253 réponses à ce sujet

[ReXspec]

Eterna5 wrote...

If you honestly think Morale will enable you to beat an enemy that's more advanced physically, technically, and strategically, then I suggest you go read about the Native Americans and be enlightened.

Again, the OP is not saying Morale alone can win the war.  He is saying it can be a deciding factor, and it's true.  More often then not, morale is the deciding factor between victory and defeat.

[Eterna]

NoUserNameHere wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

If you honestly think Morale will enable you to beat an enemy that's more advanced physically, technically, and strategically, then I suggest you go read about the Native Americans and be enlightened.

We're guessing their movemments, if  you've done a certain asari fetch quest. We've stolen their guns for the Thanix cannon, so it's not like they're tech it totally foreign to us.


I still maintain that, with max EMS, a certain inspiring speech from Shepard would've been a cheezy (but effective) way to turn the tide.

Except no, becuase there are supposedly a thousand or two Sovereing class reapers and the council races only have about 30 or so dreadnaughts (If I recall correctly). Statistically, it's impossible. 

[ReXspec]

Karolus_V wrote...

If some attack is going to well, don't worry, is an ambush.

A little bit of a grammar error, but I get what you are saying.

"If an attack is going well, it's probably an ambush."

I forget who said that specifically...

[DevilBeast]

So, if we are to assume that good morale is all we need to defeat the reapers, how come the reaper cycle has managed to continue for so long?? F.ex: From what we hear about the protheans form Javik. They were a people dedicated to war, much like the turians, and as such it wouldn´t be impossible to imagine the protheans having a strong morale and sense of honor when it comes to combat and waging war.

I´m not sure if anyone has mentioned this already but what about the Japanese soldiers during WW2?? They were very dedicated warriors, dedicated almost fanatically to fighting for their country. But Japan still lost the war.

So, while good morale is essential in keeping your spirits up in battle, it can´t win the war on its own.

Modifié par DevilBeast, 15 mai 2012 - 02:03 .

[ReXspec]

Eterna5 wrote...

NoUserNameHere wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

If you honestly think Morale will enable you to beat an enemy that's more advanced physically, technically, and strategically, then I suggest you go read about the Native Americans and be enlightened.

We're guessing their movemments, if  you've done a certain asari fetch quest. We've stolen their guns for the Thanix cannon, so it's not like they're tech it totally foreign to us.


I still maintain that, with max EMS, a certain inspiring speech from Shepard would've been a cheezy (but effective) way to turn the tide.

Except no, becuase there are supposedly a thousand or two Sovereing class reapers and the council races only have about 30 or so dreadnaughts (If I recall correctly). Statistically, it's impossible. 

Since when is a war ever won by statistics?  You honestly think calculas can win war as opposed to grit, willpower and ingenuity?  Because, if you do, I think you need to get your head checked.

Modifié par ReXspec, 15 mai 2012 - 02:04 .

[Karolus_V]

ReXspec wrote...

Karolus_V wrote...

If some attack is going to well, don't worry, is an ambush.

A little bit of a grammar error, but I get what you are saying.

"If an attack is going well, it's probably an ambush."

I forget who said that specifically...

My english actually is...well between bearable and bad. Sorry, it isnt my native language.

[BarrelDrago]

ant also have good moral, will they ever win against my foot? probobly not.

[Rip504]

ReXspec wrote...
I'm a soulja!

Ok I'm the badguy in this movie. Duna duna duna here comes Rip.

 More then morale is needed to make a conventional victory vs the Reapers a possibility. As stated in the title.  Best present day example:(IMO) America vs Middle East. America should be considered the Reapers in this example and NO the middle east has not won. I would also state Muslims have high morale,but have yet defeated the U.S. U.N. or anyone of any significance IMO. Well you didn't compare the two,but I did. You said running through gunfire w.e. etc. I respect that.

Reapers consider themselves the Pinnacle of Life. Shepard pisses Sovereign off during ME1,showing us that Reapers indeed may have emotions,to assume they do not is nothing more then an assumption. That invalidates half of what you said. Reapers are bound but humanity is not. Assumption based on? Reapers are Robots?
As The Reapers do not want,but are willing to wipe out all civilized life.

