253 réponses à ce sujet

[frylock23]

Atakuma wrote...

That's a nice sentiment, but it's ultimately worthless against an enemy that can plow through your best defenses with relative ease.

Did you ever see the end of Braveheart?

Those unarmored Scotsmen charged a line of armored, mounted English knights. I'd say that fits the definition of fighting an enemy that can "plow through your best defenses with relative ease." I guess they all got slaughtered then ...

Oh, wait.

They won, and not just in Hollywood, either. They really won.

There's more to war than just the hard facts of who has the best weapons. Sometimes, the inferior force does win. Much like sports, if it was simply a matter of checking who has the superior force on paper, we wouldn't even need to actually fight.

[tetsutsuru]

estebanus wrote...

Morale doesn't help when a guddamn laser destroys your ship in one shot.

tetsutsuru wrote...

Who says we don't have the capability to inflict the same on Reaper ships? Perhaps not in just one, clumsilly-aimed shot. But in a few or several, precision shots, at least Reaper Destroyers can be taken out.

111987 wrote...

Yes, but there are thousands of those.

As far as just plain ship count, Sword Fleet outnumbers Reaper ships, by A LOT, if I recall.  Reaper ships are just quite a few steps more advanced, and powerful.  Hence the problem.

[dreman9999]

tetsutsuru wrote...

estebanus wrote...

Morale doesn't help when a guddamn laser destroys your ship in one shot.

incinerator950 wrote...

Or kills entire platoons, and destroys fortified bunkers every shot.

We have our own weapons of mass destruction that can take out waves of Reaper forces as well.

Unfortuantly, reaper focres are endless and we have limited supply of weapons of mass destrution...And those weapon hurt us more because we would destroy our own recourses to us it.

[dreman9999]

frylock23 wrote...

Atakuma wrote...

That's a nice sentiment, but it's ultimately worthless against an enemy that can plow through your best defenses with relative ease.

Did you ever see the end of Braveheart?

Those unarmored Scotsmen charged a line of armored, mounted English knights. I'd say that fits the definition of fighting an enemy that can "plow through your best defenses with relative ease." I guess they all got slaughtered then ...

Oh, wait.

They won, and not just in Hollywood, either. They really won.

There's more to war than just the hard facts of who has the best weapons. Sometimes, the inferior force does win. Much like sports, if it was simply a matter of checking who has the superior force on paper, we wouldn't even need to actually fight.

Those are scotts men....These are reapers.

[Kr0gan]

I have a better word: Tactics.

Instead of charging the Reapers into close combat because it looks cool why don't you use your superior fire range and concentrate fire on a Reaper at a time? (you hear me, Hackett?)

[Peregrin25]

tetsutsuru wrote...

One word which makes a Conventional Victory possible:  Morale.

Shepard managing a high EMS rating means the biggest galactic "Sword" fleet and "Hammer" ground teams ever assembled.  Soldiers will have solid confidence and a high morale.  High morale means every single soldier can fight harder, better, faster, stronger.  This includes EDI, in spite of being synthetic.  Remember the last private conversation with her in the FOB?  She will follow Shepard, now determined and unwavering.  The same goes for the Geth, with full-AI sentience.

You can throw all the math you want at this with fleet ratings, score, strength, or whatever else have you.  But 'morale' is the one big thing which will throw all those equations up in the air.

Know a real-life soldier who's been in an actual combat theatre, let alone one who's been in direct combat?  Go ahead and ask him/her how much of a difference morale affects the situation.  But you know, you might not even need to, there are lots of realistic movies which portray such:  300, We Were Soldiers, Saving Private Ryan, Act of Valor.  Even realistic, science fiction, Battle: Los Angeles.

Outnumbered?  Outgunned?  So, you gonna just bend over and let the Reapers have their way with you, and you just take it then?  Hell, no!  I'm gonna die, but I'm gonna make my ONE, seemingly insignificant life cost them dearly to take.

Not saying that High EMS = High Morale = instant guaranteed victory against the Reapers.  Morale is a wildcard which can definitely turn 'victory' from a mere dream or wishful thinking, into a fighting chance of possibility.

