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[The Angry One]

Taleroth wrote...

And let's not forget Arl Eamon's attempt to put Alistair on the throne.  Really?  The guy who's spent the past 2 years abdicating every single decision that passed by to a junior member.  Guy can't even go to see his sister without someone holding his hand.

Alistair's more compitent than he's given credit for. And this junior member thing is exageratted, Alistair's your senior by what, 6 months? That's nothing. Alistair recognizes your ability to lead and goes with it.
Rather than being a coward, I see it as someone who sees his own limitations and knows when to step down for the greater good.

A quality that Anora wholely lacks.

[tmp7704]

The Angry One wrote...

How dense are you? You would've been educated either way because you're the child of a Teryn, the castle has it's own full-time teacher (that sage guy).
And by the way, Teyrna Eleanor is still there. If you were really so unqualified, she would rule. Instead, Bryce specifically asks her to leave so as to not undermine you.

I believe you are educated to some extent or at least there's been attempts to educate you, being you're the child of a noble and all. But the point was there's nothing in the game that'd indicate the actual level of your education at that time, or that you're already fully prepared to govern anything bigger than your own wardog or near-empty castle. (and even the wardog does as he pleases for the most part)

[Darth_Trethon]

Asante81 wrote...

Darth_Trethon wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Darth_Trethon wrote...

He's also left with very few troops in an area assumed to be under no threat and if the the blight got there they understood the teyrnir stood no chance at all. So he was left in charge of nothing but domestic duties.....make sure to tell the servants to take out the trash dear.....yeah that sounds like kingly experience.

Yes, clearly the administration of a noble house, the city of Highever, it's surrounding lands and the various Arlings and Banns is child's play. <_<

They were ALL gone to war.....only the servants and a couple of people were left at best. They were assumed under no threat. He was left in charge of an empty area. And most deffinitely NOT to be compared with running a coutry. The PC has nowhere near enough experience to be on the throne while Anora ran the country just about single handedly for years. She is accepted while you would receive suspicion and incooperation at best if you forced your way to power.

Eh... have you ever played that ending? Have you? My ending of Alistair marrying my Cousland PC said something about being loved by everyone, no problems besides roving bands of darkspawn whatsoever... blabla... They didn't receive any suspicion and incooperation AT ALL. Even the landsmeet was on my side with only two voices for Loghain... 

And I say it again: ANORA WAS RULING A COUNTRY AT TIMES OF PEACE. That's not much more difficult than ruling an empty Teyrnir. Because for all the tiring things you have people. Kings and queens are only really important at certain times where not everything goes it's way as it is supposed to be. And at THAT time, she failed.

That's because he didn't rule and you didn't and while blissfully oblivious to who wielded power they did a good job at not drawing attention to themselves. Does that make him a good leader. No it doesn't. He was loved by the uneducated commoners for visiting them but being able to talk and have a drink with someone doesn't make them a good leader.

Besides Anora KEPT the peace by gaining the respect and cooperation of those who were very likely to cause trouble....like Orlais. She is needed to keep the peace as ferelden recovers too.

[Asante81]

Not having any self-esteem after being treated like a dog for your whole life doesn't necessarily mean you're a bad king. Cailan was treated like a king all of his life and was a childish fool. There's a lot more in Alistair than most people realise. And yes, I DO sound like a female PC dating him now, because it is true. For example his decision to quit his relationship with the PC if she's not a noble and you didn't harden him is a very kingly decision. He did it, even if it was the thing on earth that hurt HIMSELF most. For what reason? For KINGLY reasons (is that even a proper word?). I hated that conversation from him from the "Oh he is so cute" point of view, but at the same time it made me (yes, me, the player) proud that I had been right. Proud that Alistair is not the whiney boy he always pretends to be because it is his mechanism of self-protection. All Alistair needed was someone believing in him doing the right thing. And there you go, he CAN do it!

