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[Darth_Trethon]

The Angry One wrote...

Darth_Trethon wrote...

Anora is a great Queen.....perhaps the best Queen in Ferelden's history IMO. Why would anyone EVER want to remove her from power? Do I want to be fully king and not just King Consort? Yes I do but NOT if it means Anora has to be removed from power. She HAS to be Queen and Ferelden is just about doomed.

And this fantasy is based on..

There is no other remotely competent ruler....even the PC has no experience dealing with politics beyond going to war and that's the last thing ferelden needs when trying to recover from the blight. There are sure to be trouble both inside and from the outside......wouldn't be surprised to see orlais try to make a move either. I'd rather have Anora resole these issues diplomatically if possible and if she can't then nobody can. Ferelden is in desperate need of both a strong and tactfull leader to see the country through its recovery. Lest it fall into helpless civil war or prey to outside invasion. I simply don't see Eamon or any of the other nobles stand for a power hungry fool that would murder his/her way to the throne.....even if they technically accept such a thing I dobt they'll be cooperating a whole lot. That will force the player to either be a powerless figure with a meaningless title or a tyrant constantly fighting and suppressing everyone.

[Asante81]

Hmmm TAO... do you know what? I'll leave the talking to you again, but know, you'll have my mental support

I'm not that good in it. Not in english (not my first language) And I'm bad with argumentations anyway... *shrugs*

[Asante81]

Darth_Trethon wrote...

even the PC has no experience dealing with politics beyond going to war and that's the last thing ferelden needs when trying to recover from the blight.

Did you forget you're a born Cousland with that ending? They're the second important family and Teyrns for some... what centuries? Do you seriously think their education of their children would be any worse than Anora's who's a first-gen noble? I'm rather sure my Cousland PC will be as great a king/queen as any Theirin one, just because they're used to rule. The difference between a teyrnir and Ferelden can't be that big. Besides, as a female Cousland my PC will most likely be raised to be a potential future queen. Nobles do things like that... just for hoping to marry them off as good as possible.

[The Angry One]

Darth_Trethon wrote...

There is no other remotely competent ruler....even the PC has no experience dealing with politics beyond going to war and that's the last thing ferelden needs when trying to recover from the blight. There are sure to be trouble both inside and from the outside......wouldn't be surprised to see orlais try to make a move either. I'd rather have Anora resole these issues diplomatically if possible and if she can't then nobody can. Ferelden is in desperate need of both a strong and tactfull leader to see the country through its recovery. Lest it fall into helpless civil war or prey to outside invasion. I simply don't see Eamon or any of the other nobles stand for a power hungry fool that would murder his/her way to the throne.....even if they technically accept such a thing I dobt they'll be cooperating a whole lot. That will force the player to either be a powerless figure with a meaningless title or a tyrant constantly fighting and suppressing everyone.

How is Anora a compitent ruler? She let a criminal claim the Regency and rule over her head.
Any arguments to her compitence are immediately rendered invalid by this.

As a human noble, the PC would have been educated about the politics of Ferelden so this is no excuse either.

[The Angry One]

Asante81 wrote...

Hmmm TAO... do you know what? I'll leave the talking to you again, but know, you'll have my mental support
I'm not that good in it. Not in english (not my first language) And I'm bad with argumentations anyway... *shrugs*

No no no you're doing fine on your own, by all means the more voices against Anora, the better. :happy:

[Darth_Trethon]

The Angry One wrote...

Darth_Trethon wrote...

There is no other remotely competent ruler....even the PC has no experience dealing with politics beyond going to war and that's the last thing ferelden needs when trying to recover from the blight. There are sure to be trouble both inside and from the outside......wouldn't be surprised to see orlais try to make a move either. I'd rather have Anora resole these issues diplomatically if possible and if she can't then nobody can. Ferelden is in desperate need of both a strong and tactfull leader to see the country through its recovery. Lest it fall into helpless civil war or prey to outside invasion. I simply don't see Eamon or any of the other nobles stand for a power hungry fool that would murder his/her way to the throne.....even if they technically accept such a thing I dobt they'll be cooperating a whole lot. That will force the player to either be a powerless figure with a meaningless title or a tyrant constantly fighting and suppressing everyone.

