61 réponses à ce sujet

[Asante81]

Well, Oghren has an interesting theory about the nature of the power of the ashes if you take him along. And ask Flemeth about techniques of enhancing your natural lifespan. She might tell you you don't need a Maker for something like that. Or you ask Zathrian...

Just because that guardian told you it was the Maker doesn't mean it really was.

[Recidiva]

Hrodberht wrote...

Well, *something* gave power to the sacred ashes.  And something gave power to the oath the Guardian made such that he lives as long as he needs to to fulfill it.

And that thing could be magic.  Lyrium.  There are ghosts and spirits in the game as well as demons.  The existence of magic and spirits could account for that.

The Guardian goes through the magical ritual that basically is a mystical suicide, where they pledge to serve Andraste ever more.  That's just crazy magic talking, nothing divine.  That temple is a deathtrap.  And the Maker of legend sounds entirely petty and cruel.

Even if there is a Maker, and the Chantry's version is true, that's a very weak and un-loving God, to allow so much suffering and to allow his Bride to be burned at the stake so he could have her finally.

I prefer humans to that sort of divine stupidity.  But that's my preference.  I can understand humans being horrible.  I can't really get on board with a Maker of divine ability being that petty.  Sounds like an entirely human construct.

[barrelofmonkeyzz]

It's stated that the Archdemon soul can jump from one tainted host to another. So it's possible that the soul was taken from somewhere else, twisted and tainted, then forced into the body of a blighted thrall dragon.



If that's the case, then what ever is masterminding the Darkspawn purpose is directing the horde to find souls strong enough to affect the physical world. The easiest and strongest targets would be the ancient Arlathians undergoing Uthenera (Codex 96). I'm sure a couple hundred of them were still alive and hibernating underground when Arlathan (the city) was driven deep into the earth. Plus, if you consider the parallels between the Dalish stories of the ancient Elvhenan teaching humans magic and the "Old Gods" of Tevinter teaching the magisters magic, the old Tevinter gods were probably Arlathian shifters.

[CarlSpackler]

barrelofmonkeyzz wrote...

It's stated that the Archdemon soul can jump from one tainted host to another. So it's possible that the soul was taken from somewhere else, twisted and tainted, then forced into the body of a blighted thrall dragon.

If that's the case, then what ever is masterminding the Darkspawn purpose is directing the horde to find souls strong enough to affect the physical world. The easiest and strongest targets would be the ancient Arlathians undergoing Uthenera (Codex 96). I'm sure a couple hundred of them were still alive and hibernating underground when Arlathan (the city) was driven deep into the earth. Plus, if you consider the parallels between the Dalish stories of the ancient Elvhenan teaching humans magic and the "Old Gods" of Tevinter teaching the magisters magic, the old Tevinter gods were probably Arlathian shifters.

Yeah, I realize that topics of this sort could be getting to close to the heart of the DA mythos.  I know the writers have said they wanted religion to resemble religion in our world.  In terms of being neither undeniable upon pain of irrationality or completly falsifiable.  So I guess its unlikely we're going to get some kind of answer here.  Of course the existence of the darkspawn, the taint, the corruption, etc... It seems to me there is probably some truth in what the chantry says.  Not in terms of all of its details neccessarily, but in terms of the black city being visible in the fade, it seems likely to me there was some kind of corruption of early mages.  That doesn't necissitate Andraste's claims being valid, or all the details of the maker being accurate but I would be surprised if when Gaider et al decide to tell us that story the truth would be completly unrecogizeable from the chantry edition.  Of course could be they will never tell that story, or let us behind the veil so to speak.  I suppose it makes for wonderful speculation.

Still I would love to know more about the details of the ritual morrigan proposes.  Perhaps in a future release we'll be able to get our hands back on Flemeth's grimoire and learn for ourselves, or something along those lines.

[Curlain]

barrelofmonkeyzz wrote...

It's stated that the Archdemon soul can jump from one tainted host to another. So it's possible that the soul was taken from somewhere else, twisted and tainted, then forced into the body of a blighted thrall dragon.

If that's the case, then what ever is masterminding the Darkspawn purpose is directing the horde to find souls strong enough to affect the physical world. The easiest and strongest targets would be the ancient Arlathians undergoing Uthenera (Codex 96). I'm sure a couple hundred of them were still alive and hibernating underground when Arlathan (the city) was driven deep into the earth. Plus, if you consider the parallels between the Dalish stories of the ancient Elvhenan teaching humans magic and the "Old Gods" of Tevinter teaching the magisters magic, the old Tevinter gods were probably Arlathian shifters.

This is a really interesting idea, and it would certainly put a spin on the 'Old God' concept, prehaps the fact that it could be the soul of an ancient Arlathian mage/shifter (or some other order of mages with shifting magic similar but more powerful to Flemeth) could also be why Flemeth is so interested in gaining it's soul, for it's knowlege.  Might make a great difference if it has any part in any futuer story.  Anyhow, nice idea, I like it

[barrelofmonkeyzz]

As for how Flemeth and Morrigan fit into the Big Picture...

Flemeth knows who or what the Real Enemy is, either because she's a former Archdemon or she was somehow involved with the fall of Arlathan/the Golden City. She doesn't agree with the Enemy's remodeling plans for Thedas, but she isn't "pure" enough or strong enough to destroy the current denizens of the Black City by herself (similar to Caridin's dilemma of not being able to destroy the Anvil). I'm guessing she's still partially tainted like the Grey Wardens and jumps to a new body every 30 or so years to dillute the corruption and keep herself hidden from the Enemy.