What did Anora do at the same time? She was predestined to be queen at Cailans side. And maybe did decent for a while at times of peace. But what kind of queen is she going to be if she isn't bold enough to oppose her tyrant father who killed her husband and claimed power without even asking her? And don't tell me she couldn't have done anything. She could have joined all those banns who decided to oppose his father and strengthen their opposition. But from her point of view this was too risky. Too risky to loose everything. And then, as that Grey Warden comes along who united humans, dwarves, elves and mages to an army she sees that her chances are rising. Only THEN with the support of the person who can SAFELY crush her father, she decides to do so. This is, what makes her selfish. For her it only matters who will win in the end: she.



Alistair as king does decisions that are against his personal will. Which makes him a better king than Anora.

[The Angry One]

Darth_Trethon wrote...

Now you have nothing but denial and going back to pinning Loghain's actions on her. Denial doesn't change facts. She did NOT fail at anything untill she was imprisoned after a military coup....that's not her fault regardless of how many ways you twist it. She only had one incident with the elves but nothing signifficat to threaten the peace and stability. No rule is ever flawless but she certainly has nothing that can question her competence nor any failure.....as you keep trying to pin others' actions on her'.

Will you listen to yourself? Pin others actions on her? SHE'S THE BLEEDING QUEEN.
She has executive responsibility for the actions of those under her and a duty to stop actions that harm the nation she rules.
And one incident with the elves? The entire condition of the Alienages grew more and more appalling under her.

Now unless you have something better that this silly argument that she's responsible for Loghain's actions and overinflating the importance of a minor incident I don't see any purpose to this argument.

At worst, she's responsible. She is the Queen. She had a duty to put her nation before anything else, and instead she chose to cowtow to her father's wishes.
At best, she's negligent. She had neither the power or the will to stop Loghain's tyranny before it led to civil war.

Again, pick one.

You keep trying to make the PC seem higly qualified as king/queen but that doesn't really fly. The PC is good as a military general not at preserving peace and dealing with politice. Untill Ferelden can recover the country needs a highly capable leader to keep the peace not go to war.

The PC may not be the greatest monarch ever, but they'd be better than Anora who proved that under pressure, she cannot rule effectively.
You continually put your fingers in your ears and go "la la la" when it comes to Anora. You call her a good Queen, yet you absolve her of all responsibility when things go wrong. Frankly it's beginning to sound like the "If only the Fuhrer knew" effect.

*beats Godwin with a baseball bat*

[Taleroth]

The Angry One wrote...

Taleroth wrote...

And let's not forget Arl Eamon's attempt to put Alistair on the throne.  Really?  The guy who's spent the past 2 years abdicating every single decision that passed by to a junior member.  Guy can't even go to see his sister without someone holding his hand.

Alistair's more compitent than he's given credit for. And this junior member thing is exageratted, Alistair's your senior by what, 6 months? That's nothing. Alistair recognizes your ability to lead and goes with it.
Rather than being a coward, I see it as someone who sees his own limitations and knows when to step down for the greater good.

A quality that Anora wholely lacks.

You've got a point.  After all, Alistair is giving up all decisions to me.

More people should think like him.

[Darth_Trethon]

The Angry One wrote...

Darth_Trethon wrote...

Now you have nothing but denial and going back to pinning Loghain's actions on her. Denial doesn't change facts. She did NOT fail at anything untill she was imprisoned after a military coup....that's not her fault regardless of how many ways you twist it. She only had one incident with the elves but nothing signifficat to threaten the peace and stability. No rule is ever flawless but she certainly has nothing that can question her competence nor any failure.....as you keep trying to pin others' actions on her'.

Will you listen to yourself? Pin others actions on her? SHE'S THE BLEEDING QUEEN.
She has executive responsibility for the actions of those under her and a duty to stop actions that harm the nation she rules.
And one incident with the elves? The entire condition of the Alienages grew more and more appalling under her.

Now unless you have something better that this silly argument that she's responsible for Loghain's actions and overinflating the importance of a minor incident I don't see any purpose to this argument.

At worst, she's responsible. She is the Queen. She had a duty to put her nation before anything else, and instead she chose to cowtow to her father's wishes.
At best, she's negligent. She had neither the power or the will to stop Loghain's tyranny before it led to civil war.

