with a single Cain shot.

Modifié par Elyiia, 16 mai 2012 - 07:39 .

[Mad-Hamlet]

tetsutsuru wrote...
there are lots of realistic movies which portray such:  300

First, I think you have a valid point.

Second, you seriously want to rethink that line. The passion is clear- the accuracy, or lack of it, is hilarious.

Again, total agreement with your argument though.

But yeah, I laughed.




A lot.

[clipped_wolf]

tetsutsuru was being sarcastic, I think. I hope.

[DangerSandler]

I was gonna say Warp + Throw, but that works too.

[Krozuhsky]

 Sure, you might be able to take out some infantry with soldiers hyped up with morale. But thats pointless, when your enemies never tire, don't need rescources, and can blow up your ships with one friggin laser. Morale isnt going to make your dreadnoughts do barrel rolls to avoid the lasers. Morale isn't going to boost up your cannons to one shot Reapers.

[ubermensch007]

111987 wrote...

This is laughable. There is no way we win conventionally no matter how high our morale is.

My friend: I disagree... It could be said that the sole reason the galactic community displays a level of idolatry not scene sense the days of Moses (Concering their misplaced faith and confidence that the Crucible is their salvation) is because of the Treaty of Fairexn. During the entire galactic war -- Palaven never falls into the Reapers hands.Might have something to do with the fact that they have 5 dreadnoughts for every one dreadnought that we have. Also the turians commitment to public service, legendary resolve and never back down attiude and dedication to martial strentgh contributes much to their success at putting up the greatest degree of resistence to Reaper forces.

Another idea that has been floating around in my mind of late is this. The best defense against the Reapers. We know there modus operandi.So what can we do about it? The Reapers have two goals: Destroy civilizations and Harvest genetic material. For a moment let's go back to before the Reapers invaded.What could the batarians, humans, salarians, asari and everyone else who still has a homeworld do, to best prepare for a galactic invasion by godlike space dragons.

The Reapers may not have worlds to protect.Or supply lines and what not. And some may see this as an advantage that they have over us.But I think in a way.Its good that we have something worth protecting.It gives us a defensible position.And that means that the  Reapers must come to us.We don't have to go out and look for them.

The primary goal one should have when fighting the Reapers.Is to do all within your power to prevent them from landing on the surface of your planet.The best defense is this:

1st: Ground to Space Cannons.

2nd: Fleets in Orbit.

3rd:High-Yield Nucelar Proximty Minefield in orbit betwixt the Mass relay and ones homeworld. Preventing or making it very difficult for Reapers to ever touchdown on the surface of your planet.In Mass Effect 2 EDI says that a Reapers kinetic barrier is impervious to dreadnought fire.In ME3 they now say four or five dreadnoughts can theorectically take out a Sovereign class Reaper. But dreadnought fire is only in the multi-kiliton TNT range.
What I'm talking about here is megaton level firepower.Hydrogen bombs -- which have no upper limit.

Don't believe the hype. Conventional victory is or was very possible.
And preferable to the lousy ass space magic   that we got <_<

Modifié par ubermensch007, 16 mai 2012 - 12:55 .

[xxskyshadowxx]

eddieoctane wrote...

Meatus wrote...

 Not to mention we single-handedly took down a Reaper on foot before, in less than 10 minutes. Sovereign was shredded similarly. And the one on Tuchanka was essentially hugged to death.

So yeah, I'd say they can be conventionally defeated as well.

I took down a Reaper in less than 10 seconds. My literal reaction: "Oh, look. An M-920 Cain. And a Reaper." *big explosion* "How the hell is a conventional victory not possible?!"

Cuz Shepard is a total moron in ME3 and while everyone is like "without the Cruicible, we can't beat the Reapers!" and "How can we stop them?!" and so on, Shepard is like picking his/her nose the whole time rather than saying "Oh, just so you know, I totally took one out by myself with a Cain earlier. Let's get some more of those into ground forces' hands."

[xxskyshadowxx]

Mad-Hamlet wrote...

tetsutsuru wrote...
there are lots of realistic movies which portray such:  300

First, I think you have a valid point.

Second, you seriously want to rethink that line. The passion is clear- the accuracy, or lack of it, is hilarious.

Again, total agreement with your argument though.

But yeah, I laughed.




A lot.

Hahaha True, but 300 had a better ending that ME3.

[The Night Mammoth]

HBC Dresden wrote...

Meatus wrote...

 Not to mention we single-handedly took down a Reaper on foot before, in less than 10 minutes. Sovereign was shredded similarly. And the one on Tuchanka was essentially hugged to death.

So yeah, I'd say they can be conventionally defeated as well.

So, the entire Quarian Fleet to take down the Rannoch Reaper Destroyer

Three ships, using their secondary weapons. 

the entire Alliance fleet plus Saren feedback loop to defeat Sovereign,

Actually, once Sovereign's shields were down it took one shot from the Normandy. But it was only one fleet, the 5th, and they had a massive fleet of Geth ships to deal with at the same time.

If the entire Alliance fleet was there Sovereign wouldn't have lasted five seconds. 

and the biggest thresher maw in exisitance to defeat the Tuchanka Reaper Destroyer are all conventional techniques?!

The proper application of force was all that was required. 

Then you take one out with a single Thanix missile and some infantry held rocket launchers, and another before that with a Cain. 

Then we have the numerous examples of Capital Ships being taken out in the Codex. 

You see, when Hackett tells me they can't be defeated conventionally, I start going to people who realize they have to be fought unconventionally. 

No, unconventionally is not pouring all their remaining resources into a completely unknown device they just found, unconventional is changing your strategies accordingly, not relying on tactics you know don't work.

Find their weaknesses, find your strengths, act accordingly. 

Case in point: Coronati, a Turian Admiral. 

Reaper disadvantage? Slow to turn unless they lower their shields. 

Dreadnaught advantage? Much faster to turn without sacrificing protection.

Solution? FTL jump close to the Reapers, shoot them down as they try to adjust, and jump away when they start firing back.

Result? Success. Capital ships destroyed, no implied losses to Coronati's men as a result of his strategy.

Put him and Victus in charge, two leaders who understand when standard goes out the window, you start getting creative. 

Modifié par The Night Mammoth, 16 mai 2012 - 01:18 .