How is Anora a compitent ruler? She let a criminal claim the Regency and rule over her head.
Any arguments to her compitence are immediately rendered invalid by this.

As a human noble, the PC would have been educated about the politics of Ferelden so this is no excuse either.

She had no means to resist and when she could she acted against him. All the royal troops and the army were gone.....what was she going to do? Fight loghain's troops bare handed? She is NOT responsible for anything that happened from the moment Loghain took power to the moment he lost the landsmeet.

[Asante81]

Calling a landsmeet and opposing Loghain, telling the Banns the truth about her father?

[tmp7704]

The Angry One wrote...

You do realise that hero rule also applies to Anora, yes? And yet despite all her mistakes, she's supposed to remain the beloved Queen? Balony on rye-bread.

Anora has apparently at least five years of accumulated goodwill from her previous ruling. Your own character is fresh on the scene and (in most origins) a nobody at best and suspicious second class individual at worst. So yes, the same rules apply.

And you know what? I'm sick of people, devs included, bringing up the treaties.
I will say this now. The treaties are garbage. All they do is point you in the general direction of groups that can help you.
In not one SINGLE case do the treaties automatically gain you any help.

Oh but they do. Good luck proving your credentials to anyone without them? In at least two-three cases out of four (Redcliffe is debatable and maybe the faction related to your origin to some extent) you wouldn't even learn about the problems that need to be solved if it wasn't for your Grey Warden multipass. Much less be allowed to have a stab at solving them.

[The Angry One]

Darth_Trethon wrote...

She had no means to resist and when she could she acted against him. All the royal troops and the army were gone.....what was she going to do? Fight loghain's troops bare handed? She is NOT responsible for anything that happened from the moment Loghain took power to the moment he lost the landsmeet.

She had no royal guards left? No political connections? No way to publicly denounce Loghain's illegal regency and formally request the help of the Bannorn?
Then what kind of competent ruler is she, that her position can be so easily usurped by a tyrant?

And I'll remind you that when she felt her personal position of power and wealth threatened by Howe, she quite easily escaped to Redcliffe to give you a sob story.

[Asante81]

All right, let's talk about those five years of "ruling"... Does anyone remember there being any critical situations where she had to make any important decision? All she did was governing the country during times of peace. Great accomplishment. It's not difficult to become a beloved queen when all you have to do is wear pretty dresses, wave at some commoners, do some tax-math and try to make as many banns happy as possible with... what... feasts?

[The Angry One]

tmp7704 wrote...

Anora has apparently at least five years of accumulated goodwill from her previous ruling. Your own character is fresh on the scene and (in most origins) a nobody at best and suspicious second class individual at worst. So yes, the same rules apply.

Loghain has far more than that, and his goodwill was erased by his despicable deeds.
Something to which Anora is immune.

Oh but they do. Good luck proving your credentials to anyone without them? In at least two-three cases out of four (Redcliffe is debatable and maybe the faction related to your origin to some extent) you wouldn't even learn about the problems that need to be solved if it wasn't for your Grey Warden multipass. Much less be allowed to have a stab at solving them.

Nonsense. In the Dalish camp you simply say you are a Warden. In the Magi tower Greagor is desperate for any decent help. The only case where the treaties might be significant is letting you into Orzammar, but again that might be possible by just saying you're a warden.
The point is, the treaties are a gateway, a means to get you going. They have little importance beyond that, as every single faction you gain the support of owes you for your help.

Modifié par The Angry One, 09 décembre 2009 - 09:05 .

[The Angry One]

Asante81 wrote...

All right, let's talk about those five years of "ruling"... Does anyone remember there being any critical situations where she had to make any important decision? All she did was governing the country during times of peace. Great accomplishment. It's not difficult to become a beloved queen when all you have to do is wear pretty dresses, wave at some commoners, do some tax-math and try to make as many banns happy as possible with... what... feasts?

To say nothing of the continued rampant abuse in the elven Alienages that occured under her "benevolent rule".
It was so bad that Cailan was deliberately kept ignorant of the conditions.

[Darth_Trethon]

Asante81 wrote...

Darth_Trethon wrote...

even the PC has no experience dealing with politics beyond going to war and that's the last thing ferelden needs when trying to recover from the blight.