Enter the Dragon age... around 9:10 Dragon, Flemeth senses the creation of the new Archdemon (Codex 146), but this time, she thinks she can recover the soul whole and untainted. She acquires an infant with the right qualities and potential to fulfill her plans. Morrigan is raised in the Wilds and taught to believe that it is her Destiny and Duty to perform this act. That belief is pretty much beaten into her any time she tries to just be a normal kid, or voices any doubt. So 9:30 Dragon, after 17 to 20 years of indoctrination, we get a socially stunted Morrigan thrown at the PC after the battle of Ostagar.

I find it ironic that Morrigan's character is more firmly attached to her duty than Allistair is to his, and that she is a bigger fanatic than Leliana in believing that Flemeth's ritual is worth any personal sacrifice or discomfort.

If you agree to let Morrigan have the child, as soon as the transfer is complete, she needs to run and hide, especially from the Grey Warden father. Over time, the Grey Warden taint becomes stronger and, I suspect, it allows the Enemy to know what the Grey Warden knows. Once the Enemy realizes that there's an awakened untainted Arlathian soul out there it will go into a frenzy to hunt it down.

[Damonicas]

The Angry One wrote...

Dolphins are somewhat intelligent, yes. So are dogs.
The idea that dolphins have some nebulous grand intelligence unknown to us was disproven years ago.
Or to say it in the simplest terms, we smashed the atom and launched ourselves into space. Dolphins haven't invented the wheel. We're more intelligent.

Again, what proves the Archdemon's power is that when it's tainted it can do what NO OTHER BEING can do, control the entire darkspawn horde. Even the most powerful Hurlock Alpha can only put a small warband together.

Dolphin's live in a family based community and rarely turn on each other. We have politics based on power, religion based on indoctronation  and emotion's based on chemicals in our bodies. For  these reasons we are prepare to kill and take advantage of our fellow race. HMMM, we may be more technical don't know about more intelligent.
Maybe the darkspawn see the archdemon as a son of a god and have launched a holy crusade / jihad in it's name. And the Grey Wardens are the Athiest's that will just do whatever they have to to ensure survival.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Original182 wrote...
If any dragon would do, Morrigan would just capture the High Dragon worshipped by the Andraste Cult, and not go through all the trouble of getting the archdemon.

But that dragon is untainted. What happens with the soul of an untainted dragon?

Could be the taint is the key. Could be that the ritual uses the taint to draw the soul. So no. Still no conclusive evidence.

[Lotion Soronarr]

marshalleck wrote...

Really, you think a dolphin could lead an army to war?

Okay, I can see there is no further point discussing this with Curlain.

It's like I said earlier. At some point you have to accept the lore for what it is or the entire story will collapse in on its foundations.

Interesting how you only accept lore WHEN IT SUITS YOU.

Or to say it in the simplest terms, we smashed the atom and launched ourselves into space. Dolphins haven't invented the wheel. We're more intelligent.

You're confusing inventivness with intelligence.
Even if they did know how to build a particle accelerator, dolphins couldn't. No arms.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 10 décembre 2009 - 08:20 .

[Original182]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Original182 wrote...
If any dragon would do, Morrigan would just capture the High Dragon worshipped by the Andraste Cult, and not go through all the trouble of getting the archdemon.

But that dragon is untainted. What happens with the soul of an untainted dragon?

Could be the taint is the key. Could be that the ritual uses the taint to draw the soul. So no. Still no conclusive evidence.

Problem is that NOTHING can stand up to the "require 100% tangible proof that you can touch". Anything can be explained away as something else.

The general consensus is that the archdemon has the soul of an old god. Almost everyone privy to them use that term, grey wardens, morrigan, etc. There is no other source in the game that says otherwise.

I'll give you another example. It is said that if the soul of an old god merges with a living soul, both souls will be destroyed. How do the grey wardens know that? Can they see or sense a soul being destroyed? Because we have no "tangible proof", therefore souls do not exist and grey wardens have been brainwashed by the chantry to say that blah blah blah. And anyone who argues with me is a moron. This is where people are not dabbling in healthy skepticism, but paranoid cynicism.

So we just have to accept that if the game tells us the archdemon has the soul of an old god, we'll just take their word for it.

[Original182]

Recidiva wrote...
And that thing could be magic.  Lyrium.  There are ghosts and spirits in the game as well as demons.  The existence of magic and spirits could account for that.

The Guardian goes through the magical ritual that basically is a mystical suicide, where they pledge to serve Andraste ever more.  That's just crazy magic talking, nothing divine.  That temple is a deathtrap.  And the Maker of legend sounds entirely petty and cruel.

That theory could be dismissed with an entry in the Codex.

When he understood that Maferath was giving Andraste over to be
executed, Havvard, unwilling to draw swords against his friend and
liege, placed himself between Andraste and the Tiventer soldiers. The
Tiventers struck him down, and Maferath left him for dead.

But Aegis was not so easily destroyed. Havvard lived and Made
his way, gravely wounded, to the gates of Minrathous to stop the
execution. Too late. He found only the ashes of the prophet, left to
the wind and rain. When his fingers touched the ash, his ears filled
with song, and he saw a vision of Andraste dressed in cloth of
starlight. She knelt at his side, saying, "Rise, Ageis of the Faith, the Maker shall never forget you so long as I remember."

His wounds healed instantly. And with new strength, Havvard gathered up
Andraste's remains and carried them safely back to the lands of the
Alamarri.


http://dragonage.wik...avard.27s_Aegis

Aegis was healed before the ashes were even in the temple. So it doesn't require anything from the temple.

But I suppose people will argue now that the ashes were touched by magically-lyrium-imbued wind and rain, residue of excessive magic from the magocracy in Telvinter. Oh and it's entirely made up by the Chantry too.

Modifié par Original182, 10 décembre 2009 - 09:02 .

[Alex Savchovsky]

Since it's a legend... yea, it could very well be made up by the Chantry.