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[CarlSpackler]

  There have obviously been countless threads discussing everyone's reaction to Morrigan's offer, but what I would like to know is what everyone's take on the nature of what she is proposing.  (Or if David or one of the other devs could clarify that would be fantastic.)

  First of all how does DAO view the human soul?  I ask this because at least according to Morrigan the soul is distinct from the body.  One of the many reasons I turned down Morrigan's offer was the thought that she would conceive my child only to have my child's soul obliterated by this "old god"'s soul.  There were many things I found distrubing about her offer and as my character was as altrouistic as he could be, Morrigan's offer didn't have much logical warrant as I could in no wise bring myself to trust her motivations. Bottom line my character sacrificing himself for the good of the kingdom in the wake of everything he had been through was an extremely satisfying ending with excellent emotional payoff.  (As I mentioned in a previous thread, I did a reload and played through accepting the offer to see how it would play out, must admit I felt like I had participated in something very sinister at the end of the game.  Once again good writing there.)

  So back to my question, by conceiving with Morrigan does the player (or NPC who does the deed) sacrifice the soul of the child in favour of this old god?  Or is there a fusion that takes place, or perhaps the child is able to absorb the power while retaining its identity?  (Keep in mind I am trying to look at how the DAO universe defines the soul, not how we would view in RL in our respective religions or naturalistic worldview.) 

 Thoughts?  Or devs care to elucidate?

Modifié par CarlSpackler, 09 décembre 2009 - 04:34 .

[Hanover Fist 1970]

Morrigan states if prodded in the conversation, that the child will not be harmed it will be "changed" indicating a possible fusion. What that means ultimately is still unclear to me as well though.



On a side note , I find it odd that she is so quick to deny and condemn those that believe in the maker and the chantry, yet she believes in "Old Gods".

[The Angry One]

She doesn't believe in "Old Gods", she knows that there are big dragons with immense powers that have been turned into Archdemons.

There's a vast difference between something you can see who's effects are tangible and something people of questionable reliability *claim* exists.

[CarlSpackler]

The Angry One wrote...

She doesn't believe in "Old Gods", she knows that there are big dragons with immense powers that have been turned into Archdemons.
There's a vast difference between something you can see who's effects are tangible and something people of questionable reliability *claim* exists.

I don't know, the way she talked during the offer conversation implied to me that she believed in the old gods.  Perhaps not exactly the way the world at large defined them, but she seemed to attatch something more to them than an ordinary high dragon.  She did claim that she trusted her mother's magic, so it seems likely Flemeth had more information as to the nature of the old gods.

[Recidiva]

I think it's safe to assume Morrigan is lying about anything and everything she needs to lie about in order to get her way.



I'm assuming the nature of the offer is that she's going to capture the essence of an old God and use that vessel to gather as much power as she can when she takes over the body.



And then I'm assuming that's going to create a worse threat in the future than the Blight we're facing now.



I think you're ultimately sacrificing not only the soul of the child, but the soul of the Old God, in order for Morrigan to use the power she gains from that for her own ultimately not-so-happy ends, which all involve power. They might even both still be there, but she feeds off them in the manner of a demon enslaving spirit to her will.



She wanted the Anvil to stay and wanted the "Power of the Maker" that provided her. She wanted Wynne to figure out how to enslave another spirit in order to extend her own life and thought Wynne was wasting the opportunity to do so.



Yes, very bad things. Not just potentially the obliteration of a soul, but I'm assuming keeping it there and enslaving it and using it's energy to fuel herself and her goals.

[The Angry One]

It's pretty clear the old gods are not ordinary high dragons, they're vastly more intelligent and when tainted they control the entire darkspawn horde.

That doesn't make them gods or divine, that makes them beings of immense, proven magical power that makes Morrigan cream herself with delight.

[Recidiva]

Hanover Fist 1970 wrote...

Morrigan states if prodded in the conversation, that the child will not be harmed it will be "changed" indicating a possible fusion. What that means ultimately is still unclear to me as well though.

On a side note , I find it odd that she is so quick to deny and condemn those that believe in the maker and the chantry, yet she believes in "Old Gods".

The Maker has no proof.  Almost anything in the game regarding the Maker is inherited from Andraste and the Chantry. The "Old Gods" in the form of dragons clearly exist.  She doesn't require faith to know they're there.   In fact if she had any doubts at the beginning, the Archdemon, the High Dragon and her own mother can prove to her that no faith is required.

[marshalleck]

CarlSpackler wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

She doesn't believe in "Old Gods", she knows that there are big dragons with immense powers that have been turned into Archdemons.
There's a vast difference between something you can see who's effects are tangible and something people of questionable reliability *claim* exists.

I don't know, the way she talked during the offer conversation implied to me that she believed in the old gods.  Perhaps not exactly the way the world at large defined them, but she seemed to attatch something more to them than an ordinary high dragon.  She did claim that she trusted her mother's magic, so it seems likely Flemeth had more information as to the nature of the old gods.