Also billions of Zombified husk (once loved ones now the walking dead)are attacking smaller numbers of soldiers,idk that may be slightly demoralizing. Morale works both ways. Morale alone is not enough,nor does it make a Conventional victory vs the Reapers a possibility. Also the Reapers tactics do not involve speed,no they are willing to wait an enemy out. "The slaughter of entire civilization is a slow process." So keep that morale up for over hundreds of years! win win win! Compliance? Or harvest?

Anderson states the soldiers on Earth are in shock and Shepard is there only hope. Sounds like despair to me,not high morale.  In ME3 the resistance is seen as scattered,broken,scared,unsure,and rarely striking back. "We are just trying to talk to each other." As stated by Anderson.

Enraged soldiers? Well not in ME3. Maybe the Drunk soldiers on the Citadel. They looked real enraged defending their home,while getting drunk on the Citadel.
When we return to Earth,we see Reapers harvesting and doing whatever they want. We do not see Alliance and humanity conventionally holding their own. We do not see enraged soldiers. We see a broken and defeated world.
 Wouldn't have a high Morale helped at this point in the war? I did not see Morale helping at this point. Maybe the High Morale starts months later?

Morale helps Humans vs Humans. Morale means next to nothing in the War vs The Reapers. As we see in ME3.
Now how will this high Morale help us win? How will our Morale change anything? Who is to say all of humanity doesn't have high morale at this point? I may have shown some examples of us not having it,but what if we already are fighting with high Morale? What if we are still getting our head kicked in? Morale is not enough.

Your ideas of the Reapers IMO are completely wrong.

Here is a quick thought. I keep seeing examples of this and that,none of which really represent the threat or what is at stake in ME. I have one example for you. Hurricane Katrina and New Orleans. Did you watch the news after? All we had to do was rebuild and survive. "The city of survivors". No outside threat,no end of world.etc etc. Did you see how fast Morale fell? Not only were cops committing suicide,but so were soldiers and civilians. Edit: Also We had Cops killing innocent civilians.

So is it possible to control Morale,maintain morale,inspire morale,and defeat the Reapers all at the same time. The Reapers are unlike any threat we as a people have ever faced. So to compare it to anything in our history is unjustifiable.IMO

Morale is amazing and can make you "superhuman" yes I agree. I also say High Morale will not and is not helping defeat the Reapers as is,much less conventionally. If all that is being stated is that Morale effects people,then as I have said before duh! That is like saying red has three letters in it. A common known fact. If we are saying a high Morale can help defeat the Reapers,I also agree. If you are saying the one word that makes a conventional victory possible is morale,I disagree.

Did you forget the Reapers created billions of superhumans to counter this?

Modifié par Rip504, 15 mai 2012 - 02:16 .

[ReXspec]

DevilBeast wrote...

So, if we are to assume that good morale is all we need to defeat the reapers, how come the reaper cycle has managed to continue for so long?? F.ex: From what we hear about the protheans form Javik. They were a people dedicated to war, much like the turians, and as such it wouldn´t be impossible to imagine the protheans having a strong morale and sense of honor when it comes to combat and waging war.

I´m not sure if anyone has mentioned this already but what about the Japanese soldiers during WW2?? They were very dedicated warriors, dedicated almost fanatically to fighting for their country. But Japan still lost the war.

So, while good morale is essential in keeping your spirits up in battle, it can´t win the war on its own.

You are absolutely right.  You can't win a war with morale by itself.  That is what the OP was trying to say.  What the OP was trying to point out is that it can be a critical, deciding factor.

[Warrior Craess]

xsdob wrote...

Yes because that's what wins wars, not numbers, tactics, or ingenuity, just morale.

You hear that Mexico, Native Americans, Hawaiians, and Japanese. You couldn't beat us because you didn't have the conviction, determination, or willingness to do anything to win like we did. Not because america had a technological advantage and a strategic cunning that most do not.

My peoples annexed islands land says otherwise.

lol America didn't have a technological advantage for most of the war. What we did have was the ability to build non stop since we were so very isolated. The Great Generals were not Americans. They were German British and Russian. (yeah your going to through out Macarthy and Patton arn't you? might want to think about that first though.)