Me being a U.S. Marine infantryman and a combat vet. I agree with ever word you said. Nice to see someone point that out. Morale is like a drug. Same goes for despair too. You either go into a fight uplifted and and ready to give it your all or you aren't and way I see it in ME3 you made the largest contribution to the galaxy, brokered imposssible treaties. Inspired the entire galaxy. Who's to say the fight couldn't be won conventionally. I almost would have prefered that having 8000 EMS rating and all going into Priority: Earth. lol.

Well said!.

[dreman9999]

tetsutsuru wrote...

estebanus wrote...

Morale doesn't help when a guddamn laser destroys your ship in one shot.

tetsutsuru wrote...

Who says we don't have the capability to inflict the same on Reaper ships? Perhaps not in just one, clumsilly-aimed shot. But in a few or several, precision shots, at least Reaper Destroyers can be taken out.

111987 wrote...

Yes, but there are thousands of those.

As far as just plain ship count, Sword Fleet outnumbers Reaper ships, by A LOT, if I recall.  Reaper ships are just quite a few steps more advanced, and powerful.  Hence the problem.

Meet the  Oculus... 
http://masseffect.wi...com/wiki/Oculus 

The reaper can make endless swarms of them...They can dive into ship and destroy them from the inside out

[dreman9999]

Peregrin25 wrote...

tetsutsuru wrote...

One word which makes a Conventional Victory possible:  Morale.

Shepard managing a high EMS rating means the biggest galactic "Sword" fleet and "Hammer" ground teams ever assembled.  Soldiers will have solid confidence and a high morale.  High morale means every single soldier can fight harder, better, faster, stronger.  This includes EDI, in spite of being synthetic.  Remember the last private conversation with her in the FOB?  She will follow Shepard, now determined and unwavering.  The same goes for the Geth, with full-AI sentience.

You can throw all the math you want at this with fleet ratings, score, strength, or whatever else have you.  But 'morale' is the one big thing which will throw all those equations up in the air.

Know a real-life soldier who's been in an actual combat theatre, let alone one who's been in direct combat?  Go ahead and ask him/her how much of a difference morale affects the situation.  But you know, you might not even need to, there are lots of realistic movies which portray such:  300, We Were Soldiers, Saving Private Ryan, Act of Valor.  Even realistic, science fiction, Battle: Los Angeles.

Outnumbered?  Outgunned?  So, you gonna just bend over and let the Reapers have their way with you, and you just take it then?  Hell, no!  I'm gonna die, but I'm gonna make my ONE, seemingly insignificant life cost them dearly to take.

Not saying that High EMS = High Morale = instant guaranteed victory against the Reapers.  Morale is a wildcard which can definitely turn 'victory' from a mere dream or wishful thinking, into a fighting chance of possibility.

Me being a U.S. Marine infantryman and a combat vet. I agree with ever word you said. Nice to see someone point that out. Morale is like a drug. Same goes for despair too. You either go into a fight uplifted and and ready to give it your all or you aren't and way I see it in ME3 you made the largest contribution to the galaxy, brokered imposssible treaties. Inspired the entire galaxy. Who's to say the fight couldn't be won conventionally. I almost would have prefered that having 8000 EMS rating and all going into Priority: Earth. lol.

Well said!.

As a us. 
Marine, how do you fight an enemy that never sleeps, needs no recourse,has endless troops, and destroy platoons in a singale shot?

[111987]

Kr0gan wrote...

I have a better word: Tactics.

Instead of charging the Reapers into close combat because it looks cool why don't you use your superior fire range and concentrate fire on a Reaper at a time? (you hear me, Hackett?)

Their weapons have superior range and accuracy than our own.

[NS Wizdum]

xsdob wrote...

Yes because that's what wins wars, not numbers, tactics, or ingenuity, just morale.

You hear that Mexico, Native Americans, Hawaiians, and Japanese. You couldn't beat us because you didn't have the conviction, determination, or willingness to do anything to win like we did. Not because america had a technological advantage and a strategic cunning that most do not.

My peoples annexed islands land says otherwise.

The Japanese took out some 19 American warships and 350 warplanes in one single attack, because of morale. They were out numbered and outgunned. They only lost 5 mini-submarines and 29 planes. When an individual is "psyched up" for a battle, their body releases chemicals that can dull or eliminate pain while still speeding up reaction time. Soldiers can be fighting and running one minute, and then collapse to the ground a minute later, once the adrenaline runs out. Low morale has the opposite effect. Performance drops, fatigue and depression set in, etc. Never underestimate the power of the mind.

