73 réponses à ce sujet

[LobselVith8]

Being the progeny of a known apostate should have been a prime reason to keep Hawke or Bethany away from Kirkwall.

[Ryzaki]

...that too.

It really begs the question of why no rumors spread faster. It takes around 2 years for the templars to catch on. (more if Hawke's the mage)

Modifié par Ryzaki, 26 mai 2012 - 07:41 .

[TEWR]

Ryzaki wrote...

@Eternal: Leandra doesn't exactly seem the sharpest knife in the rack to me willingly going to Kirkwall of all places with an apostate child. Especially once she realized there was no wealth to shield them. It's boggling that Hawke/Bethany don't get hauled off to the circle as soon as she blasts magic infront of those guards.

That's a different issue, as I said before. That's dealing with how bad the game is designed around a Mage family.

LobselVith8 wrote...

Being the progeny of a known apostate should have been a prime reason to keep Hawke or Bethany away from Kirkwall.

I imagine that after Malcolm fled to Ferelden the investigation was dropped.

But remember, at the time Leandra is still assuming that there is an estate. Even though they're Malcolm's children, had the estate still been there they would've been safe. The Templars wouldn't have been able to touch them if the Amells were still nobility.

Money allows for Mages to live outside of the Circle, as we learn about through MotA's Mage Armor codex.

Once you find out that the estate is gone, that's where we fall into the abyss that is bad game design. You're given no solid reason why you should stay there when your lives are in danger, why the Templars aren't taking you in, and so on and so forth.

[robertthebard]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

@Eternal: Leandra doesn't exactly seem the sharpest knife in the rack to me willingly going to Kirkwall of all places with an apostate child. Especially once she realized there was no wealth to shield them. It's boggling that Hawke/Bethany don't get hauled off to the circle as soon as she blasts magic infront of those guards.

That's a different issue, as I said before. That's dealing with how bad the game is designed around a Mage family.

LobselVith8 wrote...

Being the progeny of a known apostate should have been a prime reason to keep Hawke or Bethany away from Kirkwall.

I imagine that after Malcolm fled to Ferelden the investigation was dropped.

But remember, at the time Leandra is still assuming that there is an estate. Even though they're Malcolm's children, had the estate still been there they would've been safe. The Templars wouldn't have been able to touch them if the Amells were still nobility.

Money allows for Mages to live outside of the Circle, as we learn about through MotA's Mage Armor codex.

Once you find out that the estate is gone, that's where we fall into the abyss that is bad game design. You're given no solid reason why you should stay there when your lives are in danger, why the Templars aren't taking you in, and so on and so forth.

Have you run the dialog about just leaving, as I have.  It seems there's not a lot of options to go anywhere else once you've spent whatever money you may have had to get to Kirkwall.  But this really has nothing to do with not wanting to do the quests, and then complaining that you can't go to the Deep Roads.  If you want the stuff you're required to have, you have to do the work to get them.  If you're unwilling to do the work "because it might be risky", then you can't go, and why would you want to, if it's too risky to do the work to go?  The Deep Roads are far more dangerous, or should have been, than Kirkwall.

[Face of Evil]

Ryzaki wrote...

@Eternal: Leandra doesn't exactly seem the sharpest knife in the rack to me willingly going to Kirkwall of all places with an apostate child. Especially once she realized there was no wealth to shield them. It's boggling that Hawke/Bethany don't get hauled off to the circle as soon as she blasts magic infront of those guards.

I know that Kirkwall seems like the worst possible place in the world to bring an apostate due to the amount of power that the templars wield, but virtually all of Thedas is dangerous for apostates. Ferelden's templars were relatively lenient on mages, but even Lothering was a dangerous place to live. Kirkwall's templars are actually less effective than they could be because the citizenry largely despises Meredith and they actively work to undermine her efforts.

Modifié par Face of Evil, 27 mai 2012 - 01:30 .

[LobselVith8]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I imagine that after Malcolm fled to Ferelden the investigation was dropped.

But remember, at the time Leandra is still assuming that there is an estate. Even though they're Malcolm's children, had the estate still been there they would've been safe. The Templars wouldn't have been able to touch them if the Amells were still nobility.