Again, pick one.

You keep trying to make the PC seem higly qualified as king/queen but that doesn't really fly. The PC is good as a military general not at preserving peace and dealing with politice. Untill Ferelden can recover the country needs a highly capable leader to keep the peace not go to war.

The PC may not be the greatest monarch ever, but they'd be better than Anora who proved that under pressure, she cannot rule effectively.
You continually put your fingers in your ears and go "la la la" when it comes to Anora. You call her a good Queen, yet you absolve her of all responsibility when things go wrong. Frankly it's beginning to sound like the "If only the Fuhrer knew" effect.

*beats Godwin with a baseball bat*

Queen is a word that is meaningless when you are imprisoned by force after all your troops are dead. What do you expect her to be god and single handedly fing an army loyal to her captors? Listen to the nonsense you are trying to pull. She did all she could as soon as she could and did a wonderfull job at regaining her rightfull place. NOBODY could have forseen Loghain turn traitor.....plus he was always with Cailan so if anyone at all Cailan should have seen it coming. But he was a national hero that has been the most loyal general for decades. Expecting Anora to be a mind reader is not reasonable either.

You say things like the PC may not be the best leader......but it's not a matter of minor failures it's a matter of highly likely disasters like throwing the country into civil war again and trying to rule with less than adequate experience to say the least.

You're the one that denies facts and have nothing in return. Your arguments for Anora's guilt aren't even remotely reasonable....you're expecting her to be god while Alistair's complete ineptitude is forgivable and you try to overinflate the PC's experience with politics. It's like trying to argue that pigs can fly if you staple pigeon wings to their backs.

[The Angry One]

Darth_Trethon wrote...

Queen is a word that is meaningless when you are imprisoned by force after all your troops are dead. What do you expect her to be god and single handedly fing an army loyal to her captors? Listen to the nonsense you are trying to pull. She did all she could as soon as she could and did a wonderfull job at regaining her rightfull place. NOBODY could have forseen Loghain turn traitor.....plus he was always with Cailan so if anyone at all Cailan should have seen it coming. But he was a national hero that has been the most loyal general for decades. Expecting Anora to be a mind reader is not reasonable either.

She was at the first Landsmeet. She could've slipped away to Teagan and the rest of the Bannorn and requested their support, as Queen.
The civil war would've turned into a one-sided deposition of Loghain's junta. Anora could've done this had she put her nation before daddy. She didn't.

You say things like the PC may not be the best leader......but it's not a matter of minor failures it's a matter of highly likely disasters like throwing the country into civil war again and trying to rule with less than adequate experience to say the least.

Better an inexperienced PC than a Queen who thinks only of herself.

You're the one that denies facts and have nothing in return. Your arguments for Anora's guilt aren't even remotely reasonable....you're expecting her to be god while Alistair's complete ineptitude is forgivable and you try to overinflate the PC's experience with politics. It's like trying to argue that pigs can fly if you staple pigeon wings to their backs.

You ignore the facts. Anora had multiple opportunities to turn the tide against Loghain's tyranny.
Instead she only took it when her personal position was threatened by Howe.

[kevinwastaken]

I'm surprised no one wants to put TeaGAAAAAAAAAAAAN forth for the throne. C'mon, the guy would have flying cars and underwater cities by the end of his reign.

[phordicus]

just give me the opportunity to either have sex with her or kill her.



or both.

[The Angry One]

kevinwastaken wrote...

I'm surprised no one wants to put TeaGAAAAAAAAAAAAN forth for the throne. C'mon, the guy would have flying cars and underwater cities by the end of his reign.

Mainly cause he marries some dirty orphan commoner instead of me. Why Teagan? Why?

[Asante81]

phordicus wrote...

just give me the opportunity to either have sex with her or kill her.

or both.

Do I want to know in which order you want to do "both"?

And yeah... watching Teagan marry that crying serving girl hurt...

[tmp7704]

The Angry One wrote...