"Believing in" Old Gods is somewhat akin to believing in the Sun, or gravity. They are there, you see or feel them, they can affect you in very real ways. Or will be once Morrigan brings one back. There's really no faith involved.

Modifié par marshalleck, 09 décembre 2009 - 05:06 .

[Curlain]

Except no one has seen a 'Old God' to be fair, all we have seen is a tainted dragon that could be an 'Old God', it could just be a High Dragon, as despite looking tainted it didn't do anything really at a High Dragon couldn't. Even the soul transfer could just be due to the dragon being connected to the darkspawn hive-mind.  Morrigan hasn't seen one, she's going on what her mother said (since she can make this offer without getting the grimoire it has to be what her mother said) that they exist, and are somehow different then your regular High Dragon (or should be, otherwise why bother with the difficulty of getting an Archdemon's soul, when there are other much more accessible High Dragons out there).

So yes, it still is a little odd and hyporitical in my opinion, Morrigan is believing in these 'Old Gods' as great ancient powers by faith it seems, based on what her mother told her, no different really to believing in the Chantry or accepting the Maker exists cause of the Ashes

Modifié par Curlain, 09 décembre 2009 - 05:10 .

[Original182]

CarlSpackler wrote...
I don't know, the way she talked during the offer conversation implied to me that she believed in the old gods.  Perhaps not exactly the way the world at large defined them, but she seemed to attatch something more to them than an ordinary high dragon.  She did claim that she trusted her mother's magic, so it seems likely Flemeth had more information as to the nature of the old gods.

Yes it is clear that the archdemon is not just any ordinary dragon. It is clearly a dragon, but it also has a soul of an old god. "Something" has to pass into the grey warden that destroys the grey warden's soul. Numerous sources use the term soul, from grey wardens, chantry, morrigan, etc.

If any dragon would do, Morrigan would just capture the High Dragon worshipped by the Andraste Cult, and not go through all the trouble of getting the archdemon.

Edit: Curlain beat me to it.

Modifié par Original182, 09 décembre 2009 - 05:09 .

[marshalleck]

Grey Wardens are another source of information about Old Gods. If you don't want to believe Morrigan, believe Riordan. If you don't want to believe anyone or anything then declare yourself a nihilist and have yourself committed.

Modifié par marshalleck, 09 décembre 2009 - 05:10 .

[The Angry One]

Curlain wrote...

Except no one has seen a 'Old God' to be fair, all we have seen is a tainted dragon that could be an 'Old God', it could just be a High Dragon, as despite looking tainted it didn't do anything really at a High Dragon couldn't. Even the soul transfer could just be due to the dragon being connected to the darkspawn hive-mind.  Morrigan hasn't seen one, she's going on what her mother said (since she can make this offer without getting the grimoire it has to be what her mother wrote) that they exist, and are somehow different then your regular High Dragon (or should be, otherwise why bother with the difficulty of getting an Archdemon's soul, when there are other much more accessible High Dragons out there).

So yes, it still is a little odd and hyporitical in my opinion, Morrigan is believing in these 'Old Gods' as great ancient powers by faith it seems, based on what her mother told her, no different really to believing in the Chantry or accepting the Maker exists cause of the Ashes

A High Dragon could never control the entire dark spawn horde. Not one single other tainted creature has this kind of power.

[Curlain]

Seemed the High Dragon in the Andraste cult could control her dragons fine, to the point they were happy to work and fight alongside cultists, who knows what a being like a High Dragon could control if it were plugged into the darkspawn hivemind? I'm not saying it isn't a 'Old God' (I hope it is, there are more interesting story possiblities that way) but I don't think you can say it is either, it's all a matter of belief to me

(at least untill the sequel)

Modifié par Curlain, 09 décembre 2009 - 05:12 .

[The Angry One]

Curlain wrote...

Seemed the High Dragon in the Andraste cult could control her dragons fine, to the point they were happy to work and fight alongside cultists, who knows what a being like a High Dragon could control if it were plugged into the darkspawn hivemind? I'm not saying it isn't a 'Old God' (I hope it is, there are more interesting story possiblities that way) but I don't think you can say it is either, it's all a matter of belief to me

Domination over lesser members of one's own species hardly equates to controlling the group mind of the darkspawn horde, or you might as well say an ant queen could make a good Archdemon.

[marshalleck]

good lord

http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Dragon

At some point you have to accept that a duck really is a duck and the developers are not lying to you

Modifié par marshalleck, 09 décembre 2009 - 05:16 .

[The Angry One]

In the end, old gods having tangible power are backed up by:

- Historical accounts

- Grey Warden testimony

- The fact that darkspawn spend all their time outside of Blights looking for them

- Archdemons, which Morrigan has SEEN



The Maker being a divine being responsible for all creation or in fact existing at all is backed up by:

- The Chantry's word.