This is something Bioware needs to clear up. The codex is full of contradictions on just how difficult it is to kill a Reaper.

Modifié par NS Wizdum, 14 mai 2012 - 06:29 .

[tetsutsuru]

estebanus wrote...

Morale doesn't help when a guddamn laser destroys your ship in one shot.

tetsutsuru wrote...

Who says we don't have the capability to inflict the same on Reaper ships? Perhaps not in just one, clumsilly-aimed shot. But in a few or several, precision shots, at least Reaper Destroyers can be taken out.

incinerator950 wrote...

It's fairly obvious they won't.  The Mass Accelerator (proto Crucible?) that took out the Klendagon impact Reaper tore through the hull and glanced off the Crust of Klendagon, that was massive in power.  It takes the equivilant of 4 Dreadnoughts to have an equal chance of killing a Sovereign class Capital in a sustained firefight, without flanking, without forcing the Reapers to drop the mass of their reactors to move.  

For the record which no one pieced together, Reaper Destroyers are expendable compared to Capitals.  Reaper Capitals were not shown to be designed to have those weaknesses.  Stop assuming they have them.

I'm not assuming anything.  What do you think I'm assuming?

I have a localized example for you.  In single-player (as Shepard, obviously), or heck, even as my character "Hiroko" in multiplayer, who is a level 20 Female Human Infiltrator (none of that Biotic siliness  ) versus 2 Banshees.  Each of those Banshees can easilly kick my ass via Nova Scream, Warp, melee, even their famous one-hit-kill grab.  More often than not, they die and I live.  Or if I get knocked-out, my team still survives.

There are reasons combat is as fluid as it is.  Having the biggest gun doesn't a guaranteed victory 100% of the time make.

[D24O]

incinerator950 wrote...



They can be, but you do not have enough ships and manpower, as well as Fire Power.  The Council did not arm itself, they did not have respectable stockpiles of Nuclear and Anti-Matter weapons.  Everyone who does is afraid of the Collateral damage.  Destroying Mass Relays and using Suicide-FTL/Bomber ships has been debunked. 

I've always wondered why you never see WMDs used against the reapers.

[Der Bibliothekar]

Just take the Technology of the Gardian lasers, scale it up, make it bomb-pumped and stick it on a Missile... (Many of them)

I can think of dozens of conventional means to kill Reapers, but to put it simply: Thats not the concept of ME3, we all got some "conventional victory vibes", mostly because Bioware wanted us to have fun with some pretty cool scenes and not to watch something depressing like War of the Worlds with proper Vaccination

[tetsutsuru]

tetsutsuru wrote...

One word which makes a Conventional Victory possible: Morale.

Shepard managing a high EMS rating means the biggest galactic "Sword" fleet and "Hammer" ground teams ever assembled. Soldiers will have solid confidence and a high morale. High morale means every single soldier can fight harder, better, faster, stronger. This includes EDI, in spite of being synthetic. Remember the last private conversation with her in the FOB? She will follow Shepard, now determined and unwavering. The same goes for the Geth, with full-AI sentience.

You can throw all the math you want at this with fleet ratings, score, strength, or whatever else have you. But 'morale' is the one big thing which will throw all those equations up in the air.

Know a real-life soldier who's been in an actual combat theatre, let alone one who's been in direct combat? Go ahead and ask him/her how much of a difference morale affects the situation. But you know, you might not even need to, there are lots of realistic movies which portray such: 300, We Were Soldiers, Saving Private Ryan, Act of Valor. Even realistic, science fiction, Battle: Los Angeles.

Outnumbered? Outgunned? So, you gonna just bend over and let the Reapers have their way with you, and you just take it then? Hell, no! I'm gonna die, but I'm gonna make my ONE, seemingly insignificant life cost them dearly to take.

Not saying that High EMS = High Morale = instant guaranteed victory against the Reapers. Morale is a wildcard which can definitely turn 'victory' from a mere dream or wishful thinking, into a fighting chance of possibility.

Peregrin25 wrote...