Too little, too late. She should've done her upmost to prevent his illegal claim to the regency from the start, it was her duty as the reigning monarch to do so. Loghain had absolutely no justification for it, and doing it directly lead to civil war.

It's also her duty as the reigning monarch to try and protect her country from the Blight which is about to roll across it. And picking a fight with her own father over who gets to lead the troops to do that is hardly a way to achieve it.

Ironically enough this is one decision where she picks route that doesn't reinforce her own power (as it'd be the case if she denounced Loghain) i.e. doing something that's quite out of her claimed character and she still gets blasted for it. Tough crowd.

If you say so. Zathrian is no weak old man in a tent, he can handle himself and Mithra knows it. If the outsider claims to be a warden, might as well let Zathrian decide. If the outsider is persuasive or intimidating enough to not want to antagonise further, let him deal with them.

Sure, let's take intimidating or persuasive group of strangers straight to your leader because the stranger says so. If then they turn out to be liars and stab him in the eye, whoops, sorry old man, my bad call?

We don't need to beat around the bush here. The elves are acting plot-stupid and for the sake of the plot alone. You only need to look at the dwarves to see how it'd be handled by anyone with brains.

Uldred already controls the tower, and Greagor knows his current forces won't hold them forevere. He's desperate, so he decides to bet on you.

I see. So if there wasn't the treaties to prove you're in fact a Grey Warden the leader of templars would out of sheer desperation agree anyway to strike a deal with total strangers, a deal which from his viewpoint has no chance to work at best or make his situation even worse at worst.

And you say you dislike characters who get by thanks to nothing but plot devices. Har har.

They're there to follow you, not to question your orders. And they still owe you. So they can suck it up.

I'm afraid no. It's their call to decide when they gave you enough to repay your favour. Because only they know exactly how much that favour of yours was worth to them. And if you don't like their decision you can stomp your foot and pout and call them names but very little else.

[Darth_Trethon]

The Angry One wrote...

Darth_Trethon wrote...

Queen is a word that is meaningless when you are imprisoned by force after all your troops are dead. What do you expect her to be god and single handedly fing an army loyal to her captors? Listen to the nonsense you are trying to pull. She did all she could as soon as she could and did a wonderfull job at regaining her rightfull place. NOBODY could have forseen Loghain turn traitor.....plus he was always with Cailan so if anyone at all Cailan should have seen it coming. But he was a national hero that has been the most loyal general for decades. Expecting Anora to be a mind reader is not reasonable either.

She was at the first Landsmeet. She could've slipped away to Teagan and the rest of the Bannorn and requested their support, as Queen.
The civil war would've turned into a one-sided deposition of Loghain's junta. Anora could've done this had she put her nation before daddy. She didn't.

You say things like the PC may not be the best leader......but it's not a matter of minor failures it's a matter of highly likely disasters like throwing the country into civil war again and trying to rule with less than adequate experience to say the least.

Better an inexperienced PC than a Queen who thinks only of herself.

You're the one that denies facts and have nothing in return. Your arguments for Anora's guilt aren't even remotely reasonable....you're expecting her to be god while Alistair's complete ineptitude is forgivable and you try to overinflate the PC's experience with politics. It's like trying to argue that pigs can fly if you staple pigeon wings to their backs.

You ignore the facts. Anora had multiple opportunities to turn the tide against Loghain's tyranny.
Instead she only took it when her personal position was threatened by Howe.

They don't know who they're dealing with. Only when the PC shows loghain for what he is are they willing to act against him.....after the PC shows what loghain's lackey(Howe) did and the slavery do they change their minds. All that is optional and they all still support Loghain. She had no means to bring undeniable proof of anything to anyone as a prisoner. She needed someone else. Again she's not a god.

That's flawed thinking Anora has served her country well and only wants to be on the throne because she knows nobody else can take care of Ferelden propperly.

Anora had one opportunity to act and she did....when she asked the PC for help. Never before had she been able to act.

[BroBear Berbil]

The Angry One wrote...

She was at the first Landsmeet. She could've slipped away to Teagan and the rest of the Bannorn and requested their support, as Queen.
The civil war would've turned into a one-sided deposition of Loghain's junta. Anora could've done this had she put her nation before daddy. She didn't.