We turned the tide becuase we had numbers, and an undamaged infrastructure. 

[ReXspec]

Rip504 wrote...

ReXspec wrote...
I'm a soulja!

Ok I'm the badguy in this movie. Duna duna duna here comes Rip.

 More then morale is needed to make a conventional victory vs the Reapers a possibility. As stated in the title.  Best present day example:(IMO) America vs Middle East. America should be considered the Reapers in this example and NO the middle east has not won. I would also state Muslims have high morale,but have yet defeated the U.S. U.N. or anyone of any significance IMO. Well you didn't compare the two,but I did. You said running through gunfire w.e. etc. I respect that.

Reapers consider themselves the Pinnacle of Life. Shepard pisses Sovereign off during ME1,showing us that Reapers indeed may have emotions,to assume they do not is nothing more then an assumption. That invalidates half of what you said. Reapers are bound but humanity is not. Assumption based on? Reapers are Robots?
As The Reapers do not want,but are willing to wipe out all civilized life.

Also billions of Zombified husk (once loved ones now the walking dead)are attacking smaller numbers of soldiers,idk that may be slightly demoralizing. Morale works both ways. Morale alone is not enough,nor does it make a Conventional victory vs the Reapers a possibility. Also the Reapers tactics do not involve speed,no they are willing to wait an enemy out. "The slaughter of entire civilization is a slow process." So keep that morale up for over hundreds of years! win win win! Compliance? Or harvest?

Anderson states the soldiers on Earth are in shock and Shepard is there only hope. Sounds like despair to me,not high morale.  In ME3 the resistance is seen as scattered,broken,scared,unsure,and rarely striking back. "We are just trying to talk to each other." As stated by Anderson.

Enraged soldiers? Well not in ME3. Maybe the Drunk soldiers on the Citadel. They looked real enraged defending their home,while getting drunk on the Citadel.
When we return to Earth,we see Reapers harvesting and doing whatever they want. We do not see Alliance and humanity conventionally holding their own. We do not see enraged soldiers. We see a broken and defeated world.
 Wouldn't have a high Morale helped at this point in the war? I did not see Morale helping at this point. Maybe the High Morale starts months later?

Morale helps Humans vs Humans. Morale means next to nothing in the War vs The Reapers. As we see in ME3.
Now how will this high Morale help us win? How will our Morale change anything? Who is to say all of humanity doesn't have high morale at this point? I may have shown some examples of us not having it,but what if we already are fighting with high Morale? What if we are still getting our head kicked in? Morale is not enough.

Your ideas of the Reapers IMO are completely wrong.

Here is a quick thought. I keep seeing examples of this and that,none of which really represent the threat or what is at stake in ME. I have one example for you. Hurricane Katrina and New Orleans. Did you watch the news after? All we had to do was rebuild and survive. "The city of survivors". No outside threat,no end of world.etc etc. Did you see how fast Morale fell? Not only were cops committing suicide,but so were soldiers and civilians. So is it possible to control Morale,maintain morale,inspire morale,and defeat the Reapers all at the same time. The Reapers are unlike any threat we as a people have ever faced. So to compare it to anything in our history is unjustifiable.IMO

Morale is amazing and can make you "superhuman" yes I agree. I also say High Morale will not and is not helping defeat the Reapers as is,much less conventionally. If all that is being stated is that Morale effects people,then as I have said before duh! That is like saying red has three letters in it. A common known fact. If we are saying a high Morale can help defeat the Reapers,I also agree. If you are saying the one word that makes a conventional victory possible is morale,I disagree.

Did you forget the Reapers created billions of superhumans to counter this?

"I'm a soulja!"

<_<

At the risk at sounding bitter/angry, really?  That is quite a long list of disdain.  I was using historical comparisons for similarities--not examples.  If you did, indeed, read my post, you would have seen that I said (three times, I think.  or, at least implied) that the Reapers are not a conventional enemy.  In the case of any soldier fighting such an enemy, that soldier (or, more specifically, an officer) will use aformentioned historical examples to deliver as close to an effective counter to an unconventional strategy without re-inventing the wheel.  It's how military doctrine works.  You take existing doctrine, and adapt it to the situation.