Money allows for Mages to live outside of the Circle, as we learn about through MotA's Mage Armor codex.

Once you find out that the estate is gone, that's where we fall into the abyss that is bad game design. You're given no solid reason why you should stay there when your lives are in danger, why the Templars aren't taking you in, and so on and so forth.

The children of mages belong to the Chantry, remember? And it's a huge risk to assume that some templars would care about nobility when, as Alistair noted, templars aren't beholden to the nobility. Their duties are sacred to the Maker, per the Grand Cleric in Origins. The writers did little to give weight to the plot, or much incentive to do certain things when th financial requirement was already met (via Petrice).

[Face of Evil]

LobselVith8 wrote...

The children of mages belong to the Chantry, remember?

That's not an absolute rule: children born within the Circle go to a Chantry orphanage because there's often no one else to take them and there's a good chance they're mages. If all children of mages went to the Circle, then Evelina's orphans would have been rounded up.

LobselVith8 wrote...

And it's a huge risk to assume that some templars would care about nobility when, as Alistair noted, templars aren't beholden to the nobility.

But they don't operate with absolute impunity, either. Hunting down mages doesn't pay for their weapons, armour or food, and they don't magically generate new templars out of thin air; they rely on contributions from the general populace, but particularly the nobility.

They do have to exercise SOME tact to keep the people on their side. And with any police force, there are always going to be members susceptible to corruption.

Modifié par Face of Evil, 27 mai 2012 - 02:01 .

[LobselVith8]

Eveline's orphans weren't her biological children, and Gaider cited only Grey Warden mages as an exemption to that rule. Married or not, the children of mages belong to the Chantry. Last I checked, Malcolm wasn't a Grey Warden.

Also, I don't see how it was wise to stay once it became clear that there was no estate and fortune. The sibling's very, very weak excuse notwithstanding.

[Ryzaki]

Face of Evil wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

@Eternal: Leandra doesn't exactly seem the sharpest knife in the rack to me willingly going to Kirkwall of all places with an apostate child. Especially once she realized there was no wealth to shield them. It's boggling that Hawke/Bethany don't get hauled off to the circle as soon as she blasts magic infront of those guards.

I know that Kirkwall seems like the worst possible place in the world to bring an apostate due to the amount of power that the templars wield, but virtually all of Thedas is dangerous for apostates. Ferelden's templars were relatively lenient on mages, but even Lothering was a dangerous place to live. Kirkwall's templars are actually less effective than they could be because the citizenry largely despises Meredith and they actively work to undermine her efforts.

My Hawke constantly hears apostates talking about how much better it is pretty much ANYWHERE else (save the Qunari).

Yeah...not seeing going to Kirkwall as a good idea.

[Face of Evil]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Also, I don't see how it was wise to stay once it became clear that there was no estate and fortune. The sibling's very, very weak excuse notwithstanding.

There wasn't anywhere else to go.

Ryzaki wrote...

My Hawke constantly hears apostates talking about how much better it is pretty much ANYWHERE else (save the Qunari).

I hear Circle mages complain about their plight, and certainly the Kirkwall Circle is pretty terrible. Apostates? Not so much.

The only apostates I deal with regularly are Merrill and Anders, but they have their own issues.

Modifié par Face of Evil, 27 mai 2012 - 03:07 .

[Ryzaki]

Face of Evil wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Also, I don't see how it was wise to stay once it became clear that there was no estate and fortune. The sibling's very, very weak excuse notwithstanding.

There wasn't anywhere else to go.

Ryzaki wrote...

My Hawke constantly hears apostates talking about how much better it is pretty much ANYWHERE else (save the Qunari).

I hear Circle mages complain about their plight, and certainly the Kirkwall Circle is pretty terrible. Apostates? Not so much.

The only apostates I deal with regularly are Merrill and Anders, but they have their own issues.

If you side with the templars in act 1 you get some quest to capture several apostates on the wounded coast in act 2. They flat out say they'd rather be anywhere other than Kirkwall. (and hell so does Grace and Alain) when Hawke asks them where they intend to go. Kirkwall is the worst place an apostate (or any mage) can be short of Qunari lands. 