Did you forget you're a born Cousland with that ending? They're the second important family and Teyrns for some... what centuries? Do you seriously think their education of their children would be any worse than Anora's who's a first-gen noble? I'm rather sure my Cousland PC will be as great a king/queen as any Theirin one, just because they're used to rule. The difference between a teyrnir and Ferelden can't be that big. Besides, as a female Cousland my PC will most likely be raised to be a potential future queen. Nobles do things like that... just for hoping to marry them off as good as possible.

But he/she has never actually dealt with politics and certainly has yet to earn respect in that area. Anora is respected both by Ferelden and by the other countries....removing someone as capable and competent from power in the middle of crysis is foolish at best. I think Morrigan or Flemeth said only a fool wants to rule a hut as it burns down around them. Either way taking power in any negative way is bound to stir negative feelings, incooperation and even rebellion in the nobility.

[Asante81]

The Angry One wrote...

Asante81 wrote...

All right, let's talk about those five years of "ruling"... Does anyone remember there being any critical situations where she had to make any important decision? All she did was governing the country during times of peace. Great accomplishment. It's not difficult to become a beloved queen when all you have to do is wear pretty dresses, wave at some commoners, do some tax-math and try to make as many banns happy as possible with... what... feasts?

To say nothing of the continued rampant abuse in the elven Alienages that occured under her "benevolent rule".
It was so bad that Cailan was deliberately kept ignorant of the conditions.

Oh yes.. I completely forgot about Cailan going "Oh... what? I have to look into this once I'm home!" After I explained him we got raped and I killed the arl of denerim's son for frequent abusing of elves...

[The Angry One]

Darth_Trethon wrote...

But he/she has never actually dealt with politics and certainly has yet to earn respect in that area. Anora is respected both by Ferelden and by the other countries....

Respected by who? Oh right, the Empress of Orlais.
Irony alert.

removing someone as capable and competent from power in the middle of crysis is foolish at best. I think Morrigan or Flemeth said only a fool wants to rule a hut as it burns down around them. Either way taking power in any negative way is bound to stir negative feelings, incooperation and even rebellion in the nobility.

That was Ser Bryant if I recall correctly.
And is that not exactly what Anora is doing? For heaven's sake, as the Blight creeps towards Denerim, Anora is busy trying to get the only two people who can stop it KILLED for the sake of her own power!
Delicious irony again..

[Darth_Trethon]

The Angry One wrote...

Darth_Trethon wrote...

She had no means to resist and when she could she acted against him. All the royal troops and the army were gone.....what was she going to do? Fight loghain's troops bare handed? She is NOT responsible for anything that happened from the moment Loghain took power to the moment he lost the landsmeet.

She had no royal guards left? No political connections? No way to publicly denounce Loghain's illegal regency and formally request the help of the Bannorn?
Then what kind of competent ruler is she, that her position can be so easily usurped by a tyrant?

And I'll remind you that when she felt her personal position of power and wealth threatened by Howe, she quite easily escaped to Redcliffe to give you a sob story.

Political connections are useless without troops and Loghain's reputation is far too great as the Hero of River Dane for any noble to go against him alone without the full KNOWLEDGE that other noble houses will rise agains him too. Communication in the middle of a blight and bandit filled roads is strained at best. THAT is what the landsmeet was for. Then Loghain kept her locked away or do you forget she was kept out of the public eye. Do you think he wouldn't watch her every action to see if she tried something? 

There is NO way that you can pin what Loghain did on her. Endof story.

[gotthammer]

I too would like to have had the option to kill Anora. IMHO, she had to have been aware of the wrongs committed by her father (if not, then she definitely doesn't deserve to be queen).



Then again, I'd also like to burn down both the Circle (would've been nice if you could 'cook' the tower, and wipe out both Mages and Templars...) and the Chantry (and replace it with a religion of my own...maybe something to w/ the Old Gods. Hey, wait a sec, isn't there an NPC supposedly pregnant with an Old God...hmmm).

[Asante81]

Darth_Trethon wrote...

Asante81 wrote...

Darth_Trethon wrote...

even the PC has no experience dealing with politics beyond going to war and that's the last thing ferelden needs when trying to recover from the blight.