Me being a U.S. Marine infantryman and a combat vet. I agree with ever word you said. Nice to see someone point that out. Morale is like a drug. Same goes for despair too. You either go into a fight uplifted and and ready to give it your all or you aren't and way I see it in ME3 you made the largest contribution to the galaxy, brokered imposssible treaties. Inspired the entire galaxy. Who's to say the fight couldn't be won conventionally. I almost would have prefered that having 8000 EMS rating and all going into Priority: Earth. lol.

Well said!.

I know this is off-topic but...

Sir, I sincerely thank you for your service.

[Zolt51]

Meatus wrote...
 Not to mention we single-handedly took down a Reaper on foot before, in less than 10 minutes. Sovereign was shredded similarly. And the one on Tuchanka was essentially hugged to death.

Single handedly? Right, that was just Shepard and the biggest fleet in the galaxy. Also this particular reaper seemed to have been deprived of brains, and a targeting system.

Also, Shepard did use both hands. So there.

Modifié par Zolt51, 14 mai 2012 - 06:35 .

[dreman9999]

NS Wizdum wrote...

xsdob wrote...

Yes because that's what wins wars, not numbers, tactics, or ingenuity, just morale.

You hear that Mexico, Native Americans, Hawaiians, and Japanese. You couldn't beat us because you didn't have the conviction, determination, or willingness to do anything to win like we did. Not because america had a technological advantage and a strategic cunning that most do not.

My peoples annexed islands land says otherwise.

The Japanese took out some 19 American warships and 350 warplanes in one single attack, because of morale. They were out numbered and outgunned. They only lost 5 mini-submarines and 29 planes. When an individual is "psyched up" for a battle, their body releases chemicals that can dull or eliminate pain while still speeding up reaction time. Soldiers can be fighting and running one minute, and then collapse to the ground a minute later, once the adrenaline runs out. Low morale has the opposite effect. Performance drops, fatigue and depression set in, etc. Never underestimate the power of the mind.

This is something Bioware needs to clear up. The codex is full of contradictions on just how difficult it is to kill a Reaper.

You people are not listening. The japenese were fighting men...Men who stop to rest, who need recorces, who had massive vuribilitiesand easy mortality.
The reaper are not that at all. They need no resourses, they have endless troops, they don't die easy, they don't sleep or stop....
We have limit resources.

[savionen]

NS Wizdum wrote...

xsdob wrote...

Yes because that's what wins wars, not numbers, tactics, or ingenuity, just morale.

You hear that Mexico, Native Americans, Hawaiians, and Japanese. You couldn't beat us because you didn't have the conviction, determination, or willingness to do anything to win like we did. Not because america had a technological advantage and a strategic cunning that most do not.

My peoples annexed islands land says otherwise.

The Japanese took out some 19 American warships and 350 warplanes in one single attack, because of morale. They were out numbered and outgunned. They only lost 5 mini-submarines and 29 planes. When an individual is "psyched up" for a battle, their body releases chemicals that can dull or eliminate pain while still speeding up reaction time. Soldiers can be fighting and running one minute, and then collapse to the ground a minute later, once the adrenaline runs out. Low morale has the opposite effect. Performance drops, fatigue and depression set in, etc. Never underestimate the power of the mind.

This is something Bioware needs to clear up. The codex is full of contradictions on just how difficult it is to kill a Reaper.

Yep, on one hand you've got Shepard being responsible for multiple Reaper deaths, in another battle you've got hit-and-run tactics destroying multiple Reapers without much of a loss, but then in another battle a single Reaper can take out an entire fleet? That makes no sense.

[dreman9999]

Der Bibliothekar wrote...

Just take the Technology of the Gardian lasers, scale it up, make it bomb-pumped and stick it on a Missile... (Many of them)

I can think of dozens of conventional means to kill Reapers, but to put it simply: Thats not the concept of ME3, we all got some "conventional victory vibes", mostly because Bioware wanted us to have fun with some pretty cool scenes and not to watch something depressing like War of the Worlds with proper Vaccination

Remeber on the rennoch  and earth mission were the reapers block and override the missial system?

[dreman9999]

savionen wrote...

NS Wizdum wrote...

xsdob wrote...

Yes because that's what wins wars, not numbers, tactics, or ingenuity, just morale.

You hear that Mexico, Native Americans, Hawaiians, and Japanese. You couldn't beat us because you didn't have the conviction, determination, or willingness to do anything to win like we did. Not because america had a technological advantage and a strategic cunning that most do not.