Or at least that's the impression they gave me.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 27 mai 2012 - 03:13 .

[Fidget6]

 You're forced to do all the pain-in-the-ass fetch quests before you can go to the deep roads.

[jbrand2002uk]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Eveline's orphans weren't her biological children, and Gaider cited only Grey Warden mages as an exemption to that rule. Married or not, the children of mages belong to the Chantry. Last I checked, Malcolm wasn't a Grey Warden.

Also, I don't see how it was wise to stay once it became clear that there was no estate and fortune. The sibling's very, very weak excuse notwithstanding.

Actually he was its mentioned in Legacy When you speak to Larius who recruited him shortly after Leandra fell pregnant with Hawke it was mentioned thats Hawke's father is deceased but not much more meaning that either Malcom was a recruit who hadnt gone through his joining or that he had gone through his joining after renewing the seals on Corepheyus's tomb  then left the order to raise his family after the disagreement with Commander of the Grey Larius .

[LobselVith8]

Malcolm wasn't a Grey Warden, he simply did something for them precisely because he didn't have the taint in him as an apostate.

[TEWR]

double post

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 27 mai 2012 - 06:44 .

[TEWR]

LobselVith8 wrote...


The children of mages belong to the Chantry, remember?

The Chantry is corrupt and hypocritical, remember? 

The law may say all children of Mages belong to the Chantry, but they -- the Templars and the Chantry -- don't necessarily follow that rule.

We have evidence to say that you can bribe a Knight-Commander -- who can instruct those under his authority -- and live outside of the Circle (via MotA's Robes of Enchanter Ilana codex).

Actually, we also see it through the Mage's Collective. You can bribe a Knight-Commander of Redcliffe with lyrium potions and he lets Mages retain their freedom.

Hey Lob, you know what's funny in a sad sort of way? Malcolm Hawke is the type of guy we hoped for, since he's pretty much a proactive and intelligent Mage.

jbrand2002uk wrote...

Actually he was its mentioned in Legacy

No he wasn't. Legacy made it explicitly clear that they needed a non-Warden Mage to reinforce the seals. Malcolm did work for them yes, but he wasn't a Warden.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 27 mai 2012 - 06:46 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

robertthebard wrote...

I agreed to Varric's plan because either I'm a mage, and I need coin/status to hide behind, or my sister is, and she needs that shield.  What about the life of an adventurer isn't risk?  Do you expect that the money you need to improve your lot in life is just going to walk up and say "here ya' go, here's all the money you need"?  You talk about metagaming, but keep calling everything quests.  Did it ever occur to you that people are trying to give you jobs?  There is no Welfare line in DA, you're going to have to work for your coin, and they don't have a McDonald's, and it's fairly obvious that you can't live in mom's basement and let her take care of everything for you.

Hawke had just spend a year as a successful smuggler/mercenary.  He's clearly able to get by, and he's living rent-free in Gamlen's place.

Moreover, we don't know that Hawke needs to buy food.

Hawke can't know that Bertrand is his only option until he's done an exhaustive search of Kirkwall and its surrounding areas.  Agreeing to Varric's plan before doing that seems reckless.

[LobselVith8]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

We have evidence that you can bribe a Knight-Commander -- who can instruct those under his authority -- and live outside of the Circle (via MotA's Robes of Enchanter Ilana codex).

Actually, we also see it through the Mage's Collective. You can bribe a Knight-Commander of Redcliffe with lyrium potions and he lets Mages retain their freedom.

Hey Lob, you know what's funny in a sad sort of way? Malcolm Hawke is the type of guy we hoped for, since he's pretty much a proactive and intelligent Mage.

I still see it as quite the gamble, but I agree that Malcolm comes across as far more competent and intelligent than his eldest, who seems prohibited by the Plot from being remotely proactive or cunning.

[robertthebard]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

robertthebard wrote...