Yeah.

[Curlain]

It says Dragons have the intelligence of dolphins, so it's quite possible that a being like that could control a hive mind mentality like the darkspawn, I can't see it's out of the realm of possibly (parituclarly as some codexes suggest there may be more to Draconic intelligence them previously thought in reference to the Dragon cults). Anything else about Old Gods are drawn from records by Tenvinter, Chantry etc, thus open to the bais and viewpoiints of those who wrote them, not really fact.  The historical accounts are writen by people and are fallible, paritcularly since they had there own faith point (did the tenvinter ever see an 'Old God' or was that just a reason that eventally became attributed to humanity gaining knowlege of magic, an allegory for a pathway, did they just start worship as a Dragon cult and then it developed as the Imperium grew leading to 7 Dragon-god figurehead evolving, who knows, it's all subjective based on human writen accounts).

So again, it could be a Old God, but it could be a High Dragon (with the intellgence of a dolphin and prehaps more, particulary if boosted by the hive mind). Persoally I think it could well be a 'Old God', but there not more tangible evidence for it then the Maker (ie the Ashes which can be accepted or explained away as well.

So for me it is a matter of belief, all we can say of the Archdemon as fact is it's a tainted dragon

Modifié par Curlain, 09 décembre 2009 - 05:22 .

[Klystron]

I took Morrigan's deal, but also cut a deal with Flemeth (I was too low level, I tried to kill her but got tired of reloading).  So it's conceivable Morrigan could steal the Old God's vessel & then have her mom show up & try to do the same to her.

I hope we get to see more about this, it's fascinating.

[The Angry One]

You know what also has the intelligence of dolphins? Dolphins. Do you think a dolphin could be an Archdemon?



For that matter, you know who are more intelligent than dolphins? Humans. Can humans be Archdemons? The answer is either no, or the darkspawn are very, very stupid to not make humans Archdemons and hey presto, infinite Blight!

[marshalleck]

Really, you think a dolphin could lead an army to war?

Okay, I can see there is no further point discussing this with Curlain.

It's like I said earlier. At some point you have to accept the lore for what it is or the entire story will collapse in on its foundations.

Modifié par marshalleck, 09 décembre 2009 - 05:25 .

[Original182]

Curlain wrote...
So again, it could be a Old God, but it could be a High Dragon (with
the intellgence of a dolphin and prehaps more, particulary if boosted
by the hive mind). Persoally I think it could well be a 'Old God', but
there not more tangible evidence for it then the Maker (ie the Ashes
which can be accepted or explained away as well.

Except there is a lot of evidence that indicates Old Gods do exist, and the archdemon has the soul of an old god, which Morrigan wants to capture. If it was just "power" that Morrigan wants to capture, she'll just say power.

In a game world where Old Gods can exist, surely the Maker can exist as well. Both cannot be sensed with the human senses. Both rely on people's accounts of it to exist, or faith as you call it. Just because more different people say something exist, doesn't make it more possible to exist.

So I agree with the comments that it is hypocritical for Morrigan to believe in the Old Gods, but not the Maker. But I commend you for having an open mind that both an Old God and the Maker MAY exist, and not indulge in selective thinking.

Modifié par Original182, 09 décembre 2009 - 05:30 .

[Curlain]

Why not,the darkspawn don't use great strategy, and dolphins are actually pretty intelligent (we actually have no idea yet the extent of dolphin intellegence).

2ndly, dragons could be more intelligent then previously thought, (it is left out there as a suggestion in the codex), and the hivemind itself could have a effect on it.

Finally, I don't necessarly think that the Archdemon is a High Dragon (I hope it's an Old God, and think it is) but nothing proves the Archdemon is an Old God and not a Dragon, there is no tagible proof, just what previous generations have believed (I think storywise this will turn out to be true, but nothing really proves the Archdemon = Old God definitely a the moment)

Modifié par Curlain, 09 décembre 2009 - 05:28 .

[The Angry One]

Dolphins are somewhat intelligent, yes. So are dogs.

The idea that dolphins have some nebulous grand intelligence unknown to us was disproven years ago.

Or to say it in the simplest terms, we smashed the atom and launched ourselves into space. Dolphins haven't invented the wheel. We're more intelligent.



Again, what proves the Archdemon's power is that when it's tainted it can do what NO OTHER BEING can do, control the entire darkspawn horde. Even the most powerful Hurlock Alpha can only put a small warband together.

[marshalleck]

This kind of skepticism is useful when you're constructing and deconstructing philosophical systems, not so much when you're discussing video game lore.

[Boss Fog]

I smell a future DLC where you have Morrigan as the antagonist and she's got her "old god" child at her side and you have to put them both down.

Modifié par TelvanniWarlord, 09 décembre 2009 - 05:30 .