Did you forget you're a born Cousland with that ending? They're the second important family and Teyrns for some... what centuries? Do you seriously think their education of their children would be any worse than Anora's who's a first-gen noble? I'm rather sure my Cousland PC will be as great a king/queen as any Theirin one, just because they're used to rule. The difference between a teyrnir and Ferelden can't be that big. Besides, as a female Cousland my PC will most likely be raised to be a potential future queen. Nobles do things like that... just for hoping to marry them off as good as possible.

But he/she has never actually dealt with politics and certainly has yet to earn respect in that area. Anora is respected both by Ferelden and by the other countries....removing someone as capable and competent from power in the middle of crysis is foolish at best. I think Morrigan or Flemeth said only a fool wants to rule a hut as it burns down around them. Either way taking power in any negative way is bound to stir negative feelings, incooperation and even rebellion in the nobility.

Ok... why is ruling a Teyrnir no politics? I'd say having to deal with banns and arls constantly trying to whack each other's head isn't that much less politics than ruling the country. Just slightly bigger.
And who says anything about "other countries"? As far as other countries are involved Anora is the queen consort, the happy smiling pretty dress wearing and waving wife of the king. And her letting the crisis get that bad still isn't a "plus" on her "little Anora plays queen" card.
And it seems you're not really reading our "Anora isn't as competent as Anora makes it sound" arguments.

[The Angry One]

Darth_Trethon wrote...

Political connections are useless without troops and Loghain's reputation is far too great as the Hero of River Dane for any noble to go against him alone without the full KNOWLEDGE that other noble houses will rise agains him too.

Nonsense. The Bannorn were already outraged by his claiming of the Regency. Anora denouncing him would've torpedoed any remaining support he had.

Communication in the middle of a blight and bandit filled roads is strained at best. THAT is what the landsmeet was for. Then Loghain kept her locked away or do you forget she was kept out of the public eye. Do you think he wouldn't watch her every action to see if she tried something?

And what the hell do you think the meeting where Teagan denounced Loghain in was? That was a Landsmeet. With the entire Bannorn present, and Anora too.
Don't tell me that Anora couldn't have slipped away and contacted Teagan and the other nobles to let them know Loghain did NOT have the support of the throne in his illegal claim.

There is NO way that you can pin what Loghain did on her. Endof story.

Either she let it happen, or she was too incompetent to stop it.
Pick one.

[Darth_Trethon]

The Angry One wrote...

Darth_Trethon wrote...

But he/she has never actually dealt with politics and certainly has yet to earn respect in that area. Anora is respected both by Ferelden and by the other countries....

Respected by who? Oh right, the Empress of Orlais.
Irony alert.

removing someone as capable and competent from power in the middle of crysis is foolish at best. I think Morrigan or Flemeth said only a fool wants to rule a hut as it burns down around them. Either way taking power in any negative way is bound to stir negative feelings, incooperation and even rebellion in the nobility.

That was Ser Bryant if I recall correctly.
And is that not exactly what Anora is doing? For heaven's sake, as the Blight creeps towards Denerim, Anora is busy trying to get the only two people who can stop it KILLED for the sake of her own power!
Delicious irony again..

Respected by multiple foreigh nations(from the in-game codex about her:

She is held in much higher esteem than her husband by the people of
Ferelden, nobility and commoners alike, and commands the respect even
of foreign nations, having once inspired Empress Celene I of Orlais to declare, "Anora of Ferelden is a solitary rose among brambles."


And Anora is NOT trying to kill ayone untill the landsmeet and only calls for an execution out of necessity to preserve peace and stability. She is NOT responsible for Loghain's actions stop trying to shift the blame. What Loghain did only falls on him and him alone.

[Asante81]

Darth_Trethon wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Darth_Trethon wrote...

She had no means to resist and when she could she acted against him. All the royal troops and the army were gone.....what was she going to do? Fight loghain's troops bare handed? She is NOT responsible for anything that happened from the moment Loghain took power to the moment he lost the landsmeet.

She had no royal guards left? No political connections? No way to publicly denounce Loghain's illegal regency and formally request the help of the Bannorn?
Then what kind of competent ruler is she, that her position can be so easily usurped by a tyrant?

And I'll remind you that when she felt her personal position of power and wealth threatened by Howe, she quite easily escaped to Redcliffe to give you a sob story.