My peoples annexed islands land says otherwise.

The Japanese took out some 19 American warships and 350 warplanes in one single attack, because of morale. They were out numbered and outgunned. They only lost 5 mini-submarines and 29 planes. When an individual is "psyched up" for a battle, their body releases chemicals that can dull or eliminate pain while still speeding up reaction time. Soldiers can be fighting and running one minute, and then collapse to the ground a minute later, once the adrenaline runs out. Low morale has the opposite effect. Performance drops, fatigue and depression set in, etc. Never underestimate the power of the mind.

This is something Bioware needs to clear up. The codex is full of contradictions on just how difficult it is to kill a Reaper.

Yep, on one hand you've got Shepard being responsible for multiple Reaper deaths, in another battle you've got hit-and-run tactics destroying multiple Reapers without much of a loss, but then in another battle a single Reaper can take out an entire fleet? That makes no sense.

The one withShepard was with one reaper.
The hit and run win only worked once.
The battle were a singale reaper won, it was a convential battle.

[Kreidian]

Dantexr3 wrote...

I have another word:

Grunt.

Now a lot of reapers are going to die.

Harbinger: I have an Army!

Shepard: We have a Grunt!

[Rip504]

Nothing.

Liara states it will take around 100 years for the Reapers to wipe us out. That is Conventionally speaking. Since Liara has plot armor etc, Her words are golden. She knows what she is talking about. It also took the Protheans centuries to lose,obviously the Protheans were more advanced then our races.

So my one word is Nothing.

[Tapkomet]

One word: Shepard.

I mean, this human can hide in cover and shoot a Reaper's weak spot until it's dead, then repeat 20000 times. (S)he doesn't need food, sleep, meds, armor patches, and (S)he can get thermoclips from dead enemies. The fighting will go for decades, but Shepard will eventually win without a single casualty on our side.

[savionen]

dreman9999 wrote...

The one withShepard was with one reaper.
The hit and run win only worked once.
The battle were a singale reaper won, it was a convential battle.

And that is incredibly inconsistent. There's no way I can believe that a single reaper can destroy an entire fleet that is equipped with Thanix missiles and Thanix cannons without itself being destroyed.

There's CG movies in the game where you see a few dozen Alliance ships get destroyed and you see a dozen Reapers get destroyed at the same time. They're obviously not invincible. The Admirals just forget to turn on their Thanix cannons and missiles, and decided not to use any real tactics.

If a conventional victory is impossible they did a really bad job of showing it.

Modifié par savionen, 14 mai 2012 - 06:44 .

[EricHVela]

I have to disagree. Morale doesn't always work.

Sure. A defeatist attitude is a definite negative (except for suiciders).

Yet, how well did morale work for the countless past cycles?

[incinerator950]

frylock23 wrote...

Atakuma wrote...

That's a nice sentiment, but it's ultimately worthless against an enemy that can plow through your best defenses with relative ease.

Did you ever see the end of Braveheart?

Those unarmored Scotsmen charged a line of armored, mounted English knights. I'd say that fits the definition of fighting an enemy that can "plow through your best defenses with relative ease." I guess they all got slaughtered then ...

Oh, wait.

They won, and not just in Hollywood, either. They really won.

There's more to war than just the hard facts of who has the best weapons. Sometimes, the inferior force does win. Much like sports, if it was simply a matter of checking who has the superior force on paper, we wouldn't even need to actually fight.

Except we saw in game they couldn't win.  Stop using conventional level thinking, we are not their equals.  They're Techno-Organic constructs bent on subversion and destruction.  They don't eat, their hulls despense heat more efficiently without dropping drive cores.  They are Faster, stronger, supposed to be smarter, out gun and out number us.  Guerilla War's won't work when they know where your bases are, won't worry about losses, and will not morally lose any ground.  They will not retreat because they are recalled by a civilian population who don't support a war, they won't cease because their King is not allowed to tax them for a Century. 

It's not like English Knights losing to Scottish Peasants and militia, it's like Scottish Peasants fighting an AH-64D . Don't forget, while the Scotsman won those skirmishes, they're still under English law now, and have been for a long time.  If the Reapers win, we all lose permanently.