As for the effects of morale, you obviously have not seen what it can do to soldiers on the field.  So, again, I'm not trying to talk down to anyone, but I highly recommend listening and actually reading what people who have gone through extreme physical stress such as deployment have to say and take it to heart--or at least take it into consideration without dismissing their experience altogether.

Modifié par ReXspec, 15 mai 2012 - 02:26 .

[DevilBeast]

Warrior Craess wrote...

xsdob wrote...

Yes because that's what wins wars, not numbers, tactics, or ingenuity, just morale.

You hear that Mexico, Native Americans, Hawaiians, and Japanese. You couldn't beat us because you didn't have the conviction, determination, or willingness to do anything to win like we did. Not because america had a technological advantage and a strategic cunning that most do not.

My peoples annexed islands land says otherwise.

lol America didn't have a technological advantage for most of the war. What we did have was the ability to build non stop since we were so very isolated. The Great Generals were not Americans. They were German British and Russian. (yeah your going to through out Macarthy and Patton arn't you? might want to think about that first though.)

We turned the tide becuase we had numbers, and an undamaged infrastructure. 

That is true, U.S.´ ability to replace lost ships, tanks, planes etc. etc. was what kept the Americans one step ahead of the other nations during WW2.

[ReXspec]

Warrior Craess wrote...

xsdob wrote...

Yes because that's what wins wars, not numbers, tactics, or ingenuity, just morale.

You hear that Mexico, Native Americans, Hawaiians, and Japanese. You couldn't beat us because you didn't have the conviction, determination, or willingness to do anything to win like we did. Not because america had a technological advantage and a strategic cunning that most do not.

My peoples annexed islands land says otherwise.

lol America didn't have a technological advantage for most of the war. What we did have was the ability to build non stop since we were so very isolated. The Great Generals were not Americans. They were German British and Russian. (yeah your going to through out Macarthy and Patton arn't you? might want to think about that first though.)

We turned the tide becuase we had numbers, and an undamaged infrastructure. 

It was not the only factor that played in our victory, however.  As far as morale goes, I think WW2 is a poor example, accept in certain situations like the Battle of the Bulge.

[ShepnTali]

We're talking fantasy fiction here, not real wars.

[ReXspec]

ShepnTali wrote...

We're talking fantasy fiction here, not real wars.

If the writers goal was to make the battles, history, and scale over-the-top, then I would buy that.

But, my impression, based on the tremendously detailed codex entries on military doctrine and technology, is that Bioware wanted to base the universe (the war included) in some sort of plausible facts grounded in some sort of reality.

[DJBare]

I never understand why folk consider a conventional war means head on attack, that would be suicide, but there are other forms of conventional war that can bring down the mightiest, it's not just about muscle, it's about using that most wonderful gift, the grey matter, the brain.

[Scalabrine]

OMG...it's impossible.

You guys seriously underestimate the reapers. We're talking about a race that has a million years of advantage on us. It's like the native americans vs turians... Or at least it should be like that.

[ReXspec]

DJBare wrote...

I never understand why folk consider a conventional war means head on attack, that would be suicide, but there are other forms of conventional war that can bring down the mightiest, it's not just about muscle, it's about using that most wonderful gift, the grey matter, the brain.

This^  A MILLION TIMES THIS^

[ReXspec]

Scalabrine wrote...

OMG...it's inprobable.

You guys seriously underestimate the reapers. We're talking about a race that has a million years of advantage on us. It's like the native americans vs turians... Or at least it should be like that.

Fix'd

[DevilBeast]

Hmm.. I think someone else has already mentioned this, but it seems the reapers themselves actually believe morale to be quite important because much of their "strength" lies in their ability to break down the mind and whittle down their enemies´ spirits. F.ex indoctrination turns friends against friends rendering us paranoid of each other. And as Garrus mentions it at some point during ME3 the fact that the bulk of the reaper forces consists of those they have harvested (which, of course, also gives them a tremendous advantage on other fronts: When we lose one of ours, they gain one) meaning that they are able to further destroy their enemies morale by letting their enemies face their former "huskified" comrades.