Why would she at that point in the story?

[Taleroth]

The Angry One wrote...

kevinwastaken wrote...

I'm surprised no one wants to put TeaGAAAAAAAAAAAAN forth for the throne. C'mon, the guy would have flying cars and underwater cities by the end of his reign.

Mainly cause he marries some dirty orphan commoner instead of me. Why Teagan? Why?

Asante81 wrote...

phordicus wrote...

just give me the opportunity to either have sex with her or kill her.

or both.

Do I want to know in which order you want to do "both"?

And yeah... watching Teagan marry that crying serving girl hurt...

There there, you two.  Teagan's a mean jerk.

If ya'll need someone's shoulder to cry on, I'm here for you.

[The Angry One]

tmp7704 wrote...

It's also her duty as the reigning monarch to try and protect her country from the Blight which is about to roll across it. And picking a fight with her own father over who gets to lead the troops to do that is hardly a way to achieve it.

Ironically enough this is one decision where she picks route that doesn't reinforce her own power (as it'd be the case if she denounced Loghain) i.e. doing something that's quite out of her claimed character and she still gets blasted for it. Tough crowd.

The fact remains Loghain's claim is illegal. He can lead troops all he wants, he's a Teryn, general and respected strategist.
This doesn't mean he gets to be Regent, especially when Loghain himself doesn't take the Blight seriously. "This is no true Blight, Anora. Only Cailan's vanity demanded it be so."

Sure, let's take intimidating or persuasive group of strangers straight to your leader because the stranger says so. If then they turn out to be liars and stab him in the eye, whoops, sorry old man, my bad call?

We don't need to beat around the bush here. The elves are acting plot-stupid and for the sake of the plot alone. You only need to look at the dwarves to see how it'd be handled by anyone with brains.

Again, Zathrian can handle himself. He can summon bloody trees to do his bidding. And the Dalish know that, he's the one who single-handedly saved Lanaya from a whole band of bandits.

I see. So if there wasn't the treaties to prove you're in fact a Grey Warden the leader of templars would out of sheer desperation agree anyway to strike a deal with total strangers, a deal which from his viewpoint has no chance to work at best or make his situation even worse at worst.

And you say you dislike characters who get by thanks to nothing but plot devices. Har har.

That's how desperation works, you know. You talk to him and convince him you're competent enough to handle it, he agrees and lets you in.. then locks the door behind you. Overly trusting? I think not.

I'm afraid no. It's their call to decide when they gave you enough to repay your favour. Because only they know exactly how much that favour of yours was worth to them. And if you don't like their decision you can stomp your foot and pout and call them names but very little else.

Owing you their very lives would sort of skew things in your favor.
Even the dwarven king would know better than to cross you right away, especially as for all he knows you have a Paragon on your side (yeah Branka wouldn't do ****, but FOR ALL HE KNOWS).

[The Angry One]

Darth_Trethon wrote...

They don't know who they're dealing with. Only when the PC shows loghain for what he is are they willing to act against him.....after the PC shows what loghain's lackey(Howe) did and the slavery do they change their minds. All that is optional and they all still support Loghain. She had no means to bring undeniable proof of anything to anyone as a prisoner. She needed someone else. Again she's not a god.

Half the Bannorn were already willing to fight Loghain solely because of his illegal claim. Hence the civil war.

That's flawed thinking Anora has served her country well and only wants to be on the throne because she knows nobody else can take care of Ferelden propperly.

This is conjecture based on nothing.

Anora had one opportunity to act and she did....when she asked the PC for help. Never before had she been able to act.

Did you just skip the whole first landsmeet scnene?

[The Angry One]

OnionXI wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

She was at the first Landsmeet. She could've slipped away to Teagan and the rest of the Bannorn and requested their support, as Queen.
The civil war would've turned into a one-sided deposition of Loghain's junta. Anora could've done this had she put her nation before daddy. She didn't.

Why would she at that point in the story?