I agreed to Varric's plan because either I'm a mage, and I need coin/status to hide behind, or my sister is, and she needs that shield.  What about the life of an adventurer isn't risk?  Do you expect that the money you need to improve your lot in life is just going to walk up and say "here ya' go, here's all the money you need"?  You talk about metagaming, but keep calling everything quests.  Did it ever occur to you that people are trying to give you jobs?  There is no Welfare line in DA, you're going to have to work for your coin, and they don't have a McDonald's, and it's fairly obvious that you can't live in mom's basement and let her take care of everything for you.

Hawke had just spend a year as a successful smuggler/mercenary.  He's clearly able to get by, and he's living rent-free in Gamlen's place.

Moreover, we don't know that Hawke needs to buy food.

Hawke can't know that Bertrand is his only option until he's done an exhaustive search of Kirkwall and its surrounding areas.  Agreeing to Varric's plan before doing that seems reckless.

I can answer that in three words:  set for life.  However, w/out the protection of either the mercs or the smugglers, they are now exposed, and in case you didn't check, you don't have a lot of coin to throw around if you have to bribe somebody here or there to look the other way.  Hawke has no way to know that the templars will get Bethany anyway.  So trying to set themselves up for life is logical.  It's a risk, Hawke will admit that in dialog with Tomwise, but, as he/she can say, if it's successful, it will be worth it.  Remember, they weren't trying to be Bartrand's partner initially, they were just trying to get jobs on the expedition, so it's not like they knew nothing about it.  Being a partner just meant a bigger piece of the pie, and would indeed be worth the investment, unless it totally bombed, or everybody died, in which case it wouldn't matter anyway.

The problem with trying to work w/out somebody shielding them is, as I mentioned, that they are now on their own if something should happen, which it of course can, depending on how it's played out.  There are several outcomes for Bethany, including death, being placed in the circle, or being recruited into the Wardens.  However, by the time they are ready to go on the expedition, money and maps in hand, and all quests done, they still don't have enough to keep hidden, and Gamlen does love to talk.

[Sylvius the Mad]

You're making arguments for why going along with the plot is reasonable. No one is disputing that following the plot is a credible choice.

But the game assumes that everyone will follow the plot, and do so for similar reasons, and that's a massive failing of the game.

[SiIencE]

One thing about the deeproads, why would Hawke need a partner? You got the maps what's there to stop you? Bertrand needs a partner to get there not Hawke since bertrand has no 'good entrances' why bother? Second the only reason you were able to buy the Hightown mansion was because YOU took some treasure from there no shared profits whatsoever.

And second if i were to have that much money afterwards i sure as hell wouldn't stay in Kirkwall.

[thats1evildude]

SiIencE wrote...

One thing about the deeproads, why would Hawke need a partner? You got the maps what's there to stop you? Bertrand needs a partner to get there not Hawke since bertrand has no 'good entrances' why bother? Second the only reason you were able to buy the Hightown mansion was because YOU took some treasure from there no shared profits whatsoever.

The point of the expedition wasn't simply to go into the Deep Roads, but to a specific point in the Deep Roads that Bartrand kept secret — namely, the Primeval Thaig. Hawke couldn't have gotten there on his/her own because only Bartrand knew about the scavengers who had discovered the place.

[brushyourteeth]

Hawke was also funding only half of the expedition. He/she needed Bartrand as much as Bartrand needed him/her.

[robertthebard]

thats1evildude wrote...

SiIencE wrote...

One thing about the deeproads, why would Hawke need a partner? You got the maps what's there to stop you? Bertrand needs a partner to get there not Hawke since bertrand has no 'good entrances' why bother? Second the only reason you were able to buy the Hightown mansion was because YOU took some treasure from there no shared profits whatsoever.

The point of the expedition wasn't simply to go into the Deep Roads, but to a specific point in the Deep Roads that Bartrand kept secret — namely, the Primeval Thaig. Hawke couldn't have gotten there on his/her own because only Bartrand knew about the scavengers who had discovered the place.

That point is made in the Deep Roads too, you can specifically ask how he knew about it.  Also, in regard to the money from the expedition, Varric sold whatever you brought out, and Bohdan brings you the balance of the money from it as soon as you come out of the Keep, indicating he got the money from Varric.