Political connections are useless without troops and Loghain's reputation is far too great as the Hero of River Dane for any noble to go against him alone without the full KNOWLEDGE that other noble houses will rise agains him too. Communication in the middle of a blight and bandit filled roads is strained at best. THAT is what the landsmeet was for. Then Loghain kept her locked away or do you forget she was kept out of the public eye. Do you think he wouldn't watch her every action to see if she tried something? 

There is NO way that you can pin what Loghain did on her. Endof story.

Eek... you forgot the civil war, didn't you? Exactly THAT is one of the larger puzzle pieces of the problems. Banns and Arls realising that Loghain is not what Loghain wants everyone to think of Loghain. She would have had support. Oh yes, she would. Especially as Loghains beloved little daughter. They would have believed her. And without the support of the Bannorn, Loghain would have been nothing but the Hero of River Dane without any talent for making the right decisions besides kicking out the Orlesians...

[The Angry One]

Darth_Trethon wrote...

She is held in much higher esteem than her husband by the people of
Ferelden, nobility and commoners alike, and commands the respect even
of foreign nations, having once inspired Empress Celene I of Orlais to declare, "Anora of Ferelden is a solitary rose among brambles."

It says foreign nations. But only cites Orlais. And the praise of a tyrannical regime that once brutalised Ferelden and maintains a class that is allowed to enslave and rape commoners at will is hardly a glowing reference. My point stands.

And Anora is NOT trying to kill ayone untill the landsmeet and only calls for an execution out of necessity to preserve peace and stability. She is NOT responsible for Loghain's actions stop trying to shift the blame. What Loghain did only falls on him and him alone.

Um, she tries to GET YOU ARRESTED and possibly KILLED, continually backstabs and lies about you and attempts to have you executed DURING THE BLIGHT. She is clearly guilty of what you yourself cited as a foolish way to rule.

[Darth_Trethon]

Asante81 wrote...

Ok... why is ruling a Teyrnir no politics? I'd say having to deal with banns and arls constantly trying to whack each other's head isn't that much less politics than ruling the country. Just slightly bigger.
And who says anything about "other countries"? As far as other countries are involved Anora is the queen consort, the happy smiling pretty dress wearing and waving wife of the king. And her letting the crisis get that bad still isn't a "plus" on her "little Anora plays queen" card.
And it seems you're not really reading our "Anora isn't as competent as Anora makes it sound" arguments.

The PC didn't rule a teyrninr....his parents did...when he was first to actually be in charge the world came crashing down on him/her in about 5 minutes. And Anora did NOT let the crysis get anything....she did all she could and acted as soon as she could. She was a prisoner likely to be executed by Howe....nobody besides the PC could fight Loghain and Howe and give her the ability to speak out and do something.

[Asante81]

Ehm that that quote from the codex doesn't say she was respected for her great ruling. It says she was respected. You can be respected for a lot of things... like choice of clothing, hairstyles, make-up, friendliness... whatever. Think about it. For all other nations, she's nothing but the queen consort.

[tmp7704]

The Angry One wrote...

Loghain has far more than that, and his goodwill was erased by his despicable deeds.
Something to which Anora is immune.

I'm fairly sure as soon as she stabs her King in the back and wipes out most of the military of her country in a staged coup people will be all in arms about it. They may even execute her if she fails to win the Landsmeet debate, an all-out fight afterwards and a honorable duel to follow.

Nonsense. In the Dalish camp you simply say you are a Warden. In the Magi tower Greagor is desperate for any decent help.

I'm rather glad they skipped all the paperwork in the Dalish camp for the game flow sake, but you don't realistically expect these elves would leave you with anything but arrow up your rear end if you just claimed you're a Grey Warden without anything to back it up, do you? I mean, as the nice templar at the docks puts it, "and i'm actually the Queen of Antiva".

The templars at the Circle might be desperate for decent help but here we run into snag again. How exactly do you prove you are the "decent help"? Sure, they'll just let anyone who asks and claims they want to help into tower overran with abominations and blood mages; what could possibly go wrong.
 

The point is, the treaties are a gateway, a means to get you going. They have little importance beyond that, as every single faction you gain the support of owes you for your help.

I think the counter-point is even with the treaties out of picture while the help you eventually provide is appreciated, it's quite unrealistic to expect entire factions to support you forever because of that. Basically you do them a favour, they do you a favour in return and that's it, you're even.