[DJBare]

Scalabrine wrote...

OMG...it's impossible.

You guys seriously underestimate the reapers. We're talking about a race that has a million years of advantage on us. It's like the native americans vs turians... Or at least it should be like that.

Here we have an example of an indoctrinated victim, viewing the reapers with awe.

[KaeserZen]

ReXspec wrote...

As much as I appreciate the advocacy, I can't blame people for basing opinions on limited experience--not EVERYONE is going to be a soldier, but, again, I appreciate the appreciation.

Humans are pattern-seeking creatures, though.  All too often, however, this makes people cold to the fact that war is far too conflagrant and volatile to predict the outcome of 99% of combat scenarios.

Quoted for Truth, again.

I have no gripe in letting people formulate opinions based on limite experience, heck, I'd rather they do that instead of mindlessly drooling and staring at their computer.
However, what rubs me in the wrong way, is when they refuse to consider alternatives or acknownledge their lack of experience, and refuse to be proven wrong. Being proven wrong, on the contrary, increases your knowledge, he he he.

I have never been in a firefight (yet, hehe, who knows what may happen ?), but even with the best strategic and tactical plan, things can get ugly really fast I suppose. I did play some table-top strategy game (W40k), and even in these games, there are completely random/unexpected factors that make the best tactic/gear/outfit irrelevant if you are too blunt NOT to adapt, he he.

[Scalabrine]

DJBare wrote...

Scalabrine wrote...

OMG...it's impossible.

You guys seriously underestimate the reapers. We're talking about a race that has a million years of advantage on us. It's like the native americans vs turians... Or at least it should be like that.

Here we have an example of an indoctrinated victim, viewing the reapers with awe.

lol

[D.Sharrah]

tetsutsuru wrote...

One word which makes a Conventional Victory possible:  Morale.

Shepard managing a high EMS rating means the biggest galactic "Sword" fleet and "Hammer" ground teams ever assembled.  Soldiers will have solid confidence and a high morale.  High morale means every single soldier can fight harder, better, faster, stronger.  This includes EDI, in spite of being synthetic.  Remember the last private conversation with her in the FOB?  She will follow Shepard, now determined and unwavering.  The same goes for the Geth, with full-AI sentience.

You can throw all the math you want at this with fleet ratings, score, strength, or whatever else have you.  But 'morale' is the one big thing which will throw all those equations up in the air.

Know a real-life soldier who's been in an actual combat theatre, let alone one who's been in direct combat?  Go ahead and ask him/her how much of a difference morale affects the situation.  But you know, you might not even need to, there are lots of realistic movies which portray such:  300, We Were Soldiers, Saving Private Ryan, Act of Valor.  Even realistic, science fiction, Battle: Los Angeles.

Outnumbered?  Outgunned?  So, you gonna just bend over and let the Reapers have their way with you, and you just take it then?  Hell, no!  I'm gonna die, but I'm gonna make my ONE, seemingly insignificant life cost them dearly to take.

Not saying that High EMS = High Morale = instant guaranteed victory against the Reapers.  Morale is a wildcard which can definitely turn 'victory' from a mere dream or wishful thinking, into a fighting chance of possibility.

Even better one word reason: Shepard.

[ReXspec]

DevilBeast wrote...

Hmm.. I think someone else has already mentioned this, but it seems the reapers themselves actually believe morale to be quite important because much of their "strength" lies in their ability to break down the mind and whittle down their enemies´ spirits. F.ex indoctrination turns friends against friends rendering us paranoid of each other. And as Garrus mentions it at some point during ME3 the fact that the bulk of the reaper forces consists of those they have harvested (which, of course, also gives them a tremendous advantage on other fronts: When we lose one of ours, they gain one) meaning that they are able to further destroy their enemies morale by letting their enemies face their former "huskified" comrades.

Of course they place importance on morale.  It's an effective way to create expendable shock troops and break soldiers mentally.

As I said before, morale is a deadly asset.  Even the Reapers recognize that.  There are codex entries that state they use this tactic to break down soldiers, and instill distrust in allies.