Because Loghain had illegally deposed her, and the Bannorn clearly didn't like it.
Loghain had no right to the Regency, and she should've told him that she was the sole ruler and it would remain that way, if he refused then she should've gone to the Bannorn.

[Quold]

I was disappointed that, as a Dwarf Noble, at the assembly with everyone watching and the Shaper asks "Who does the Paragon support as King" that I didn't get an option to plop the crown on my OWN head! Just to see the look on my foul brother's face would have been worth it!

Never mind that the assemby exiled me, apparently the word or vote of a Paragon superceeds even the assembly itself!



"Ok now that I am king, Harrow ole buddy, You run the place, I have a Blight to stop.. keep my seat warm until I return... oh and nail my dispicable Brother's carcass to the front gates"

[The Angry One]

Taleroth wrote...

There there, you two.  Teagan's a mean jerk.

If ya'll need someone's shoulder to cry on, I'm here for you.

What! How dare you insult Teagan! *stab*

[Taleroth]

The Angry One wrote...

Taleroth wrote...

There there, you two.  Teagan's a mean jerk.

If ya'll need someone's shoulder to cry on, I'm here for you.

What! How dare you insult Teagan! *stab*

But!  He wronged you by marrying that tramp!

*bleeds*

Modifié par Taleroth, 09 décembre 2009 - 10:41 .

[Asante81]

yeah, but we don't want anyone to actually SAY it

but thank you for that completely... unselfish... offer... You just wanted some girls holding tight onto you, didn't you?

[Ulyn]

It's a little unfair to saddle Anora with "responsibility" for everything Logain did if the purpose is analytical rather than polemic.  

Her father / national hero / chief-general-going-on-generalissimo launched an astoundingly unexpected and initially secret coup, killing one of his best friend's sons and attempting to kill the other.   We don't actually get to see the mechanics of the truth filtering out; we do rapidly see people disagreeing with Logain's story - Ser Bryant, Ser Perth, and Bann Teagan or Gregoire.   But the interactive NPCs kind of have to be either pro-Warden or neutral, or they'd be bad interactive NPCs.   A lot of non-interactive NPCs are quite vocal about buying into Logains version.  If half of Fereldan believes Logain, can't Anora be cut some slack in that respect?

And for all that she's touted as an effective monarch, she was a queen by marriage, focusing on administrative affairs; in the face of Logain's premeditated assumption of the regency, it isn't like she could snap her fingers and have physical force to challenge her father and Howe, even when she came to disbelieve him about Ostagar.

Her manner in the game isn't especially endearing, and her wish to have Alistair executed seemed downright bloodthirsty in light of what Alistair'd already done for Fereldan.  I haven't tested whether she always requests that in situations where she's made Queen; her behavior does seem to be modified by whether or not Alistair repeatedly calls for Logain's death - ie, if you immediately agree with Riordan about sparing him, there's 1 additional outburst from Alistair, and I think that can deep-six an arranged marriage with Anora backing out.  

(I'm not positive about t hat last bit; it's a bit laborious to test out all of the "Alistair and Anora behavior switches" because you have to at least fight Logaine each time, or even reload to the Eamon estate to change the pre-landsmeet arrangements.)

All we have to evaluate her "realizing this and trying to do something" ability with is 2 cutscenes, the Landsmeet one and the one where she confronts his father about Ostagar.  

At any rate; I don't have anything against Anora.  I actually was initially furious with my very first playthrough when she switched sides at the Ser Cauthrine cutscene, but after about 2 seconds of thought I realized I'd made a complete mess of the situation by demanding she break openly with Logain in front of a "hopelessly" powerful force of his men.  After that I kind of got the picture; she's the kind of Dragon Age character who stabs Ser Jory.  "Do what must be done," and all that.

[Taleroth]

Asante81 wrote...

yeah, but we don't want anyone to actually SAY it
but thank you for that completely... unselfish... offer... You just wanted some girls holding tight onto you, didn't you?

I'm just expressing my sensitive, thoughtful, and caring side!

Do you have a bandage?  I seem to be bleeding.